what works with infusions and what doesnt?

[newguydude1]

artificers are not spellcasters.
infusions function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells.

under transparency, psionic powers also function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells.
and things that affect spells don't affect powers even under transparency.

so by this logic anything that affects spells doesn't affect infusions.
infusions are also specifically called out to not be spells and you cant use them for any prerequisites including creating scrolls.

on the other hand, unlike psionics, infusions are magical.
there is no such thing as "infusion components". artificers use arcane spell components. a lot of their infusions are also spells as well like light and summon marked homunculus.
metamagic works on infusions, but this is a special exception.

but the errata, the original text says "Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply item creation feats and metamagic feats to his infusions."
and the errata changed it to "Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply metamagic feats he knows to his infusions."
they removed item creation feats so it looks like you cant make scrolls of infusions.

also you don't cast infusions. you cast spells, and you imbue infusions.



so... yeah i dont know whats what.

1. can you make scrolls and wands of infusions?
2. do feats like eschew materials work with infusions?
3. do feats like practiced spellcaster work with artificers?

my table is a raw table so raw only please. if you start talking about homebrew or house rule i wont respond.

[Kayblis]

1. No, you can't make traditional magic items of those. However, there's an Eberron item called Minor Schema that can hold either a spell or an infusion, and those are specially priced items that work 1/day.
2. No, only spells.
3. No.

[newguydude1]

1. No, you can't make traditional magic items of those. However, there's an Eberron item called Minor Schema that can hold either a spell or an infusion, and those are specially priced items that work 1/day.
2. No, only spells.
3. No.

are you sure? i seen a lot of playgrounders say differently.

does anyone else have an opinion? kayblis is right? optional spell components and eschew materials dont work with infusions? absolutely sure?

if no one else has an opposing opinion then i will believe kayblis and whenever the subject comes up in the playground im gonna repeat this.

[Psyren]

does anyone else have an opinion? kayblis is right? optional spell components and eschew materials dont work with infusions? absolutely sure?

if no one else has an opposing opinion then i will believe kayblis and whenever the subject comes up in the playground im gonna repeat this.

The only material components infusions get are costly, so Eschew Materials wouldn't do anything even if it did work. Either the infusion is free or it costs gold, there is no in-between where you need a component pouch for the feat to get rid of.

Infusions aren't spells, so optional spell components won't do anything either.

[newguydude1]

The only material components infusions get are costly

where does it say that? class description only says material component not costly material component, and infusions only stuff like personal weapon augmentation has material components.

[Psyren]

where does it say that? class description only says material component not costly material component, and infusions only stuff like personal weapon augmentation has material components.


Eschew Materials [General]

Benefit
You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

Every infusion either has a material component that costs more than 1 gp (e.g. Lessor Armor Enhancement, Identify, Suppress Requirement), or it has no material component at all (Light, Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength etc.) Therefore Eschew Materials doesn't do anything to any of them.

[newguydude1]

Every infusion either has a material component that costs more than 1 gp (e.g. Lessor Armor Enhancement, Identify, Suppress Requirement), or it has no material component at all (Light, Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength etc.) Therefore Eschew Materials doesn't do anything to any of them.

In cases where an infusion duplicates a spell that requires either a material component or a divine focus, or requires either an arcane focus or a divine focus, the artificer uses the arcane material component or arcane focus.


Weapon Augmentation, Personal
(Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 117)
...
Material Component: A patch of rabbit's fur.


Bull's Strength
...
Arcane Material Component: A few hairs, or a pinch of dung, from a bull.

i dont understand what you are saying. could you be a little more explicit? how did you arrive at the conclusion that artificers dont need to provide bull hair or rabbit fur to imbue bulls strength or personal weapon augmentation?

if eschew material did work with infusions it would get rid of rabbit fur and bull hair. but you are saying i dont need eschew materials cause infusions already dont use material components. but where does it say infusions dont use material components?

[Psyren]

i dont understand what you are saying. could you be a little more explicit? how did you arrive at the conclusion that artificers dont need to provide bull hair or rabbit fur to imbue bulls strength or personal weapon augmentation?

if eschew material did work with infusions it would get rid of rabbit fur and bull hair. but you are saying i dont need eschew materials cause infusions already dont use material components. but where does it say infusions dont use material components?

Ah got it, I missed that line (the infusions themselves don't have a line for low-cost components) - but why would you waste a feat when you can just carry a pouch?

[newguydude1]

Ah got it, I missed that line (the infusions themselves don't have a line for low-cost components) - but why would you waste a feat when you can just carry a pouch?

pouch breaks immersion. you just magically have a piece of armor that a high level fighter wore. or a piece of an iron golem. i dont like it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

pouch breaks immersion. you just magically have a piece of armor that a high level fighter wore. or a piece of an iron golem. i dont like it.

Eh, it's not so unbelievable if you look at it a certain way. Remember that it's an abstraction. The pouch should only have the components for the spells -you- know in it; not every conceivable spell component ever, no matter what ridiculous arguments theory crafters will make. It's not magical itself, after all.

If you don't know heroics, there's no reason a broken buckle from a level 15 fighter's armor should be in there. If you don't try to draw it even though you don't know the spell then does it matter that the rules say you could? Would you object to a GM saying that the pouch only contains the components and foci for spells you actually know? I know I certainly wouldn't.

[Psyren]

pouch breaks immersion. you just magically have a piece of armor that a high level fighter wore. or a piece of an iron golem. i dont like it.

I mean, people spend feats on all kinds of unnecessary stuff - if you don't like the pouch go for it :smalltongue: Artificers get plenty of feats after all.

[newguydude1]

Eh, it's not so unbelievable if you look at it a certain way. Remember that it's an abstraction. The pouch should only have the components for the spells -you- know in it; not every conceivable spell component ever, no matter what ridiculous arguments theory crafters will make. It's not magical itself, after all.

If you don't know heroics, there's no reason a broken buckle from a level 15 fighter's armor should be in there. If you don't try to draw it even though you don't know the spell then does it matter that the rules say you could? Would you object to a GM saying that the pouch only contains the components and foci for spells you actually know? I know I certainly wouldn't.

how is a campaign that ends at 10th level is gonna have a village that has an endless amount of pieces of a 15 fighter armor for me to spam heroics forever with?

i just dont like it. it breaks immersion for me to be able to cast heroics 100 times in an extremely rural area cause i bought a pouch one time a thousand spell castings ago.


I mean, people spend feats on all kinds of unnecessary stuff - if you don't like the pouch go for it :smalltongue: Artificers get plenty of feats after all.

but eschew materials doesnt work with infusions according to kayblis. so it wont do anything for me. i still have to get rabbit fur somehow if i want to bring my two handed weapons to life.

does eschew materials work with scroll crafting? as a wizard crafter or as an artificer crafter. if it at least lets me ignore material components for crafting scrolls i might pick it up.

[Psyren]

how is a campaign that ends at 10th level is gonna have a village that has an endless amount of pieces of a 15 fighter armor for me to spam heroics forever with?

i just dont like it. it breaks immersion for me to be able to cast heroics 100 times in an extremely rural area cause i bought a pouch one time a thousand spell castings ago.
...
but eschew materials doesnt work with infusions according to kayblis. so it wont do anything for me. i still have to get rabbit fur somehow if i want to bring my two handed weapons to life.


The idea is that you refill the pouch whenever you get downtime or something. If that doesn't work for you, just buy a bunch of them, or a new one every X castings; they're 5gp each.

Besides, immersion? Aren't you the guy who plays at the "RAW or die" table per your disclaimers? :smalltongue:
RAW is that the pouch has what you need if the cost is negligble, you should be all for that.


does eschew materials work with scroll crafting? as a wizard crafter or as an artificer crafter. if it at least lets me ignore material components for crafting scrolls i might pick it up.

As written, someone crafting a scroll "must provide any material component or focus the spell requires." Furthermore, the "material component is consumed when she begins writing....The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)" At no point do you actually cast the spell, but the material components are consumed anyway, so Eschew Materials doesn't help.

Artificers get to skip all the spell parts of that with their "Item Creation (Ex)" ability, but it doesn't say anything about the component parts - so as written, the component must be provided, and it will get consumed as soon as the artificer begins writing.

[newguydude1]

Besides, immersion? Aren't you the guy who plays at the "RAW or die" table per your disclaimers? :smalltongue:
RAW is that the pouch has what you need if the cost is negligble, you should be all for that.

i am raw or die. but if i dont like raw i dont do it. i dont ask a dm to be lenient. i dont ask a dm for house rules just for me. i just dont do it. i find something else. i dont like spell component pouch. so if artificer needs spell component pouch no matter what then i just dont play artificer. i dont ask a dm to make a homebrew feat or house rule eschew materials for me.

i dont use improved familiar to get mirror mephit because i dont know how to cheat that 100gp familiar ritual material component cost and the ritual components are so vague you can only source them from a shop and not yourself from the wild.


As written, someone crafting a scroll "must provide any material component or focus the spell requires." Furthermore, the "material component is consumed when she begins writing....The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)" At no point do you actually cast the spell, but the material components are consumed anyway, so Eschew Materials doesn't help.

Artificers get to skip all the spell parts of that with their "Item Creation (Ex)" ability, but it doesn't say anything about the component parts - so as written, the component must be provided, and it will get consumed as soon as the artificer begins writing.

ok thats the end of artificer for me. minor creation may cheat scroll components but not spell components so dipping psion wont help either so yeah. spellstoring item emulating summon component doesnt work either because aritficers dont know any spells and that spell can only create components for spells you know.

[Kelb_Panthera]

how is a campaign that ends at 10th level is gonna have a village that has an endless amount of pieces of a 15 fighter armor for me to spam heroics forever with?



i just dont like it. it breaks immersion for me to be able to cast heroics 100 times in an extremely rural area cause i bought a pouch one time a thousand spell castings ago.

What on earth is happening in your campaigns that you cast heroics (or any other single spell) 100 times?

13-1/3 encounters for 7 levels makes 93 encounters between when you can cast the spell and the end of that hypothetical campaign if you never encounter anything with an EL higher than the party's level. If you cast it in -every- encounter you won't make 100 castings and you're not gonna cast it in each and every encounter. Maybe, just maybe you cast it 100 times in a 1-20 campaign. In the latter, you just might cast 1000 spells total, nevermind any single spell.

Then there's the village premise. You can have an entire campaign take place in one settlement but it's very unlikely that settlement will be a mere village. If it's all supposed to be said and done by level 10, it's more likely to be a large town or small city, anywhere from 2000 to 12000 people. Much more likely, you'll pass from settlement to settlement or the campaign will center around one of the largest settlements in the region like a Sharn or Waterdeep.

There are gonna be smiths amongst all those people in those settlements that'd be all to happy to part with damaged armor bits for a few copper. Magical suppliers make it part of their business, if they're familiar with the heroics spell, to gather any such discard from high level fighters that get their armor repaired* and divide that into the smallest usable portions they can to then sell to adventuring mages for a small profit. How big is usable? Who knows. The spell doesn't give a specific volume. Small enough that any mage who learns heroics can get a supply of them in literally any settlement unless the GM expressly forbids it, despite the relative rarity of level 15+ fighters.

*while the rules abstraction does not require armor or weapons to be maintained, there's no reason to believe they needn't be in the game world. It's no different from the fact the rules never mention the need for characters to make use of the privy.