Do you need to make a craft check when creating Poisons with Minor Creation?

[magicalmagicman]

This is a debate going on in this thread:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613621-Psionic-Artificer-without-imitating-spells

And since the debate is going long, is off topic, and isn't going anywhere, I've decided to create a new thread to solicit your opinion.

So the people who say you do need to make the craft check are using these two rules found here:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm


The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created

Complex or superior item (lock) Varies 20

The first quote says the DC of an item is directly proportional to its complexity and nothing else. If an object is complex it has high craft DC. If an object is simple it has low craft DC.
The second quote says a complex item has a DC of 20.
So if we combine these two rules, then any object that has a craft DC of 20 or higher is a complex item and requires a craft check when created with Minor Creation.

Black Lotus Extract has a craft poison making DC of 35 (Complete Adventurer p.98), which is higher than 20, therefore Black Lotus Extract is a complex item and if you want to create it with Minor Creation, you need to provide a craft check.



Now, the one person in that thread who says you don't need to make a craft check to create Black Lotus Extract with Minor Creation is saying this.

Poisons are a single substance, not a complex item.

There's no craft DC necessary


I'm saying that a single substance can't be considered a complex item.

{Scrubbed}In fact, as shown above, the RAW says it doesn't matter whether something is a single substance or not. Complexity is measured solely by Craft DC and if the craft DC is greater than 20 it's a complex item regardless of whether it's a liquid or a single substance. {Scrubbed}


The examples of complexity are always structural. The examples which can be produced without a Craft check could be crafted, but their structures are too simple to qualify as "complex items".

Locks and arrows are the two example items which aren't "simple". Both feature a large number of different parts, and both feature parts which must be put together with precision. Arrows are a great example of a thing that's much easier to use than it is to construct. Locks are precision machinery whose operation depends on the quality of the construction.

It's not impossible to take a stab at the designer's intent -- simple objects are things like their example list (hemp rope, a wooden ladder, and so on) which could be constructed from a single substance and which does not need moving parts (lock), and doesn't need several different materials put together with precision (arrow).

Many poisons are just a single substance, and I can't think of a single one which includes moving parts, let alone precise machinery..


I've produced examples of things which are not called "complex items", and examples of things which are.

I've shown a reasonable way to interpret this distinction.

You are ignoring what the rules say in order to pretend there is no distinction.

I've got circumstantial evidence, and you've got no evidence.

Sure, my circumstantial argument isn't the strongest possible argument, and there are probably other ways to interpret the rules -- but what you're offering is not an alternate reading of the rules, it's just your own decision to ignore part of the examples.


As a DM, I need the confidence to change the rules when necessary, but to have that I need to first know what the rules say.

Here's what this rule says:


https://i.imgur.com/rFfk53a.jpg

The blue items don't demand a Craft check. They're what you get without a Craft check. The yellow item does require a Craft check. It's different. The book says it's different because it's a "complex item".

Can you explain the difference in a way that encompasses the other examples we've seen?

In summary, he is saying that because all the examples of complex items in RAW are structurally complex (such as a straight arrow shaft), it creates an inferred rule that only structurally complex items can be "complex", and liquids and other single substances cannot be considered "complex", regardless of what the RAW quotes provided above says.

So another user pointed out that if we use his logic, Minor Creation cannot create any liquids like Flasks of Vegetable Oil.
"Because all the examples of items in RAW created by Minor Creation are solid objects, it creates an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created by Minor Creation. Therefore liquids cannot be created by Minor Creation."

{Scrubbed}


Poisons can also come in powders and blocks. Inhaled poisons can't be liquids, for example. Asserting otherwise is illogical.

He agrees that because all examples of items created by Minor Creation in RAW are solid objects, it creates an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created by Minor Creation.



So this is where the debate is currently at, and I want to see what your opinions are on the matter.

So, in your opinion
1. Do the official examples given by the PHB regarding Minor Creation create an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created with Minor Creation? No liquids?
2. Do the official examples given by the PHB regarding Minor Creation create an inferred rule that only structurally complex items like a straight arrow shaft can be considered complex?
3. Do you need to make a craft check to create Poisons with Minor Creation?

My opinion is
1. No
2. No
3. Yes.
What's yours?

[el minster]

1. No, you can't infer a rule from an example.
2. No.
3. Yes, poisons are chemically complex.

[Gruftzwerg]

Most poisons in 3.5 fall under the category of bio-toxins which are made out of proteins. Some of them are simple (only 1 type of protein / attack method), others are complex (dozens of proteins / attack methods). You can look it up at wikipedia.

Which means, poisons can be simple and complex depending on the type/source. In our chase the craft DC determines if it is a complex poison or not I would assume.

The DC of 35 makes it obvious that it is a complex poison imho.

[Kayblis]

Complexity comes in many forms, not only structural. Carbon nanotubes are just materials, but they're complex enough to revolutionize an entire field of work when their creation method was discovered. Creating a 'carbon nanofiber' block would be Complex, even if you consider it "a material" like wood or meat. This idea that complexity is only structural is not substantiated by anything other than personal opinion.

1) No.
2) No.
3) Yes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. No.
2. No.
3. Not necessarily.

Poisons are assigned a price based on their power and thus accessibility. You shouldn't make a powerful poison cheap, just like you shouldn't make powerful magic items or spells available from a very low level. It can be written off as due to rarity of materials, but the true purpose is clear. Similarly, the DCs to craft poisons were arbitrarily assigned to gate accessibility, not to reflect on their actual complexity. Keep in mind that the high price means it takes a long time to craft, but a higher DC means you're making a lot more progress per day than a lower DC poison. It's possible that it's created via a slow distillation process which Minor Creation is able to skip, and that it's actually much simpler than the DC or the price would suggest.

There's a big difference between using Minor Creation to make a working stopwatch out of wood, and skipping the complex distillation process by creating the end result.

[el minster]

In D&D the higher the craft DC the more complex it is however the more expensive things are the harder they are to create unlike real life.

[newguydude1]

definition of vegetative matter
"matter produced by plants or growing in the manner of a plant."

matter includes liquids
apple is produce by plant
therefore apple juice is vegetative matter
therefore minor creation can create liquids
and the argument that examples make an inferred rule is nonsense. pure nonsense.

all examples of polymorph in phb are animals. does that create an inferred rule that says polymorph can only turn you into animals?
its just nonsense. pure nonsense.

so 1 is no

2 uses the exact same pure nonsense so 2 is also no

therefore 3 is yes


1. No.
2. No.
3. Not necessarily.

Poisons are assigned a price based on their power and thus accessibility. You shouldn't make a powerful poison cheap, just like you shouldn't make powerful magic items or spells available from a very low level. It can be written off as due to rarity of materials, but the true purpose is clear. Similarly, the DCs to craft poisons were arbitrarily assigned to gate accessibility, not to reflect on their actual complexity. Keep in mind that the high price means it takes a long time to craft, but a higher DC means you're making a lot more progress per day than a lower DC poison. It's possible that it's created via a slow distillation process which Minor Creation is able to skip, and that it's actually much simpler than the DC or the price would suggest.

There's a big difference between using Minor Creation to make a working stopwatch out of wood, and skipping the complex distillation process by creating the end result.

rules dont say complexity of distillation process influences craft dc. rules say craft dc is influenced only by complexity of the item. unless your reasoning trumps raw text it is incorrect.

[magicalmagicman]

Alright. So it's unanimous. There is not a chance in hell examples create an inferred rule.

3. is almost unanimously yes, with the exception of one person answering "not necessarily". But that person is only right if craft DC is affected by the distillation process, which it is not. And even if it was, there is no way to determine whether the distillation process of black lotus extract is complicated or not. So that's two reasons against.

[Rijan_Sai]

I've been following this since the other topic, and the one thing I've noticed is that everyone seems to be focused on the wrong word:

Complex or superior item (lock) Varies 20

So I agree with the

1) no
2) no
3) yes

not because (ie) Black Lotus Extract is necessarily "complex," it is without a doubt a "superior" item, and thus would still fall under the craft/Minor Creation rules.
(Double checked... it does seem that MC only mentions "complex" items; however that category is clearly bundled with "superior" in the Craft skill section. My point still stands.)

[Vaern]

One might argue that the poison itself is a simple substance, while the complexity of crafting a poison lies largely in the process of extracting and purifying of the toxic substance from its source. If you were creating the substance directly, it's arguable that the craft check may be unnecessary as you don't need to go through the extra steps of extracting the toxins from the plant and whatnot.
I'd still say yes, though, just because.

[el minster]

Even if you were right it's still superior.