D&D 5e Fun Facts

[ForeverFlame]

What are some interesting things you've found in D&D 5e? Not just from the PHB, just things that make you go "Huh. Neat."
For example, I have two:

Eldritch Blast can be Twin Spelled, but only at exactly 4th level, as you need either Sorcerer 4 (for the Magic Initiate feat), or Sorcerer 3, Warlock 1 (for Eldritch Blast and Metamagic), but once you become 5th level, Eldritch Blast can hit two enemies and thus can’t be Twin Spelled.
Each half-caster class corresponds to a set of ability scores, one mental and one physical: Paladin is Strength/Charisma, Ranger is Dexterity/Wisdom, and Artificer is Constitution/Intelligence.

[Emongnome777]

Regarding the half-casters, paladins and artificers gain an additional spell to prepare at even levels but rangers gain a spell known at odd levels. For all 3, their spell slots increase at odd levels only. Just seems a little weird even if they “know” spells differently.

[ForeverFlame]

Regarding the half-casters, paladins and artificers gain an additional spell to prepare at even levels but rangers gain a spell known at odd levels. For all 3, their spell slots increase at odd levels only. Just seems a little weird even if they “know” spells differently.
Additionally, artificers are the only half-casters with cantrips, and paladins are the only half-casters that can use their spell slots for something other than spells.

[Dork_Forge]

Additionally, artificers are the only half-casters with cantrips, and paladins are the only half-casters that can use their spell slots for something other than spells.

This isn't actually true, Artificers get additional uses for their spells from their subclass (Battle Smith's bring their SD back to life, Alchemists get more Elixirs and Artillerists get more uses of their turrets).

Whilst Paladin and Ranger are both half casters it looks like WoTC made Artificers more like their own thing: 3/4 casters. They get cantrips and their spellcasting trait at first level, and they also round up not down when multicassing for slots.

I guess my fun fact is that you can build a Dexadin no problem if you single class and dump Strenght, but the moment you want to dip into anything else you need get more buff, for appearances I guess?

[heavyfuel]

Each half-caster class corresponds to a set of ability scores, one mental and one physical: Paladin is Strength/Charisma, Ranger is Dexterity/Wisdom, and Artificer is Constitution/Intelligence.


This looks like a stretch. Dex Paladins are somewhat common and the Artificer doesn't benefit from Con any more than any other spellcasting class.

My contribution to the list is that nat 20s and nat 1s for saving throws don't mean automatic success/failure. This usualy doesn't matter due to bounded accuracy, but there are some cases were it does. This came up in the Tarrasque thread I created on how the Tarrasque can Dash infinitely even if Chase rules are in play. With a Constitution save of +10, it always makes the DC 10 check.

[Paeleus]

Additionally, artificers are the only half-casters with cantrips, and paladins are the only half-casters that can use their spell slots for something other than spells.

Also, Rangers can use their spell slots for something other than spells. I believe (but cant confirm, afb) it is the Primeval Awareness class feature.

[Pex]

You can use Hex spell strategically for the ability score disadvantage. I've targeted wisdom to give disadvantage on Perception against the party we really, really needed to be stealthy. Before combat knowing there is likely to be one Hex for dexterity to give disadvantage on initiative.

Bane spell. Seriously. I was not fond of it upon first read. It took a few other players using it for me to catch on how wonderful it is. Playing a cleric in a game I use it regularly. Last session I used it against a Hydra. I used it for the -1d4 against all its attacks. Worked even better for the -1d4 to the saving throws the party was throwing at it. It's one my favorite spells now.

[heavyfuel]

You can use Hex spell strategically for the ability score disadvantage. I've targeted wisdom to give disadvantage on Perception against the party we really, really needed to be stealthy. Before combat knowing there is likely to be one Hex for dexterity to give disadvantage on initiative.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this works. Targeting someone with a spell should initiate combat, so you're no longer stealthy and everybody rolls initiative before you finish casting, so no penalty there.

[Man_Over_Game]

Rogue Sneak Attack can work with Magic Stone, but only if you use a Sling. This lowers the range of the shots to your sling's distance (60 to 30) as you're using the stones for ammunition, which is explicitly stated is an option by the Magic Stone spell.

Darts are a ranged weapon that can use Strength. This means you can use Strength with things that would normally only work with ranged weapons, like the Sharpshooter Feat.

[Nidgit]

Eldritch Blast can be Twin Spelled, but only at exactly 4th level, as you need either Sorcerer 4 (for the Magic Initiate feat), or Sorcerer 3, Warlock 1 (for Eldritch Blast and Metamagic), but once you become 5th level, Eldritch Blast can hit two enemies and thus can’t be Twin Spelled.

This isn't strictly true, as a vHuman Sorcerer with Magic Initiate could Twin Eldritch Blast at 3rd level. Interesting point though!

[Pex]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this works. Targeting someone with a spell should initiate combat, so you're no longer stealthy and everybody rolls initiative before you finish casting, so no penalty there.

Since when are you not allowed to cast spells out of combat?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

What are some interesting things you've found in D&D 5e? Not just from the PHB, just things that make you go "Huh. Neat."
For example, I have two:

Eldritch Blast can be Twin Spelled, but only at exactly 4th level, as you need either Sorcerer 4 (for the Magic Initiate feat), or Sorcerer 3, Warlock 1 (for Eldritch Blast and Metamagic), but once you become 5th level, Eldritch Blast can hit two enemies and thus can’t be Twin Spelled.
Each half-caster class corresponds to a set of ability scores, one mental and one physical: Paladin is Strength/Charisma, Ranger is Dexterity/Wisdom, and Artificer is Constitution/Intelligence.



Variant Human Sorcerer with Eldritch Blast via a feat gets you it at 3rd.

Second one ain't much of a fact.

Fun Fact: A lot of the ideologies and mechanics of 5e are from 4e, which in turn can be found in 3e's Unearthed Arcana.

+ Action Points (inspiration)
+ At-Will, Encounter, Daily spells
+ Rituals (incantations)
+ Skill system w/o ranks
+ Non-AC/Non-Saving throw defenses

[Satori01]

This came up in the Tarrasque thread I created on how the Tarrasque can Dash infinitely even if Chase rules are in play. With a Constitution save of +10, it always makes the DC 10 check.

LOL, I had never noticed that.

The Chase rules are rarely dusted off, and used in my experience, but the idea of a party trying to flee from an inexplicably fast and indefatigable Tarrasque is too cool to pass up.

I predict an Infernal Machine and a Tarrasque chase sequence in my group’s near future...

[JackPhoenix]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this works. Targeting someone with a spell should initiate combat, so you're no longer stealthy and everybody rolls initiative before you finish casting, so no penalty there.

You can cast Hex on a chicken half-a-hour (or half-a-day at higher levels) before you expect to encounter any enemy, kill the chicken, keep concentrating, and just switch the Hex to a new target when you finally see the it, no spellcasting or anything that would break stealth needed.

[Lille]

+ Action Points (inspiration)

If you're equating 4E's Action Points to 5E's Inspiration, they really aren't equivalent. Action Points have almost nothing in common with Inspiration, besides that they're points you spend to get effects. A Fighter's Action Surge, on the other hand, is effectively the same as Action Points, and it's also named after a 4E feat that improves their effect.


+ Non-AC/Non-Saving throw defenses

Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't think of any Non-AC/Saves defenses in 5E. Are there any?

[BurgerBeast]

Trinket 34 is a 9-volt battery. I can’t remember where I heard this - I believe it was from someone on this forum - but it appears to be true.

[Darc_Vader]

The Contagion spell can give the target disadvantage on any type of Saving Throw except Charisma; the Charisma option only gives disadvantage to Charisma Checks and Vulnerability to all Damage

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will bring one back from the dead.

As wild shaped make it so the druid is no longer capable of casting spells if you go into a barbarian rage with a concentration spell he will not lose the spell as rage only make you unable to cast and concentrate if you can cast spells.

(RAW is funny).


The Contagion spell can give the target disadvantage on any type of Saving Throw except Charisma; the Charisma option only gives disadvantage to Charisma Checks and Vulnerability to all Damage

Wow I never noticed it.

[Yakmala]

Swift Quiver, found only on the Ranger spell list, and one of their class defining spells, can be selected at Ranger level 17...

...Or you can be a Bard and pick it up at Level 10.

[Christew]

This looks like a stretch. Dex Paladins are somewhat common and the Artificer doesn't benefit from Con any more than any other spellcasting class.
In defense of an interesting observation, dndbeyond lists primary stats as Paladin: STR/CHA, Ranger: DEX/WIS, and ...

Artificer: INT. But the saves are CON/INT! Which kind of highlights Artificer being just a little different.

Huh.

[Azuresun]

If you're looking for something distinct to fill an unused language slot, then Hook Horrors, Vegepygmies, Umber Hulks, Giant Eagles, Giant Owls and Giant Elk all have their own unique languages.

[Avista]

A cat and a spider are both classified as 'tiny beast'.

There is nothing in the rulebook that disallows the use of 'Find Familiar' to summon a spider the size of a cat.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If you're equating 4E's Action Points to 5E's Inspiration, they really aren't equivalent. Action Points have almost nothing in common with Inspiration, besides that they're points you spend to get effects. A Fighter's Action Surge, on the other hand, is effectively the same as Action Points, and it's also named after a 4E feat that improves their effect.



Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't think of any Non-AC/Saves defenses in 5E. Are there any?

Inspiration gives you an additional chance to succeed at something, just like how action points do. They just simplified action points.

To the second point, Ability Checks! To defend against certain spells you make an ability check. Not a saving throw, AC has nothing to do with it.

I mean, they should be saving throws because a check and a save is like the same thing... But nah.

Color Spray "targets" HD (this is from 3e), Contests (grapple) target an ability check (used to be attack rolls versus AC), and spells that require an ability check (not a save) all are things that fall under Non AC/Saves. They circumvent the AC/Save system.

[Zhorn]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this works. Targeting someone with a spell should initiate combat, so you're no longer stealthy and everybody rolls initiative before you finish casting, so no penalty there.
Being that there are spells that specify the target will know you cast the spell on them, I think we can take that to meaning unless the target is experiencing an active sensation of the spell (such as taking damage, or receiving a message/sending) then the spell is unnoticed. Otherwise why specify particular spells as making the target aware of being affected.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Being that there are spells that specify the target will know you cast the spell on them, I think we can take that to meaning unless the target is experiencing an active sensation of the spell (such as taking damage, or receiving a message/sending) then the spell is unnoticed. Otherwise why specify particular spells as making the target aware of being affected.

5e was about 2 years away from being done and they really needed a few more passes of a competent editor.

[Bobthewizard]

Since when are you not allowed to cast spells out of combat?

You can cast spells out of combat, but not if someone might want to stop you from casting it. You are no longer hidden when you start to cast a spell. So if they can see you, and the spell has any verbal or somatic components, then that should start combat and everyone should roll initiative. If they beat yours, they get to go before you cast the spell. It's part of why subtle is such a great metamagic.

As a player, if you are talking to an evil wizard, they shouldn't be able to just cast charm person on you. The DM should say, "you see him start to cast a spell, roll initiative."

Same with attacks. You can't just say "I attack" before combat without expecting to roll initiative. Even if you are a longbow sharpshooter, hidden from 600 yards, attacking with surprise, you should roll initiative before the attack. Because if they beat yours, they can use reactions in the surprise round. If they don't, they can't.


Being that there are spells that specify the target will know you cast the spell on them, I think we can take that to meaning unless the target is experiencing an active sensation of the spell (such as taking damage, or receiving a message/sending) then the spell is unnoticed. Otherwise why specify particular spells as making the target aware of being affected.

You would normally still see them casting the spell. You might not know the effect of the spell or even if you were the target unless it's obvious or the spell describes it, but seeing them use spell components would alert you and you would roll initiative. Again, unless they have subtle metamagic.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You can cast spells out of combat, but not if someone might want to stop you from casting it. You are no longer hidden when you start to cast a spell. So if they can see you, and the spell has any verbal or somatic components, then that should start combat and everyone should roll initiative. If they beat yours, they get to go before you cast the spell. It's part of why subtle is such a great meta magic.

As a player, if you are talking to an evil wizard, they shouldn't be able to just cast charm person on you. The DM should say, "you see him start to cast a spell, roll initiative."

Same with attacks. You can't just say "I attack" before combat without expecting to roll initiative. Even if you are a longbow sharpshooter, hidden from 600 yards, attacking with surprise, you should roll initiative before the attack. Because if they beat yours, they can use reactions in the surprise round. If they don't, they can't.


Yup.

Hostile action or even intent causes initiative to happen. The books, IIRC, even state that just seeing someone hostile would be enough.

[Bobthewizard]

If you're looking for something distinct to fill an unused language slot, then Hook Horrors, Vegepygmies, Umber Hulks, Giant Eagles, Giant Owls and Giant Elk all have their own unique languages.


A cat and a spider are both classified as 'tiny beast'.

There is nothing in the rulebook that disallows the use of 'Find Familiar' to summon a spider the size of a cat.


Darts are a ranged weapon that can use Strength. This means you can use Strength with things that would normally only work with ranged weapons, like the Sharpshooter Feat.

I love all of these. Very interesting.

[BurgerBeast]

Being that there are spells that specify the target will know you cast the spell on them, I think we can take that to meaning unless the target is experiencing an active sensation of the spell (such as taking damage, or receiving a message/sending) then the spell is unnoticed. Otherwise why specify particular spells as making the target aware of being affected.

Because, in the case of someone who sees a spell being cast at him, he can succeed or fail on the save. Does he know if he succeeded or failed? - it answers this question.

Also, because if you know you’ve been the target of a spell such as hunter’s mark, do you know you’re affected by a spell, or do you know that it is specifically hunter’s mark? - it answers this question.

[Mr Adventurer]

A cat and a spider are both classified as 'tiny beast'.

There is nothing in the rulebook that disallows the use of 'Find Familiar' to summon a spider the size of a cat.

Yes, this is the default in fact, I would think: familiar spiders are the Tiny creatures with listed statistics. I wouldn't say the spell summons any other kind of spider.

[heavyfuel]

Since when are you not allowed to cast spells out of combat?

It seems targets no longer instantly notice spells targeting their mind, so you'd be correct. I think you still need some way to dismiss the V component, otherwise you still ruin stealth.


In defense of an interesting observation, dndbeyond lists primary stats as Paladin: STR/CHA, Ranger: DEX/WIS, and ...

Artificer: INT. But the saves are CON/INT! Which kind of highlights Artificer being just a little different.

Huh.

Saying D&DBeyond lists these as the primary abilities is an even bigger stretch. Same for the saves. Ranger gets Str and Dex, Pally gets Wis and Cha.

[Man_Over_Game]

s a Transmutation Wizard, you can change wood into stone, or vice-versa.

This would allow you to make unique sculptures that would otherwise be impossible to make.




You could make permanent housing with use of Wall of Stone, as you form the walls into sheets as you create the spell.



You can enchant several rocks as divination decoys by using Magic Aura on them, and then deactivating them by covering them in lead.

You can create a magical lantern that dispels most Darkness with a level 3 Continual Flame, as Darkness is dispelled by any light spell that is past level 2. Sell the lantern for 100 gold, and now you have less Underdark problems AND a profit!

I did forget to mention it earlier, but the Magic Stone + Sling combo is one of the only ways a Rogue can Sneak Attack with Wisdom as the primary stat. The other is with Shillelagh.

[Amechra]

If you're looking for something distinct to fill an unused language slot, then Hook Horrors, Vegepygmies, Umber Hulks, Giant Eagles, Giant Owls and Giant Elk all have their own unique languages.

Giant Elk is a noble and elegant language. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20PET6-Hr_c)

[Lupine]

Giant Elk is a noble and elegant language. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20PET6-Hr_c)

I hate that so much.

[JackPhoenix]

I did forget to mention it earlier, but the Magic Stone + Sling combo is one of the only ways a Rogue can Sneak Attack with Wisdom as the primary stat. The other is with Shillelagh.

How are you getting a sneak attack with Shillelagh? Neither club or quarterstaff is ranged or finesse weapon.

[Man_Over_Game]

How are you getting a sneak attack with Shillelagh? Neither club or quarterstaff is ranged or finesse weapon.

I thought that the inquisitive Rogue bypasses those limitations, but I could be wrong.

[Dork_Forge]

I thought that the inquisitive Rogue bypasses those limitations, but I could be wrong.

The Inquisitive allows you to Sneak if you don't have advantage (so long as you don't have disadvantage and succeed you contested check).

[JackPhoenix]

I thought that the inquisitive Rogue bypasses those limitations, but I could be wrong.

It doesn't remove the weapon limitations, but like Swashbuckler, allows you to make a Sneak Attack if you don't have advantage or an ally next to the target (with different limitations then Swashbuckler)

[Zhorn]

5e was about 2 years away from being done and they really needed a few more passes of a competent editor.
In some aspects; yes. This though I don't think is one of those cases.

You would normally still see them casting the spell. You might not know the effect of the spell or even if you were the target unless it's obvious or the spell describes it, but seeing them use spell components would alert you and you would roll initiative. Again, unless they have subtle metamagic.

Because, in the case of someone who sees a spell being cast at him, he can succeed or fail on the save. Does he know if he succeeded or failed? - it answers this question.

Also, because if you know you’ve been the target of a spell such as hunter’s mark, do you know you’re affected by a spell, or do you know that it is specifically hunter’s mark? - it answers this question.
I don't mean in terms of knowing if a spell was attempted at all, I mean in terms of the target specifically knowing they were subject of a spell's effect.
You see someone pull a doodad out of their pocket, mutter something, and make a gesture. If you understand something about spell craft that should be enough to alert you to knowing they might have been casting a spell. React to that as makes sense for the situation.
BUT; if you didn't take any damage (eg: get struck by a firebolt erupting from that person's hand) you could possibly have no indication of any magical effect being placed on you.


Targets
Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.

In the particular case of this discussion; Hex doesn't cause damage on the casting of the spell and the text doesn't indicate some flashy component of the spell taking effect to draw attention to a successful cast, nor does it specify the target is aware of the Hex being placed on them.

[Man_Over_Game]

Jump bonuses are multiplicative.

So the Jump spell + Step of the Wind = x6 jump distance.

Little things like that is why Druid/Monk is one of my favorite multiclasses.

Oddly enough, while Mirror Image does not count as a "miss" for the sake of Drunken Master's redirect feature, it DOES count as attacking something that's not you for the sake of Sentinel. So I guess Swashbuckler/Sorcerer is now a thing.

In a pinch, Sentinel can be a replacement for Mounted Combatant, if you don't like your horse all too much.

While we're on the topic of Opportunity Attacks and mounts, controlled mounts, like horses, can technically make a valid Opportunity Attack as normal while you ride them, as they are only limited on what Actions they can take.

[Satori01]

You can cast Hex on a chicken half-a-hour (or half-a-day at higher levels) before you expect to encounter any enemy, kill the chicken, keep concentrating, and just switch the Hex to a new target when you finally see the it, no spellcasting or anything that would break stealth needed.


Uggh...has anyone raised chickens before?

Chickens are not stealthy. Congratulations, you now have Disadvantage on Stealth rolls from chicken squawks, and fowl odors.

Chickens are not clean. Congratulations, you now have Disadvantage on Persuasion checks with creatures that might look askance at persons covered in bird droppings.

Chickens are also living creatures. Congratulations, you are now walking past the trailhead on the Path of Evil.

Grabbing a living thing, putting said living thing into environments detrimental to it’s wellbeing, and then slaughtering said living thing just because you can, and because it benefits you, is selfish, and evil.

Evil starts when you look at something and think:

“Well it is only a......Chicken....or a Woman...or a slave...or someone different from me”..........And Then Just Do What You Want to Them.

Have some ethics and ethical imagination, by golly!

[Pex]

It seems targets no longer instantly notice spells targeting their mind, so you'd be correct. I think you still need some way to dismiss the V component, otherwise you still ruin stealth.



Hex has a 90 ft range.

[Bobthewizard]

I don't mean in terms of knowing if a spell was attempted at all, I mean in terms of the target specifically knowing they were subject of a spell's effect.

I thought we were talking about casting a spell on someone without having to roll for initiative. My point was just that "knowing if a spell was attempted at all" is enough to roll initiative.

[Darc_Vader]

I thought we were talking about casting a spell on someone without having to roll for initiative. My point was just that "knowing if a spell was attempted at all" is enough to roll initiative.

If the other person/creature is already hostile and prepared for a fight maybe, but I don’t see why casting something like Detect Thoughts around people who aren’t already wary would cause them to suddenly attack. That also nerfs Charm Person into the ground, since practically anyone you would have reason to use it against now has advantage on the save for free.

[Necroanswer]

Uggh...has anyone raised chickens before?

Chickens are also living creatures. Congratulations, you are now walking past the trailhead on the Path of Evil.

Grabbing a living thing, putting said living thing into environments detrimental to it’s wellbeing, and then slaughtering said living thing just because you can, and because it benefits you, is selfish, and evil.

Evil starts when you look at something and think:

“Well it is only a......Chicken....or a Woman...or a slave...or someone different from me”..........And Then Just Do What You Want to Them.

Have some ethics and ethical imagination, by golly!

If you're a fiendlock or goolock you've probably already done much worse things to get yourself to level 1.

If I eat chicken am I evil?

[Chronos]

Yes, spiders are statted as being size Tiny. But the point is, Tiny is the smallest size category in the game. A creature an eighth of an inch across and a creature the size of a cat are both Tiny. Which is the statted-up spider meant to be?

[Christew]

Saying D&DBeyond lists these as the primary abilities is an even bigger stretch. Same for the saves. Ranger gets Str and Dex, Pally gets Wis and Cha.
How is that a stretch at all, let alone a bigger one? It is a statement of fact -- that IS what dndbeyond lists as primary abilities for those classes. It's also reiterated in the multiclass requirements.

[heavyfuel]

How is that a stretch at all, let alone a bigger one? It is a statement of fact -- that IS what dndbeyond lists as primary abilities for those classes. It's also reiterated in the multiclass requirements.

Artificers don't need Con any more than any other class. What you're saying is that we should look at the multiclass prereqs for two classes and for the saving throws of the third to arrive at the conclusion that each half caster is based on a set of two ability scores. That's a stretch.

You wanna believe that, go ahead. With the exception of maybe a "we should make an Int based half caster" idea, I doubt it ever crossed the designers mind.

[Zhorn]

I thought we were talking about casting a spell on someone without having to roll for initiative. My point was just that "knowing if a spell was attempted at all" is enough to roll initiative.
Ah, so we're talking different aspects of the subject.

I'm mainly talking about whether the casting of a spell being the thing that initiates combat or not. Specifically is response to heavyfuel's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614147-D-amp-D-5e-Fun-Facts&p=24564624#post24564624) "Targeting someone with a spell should initiate combat"
If a hostile creature notices you and intends to attack you, that is a justifiable reason to roll initiative.
My line of comments were about the casting of a spell alone is not a trigger to initiate combat.

If an enemy creature intends to attack you on sight, or will take any perceivable action as a reason to attack; then it is not the spell effect that triggered initiative, but rather just that creature not liking your face which made them hostile.

If an enemy creature is unaware of you and you cast a spell, unless the spell effect draws attention in a way to initiate hostilities, then the spell's effect will be unnoticed (PHB p204 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614147-D-amp-D-5e-Fun-Facts/page2&p=24565608#post24565608)).

So in the case of Pex's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614147-D-amp-D-5e-Fun-Facts&p=24564620#post24564620) initial post; casting Hex on an enemy and targeting their Wisdom will give then disadvantage on Perception checks. Assuming in the context of Pex's setup, the caster was stealthed during the casting and the spell goes off, the targeted creature wouldn't know they were now under the effect of a spell, and trying to perceive the stealthed caster is now a check made at disadvantage.

[Pex]

In the actual event that happened there was a sleeping ogre nearby. We couldn't immediately leave the area for some reason I no longer remember. Hex was used so that whatever noise we did make the ogre would have a harder time hearing us to wake up.

[Bobthewizard]

Ah, so we're talking different aspects of the subject.

I'm mainly talking about whether the casting of a spell being the thing that initiates combat or not. Specifically is response to heavyfuel's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614147-D-amp-D-5e-Fun-Facts&p=24564624#post24564624) "Targeting someone with a spell should initiate combat"
If a hostile creature notices you and intends to attack you, that is a justifiable reason to roll initiative.
My line of comments were about the casting of a spell alone is not a trigger to initiate combat.

If an enemy creature intends to attack you on sight, or will take any perceivable action as a reason to attack; then it is not the spell effect that triggered initiative, but rather just that creature not liking your face which made them hostile.

If an enemy creature is unaware of you and you cast a spell, unless the spell effect draws attention in a way to initiate hostilities, then the spell's effect will be unnoticed (PHB p204 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614147-D-amp-D-5e-Fun-Facts/page2&p=24565608#post24565608)).

So in the case of Pex's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614147-D-amp-D-5e-Fun-Facts&p=24564620#post24564620) initial post; casting Hex on an enemy and targeting their Wisdom will give then disadvantage on Perception checks. Assuming in the context of Pex's setup, the caster was stealthed during the casting and the spell goes off, the targeted creature wouldn't know they were now under the effect of a spell, and trying to perceive the stealthed caster is now a check made at disadvantage.

I think maybe we are discussing the same thing. I agree with heavyfuel. Casting a spell with verbal or somatic components breaks stealth just like an attack, therefore triggering initiative. If someone potentially hostile to you starts to cast a spell, you roll initiative. The DM can rule that being hidden gave you a surprise round, but you still roll initiative before the surprise round. The DM can also decide that the NPC sees you cast a spell and does nothing their first turn. But casting the spell should trigger initiative.

The phb page you reference deals with knowing the effect of the spell, not knowing if someone is casting any spell. Initiative occurs with the casting of the spell, not the effect of the spell.

[MaxWilson]

Some random fun facts:

Fun Fact: in the rules as written, the Tarrasque's Achilles Heel is caltrops. It's technically only immune to nonmagical attacks, and caltrops inflict damage on a failed save.

Fun Fact: if a metallic dragon Polymorphs itself into humanoid shape, it becomes vulnerable to Magic Jar. What happens when the Magic Jar cases uses the dragon's ability to Polymorph back into dragon shape is unclear.

Fun Fact: beholders are almost entirely neutered by a simple Darkness spell. The only things they can do to you then are bite you, use their disintegration/telekinesis beams to make indirect attacks you on (e.g. try to drop boulders on you), and command minions.

Fun Fact: if you True Polymorph yourself into an Atropal, you can generate arbitrary numbers of Wraiths, at the rate of just under 2 Wraiths per minute, and these Wraiths are all under your control.

Fun Fact: an Enchanter's Hypnotic Gaze breaks when the target takes damage, but not if you shove the target prone, restrain it with a net, grapple it, put manacles on it, and/or ready attacks to kill it. Hypnotic Gaze arguably does break when you drown it, but only when it actually drops to 0 HP--prior to that there is no damage.

Fun Fact: Hypnotic Gaze and Instinctive Charm work even while you are invisible as long as the target can still hear you, and do not break Invisibility or Sanctuary.

Fun Fact: a Swashbuckler can Hide from a target while still using Panache to taunt it--you just have to be seen or heard.

Fun Fact: SCAG Swashbucklers are slightly different from Xanathar's Swashbucklers, and are able to use Sneak Attack on targets at range even without allies or advantage, as long as other monsters are not within 5' of the Swashbuckler. (Xanathar's Swashbucklers are restricted to 5' range on this ability.)

Fun fact: A Necromancer can use Vampiric Touch to suck the life out of 10 chickens (2 cp each) to heal himself 90 HP with Grim Harvest. Every creature he kills with a spell like Evard's Black Tentacles grants him 8 HP, even if it all happens in one round, because each creature dies on a different turn (its own).

Fun fact: A Moon Druid gains +3 AC from Mage Armor in Air or Fire Elemental form, as well as Giant Constrictor Snake form and several other animal forms.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sun Soul Monks are technically spell casters for the sake of magical items, but not before they could cast Burning Hands at 6th level.

[Zhorn]

I think maybe we are discussing the same thing.
Not exactly.
You're talking about the verbal and somatic components initiating combat.
I'm talking about the spell effect not initiating combat.

Also, then there's an order of operations in how we see the events playing out:
Your interpretation (as I understand it): Caster makes a sound (verbal) and moves while in view (somatic) breaking stealth, instigating a roll for initiative before casting completion, then spell takes effect. The value of Hexing against Wisdom(Perception) or Dexterity(Initiative) is negated.

My interpretation: Hex is cast targeting Wisdom on the enemy from a stealthed condition, the spell takes effect, the enemy doesn't know they were Hexed. They potentially respond to hearing something (up to 90 feet casting range, so it needn't have been close/obvious), rolling perception at disadvantage.

[Christew]

Artificers don't need Con any more than any other class. What you're saying is that we should look at the multiclass prereqs for two classes and for the saving throws of the third to arrive at the conclusion that each half caster is based on a set of two ability scores. That's a stretch.

You wanna believe that, go ahead. With the exception of maybe a "we should make an Int based half caster" idea, I doubt it ever crossed the designers mind.
Artificers don't need CON any less than other classes, and it being one of their saves implies an association.

Regardless, it was a lighthearted callback to two of the earlier posts in this thread. You can be a humbug about if you want to.

[BurgerBeast]

I don't mean in terms of knowing if a spell was attempted at all, I mean in terms of the target specifically knowing they were subject of a spell's effect.

Right. So I’m saying it’s possible that a character always knows when he has any spell cast on him.

The reason for the text saying that the target knows he was targeted by the spell could be:

(1) to indicate that the target knows he was started by the spell, whether he succeeds or fails the save, or
(2) to indicate that the specific spell is known, as opposed to simply knowing you’re under the effect of a spell

So, the presence of the text within some spells does not, on its own, prove that a character generally does not know they are the target of a spell such as hex.

Edit: I apologize if I’ve missed your point twice. I feel like you missed mine... but it’s a pretty complicated conversation for text.

[Zhorn]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that BurgerBeast.
I'm trying to keep my reasoning consistent with information as presented in the books.
What you are saying seems to go against that and sounds more like an inserted head-canon / house ruling. Play the game how you like, whichever way you enjoy more (no bad-wrong-fun here), I just don't see that particular interpretation as RAW-consistent.

It reminds me of a Zee Bashew video (I'd normally link, but it's one of the ones he switched to private during the last youtube adpocalypse).
In it he talks about a player attempting to use illusions against NPCs, and the DM just ruling that all magic is ubiquitous, all spell effects are immediately recognised for what they are, enemy NPCs would charge through those illusions and continue to attack the PCs directly. Ruling that magic effects are all known and recognised negates a fair amount of spell effects that are not combat orientated.

[BurgerBeast]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that BurgerBeast.
I'm trying to keep my reasoning consistent with information as presented in the books.
What you are saying seems to go against that and sounds more like an inserted head-canon / house ruling. Play the game how you like, whichever way you enjoy more (no bad-wrong-fun here), I just don't see that particular interpretation as RAW-consistent.

It reminds me of a Zee Bashew video (I'd normally link, but it's one of the ones he switched to private during the last youtube adpocalypse).
In it he talks about a player attempting to use illusions against NPCs, and the DM just ruling that all magic is ubiquitous, all spell effects are immediately recognised for what they are, enemy NPCs would charge through those illusions and continue to attack the PCs directly. Ruling that magic effects are all known and recognised negates a fair amount of spell effects that are not combat orientated.

I’m not advocating the view.

That’s why I used phrasing such as “it’s possible,” etc.

I’m saying that the argument put forward is not conclusive, and I presented an example of why. And it’s not particularly contrived - to my recollection the default assumption in 4e was that all creatures were aware of all effects on them... this was rationalized, as I remember it, by noting that many of the “Mark” effects’ functions depended on the target knowing that it was marked and having to weigh the consequences.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, spiders are statted as being size Tiny. But the point is, Tiny is the smallest size category in the game. A creature an eighth of an inch across and a creature the size of a cat are both Tiny. Which is the statted-up spider meant to be?

In the absence of anything more concrete (I couldn't find it), I'm going to think that there's a minimum size that it makes sense for a creature to even be in order to control a 2½ft. square. I mean, come on, it's hardly appropriate to insist that a common house spider as we understand it should have the stats in the book - the spider listed has Str 2.

[Bobthewizard]

Not exactly.

We are discussing the same thing. We just don't agree. :smallsmile:

[Dungeon-noob]

Some random fun facts:

[B]Fun Fact: beholders are almost entirely neutered by a simple Darkness spell. The only things they can do to you then are bite you, use their disintegration/telekinesis beams to make indirect attacks you on (e.g. try to drop boulders on you), and command minions.

Fun Fact: if you True Polymorph yourself into an Atropal, you can generate arbitrary numbers of Wraiths, at the rate of just under 2 Wraiths per minute, and these Wraiths are all under your control.
I do have to refute these two. Beholders have a anti-magic cone out of their central eye; that instantly dismisses the darkness. You can't hide behind magic against them. Now, a non-magical smoke bomb? That'd work.

As for the second, there are just a few issues with that idea. First, i can't find the Atropal statted in any 5e book. Doesn't seem to be a available in this edition. Second, what i can find about the Atropal definetely puts it's CR above 20, meaning you can't true polymorph yourself into it, even if it were a 5e creature.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

[MoiMagnus]

Uggh...has anyone raised chickens before?

Chicken are indeed not the best choice. Just use worms/centipedes/spiders/scorpions in a jar. (Or whatever disgusting insect fit the background of your Warlock)

[Chronos]

A beholder's anti-magic eye won't help it much against Darkness. With its eye open, it'll be able to see just fine in that cone, but then it can't use any of its other eye-beams against what it sees, because they're also in antimagic. And if it then closes its eye again, the Darkness turns back on, and it's again unable to see. Antimagic field suppresses spells in its area, but it doesn't end them.

[ForeverFlame]

see the post below

[JackPhoenix]

I do have to refute these two. Beholders have a anti-magic cone out of their central eye; that instantly dismisses the darkness. You can't hide behind magic against them. Now, a non-magical smoke bomb? That'd work.

Antimagic cone can temporarily suppress the Darkness as long as the beholder keeps the cone pointed at it, but it doesn't end it, just suppress it for the duration, and the beholder can't use its eye rays against something inside the cone.


As for the second, there are just a few issues with that idea. First, i can't find the Atropal statted in any 5e book. Doesn't seem to be a available in this edition. Second, what i can find about the Atropal definetely puts it's CR above 20, meaning you can't true polymorph yourself into it, even if it were a 5e creature.

ToA, CR 13.


Chicken are indeed not the best choice. Just use worms/centipedes/spiders/scorpions in a jar. (Or whatever disgusting insect fit the background of your Warlock)

Chickens are available on equipemnt list, for 2 cp, you don't have to look for them. And you can eat it after you're done.

[Man_Over_Game]

Antimagic cone can temporarily suppress the Darkness as long as the beholder keeps the cone pointed at it, but it doesn't end it, just suppress it for the duration, and the beholder can't use its eye rays against something inside the cone.


Between Fog Cloud and Darkness, a party should be able to maintain that cover indefinitely.

[Telok]

At about a 20:1 ratio you can replace a team of 10 sled dogs with 200 trained spiders in harnesses for winter time transport. As a bonus you are now probably completely safe from bandits and wolves.