Mindbender early entry

[Yogibear41]

Looking for a way to early entry into Mindbender at 3rd level for telepathy, already have Charm Person as a racial SLA CL = HD, is there anyway to boost the CL to 5th at 2hd, so I can take Mindbender at 3rd level?

[Ruethgar]

Bloodlines are not allowed to advance ECL so you could take Bloodline 47/Wizard 1/Mindbender 1 being ECL 1 with a CL of 48. Doubtful it advanced racial CL though.

Awakened Advanced Monkey Practiced Spellcaster Wizard 1/Mindbender 1.

[Yogibear41]

That's not true bloodlines count toward ECL. If they didn't there would be no reason not to take them on every character.

[Doctor Despair]

That's not true bloodlines count toward ECL. If they didn't there would be no reason not to take them on every character.

You are right that there is no real reason not to take them on every character. Bloodlines are worded very poorly.


Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

They only act as class levels in the ways specified. However, what does it mean to take a level of them if they don't increase ECL? There are only a few ways to interpret it reasonably within the rules, but each are equally valid.

1. You choose to take a bloodline level. It does not cost xp, nor does it affect your ECL. As you are at the appropriate xp to level up, you do so. Under these rules, bloodlines are literally free and have literally no cost to the character -- such is their poor wording.

2. You choose to take a bloodline level. It does not cost xp, nor does it affect your ECL. You must now reach the normal amount of experience to reach your next level, plus the increment you just completed (e.g., a level 1 character with 1,000 xp takes a bloodline level and now needs to reach 2,000 xp to reach level 2, as they did not level up to level 2 at the normal time, and there is an increment of 1,000 xp to reach ECL 2 after your most recent level up.) This is a more balanced interpretation, although still not a very steep cost for the boost to a number of stats.

There is also technically no rule disallowing you from taking all of the bloodlines at once, although I'd personally say that as cheesey as bloodlines are, that's a little too much for my taste. I limit myself to the #2 interpretation using only one bloodline at a time -- but you should understand that it is not RAW to have to operate under those limitations.

With that said, Mindbender requires...


Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Bluff 4 ranks , Diplomacy 4 ranks , Intimidate 4 ranks , Sense Motive 4 ranks
Spells: Able to cast charm person, use charm person as a spell-like ability, or use the charm invocation.
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th.

Unfortunately, this is a class from Complete Arcane, so we can't just meet the prereqs temporarily, take the class, and lose it afterward without losing the benefits of the class.

You can technically reach the skill requirements at level 1, providing you have 16 skillpoints to spend on class skills, or more if they aren't class skills. Alignment is easy to accomplish. Bloodlines advance caster level for class spells, so you only need 4 bloodline levels to have caster level 5 with Wizard 1 for your charm person.

If you're just trying to boost your SLA caster level and don't want to take a wizard dip... Primordial Half-Giant is a +1 LA option that grants you an (Ex) ability to use SLAs at +1 caster level. That would let you take it at level 5 instead of level 6, although that isn't helpful for your level 3 pick.

I'm not sure if Practiced Spellcaster would work here, as it is capped by HD, and bloodlines only advance your class level-based abilities, not HD-based, although those may often intersect.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about how prestige classes work in Complete Arcane, but if OP normally has CL4, but has CL5 with a temporary +1 bonus, after taking the Mindbender level, the class would self-qualify, since he currently meets the pre-requisited for the class, right?

If that's the case, you could use some means to gain temporary HD, such as intentionally contracting lycanthropy, having a bard use Inspire Greatness on you, or polymorphing into a barghest or a dusk giant, take the level in Mindbender, and lose the HD afterward, providing your caster level was high enough after the inclusion of the Mind Bender class. That would mean level 5 mind bender, or level 4 mind bender if you are a primordial giant...

Food for thought, anyway.

Something else I saw Thurbane mention in a 2018 thread is Elder Giant Magic. If you boost your skillcap with bloodlines (5 levels of bloodline ought to do it), and paying for a psychic reformation to shuffle things around, you could qualify for Elder Giant Magic. As a primordial half-giant, that would let you cast your SLA at +5 caster level. However, in order to retain the benefits of the feat, you'd have to retain those 9 ranks in spellcraft, increasing your total skillpoints required to 25 (or a normal skillpoint distribution of 7/level, which is very possible, but something to be aware of). Also something to be aware of: it's a lot simpler to just have an arcane caster level and boost it with bloodline levels at this point. :p

[Troacctid]

Boosting the caster level of SLAs is a lot harder than boosting the caster level of spells (unless you have a generous DM)—but more importantly, even boosted, it may not meet the prerequisites of mindbender, because mindbender calls for an arcane caster level. Per Complete Mage, most SLAs are neither arcane nor divine.

[Doctor Despair]

... Per Complete Mage, most SLAs are neither arcane nor divine.

That's interesting. So that would suggest that the "Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th" is an oversight on the writer's part, as it would be impossible to meet the second prerequisite?

[Gruftzwerg]

That's interesting. So that would suggest that the "Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th" is an oversight on the writer's part, as it would be impossible to meet the second prerequisite?

That is referring to Warlocks and DFAs. They use SLAs and count as arcane casters. Their SLAs are an exception to regular SLAs.

edit:

@Troacctid

I can't find the page, could you help me out where the passage with the "SLAs are not divine/arcane" is? or could you quote it?^^

[Gruftzwerg]

Looking for a way to early entry into Mindbender at 3rd level for telepathy, already have Charm Person as a racial SLA CL = HD, is there anyway to boost the CL to 5th at 2hd, so I can take Mindbender at 3rd level?

As far as I know of, only by breaking the WBL:

Orange Ioun Stone (30k) and a Ring of Arcane Might (20k) each give a +1 to clvl, combined with Create Magic Tattoo (e.g. from a scroll) which can add another +1 for a total of +3clvl

While this won't work out with your racial SLA as mentioned by Troacctid, you could enter as 2nd lvl arcane caster (sorcerer/wizard) and push your clvl up to 5 for the day you want to enter the prc.

You could ask your DM if you can borrow/rent the items (stone & ring) for the day you want to lvl up and buy the scroll. But I can see how many DMs won't be happy about such cheesy entries^^. good luck ;)

[Thurbane]

Looking for a way to early entry into Mindbender at 3rd level for telepathy, already have Charm Person as a racial SLA CL = HD, is there anyway to boost the CL to 5th at 2hd, so I can take Mindbender at 3rd level?

One cheesy way to do it: the Practiced Magic feat (from Shackled City) boosts CL for SLAs up to +4, to a maximum of your HD.

Take the feat, and contract lycanthropy, which will give you extra HD (and hence boost the CL of your SLA).

Once your natural HD/levels are high enough to qualify for Mindbender, get yourself cured of lycanthropy, and lose the unwanted HD.


I can't find the page, could you help me out where the passage with the "SLAs are not divine/arcane" is? or could you quote it?^^

Complete Mage, page 7: "Arcane Versus Innate" (discussing SLAs).


This magical potential doesn't seem to have any clear link either to arcane magic or to divine magic, though it creates results similar or identical to those arising from spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Honestly, anything that would temporarily give you the CL required to qualify is 100% metagaming and should never be allowed at any table. Characters have zero in-character knowledge of character levels or experience points, wouldn't have any way of knowing that they're about to level up, and wouldn't have any idea when or for how long to borrow items or engage in other temporary CL-boosting shenanigans. This is one of the main reasons why DMs should keep xp totals hidden or just do milestones to prevent exactly this type of thing.

[ShurikVch]

Aristocrat
Hidden Talent: Charm, Psionic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/charmPsionic.htm)
Pay to get arcane Imbue with Spell Ability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm) cast on you
Done!

Alternately:
Be a Wizard
Take Spell Mastery (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial) for Charm Person spell
Sell your spellbook
Pay for arcane Imbue with Spell Ability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm)
Done!

[Gruftzwerg]

Honestly, anything that would temporarily give you the CL required to qualify is 100% metagaming and should never be allowed at any table. Characters have zero in-character knowledge of character levels or experience points, wouldn't have any way of knowing that they're about to level up, and wouldn't have any idea when or for how long to borrow items or engage in other temporary CL-boosting shenanigans. This is one of the main reasons why DMs should keep xp totals hidden or just do milestones to prevent exactly this type of thing.

Sure it is meta gaming, but if that is ok or not depends on the optimization lvl of the table.

Further, imho these kind of thing can be cool rp hooks. Having to perform some kind of magic ritual to start your new career as superhero/-villan is nothing unheard of.
Cheating exams at an academy with wealth is similar. These things happen even in real life. While I was studying informatics, we where allowed to have a "calculator" at the math exams. The point is, that you can have a calculator for around 20-40$ or you can have a super calculator for around 300-400$ (2nd hand still over 200+$) which you can programm (ty internet^^) for any formula you might need in the exam.
And here is the clue, several people rented (!) one of these special calculators. The calculators where totally out of the WBL (or to expensive for a single item for your lvl^^) of those students. But due to the fact that some rented these calculators (or even took temporary credit, to buy and resell it later), they could pass certain requirements easier/earlier than they might have without it.
There you have real life metagaming.. Is it really that bad to do the same in d&d?^^

[Thurbane]

Sure it is meta gaming, but if that is ok or not depends on the optimization lvl of the table.

Further, imho these kind of thing can be cool rp hooks. Having to perform some kind of magic ritual to start your new career as superhero/-villan is nothing unheard of.
Cheating exams at an academy with wealth is similar. These things happen even in real life. While I was studying informatics, we where allowed to have a "calculator" at the math exams. The point is, that you can have a calculator for around 20-40$ or you can have a super calculator for around 300-400$ (2nd hand still over 200+$) which you can programm (ty internet^^) for any formula you might need in the exam.
And here is the clue, several people rented (!) one of these special calculators. The calculators where totally out of the WBL (or to expensive for a single item for your lvl^^) of those students. But due to the fact that some rented these calculators (or even took temporary credit, to buy and resell it later), they could pass certain requirements easier/earlier than they might have without it.
There you have real life metagaming.. Is it really that bad to do the same in d&d?^^

Agree completely - the appropriateness of metagaming etc. depends entirely on the group and their play styles.

[Yogibear41]

I'm sorry but saying bloodline levels don't increase your ECL is a huge stretch. They are literally "levels"

"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters."

Its almost exactly the same thing as taking a template class that has levels that don't grant a hit dice.

No where in the description does it say they don't affect your ECL, and therefore by virtue of being "levels" do.

[Doctor Despair]

No where in the description does it say they don't affect your ECL, and therefore by virtue of being "levels" do.


Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

By RAW, they do not increase ECL. There is room for debate about how they work, certainly, but one of the few things we do know for sure is that they do not increase ECL, as it explicitly says that.

[AmberVael]

2. You choose to take a bloodline level. It does not cost xp, nor does it affect your ECL. You must now reach the normal amount of experience to reach your next level, plus the increment you just completed (e.g., a level 1 character with 1,000 xp takes a bloodline level and now needs to reach 2,000 xp to reach level 2, as they did not level up to level 2 at the normal time, and there is an increment of 1,000 xp to reach ECL 2 after your most recent level up.) This is a more balanced interpretation, although still not a very steep cost for the boost to a number of stats.

This old weirdness again?

There's no text, no language, no rules that even mention anything like this. I get why people interpret bloodlines as not counting towards ECL and how that makes the entire system funky, but the various manipulations of XP and leveling that people subscribe to instead aren't based in the text. It's inaccurate to describe it as a valid interpretation of the rules.

[Doctor Despair]

This old weirdness again?

There's no text, no language, no rules that even mention anything like this. I get why people interpret bloodlines as not counting towards ECL and how that makes the entire system funky, but the various manipulations of XP and leveling that people subscribe to instead aren't based in the text. It's inaccurate to describe it as a valid interpretation of the rules.

You're right that the first interpretation is the more RAW-based of the two, and that the second interpretation is based on an inference that the increment between levels should be static, as there is nothing in bloodlines that modifies that. It is also predicated on an inference that the normal xp-level chart is detailing the amount of XP needed to reach your next level from your current ECL, and that normally level and ECL would be the same (without racial hitdie, LA, or templates modifying it), but by taking a bloodline level, you are supplanting your ability to take a class level without raising yourself to the next ECL level on the chart. It's based on the tacit understanding that when you reach that point on the XP chart, you take a class level, and that by taking a class level in bloodline, you have not taken a class level in a different class.

There are no rules saying that you cannot take a level at the same time as a bloodline level, but the bloodlines entry does describe what happens when you do not have the required amount of bloodline levels, which implies that it is possible to take class levels without taking bloodline levels. If X, then Y does not conclusively prove that If Y, then X, so this does not show that you are able to take a bloodline level without taking a class level, but it does prove that they are not the same thing, and the text suggests that there is a situation where a character might choose not to take all their bloodline levels at ECL 1 for some reason, which suggests that there may be a cost we are meant to apply to it. However, as bloodlines do NOT count towards your ECL, the second interpretation would be one of the only ways to apply some sort of cost to it without completely violating RAW, although as I said before, I think it is more clear-cut to just rule them as free, as the second interpretation is based on two big inferences based on rules text, but are not in themselves based on rules text.

However, if someone was vehemently opposed to bloodline levels being free, but didn't want to completely invent a house ruled cost that directly contradicts the text saying they do not contribute to ECL, the second interpretation would be a reasonable way to include a cost without violating any of the rules associated with them. If we're at the point where someone was considering house rules though, an XP cost would probably be a more elegant system, since it doesn't require the player to permanently modify their XP table for all future levels.

[AmberVael]

You're right that the first interpretation is the more RAW-based of the two

The first interpretation is my five-year-old attempt to reductio ad absurdum this entire XP shenanigan interpretation out of existence. :smalltongue:

It wasn't a serious reading of the rules, but instead an extrapolation of what happens when it's argued that bloodline levels don't add to ECL.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

and the text suggests that there is a situation where a character might choose not to take all their bloodline levels at ECL 1 for some reason, which suggests that there may be a cost we are meant to apply to it. However, as bloodlines do NOT count towards your ECL, the second interpretation would be one of the only ways to apply some sort of cost to it without completely violating RAW, although as I said before, I think it is more clear-cut to just rule them as free, as the second interpretation is based on two big inferences based on rules text, but are not in themselves based on rules text.

However, if someone was vehemently opposed to bloodline levels being free, but didn't want to completely invent a house ruled cost that directly contradicts the text saying they do not contribute to ECL, the second interpretation would be a reasonable way to include a cost without violating any of the rules associated with them. If we're at the point where someone was considering house rules though, an XP cost would probably be a more elegant system, since it doesn't require the player to permanently modify their XP table for all future levels.

...this is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that bloodline levels not cost XP and that them being free makes any sense at all. :smallconfused:

I think it's pretty clear what "class levels in 'bloodline' do not increase ECL" means: you take a level in Bloodline, paying XP as normal for leveling in any class, but your ECL remains the same for XP calculations going forward. It's exactly the same kind of pay-XP-as-you-go ECL-juggling discussed in the LA Buyoff section of UA (just a few pages away from the bloodline section).

Example A) A character without a bloodline is a Fighter 1, ECL 1, with 0 XP. After gaining 1,000 XP (current ECL 1 × 1000), they take a second Fighter level, and are now Fighter 2, ECL 2, with 1,000 XP. After gaining 2,000 more XP (current ECL 2 × 1000), they take a third Fighter level, and are now Fighter 3, ECL 3, with 3,000 XP. After gaining 3,000 more XP (current ECL 3 × 1000), they take a fourth Fighter level, and are now Fighter 4, ECL 4, with 6,000 XP. After gaining 4,000 more XP (current ECL 4 × 1000), they take a fifth Fighter level, and are now Fighter 5, ECL 5, with 10,000 XP. And so on.

Example B) A character with a bloodline is a Fighter 1, ECL 1, with 0 XP. After gaining 1,000 XP (current ECL 1 × 1000), they take a second Fighter level, and are now Fighter 2, ECL 2, with 1,000 XP. After gaining 2,000 more XP (current ECL 2 × 1000), they choose to take a Bloodline level, and are now Fighter 2/Bloodline 1, ECL 2, with 3,000 XP. After gaining 2,000 more XP (current ECL 2 × 1000), they take a third Fighter level, and are now Fighter 3/Bloodline 1, ECL 3, with 5,000 XP. After gaining 3,000 more XP (current ECL 3 × 1000), they choose to take another Bloodline level, and are now Fighter 3/Bloodline 2, ECL 3, with 8,000 XP. And so on.

Example C) A character with no bloodline but with a level adjustment is a LA 1/Fighter 1, ECL 2, with 1,000 XP. After gaining 2,000 XP (current ECL 2 × 1000), they take a second Fighter level, and are now LA 1/Fighter 2, ECL 3, with 3,000 XP. After gaining 3,000 more XP (current ECL 3 × 1000), they take a third Fighter level, and are now LA 1/Fighter 3, ECL 4, with 6,000 XP. After gaining 3,000 more XP, they can buy off their LA to end up as a Fighter 3, ECL 3, with an accumulated total of 9,000 XP and a current total of 6,000 XP. After gaining 3,000 more XP (current ECL 3 × 1000), they take a fourth Fighter level, and are now Fighter 4, ECL 4, with an accumulated total of 12,000 XP and a current total of 9,000 XP. And so on.

The obvious reason why you wouldn't take all your bloodline levels between ECL 1 and ECL 2 is that if you do that you end up as a [Class] 1/Bloodline 3 PC in a party with a bunch of [Class] 3 PCs, stretching out the incredibly squishiness of 1st-level PCs for several levels and making it quite likely you don't live long enough to enjoy the fruits of your bloodline(s).

The other reason, of course, would be that you have a major bloodline and (A) don't expect the campaign to go past 5th level at the latest or (B) are starting at a high enough level that you never have to experience the squishiness of low levels, in which case, yes, a bloodline is basically free power...but there are a bunch of other tricks you can pull if you know a campaign has a limited shelf life or you can tailor your build at high levels without ever having to play through the lower ones, so bloodlines are hardly unique there.


Speaking anecdotally, I'm currently running a campaign where custom bloodlines are a key hereditary feature of the nobility in the same way dragonmarks are a key hereditary feature of Eberron's Dragonmarked Houses, so I'm not only allowing PCs to take bloodlines but mandating them for PCs with a noble background. Yes, some PCs are mildly abusing bloodline levels for CL stacking and early entry, but only about half the party is going that route and the ones that are haven't piled on the bloodline levels early because dying more easily and delaying actual class features by a few thousand XP is no picnic, and the PCs with bloodlines aren't outshining the ones without them because casters getting spells and martial types getting class features more than makes up for the bloodline benefits, so bloodlines aren't a no-brainer for every PC.

[AmberVael]

...this is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that bloodline levels not cost XP and that them being free makes any sense at all. :smallconfused:

I think it's pretty clear what "class levels in 'bloodline' do not increase ECL" means: you take a level in Bloodline, paying XP as normal for leveling in any class, but your ECL remains the same for XP calculations going forward. It's exactly the same kind of pay-XP-as-you-go ECL-juggling discussed in the LA Buyoff section of UA (just a few pages away from the bloodline section).

This isn't how XP works, is the problem. XP is not something you spend to level up, it is an accumulating meter. That's why any rules that do spend XP (spells, item creation) spell out that you can't lose enough XP to lose a level - you still have it.

Therefore, for bloodlines to cost XP it would need to be explicitly spelled out. It isn't.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This isn't how XP works, is the problem. XP is not something you spend to level up, it is an accumulating meter. That's why any rules that do spend XP (spells, item creation) spell out that you can't lose enough XP to lose a level - you still have it.

Therefore, for bloodlines to cost XP it would need to be explicitly spelled out. It isn't.

Again, you're explicitly "taking a level in 'bloodline'" just like you "take a level in 'fighter'" or whatever. You'll note in the examples I gave only LA buyoff has you "spending" XP and differentiates between current and accumulated XP; bloodlines just use total accumulated XP as normal. The pay-XP-as-you-go bit was just referring to the fact that you're taking detours from your normal class(es) at fixed intervals like you do with LA buyoff instead of frontloading the cost like normal LA.

[Nifft]

Bloodlines seem unfinished to the point of being nonfunctional unless you write the unfinished bits yourself, at which point the result would be homebrew.

(Nothing wrong with homebrew, of course.)



@Yogibear41 - What are your first two levels?