magicalmagicman
2020-06-15, 09:27 PM
This is a debate going on in this thread:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613621-Psionic-Artificer-without-imitating-spells
And since the debate is going long, is off topic, and isn't going anywhere, I've decided to create a new thread to solicit your opinion.
So the people who say you do need to make the craft check are using these two rules found here:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm
The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created
Complex or superior item (lock) Varies 20
The first quote says the DC of an item is directly proportional to its complexity and nothing else. If an object is complex it has high craft DC. If an object is simple it has low craft DC.
The second quote says a complex item has a DC of 20.
So if we combine these two rules, then any object that has a craft DC of 20 or higher is a complex item and requires a craft check when created with Minor Creation.
Black Lotus Extract has a craft poison making DC of 35 (Complete Adventurer p.98), which is higher than 20, therefore Black Lotus Extract is a complex item and if you want to create it with Minor Creation, you need to provide a craft check.
Now, the one person in that thread who says you don't need to make a craft check to create Black Lotus Extract with Minor Creation is saying this.
Poisons are a single substance, not a complex item.
There's no craft DC necessary
I'm saying that a single substance can't be considered a complex item.
{Scrubbed}In fact, as shown above, the RAW says it doesn't matter whether something is a single substance or not. Complexity is measured solely by Craft DC and if the craft DC is greater than 20 it's a complex item regardless of whether it's a liquid or a single substance. {Scrubbed}
The examples of complexity are always structural. The examples which can be produced without a Craft check could be crafted, but their structures are too simple to qualify as "complex items".
Locks and arrows are the two example items which aren't "simple". Both feature a large number of different parts, and both feature parts which must be put together with precision. Arrows are a great example of a thing that's much easier to use than it is to construct. Locks are precision machinery whose operation depends on the quality of the construction.
It's not impossible to take a stab at the designer's intent -- simple objects are things like their example list (hemp rope, a wooden ladder, and so on) which could be constructed from a single substance and which does not need moving parts (lock), and doesn't need several different materials put together with precision (arrow).
Many poisons are just a single substance, and I can't think of a single one which includes moving parts, let alone precise machinery..
I've produced examples of things which are not called "complex items", and examples of things which are.
I've shown a reasonable way to interpret this distinction.
You are ignoring what the rules say in order to pretend there is no distinction.
I've got circumstantial evidence, and you've got no evidence.
Sure, my circumstantial argument isn't the strongest possible argument, and there are probably other ways to interpret the rules -- but what you're offering is not an alternate reading of the rules, it's just your own decision to ignore part of the examples.
As a DM, I need the confidence to change the rules when necessary, but to have that I need to first know what the rules say.
Here's what this rule says:
https://i.imgur.com/rFfk53a.jpg
The blue items don't demand a Craft check. They're what you get without a Craft check. The yellow item does require a Craft check. It's different. The book says it's different because it's a "complex item".
Can you explain the difference in a way that encompasses the other examples we've seen?
In summary, he is saying that because all the examples of complex items in RAW are structurally complex (such as a straight arrow shaft), it creates an inferred rule that only structurally complex items can be "complex", and liquids and other single substances cannot be considered "complex", regardless of what the RAW quotes provided above says.
So another user pointed out that if we use his logic, Minor Creation cannot create any liquids like Flasks of Vegetable Oil.
"Because all the examples of items in RAW created by Minor Creation are solid objects, it creates an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created by Minor Creation. Therefore liquids cannot be created by Minor Creation."
{Scrubbed}
Poisons can also come in powders and blocks. Inhaled poisons can't be liquids, for example. Asserting otherwise is illogical.
He agrees that because all examples of items created by Minor Creation in RAW are solid objects, it creates an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created by Minor Creation.
So this is where the debate is currently at, and I want to see what your opinions are on the matter.
So, in your opinion
1. Do the official examples given by the PHB regarding Minor Creation create an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created with Minor Creation? No liquids?
2. Do the official examples given by the PHB regarding Minor Creation create an inferred rule that only structurally complex items like a straight arrow shaft can be considered complex?
3. Do you need to make a craft check to create Poisons with Minor Creation?
My opinion is
1. No
2. No
3. Yes.
What's yours?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613621-Psionic-Artificer-without-imitating-spells
And since the debate is going long, is off topic, and isn't going anywhere, I've decided to create a new thread to solicit your opinion.
So the people who say you do need to make the craft check are using these two rules found here:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm
The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created
Complex or superior item (lock) Varies 20
The first quote says the DC of an item is directly proportional to its complexity and nothing else. If an object is complex it has high craft DC. If an object is simple it has low craft DC.
The second quote says a complex item has a DC of 20.
So if we combine these two rules, then any object that has a craft DC of 20 or higher is a complex item and requires a craft check when created with Minor Creation.
Black Lotus Extract has a craft poison making DC of 35 (Complete Adventurer p.98), which is higher than 20, therefore Black Lotus Extract is a complex item and if you want to create it with Minor Creation, you need to provide a craft check.
Now, the one person in that thread who says you don't need to make a craft check to create Black Lotus Extract with Minor Creation is saying this.
Poisons are a single substance, not a complex item.
There's no craft DC necessary
I'm saying that a single substance can't be considered a complex item.
{Scrubbed}In fact, as shown above, the RAW says it doesn't matter whether something is a single substance or not. Complexity is measured solely by Craft DC and if the craft DC is greater than 20 it's a complex item regardless of whether it's a liquid or a single substance. {Scrubbed}
The examples of complexity are always structural. The examples which can be produced without a Craft check could be crafted, but their structures are too simple to qualify as "complex items".
Locks and arrows are the two example items which aren't "simple". Both feature a large number of different parts, and both feature parts which must be put together with precision. Arrows are a great example of a thing that's much easier to use than it is to construct. Locks are precision machinery whose operation depends on the quality of the construction.
It's not impossible to take a stab at the designer's intent -- simple objects are things like their example list (hemp rope, a wooden ladder, and so on) which could be constructed from a single substance and which does not need moving parts (lock), and doesn't need several different materials put together with precision (arrow).
Many poisons are just a single substance, and I can't think of a single one which includes moving parts, let alone precise machinery..
I've produced examples of things which are not called "complex items", and examples of things which are.
I've shown a reasonable way to interpret this distinction.
You are ignoring what the rules say in order to pretend there is no distinction.
I've got circumstantial evidence, and you've got no evidence.
Sure, my circumstantial argument isn't the strongest possible argument, and there are probably other ways to interpret the rules -- but what you're offering is not an alternate reading of the rules, it's just your own decision to ignore part of the examples.
As a DM, I need the confidence to change the rules when necessary, but to have that I need to first know what the rules say.
Here's what this rule says:
https://i.imgur.com/rFfk53a.jpg
The blue items don't demand a Craft check. They're what you get without a Craft check. The yellow item does require a Craft check. It's different. The book says it's different because it's a "complex item".
Can you explain the difference in a way that encompasses the other examples we've seen?
In summary, he is saying that because all the examples of complex items in RAW are structurally complex (such as a straight arrow shaft), it creates an inferred rule that only structurally complex items can be "complex", and liquids and other single substances cannot be considered "complex", regardless of what the RAW quotes provided above says.
So another user pointed out that if we use his logic, Minor Creation cannot create any liquids like Flasks of Vegetable Oil.
"Because all the examples of items in RAW created by Minor Creation are solid objects, it creates an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created by Minor Creation. Therefore liquids cannot be created by Minor Creation."
{Scrubbed}
Poisons can also come in powders and blocks. Inhaled poisons can't be liquids, for example. Asserting otherwise is illogical.
He agrees that because all examples of items created by Minor Creation in RAW are solid objects, it creates an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created by Minor Creation.
So this is where the debate is currently at, and I want to see what your opinions are on the matter.
So, in your opinion
1. Do the official examples given by the PHB regarding Minor Creation create an inferred rule that only solid objects can be created with Minor Creation? No liquids?
2. Do the official examples given by the PHB regarding Minor Creation create an inferred rule that only structurally complex items like a straight arrow shaft can be considered complex?
3. Do you need to make a craft check to create Poisons with Minor Creation?
My opinion is
1. No
2. No
3. Yes.
What's yours?