Tier 6 VS Tier 1

[dancrilis]

Was taking a look through some of the tier discussion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!) recently and a thought occured - if anyone more familiar with tiers would like to engage it (although I imagine this might have been done before).

Assuming single class characters:
How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 1 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.
How many levels would a Tier 1 druid or cleric* need to match a Level 20 Tier 6 commoner.
How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 20 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.
Epic Levels allowed if needed.
*(if different for the different tier 1s it might be helpful to break them down).

As potentially a follow up how does it change if instead of the commoner how does it change if we use a Tier 5 Monk, Tier 4 Fighter, Tier 3 Bard, Tier 2 Sorcerer or a Tier 1 Wizard** as the lower tiered class (to stick with Player Handbook class excepting the commoner from the DMG).
**listed as a lower tier 1 character then the cleric or druid rating 1.1 instead of a flat 1.

Edit: Posted in the wrong section - will try to move it. Move achieved (with assistance).

[Rhyltran]

Was taking a look through some of the tier discussion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!) recently and a thought occured - if anyone more familiar with tiers would like to engage it (although I imagine this might have been done before).

Assuming single class characters:
How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 1 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.
How many levels would a Tier 1 druid or cleric* need to match a Level 20 Tier 6 commoner.
How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 20 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.
Epic Levels allowed if needed.
*(if different for the different tier 1s it might be helpful to break them down).

As potentially a follow up how does it change if instead of the commoner how does it change if we use a Tier 5 Monk, Tier 4 Fighter, Tier 3 Bard, Tier 2 Sorcerer or a Tier 1 Wizard** as the lower tiered class (to stick with Player Handbook class excepting the commoner from the DMG).
**listed as a lower tier 1 character then the cleric or druid rating 1.1 instead of a flat 1.

Edit: Posted in the wrong section - will try to move it. Move achieved (with assistance).

This is complicated. How well is the Tier 1 optimized vs the Tier 6?

[Kayblis]

There are a couple assumptions you have to make to judge classes, specially such different classes like Full Caster vs Commoner. I'll first assume there's no real WBL, no money past what mundane, personal stuff you can make with your hands. This is only to give the Commoner a weapon and maybe armor. Then I'll assume the caster knows what he's doing, so no Fireballs, but no special rules loopholes.

1) Around 7+, to be outside the range of most SoLs and have enough HP and stats to survive the animal companions.

2) 5 levels. This is a conservative answer, every T1 has a way to completely neutralize the Commoner 20 by level 5. From Flight to Invisibility, from altering terrain to no-saves, all of them are able to wreck a simple sack of HP 10 out of 10 times. This relates to the question above, because a level 3 caster can wreck a level 12 Commoner most of the time, though it's not so reliable without optimization. After level 5, adding more Commoner levels do little to change the situation, and the only thing that matters is if the Commoner can amass enough Epic Feats to play the character for him.

3) NI. An effectively infitine amount of dice. If you say "I pass every save on a 2, I kill anything on a hit of 2, I have infinite health", the situation is more a puzzle for the caster to bend this infini-Commoner on itself enough to force him to roll a 1, or use no-save interactions to force him into dying, or something to that effect. This is not a specially hard puzzle, I'd like to point out, and most people will find out a way to do it given time.

If you add money, the Commoner will basically spend all his resources to get an answer to each situation he's powerless against, or just buy wands and scrolls of spells he needs to reproduce. Raise the mentioned levels by 2~4 depending on WBL efficiency.

As a special point, Wizard is not weaker than Cleric or Druid, but he has a much lower floor. A Wizard with terrible spell selection is a commoner. The tiering reflects that, you need more work to make the Wizard work and it's much easier to make a bad Wizard than a bad Druid.

Edit: Corrected my 1st answer

[tyckspoon]

Assuming single class characters:
How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 1 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.


Assuming we're excluding some of the more infamous cheese exercises, I'd say probably 5 or 6? You need enough Hit Dice to take yourself out of the range of the level 1 disabling spells, most of which are gated by Hit Dice, and you should have good enough combat stats from the combination of level stats (BAB, HP, saves) and equipment to beat whatever the Druid brings along as an Animal Companion at this point.


How many levels would a Tier 1 druid or cleric* need to match a Level 20 Tier 6 commoner.

Probably around 10, to do it reliably, assuming the Commoner gets Level 20 wealth and is allowed to spend it sensibly? Also assuming we are barring full on wealth optimization, because everybody can be a Wizard for 4 fights a day if you spend your money right, especially at level 20. The stats/feats/equipment provided simply by being Level 20 allow for some pretty nasty tricks, but I don't think it's anything that you can't beat with correct use of level 4 and 5 spells.


How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 20 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.

Infinite, or we have to allow them to use their wealth to pretend to be a Tier 1 caster, at which point the functional distinction disappears. Well used level 7-8-9 spells are quite hard to beat unless you can come at them with your own magic.

[dancrilis]

This is complicated. How well is the Tier 1 optimized vs the Tier 6?

I kindof want to say optimized to the same degree but I imagine that changes the figures a lot.

So lets instead say as optimised as possible but only using material in the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) - I think that should allow for it to be a restricted enough discussion.

[Bucky]

This is a conservative answer, every T1 has a way to completely neutralize the Commoner 20 by level 5. From Flight to Invisibility, from altering terrain to no-saves, all of them are able to wreck a simple sack of HP 10 out of 10 times.

They need to do more than simply wreck the HP sack, they need to do so before their buffs expire. Meanwhile, the Commoner can have better stealth and perception - not as much as an Expert, but enough to beat the Wizard - and can respond to a self-buff like Fly with a game of hide-and-seek.

[Troacctid]

The tier list doesn't really measure level 1 play. If you're just looking at a level 1 wizard, it's pretty trivial to match or surpass them with a level 1 character from another tier. Rather, the primary focus of the tier list is more the level 6–12 range. So it would be better to ask how many commoner levels stack up against a level 8 caster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You've fundamentally misunderstood what the tier ranking represents. It's not a measure of combat prowess alone. It it was, T1 and T2 would likely be flipped.

At level 1 a commoner has a chance of beating a level 1 wizard in a fight on sheer dumb-luck. But he has no ability to deal with the host of things that can be solved with even level one 1 spells from even a limited list such as that of the shaman, nevermind the host of options available to a level 1 artificer through spell storing item. With careful feat and gear* selection he might match a level 1 wizard in overall capability by level 6 or so while being a lot tougher.

That's the difference between the top two tiers and everything below them; whatever the situation, there's something that a member of one of those classes can do to meaningfully interact with it even if your particular wizard or cleric you're actually playing can't for whatever reason. The difference between T1 and T2 is that the former can change out what any particular character of that class can do relatively quickly and easily to adapt to changing circumstances while the latter has to jump through some substantial hoops to do so.

T6, at the other end, get little to nothing substantial from their class and generally only ever get real goodies from careful feat and gear choices.

Tiers 3, 4, and 5 fit in between those extremes with 3 being like the first two with substantial gaps and 5 will be like 6 but with at least one feature of note.

Also mind that, in all cases, the tier rankings only represent an average potential for those classes. A wizard that makes too many poor decisions in building will be largely indistinguishable from an average commoner in play while working the right magic with universal game elements can make a character tremendously potent, regardless of class.

If we're sticking to class examples of average quality, the commoner will be well into epic before it can't help but match a level 1 wizard.

Definitionally, classes on the same tier ranking that are of average quality can't be definitively declared to be better or worse than one another. It's far too circumstance dependent.


*WBL is a thing. Disregarding it in class comparisons is no different than ignoring iterative attacks or feats. It's extremely fluid nature has led many to declare, erroneously, that it is a rising tide that raises all ships. It is not. The effect of WBL on a class and its tier are inversely proportional.

[Ruethgar]

Level 1, Sculpt Self on at will spells of every spell as heightened and reduced by a Mind Mage and caught by a Spellhoarder, when learned and used thereafter, they lose heighten, but keep the reduction. Even if you only do this with heightened firsts down to negative one spell levels, you have enough wealth of xp to exceed a wizard in casting ability, plus you have all first level spells at will.

[thethird]

Level 1, Sculpt Self on at will spells of every spell as heightened and reduced by a Mind Mage and caught by a Spellhoarder, when learned and used thereafter, they lose heighten, but keep the reduction. Even if you only do this with heightened firsts down to negative one spell levels, you have enough wealth of xp to exceed a wizard in casting ability, plus you have all first level spells at will.

Why can a commoner do that and a wizard not do that?

[Aharon]

@Question 3: as an upper bound, I think +100.000 to all ability scores would make a commoner reliably beat tier ones - that would be level 2.400.000.

I'll go out on a limb: level 1.000, with +40 to all stats, and 333 feats, is probably already rather hard to defeat.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho commoner is not t6. a quote from another commoner thread on the main page atm. :


A Warforged Commoner who doesn't need sleep needs just 1 flaw (Chicken Infested) and 2 feats (Martial Study, Martial Stance Blood in the Water) to be able to build up the Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy Combo (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?241913). At Level 1.

It all comes down to the optimization lvl. And if you take the quoted build with a ranged weapon and a high dex score, most T1 classes will have problems to survive this at lvl1 or compete with it.

Another problem is that T1 ain't that strong at lvl 1. A lot of the power gap comes at later lvls.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Imho commoner is not t6. a quote from another commoner thread on the main page atm. :



It all comes down to the optimization lvl. And if you take the quoted build with a ranged weapon and a high dex score, most T1 classes will have problems to survive this at lvl1 or compete with it.

Another problem is that T1 ain't that strong at lvl 1. A lot of the power gap comes at later lvls.

A) having that one trick doesn't change the tier of commoner, though it could be said to change the tier of that particular commoner. Classes don't move up or down in the ranking for extreme cases. As I said above, a wizard can be built to be a tier 6 character but the class itself remains tier 1 because of the average potential of all wizards.

B) that trick doesn't work at level 1. If IL is, indeed, a prerequisite to choosing a maneuver with martial study then the IL of 1/2 that a level 1 non-adept has gets rounded down to zero (no minimum in the rules text) and you can't actually choose a maneuver when you take MS at level 1. If IL isn't a prerequisite, then the feat breaks completely as several level 9 maneuvers have no other prerequisites.

[magicalmagicman]

Nothing a commoner can do can outperform planar binding, simulacrum, ice assassin, gate, etc.

So the answer is infinite. A commoner needs an infinite amount of levels to compare to a tier 1.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nothing a commoner can do can outperform planar binding, simulacrum, ice assassin, gate, etc.

So the answer is infinite. A commoner needs an infinite amount of levels to compare to a tier 1.

Planar touchstone for the catalogues of enlightenment's greater power can get any character any of those but ice assassin. The commoner can't necessarily have -all- of those unless a certain ruling is given as regards taking the feat multiple times.

In any case, those spells can all be foiled. They aren't what makes wizard a T1 though they do contribute somewhat. The fact that a wizard has such a very broad array of things he can do with any situation, the broadest of any class but artificer in fact, and that he can change his loadout quickly and easily are what make him a T1.

[magicalmagicman]

Planar touchstone for the catalogues of enlightenment's greater power can get any character any of those but ice assassin. The commoner can't necessarily have -all- of those unless a certain ruling is given as regards taking the feat multiple times.

In any case, those spells can all be foiled. They aren't what makes wizard a T1 though they do contribute somewhat. The fact that a wizard has such a very broad array of things he can do with any situation, the broadest of any class but artificer in fact, and that he can change his loadout quickly and easily are what make him a T1.

I disagree. What makes a T1 is its ability to get monster stuff.

A wizard using summon monster? Psh, a joke, even a mundane can outperform.
A wizard using polymorph? Monster stats and natural attacks makes all but the most optimized mundanes cry that the wizard fights better.
A wizard using polymorph and assume supernatural ability? Game breaker. Zodar wish is achieved as early as level 7 by stacking +8 CL boosters. Polymorph into Phasm, use its Su ability to turn into a Zodar.
A wizard using Planar Binding to get access to all outsiders including their SLAs? Even bigger gamebreaker.
A wizard using Simulacrum and Ice Assassin to get access to all monsters in all of d&d including their SLAs, Sus, and Ex abilities? wtf can a commoner do?

Get rid of the monster stuff and...
blasty BFC wizard. Yawn.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I disagree. What makes a T1 is its ability to get monster stuff.

It certainly doesn't hurt but it doesn't offer much all in all. A lot of "monster stuff" that you can get by whatever of those means is also available as simpler spells or magic items. Polymorph itself, rather its psionic equivalent, is available to anyone in the psychoactive skin of the proteus.


A wizard using summon monster? Psh, a joke, even a mundane can outperform.

As a combat monkey, definitely. Summon monster's gems are in creatures with SLAs. An ice mephit gets you 7 walls of ice from a single 4th level slot, even if the duration gets sharply cut. A rod of extend makes that 14. In either case, you also get your actions on each of those rounds to do other things. That is the power of summon monster not the extra meat on the field.


A wizard using polymorph? Monster stats and natural attacks makes all but the most optimized mundanes cry that the wizard fights better.

Hardly. The wizard's lucky to match the fighter's attack bonus with the extra strength from most forms, nevermind his weapon's enhancements and any special combat options he has through feats and features. The wizard won't even be a match for the creature he's emulating unless there's a buff stack on top of the polymorph in most cases.


A wizard using polymorph and assume supernatural ability? Game breaker.

Depends on the supernatural ability, really. Few are game breakers and they're usually associated with forms with a high HD count.


Zodar wish is achieved as early as level 7 by stacking +8 CL boosters. Polymorph into Phasm, use its Su ability to turn into a Zodar.

Take this for example. You can't actually do that since the form you can choose is -also- limited by the target's HD not just the wizard's CL.

Unless the target has 16HD, he can't be a zodar.


A wizard using Planar Binding to get access to all outsiders including their SLAs? Even bigger gamebreaker.

With the rather notable exception of trying to cheese free wishes out of genies, this is largely overstated as well. The entire line of spells is limited by the HD of the target creature and the vast majority of outsiders don't have special abilities wildly outside of the range of powers that are available to a PC of a level similar to their CR which is typically near to, or notably smaller than, their HD.


A wizard using Simulacrum and Ice Assassin to get access to all monsters in all of d&d including their SLAs, Sus, and Ex abilities?

A single 9th level spell that requires you to cheese it to be more than intended to match your description does not an entire class make. The vast majority of things you -could- copy at level 17+ are less potent than the wizard casting the spell.


wtf can a commoner do?

Most of the same; just a lot less often, probably not all at the same time, and with much greater difficulty in changing his loadout.


Get rid of the monster stuff and...
blasty BFC wizard. Yawn.

If you want to yawn at the ability to bend space and reality to better suit your ends and desires through the vast array of other options that don't involve conjuring up or changing into another creature, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, -literally- turning a chunk of the battlefield into hell itself (precipitate complete breach) is pretty badass if you ask me.

Then of course, and this is one that a lot of people miss for some reason, there's all the non-combat things they can do. You can turn a lump of iron into a useable weapon in just 10 minutes (fabricate), "convince" someone to do just about anything within reason (suggestion), skip weeks of travel time (teleport et al), hide whole areas from enemy detection (mirage arcana). Hell, you can fix broken crockery and do laundry with the slightest of magics (make whole and prestidigitation).

If being a juggernaut in combat was all it took to be tier 1, the -paladin- would be tier 1.


EDIT: If I ever meet whoever is responsible for autocorrect, I swear by all the gods he's gonna get one hell of an earfull.

[Ruethgar]

Why can a commoner do that and a wizard not do that?

No reason a wizard can’t do that, but millions in effective wealth makes the class a lot less relevant.

[hungrycrow]

As far as i can tell leadership isn't banned? So at maximum a commoner can beat a level 20 tier 1 as soon as he gets his own level 20 tier 1 cohort.

[magicalmagicman]

It certainly doesn't hurt but it doesn't offer much all in all. A lot of "monster stuff" that you can get by whatever of those means is also available as simpler spells or magic items. Polymorph itself, rather its psionic equivalent, is available to anyone in the psychoactive skin of the proteus.

No it is not.
1. Skin of Proteus is mega expensive.
2. Phylactery of Change is the affordable one and NO. Both items are restricted to 7hd or lower because of caster level/manifester level.


As a combat monkey, definitely. Summon monster's gems are in creatures with SLAs. An ice mephit gets you 7 walls of ice from a single 4th level slot, even if the duration gets sharply cut. A rod of extend makes that 14. In either case, you also get your actions on each of those rounds to do other things. That is the power of summon monster not the extra meat on the field.

The ice mephit one is news to me but generally, all the BFC summon monster provides is too weak for the level you get them.


Hardly. The wizard's lucky to match the fighter's attack bonus with the extra strength from most forms, nevermind his weapon's enhancements and any special combat options he has through feats and features. The wizard won't even be a match for the creature he's emulating unless there's a buff stack on top of the polymorph in most cases.

Hydra. Or Girallon's Blessing spell. Either of them will turn the polymorphed wizard into something that out fights everything but uberchargers or some other mega optimized mundane. Not saying a mundane can't outperform the wizard. I'm saying everything but the most minmaxed mundane will be able to match the wizard.


Depends on the supernatural ability, really. Few are game breakers and they're usually associated with forms with a high HD count.



Take this for example. You can't actually do that since the form you can choose is -also- limited by the target's HD not just the wizard's CL.

Unless the target has 16HD, he can't be a zodar.

My mistake on the first part. Metamorphosis lets you go beyond your hd and I always think it and polymorph are identical. But you're wrong about the 2nd part. Phasm's alter form ability's restrictions are size and nothing else. HD does not matter in the slightest. And polymorph's restrictions has no jurisdiction on Phasm's Su ability.

There's a reason why Assume Supernatural Ability is banned or gets banned by a lot of DMs.
Ravid lets you perpetually animate Gargantuan objects. All you need is a phylactery of change or a persisted alter self combined with the spell lesser holy transformation or being an aasimar of some kind.
Madcrafter of Thoon lets you create infinite Scythers of Thoon because their spawn thoon ability is unlimited and costs only 20hp per use which is easily overcome either by a PP recharge trick or a DMM Persistent Mass lesser Vigor.
There's quickness for double actions
Aforementioned Zodar for wishes
At will death gaze attacks
etc. etc.


With the rather notable exception of trying to cheese free wishes out of genies, this is largely overstated as well. The entire line of spells is limited by the HD of the target creature and the vast majority of outsiders don't have special abilities wildly outside of the range of powers that are available to a PC of a level similar to their CR which is typically near to, or notably smaller than, their HD.

A CR20 creature is meant to be fought by an entire party of 20th level characters. A 15th level wizard can bind as many CR20 creatures as he wants. Even if he binds only one, that is too much for the game as designed.


A single 9th level spell that requires you to cheese it to be more than intended to match your description does not an entire class make. The vast majority of things you -could- copy at level 17+ are less potent than the wizard casting the spell.

Simulacrum is 7th level. A 13th level wizard with some CL boosters and the summon component spell is gonna be creating CR20+ creatures at 13th level.


Most of the same; just a lot less often, probably not all at the same time, and with much greater difficulty in changing his loadout.
Only if he is a UMD fighter living in a metropolis.


If you want to yawn at the ability to bend space and reality to better suit your ends and desires through the vast array of other options that don't involve conjuring up or changing into another creature, I don't know what to tell you.

If badass is measured by how OP you are on the battlefield, the ability to bend space and reality is a yawn compared to obtaining more than one CR20+ creatures at levels 13-15.

Like if I see an optimized BFC wizard, he's nice to have but he has his limits. Like he can't kill on his own, he has a limit of encounters he can do in a day, etc. Totally awesome but not OP. Even the Mailman can't handle more than a few encounters and is susceptible to BFC himself.
But a polymorph or planar binding abusing wizard? He needs no party. He makes his own party. And if his party dies he makes a new one.

Monster access is what pushes awesome into gamebreaking. Even DMM:Persistent Spell Clerics spamming Nightsticks is inferior to the planar binder or simulacrum master because one is susceptible to dispel magic, and the other not only is unaffected by dispel magic but can also spam it at-will without using his own actions.

[Aharon]

A CR20 creature is meant to be fought by an entire party of 20th level characters. A 15th level wizard can bind as many CR20 creatures as he wants. Even if he binds only one, that is too much for the game as designed.


Planar Binding is dysfunctional (see here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14453860&postcount=1377) and here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14522781&postcount=1429))

f both these dysfunctions were taken in account, Planar Binding is basically limited to higher level casters:

Cast the Magic circle
Cast a quickened dimensional anchor
cast a quickened greater plane shift
The conditions of your crafted contingency trigger and Planar binding is cast on your target
Planar travel back and debuff

[Kelb_Panthera]

No it is not.

What monster stuff isn't available through some non-polymorph spell that also isn't mega specific or just a spell with some limitation altered?


1. Skin of Proteus is mega expensive.

As metamorphosis at will ought to be. The guidelines suggest that the earliest it should reasonably be on the table is level 15 through partnering with a crafter.


2. Phylactery of Change is the affordable one.

1 form per day. Hope you picked the right one and can avoid dispelling effects


Both items are restricted to 7hd or lower because of caster level/manifester level.

And? It still makes the effect readily available to non-casters.


The ice mephit one is news to me but generally, all the BFC summon monster provides is too weak for the level you get them.

Maybe, but you get multiples of them at no extra cost of spell slots or effects that are otherwise hard to copy.

Take an air elemental at SM V; mobile version of specific target entangle, and dust cloud, and a chance of being able to push the enemy around. If you're a serious summoner, augmented summoning gets the DC up to 15 minimum and imbued summoning will cost you a second level slot extra to bump that to 17 and augment the damage it does. Use summon monster 6 with a max rod and you get three of them, all acting independently while you're still free for that minute or so to do whatever else you want. While they can only hold the whirlwind form for two rounds, that's two of the typical five.

Still at SM V is the achaierai, it's cloud's insanity effect is ex and doesn't disappear when the spell lapses if it sticks. As with the elemental, it's DC improves if you're a dedicated summoner.

Back to SM IV for something a little cheesy, mirror mephits get simulacrum at will. The simulacra disappear along with the mephit at the end of the summon's duration, let the subschool's rules, but in the meantime you can have the enemy fighting themselves. That one's from an obscure source and a little broken so watch for flying DMGs.

I thought minioning was your thing, dude? Only the third of those is non-core.


Hydra.

Lol.

At level 7, you're lookin at +5 to-hit unless you're buff stacking. A fighter should be sporting no less than 11 and average AC at CR 7 is 20.

On most rounds, the wizard hits twice out of his seven attacks for 2*(1d10+4) or about 17 points of damage. Over the five rounds of a typical fight, that'll be about 10 hits for 95 or so damage.

A fighter at this level could have a +1 greatsword, 18 str (16 nat +2 gauntlets ), and +1 speed armor, no problem. That's +12 to-hit for 2d6+7 damage. Note: this is conservative. In 5 rounds, he should hit 5 times just from his regular and iterative attacks for about 70 damage. If he actually uses up the charges on his armor, getting the two more to match the wizard's damage output is more likely than not.

That's not power attacking. That's not with optimal stats or race. That's not charging. That's not even climbing the weapon focus tree or two-weapon fighting. As levels go up, that gap in ability only grows. It grows -fast- when the fighter is actually seriously optimized.

The case for polymorph is overstated wrt combat.


Or Girallon's Blessing spell.

Not a polymorph effect and a sad joke on a non-gish wizard by itself. Good one to add to a buff stack or to cast on somebody with something like sneak attack. Using it with the hydra form makes either the claws or the bites into secondary attacks at +0. Likely won't add a single hit to the total.


Either of them will turn the polymorphed wizard into something that out fights everything but uberchargers or some other mega optimized mundane. Not saying a mundane can't outperform the wizard.

Not even together, as I've just shown. Gonna need to get some bull's strength or cheese divine power in there. At which point you're investing a -lot- of your higher level resources in one fight. As for higher levels, the fighter's combat performance grows -much- faster than the caster's. Buffing catches you up (kind of). You've got to go full gish to pull ahead.


I'm saying everything but the most minmaxed mundane will not be able to match the wizard.

FIFY, though it was more accurate before I did.

High-op warriors are serious figurative monsters in combat. Turning yourself into a poor facsimile of a literal combat monster isn't enough to more than poorly ape them. You gotta go gish if you want the numbers to add up for matching even moderately optimized fighters, nevermind anything serious.


My mistake on the first part. Metamorphosis lets you go beyond your hd and I always think it and polymorph are identical. But you're wrong about the 2nd part.

Pushing ML is notably harder than pushing CL beyond the first few points. You only get so many feats and metamorphosis is way harder to come by than polymorph.



Phasm's alter form ability's restrictions are size and nothing else. HD does not matter in the slightest. And polymorph's restrictions has no jurisdiction on Phasm's Su ability.

16 HD literally not an option until shapechange since it's beyond the HD cap for both polymorph and metamorphosis.


There's a reason why Assume Supernatural Ability is banned or gets banned by a lot of DMs.

Mostly fear of half-understood mechanics and a few legit corner cases.


Ravid lets you perpetually animate Gargantuan objects. All you need is a phylactery of change or a persisted alter self combined with the spell lesser holy transformation or being an aasimar of some kind.

Gargantuan minions aren't the most wieldly and huge objects just aren't that impressive, nevermind where you're even going to get such objects with any frequency.


Madcrafter of Thoon lets you create infinite Scythers of Thoon because their spawn thoon ability is unlimited and costs only 20hp per use which is easily overcome either by a PP recharge trick or a DMM Persistent Mass lesser Vigor.

You don't explicitly get control of those. They wait for orders from a telepathic creature of thoon, hope you didn't ban enchantment or getting telepathy won't be so easy. Gods help you when that polymorph ends if you haven't been careful with orders.


There's quickness for double actions

That one is legitimately powerful good pick.


Aforementioned Zodar for wishes

16HD


At will death gaze attacks

The only creature that leaps to mind for that is the bodak. As an undead you can't take that form unless you're one too, cutting you off from easy access to ravid and other outsiders.


etc. etc.

So far, I'm unimpressed.


A CR20 creature is meant to be fought by an entire party of 20th level characters. A 15th level wizard can bind as many CR20 creatures as he wants. Even if he binds only one, that is too much for the game as designed.

See this is the kind of stuff that's what I mean with over-selling. GPB is capped at 18HD and CR virtually -never- exceeds HD. There -might- be a CR 20, 18HD somewhere but I'll flabbergasted if there's 3.


Simulacrum is 7th level. A 13th level wizard with some CL boosters and the summon component spell is gonna be creating CR20+ creatures at 13th level.

To fulfill that promise you'll need to find a creature that is CR 20 with half its HD. Maybe doable with circle magic almost certainly not without and even then it's dicey before 15 and the ability to lead a greater circle.


Only if he is a UMD fighter living in a metropolis.

Dude. Catalogues of Enlightenment. I had already mentioned it in this thread.


If badass is measured by how OP you are on the battlefield, the ability to bend space and reality is a yawn compared to obtaining more than one CR20+ creatures at levels 13-15.

I'm sorry but having minions just doesn't impress. Any class can accomplish that to a greater or lesser degree. If you're gonna be cheesy, any character can have an arbitrary number.


Like if I see an optimized BFC wizard, he's nice to have but he has his limits. Like he can't kill on his own, he has a limit of encounters he can do in a day, etc. Totally awesome but not OP. Even the Mailman can't handle more than a few encounters and is susceptible to BFC himself.
But a polymorph or planar binding abusing wizard? He needs no party. He makes his own party. And if his party dies he makes a new one.

Polymorph is much less than you think it is. Conjured minions are one cl boosted holy word from being gone if they're not barred from the area magically in the first place. Everything in this system has its soft limits and hard limits. This stuff is no exception. You only get so many polymorphs in a day and disposable minions have to be replaced frequently and at inopportune times unless the GM is softballing.


Monster access is what pushes awesome into gamebreaking. Even DMM:Persistent Spell Clerics spamming Nightsticks is inferior to the planar binder or simulacrum master because one is susceptible to dispel magic, and the other not only is unaffected by dispel magic but can also spam it at-will without using his own actions.

Dispel, sure. What about dictum? Banishment? Simulacra are -weak- unless you cheese the spell.

If your group doesn't have a warrior, go for it. Somebody has to drain the enemy of their HP. If it does though, you're wasting resources on redundancy. Use your magic to do something that's not already covered ground.

[magicalmagicman]

What monster stuff isn't available through some non-polymorph spell that also isn't mega specific or just a spell with some limitation altered?

Ability to spawn an army in a day
Ability to maintain multiple gargantuan animated objects all day
Free Wishes
I'm not gonna repeat the whole list, but in Rules Compendium the author flat out admits that polymorph is broken because when authors design monsters, they don't take into consideration players using the monster's abilities. The logic extends to minions.


And? It still makes the effect readily available to non-casters.

7hd forms aren't something to brag about. The higher hd forms are the gamebreakers.
i.e. 12 headed hydra vs 7 headed hydra
Phasm is 15hd which lets you turn into every single small, medium, and large creature in the game.
Madcrafter of Thoon is 10hd
War Troll is 12hd


Take an air elemental at SM V; mobile version of specific target entangle, and dust cloud, and a chance of being able to push the enemy around. If you're a serious summoner, augmented summoning gets the DC up to 15 minimum and imbued summoning will cost you a second level slot extra to bump that to 17 and augment the damage it does. Use summon monster 6 with a max rod and you get three of them, all acting independently while you're still free for that minute or so to do whatever else you want. While they can only hold the whirlwind form for two rounds, that's two of the typical five.

Entangle is relevant at 9th level let alone 11th level? That's news to me.


Back to SM IV for something a little cheesy, mirror mephits get simulacrum at will. The simulacra disappear along with the mephit at the end of the summon's duration, let the subschool's rules, but in the meantime you can have the enemy fighting themselves. That one's from an obscure source and a little broken so watch for flying DMGs.

Nope. General Summon rules prevent summoned creatures from casting SLAs that replicate spells with costly components. There's a summon mirror mephit spell that's 2nd level as well. The only way you gonna use Mirror Mephit's abilities is either Improved Familiar, or Lesser Planar Binding. What level does a commoner have to be to compete with a Mirror Mephit in player hands?


I thought minioning was your thing, dude? Only the third of those is non-core.

It is, but I'm guessing I play at a higher optimization table than you. When I get to 9th level I'm doing all the OP stuff I mentioned with Planar Binding



Not a polymorph effect and a sad joke on a non-gish wizard by itself. Good one to add to a buff stack or to cast on somebody with something like sneak attack. Using it with the hydra form makes either the claws or the bites into secondary attacks at +0. Likely won't add a single hit to the total.

Not Hydra, you use it with War Troll. Actually I use it on my planar binding minions. A monster with reach and high strength like the Gargantuan Animated Object or an outsider with pounce like the Steel Predator with Girallon's Blessing is absolute murder especially when you get some of them persistent spells that give +1d6 to all attacks. They do like 200 damage a round at max BAB. My DM asked me to not use Girallon's Blessing on top of my polymorph and planar binding stuff.


16 HD literally not an option until shapechange since it's beyond the HD cap for both polymorph and metamorphosis.

I think you think that Phasm is 16hd? It's 15hd so polymorph is enough.


Gargantuan minions aren't the most wieldly and huge objects just aren't that impressive, nevermind where you're even going to get such objects with any frequency.

With another outsider called a Rejkar with at-will fabricate!


You don't explicitly get control of those. They wait for orders from a telepathic creature of thoon, hope you didn't ban enchantment or getting telepathy won't be so easy. Gods help you when that polymorph ends if you haven't been careful with orders.

They are mindless. Literally mindless. Polymorph into a thoon, use telepathy to program them to obey your human form and verbal commands. Done.


16HD

Phasm is 15hd. Zodar is Large size. Alternate Form has no hd restriction. Polymorph's restriction doesn't apply to Su abilities of polymorphed forms.


The only creature that leaps to mind for that is the bodak. As an undead you can't take that form unless you're one too, cutting you off from easy access to ravid and other outsiders.

Nabassu. There are mountains and mountains of monsters out there, chances are everything you want is in a Su form somewhere. And Nabassu is not the only one. Basilisk Petrifying gaze is also Su iirc.


So far, I'm unimpressed.

Because you got a lot of them wrong or dismissed them upon the 1st obstacle of using said ability : P


See this is the kind of stuff that's what I mean with over-selling. GPB is capped at 18HD and CR virtually -never- exceeds HD. There -might- be a CR 20, 18HD somewhere but I'll flabbergasted if there's 3.

Pit Fiends are 18hd cr20.

Having a CR18 creature or multiple CR18 creatures is not OP enough for you? Some of them are crazy like Paeliryons with their at-will polymorph and meteor storm.



I'm gonna stop here. I think I'm derailing the thread. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[emeraldstreak]

How many levels would a Tier 6 commoner need to match a Level 1 Tier 1 druid or cleric*.

Charitably, 2.

[Zecrin]

I think you think that Phasm is 16hd? It's 15hd so polymorph is enough.


Assuming you're picking up alternate form with ASA, wouldn't this require you to convince the DM that the Phasm's alternate form is a "similar effect" to the polymorph self spell? I'm not saying you couldn't make this argument, just that the outcome is somewhat DM dependant.

Additionally, ASA says you gain a creature's supernatural ability "while assuming its form." A canny DM could easily read this to mean that since you are no longer in the phasm's form you lose your alternate form supernatural ability.

The is all moot though once we consider the draconic polymorph spell, but you're only targeting yourself in this case. You can still do Zodar wish looping, but then everyone else has been doing this since 1st level (with pazuzu) or 5th level (when you have enough WBL to buy a candle of invocation) if your playing in the kind of campaign where wish loops are allowed.



Nabassu.


In my experience, instadeath auras and gaze attacks tend to hurt players far more than they do enemies. Much better you pick a creature that can cast targeted save or looses (of which there are plenty to pick from).
______________

I personally think that Planar Binding is a good spell line, but it has a few flaws. First, cast it nine times to summon evil creatures and your soul is immediately condemned to Baator per FC2 p.30.
Second, once the planar binding wears off, there's a good chance the creature could seek revenge against you and since it's already on the material plane, you had better watch out. This is especially true if you bound something like a mirror mephit which would theoretically reassume control over any active simulacra. Third, the effectiveness of the spell relies partially on how the dm interprets "cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly." For example, does summoning a creature constitute disturbing the diagram if you don't command that creature to interfere with the powder? What if the summoned Erinyes just decides of it's own volition to drop a feather on the circle?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ability to spawn an army in a day

Armageddon gets you a small army from a single casting for 17 minutes. It has its restrictions and a cost to mitigate but it beats the crap out of a few, or even a few dozen, mindless constructs of low ability.

If you want to cheese your magic to have arbitrary numbers of minions, you can have an arbitrarily large number of summoned creatures with a simple arcane fusion - sanctum spell loop in a single round. Rapid summoning conjurer into wyrm wizard to get all the relevant bits. What can possibly stand against a NI number of... well, anything from any summon monster really?


Ability to maintain multiple gargantuan animated objects all day

Gargantuan, mindless constructs are great... when you have all your encounters in open fields. Even getting the far less impressive huge animated objects into most dungeons or even city streets will be difficult. An option you can't use indoors isn't much of an option. The ravid's animation ability is also -explicitly- random. It falls apart if there's -gravel- in the area since you don't get to choose what animates. Nevermind the myriad options for auto-dispelling when you simply enter an area.


Free Wishes

Known cheese and -still- harder than you're portraying. See below.


I'm not gonna repeat the whole list, but in Rules Compendium the author flat out admits that polymorph is broken because when authors design monsters, they don't take into consideration players using the monster's abilities. The logic extends to minions.

There are certainly edge cases. I won't deny that. That edge cases exist isn't an argument for moving anything up or down the tier list and even a commoner can access them with the right setup though that too is an edge case.

Minions are available to -everyone- and always were. I don't want to start that argument again but that's not even the power of the minion's master anyway. It's borrowed power. It's like saying a level 20 fighter has all the power of a level 18 wizard just because he can take leadership.


7hd forms aren't something to brag about. The higher hd forms are the gamebreakers.

Didn't you argue -against- this just a few posts back?


i.e. 12 headed hydra vs 7 headed hydra

Lol. Oh you're serious. Let me laugh even harder. LOL.

At level 12, a wizard polymporphed into a 12-headed hydra is swinging a +10 to-hit. A -minimally competent- fighter should be swinging no less than +20. Average AC at 12th level is 25.

I won't bother doing the rest of the math again but when it comes to combat, you need a -lot- more than just polymorph to keep up.


Phasm is 15hd which lets you turn into every single small, medium, and large creature in the game.

Okay, so it's not outright barred. That's my mistake. You still have to either wait 'til level 15 or build a -remarkably- specific psionicist to get it early -and- access -one- ASA trick at level 7; two instances of assume supernatural ability and +8 to ML. It's not impossible but it's not at all common either. Wilder 12 could just do it without bending his -entire- build around that one trick, even if it still eats most of his feats.


Madcrafter of Thoon is 10hd

and you've got to get around several extra hurdles to make it functional; telepathy, healing in obscene amounts, and the fact your minions are CR 6 for a trick that doesn't even come online until level 10. A level 14 boss encounter will scythe through them like wheat if it needs to interact with the mindless nothings at all.


War Troll is 12hd

+15 to hit against AC 25 if you're not a gish or stacking more buffs and now you only get 2 claws and a bite at +10. Better get you some -gear- if you're taking this shape.


Entangle is relevant at 9th level let alone 11th level? That's news to me.

-4 to dex and -2 to hit that can't be avoided, yeah. Yeah it is. Line of sight is -always- relevant from level 1 right up through 20. The -chance- to actually control enemy movement and do damage with the same spell is just icing. In point of fact, it isn't actually entanglement (I was trying to shorthand the details) and stacks with actual entanglement to make it -8 to dex and -4 to attack in total.


Nope. General Summon rules prevent summoned creatures from casting SLAs that replicate spells with costly components. There's a summon mirror mephit spell that's 2nd level as well. The only way you gonna use Mirror Mephit's abilities is either Improved Familiar, or Lesser Planar Binding. What level does a commoner have to be to compete with a Mirror Mephit in player hands?

He can bind his own mirror mephit with the same spell. Again, planar touchstone. This is the single, biggest problem with trying to hang a tier ranking on a single trick or even a bare handful; anyone can access the big ones pretty trivially.

I mean, polymorph is available without even magic through a gold dragonblood elixir. Since we like to take a mile when an inch as offered, the nature of that polymorph is unclear so let's say it's treated as a temporarily granted SLA or SU (doesn't matter which). As such, CL equals HD so you can be anything you've got the HD to make. Alternately, you -could- call it an extraordinary ability but then the CL for the effect is unclear. You -could- default to CL 7 per the standard minimum for the spell but then you're justifying caster supremacy by ruling in its favor.


It is, but I'm guessing I play at a higher optimization table than you. When I get to 9th level I'm doing all the OP stuff I mentioned with Planar Binding

Your GM softballing you doesn't make summon monster not a solid option. You're a minion specialist and you're missing good stuff to focus on either the extreme cheese or the redundant nonsense or options that are, hilariously, both.



Not Hydra, you use it with War Troll.

That's not a bad option. Still buff stacking. How many do you stack to make it to competent? Your to-hit is still pretty rough without more than just those two.



Actually I use it on my planar binding minions. A monster with reach and high strength like the Gargantuan Animated Object or an outsider with pounce like the Steel Predator with Girallon's Blessing is absolute murder especially when you get some of them persistent spells that give +1d6 to all attacks. They do like 200 damage a round at max BAB. My DM asked me to not use Girallon's Blessing on top of my polymorph and planar binding stuff.

Beater minions don't keep up with actual warriors. We covered that the last time we were discussing the matter. As I recall, we compared a steel predator to a minimally competent barbarian and the latter was the clearly superior fighter. If you buff them to hell and back, they can start to pull ahead of competent warriors but if the warrior optimizes as much as you're optimizing your buffing routine and minion game, then they surge well ahead again.


I think you think that Phasm is 16hd? It's 15hd so polymorph is enough.

At level 15, sure. You get it a level early and spent an extra feat for the privilege. La-dee-da. That or you've bent your entire build around this one trick and it's such a corner case that arguing it should matter for tiering is absurd.


With another outsider called a Rejkar with at-will fabricate!

Fabricate still needs material and a skill check to make anything but a simple figure. You could conjure a wall of iron and fabricate that, I suppose, but now you're up to 11 before this trick comes online and you -still- can't take gargantuan minions into small spaces or control what's animated by the ravid's ability.


They are mindless. Literally mindless. Polymorph into a thoon, use telepathy to program them to obey your human form and verbal commands. Done.

They lack language. You -cannot- verbally command them, period. And how exactly did you get telepathy? It's not exactly a common class ability. The go-to is mindbender but common advice is also to ban enchantment ahead of any other school except -maybe- evocation and if you went conjurer then you probably banned both. So that's skill points and a class level and/ or at least one feat to make this trick work at all. If you're a sorcerer, then choosing this path leaves you unable to much, if anything else, since buffing is strictly necessary for scythers to be worth anything after just a couple levels.




Nabassu. There are mountains and mountains of monsters out there, chances are everything you want is in a Su form somewhere. And Nabassu is not the only one. Basilisk Petrifying gaze is also Su iirc.

Death stealing gaze bestows negative levels and only to humanoids for a juvenile while a mature nabassu has to spend a standard action to make it an outright death effect and remove the humanoid limitation for one round... at level 15... in 10 feet. Cha based DC too. Hope you're a spont caster.

A basilisk's petrifying gaze is useless against the entire dragon type amongst other foes.

In both cases, they offer fort saves to negate and fort grows faster than either ref or will as you move up the CR table. Would you really spend one of your bare handful of feats on either of those?


Because you got a lot of them wrong or dismissed them upon the 1st obstacle of using said ability : P

I got -one- wrong, barely, and you're seriously underselling the obstacles to most of this.


Pit Fiends are 18hd cr20.

That's one. I'll give you 2 with the myrmyxicus. Name a third. If it exists at all, it's gonna be in the most obscure place imaginable.


Having a CR18 creature or multiple CR18 creatures is not OP enough for you? Some of them are crazy like Paeliryons with their at-will polymorph and meteor storm.

Earliest that's possible is 14 as a nar-demonbinder or 13 if you can cheese a domain onto an ur-priest. And again, there are exactly 2 outsiders that fit that description. Tulani eladrin's the other one.

As for meteor storm at a will, that looks good at first blush but its DC is -low- for its level and the ranged touch is gonna have issues with a -lot- of creatures, nevermind fire being the most commonly resisted element and the collateral of spamming 40ft fire bursts. The Tulani's empowered chain-lightning at will is actually dangerous if the foe isn't resistant but electricity is the most commonly -absorbed- element and while it's only the 3rd most common on energy resistance (only acid and sonic are less common), energy resistance is -really- common still.

Both being able to polymorph at will is pretty bonkers if you -can- direct them on what forms to use.


Of course, if you can get +8 to your ML for metamorphosis, getting the +4 for dictum to be rid of -any- of your called minions is pretty trivial, especially when major foes are likely to be higher level than you anyway. Same for banishment, dismissal, et al. That's without even considering environmental hazards and traps.

To answer your question though, no, that doesn't impress. As I said, it's not a unique capability. Anyone with a fat stack of cash and the will for it can do the same. What they -can't- do is the whole -myriad- of other things a caster can. Any of it, sure, but not all. That's the difference.

I'll also note that your strongest point here, the paeliryon and tulani, are only impactful because they give you access to spells with altered limits. Two blasting effects you could easily match if you build different and the same polymorph you could already do with a little bit better options than you since they've got a few HD on you unless you're cheesing the earliest possible use of GPB.

Otherwise they're just beaters and you could -definitely- build something better if you put the same effort into building a warrior that you've put into this minion stuff.

Hell, a master of many forms does literally -all- of it better if you're looking for pulling monster tricks out of your butt. WS ranger 5/ MoMF 10/ Warshaper 5 (not necessarily in that order) is -strictly- better at being a fighting monster than any standard caster just using polymorph even with a buff-stack usually; warrior gear + monster body + HD-based combat numbers = serious face-shredder.


I'm gonna stop here. I think I'm derailing the thread. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

If you don't respond to this, I have nothing left to say.