(3.5) Stealing Brains?

[Curelomosaurus]

The SRD for Sleight of Hand says the following:

"If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item." (emphasis mine)

Book of Vile Darkness introduces humanoid bones, brains, hands, eyes, and hearts as items that can be bought and sold (with the intention of using them to fuel spells).

Unless I'm missing something (which is possible, given that terms like "item" can be rather poorly defined by RAW), it looks like a rogue with a decent Sleight of Hand score could use this to frickin' steal his enemies' body parts in combat, allowing them to remove enemies' ability to see, hold things, and/or continue to live.

Obviously, this isn't RAI, and no sane DM would allow this in a serious campaign... but for theoretical optimization, this could be a way for even a first-level halfling rogue with 20 Dex and Skill Focus to reliably one-shot any humanoid enemy. So does this work by RAW?

[el minster]

well you can't steal held items so you could say brains are held by your skull?

[exelsisxax]

No part of any creature is an item, and therefore none can be stolen. You also can't steal armor due to being a worn item, this would go even further than that.

[The Viscount]

If you did do this, someone could counter back that if you're not removing their heart or brain with specific effects (such as heart ripper or decerebrate) that this doesn't affect them. Assuming we're in a pure RAW world, that is.

[Doctor Despair]

well you can't steal held items so you could say brains are held by your skull?

Is that true? Sleight of hand says...



Check
A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object...

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body...

Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity...

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.


So as per the skill, you can use slight of hand to hide:


A coin-sized, unattended object

A small object (or smaller, as the text implies further on)

An object possessed by another creature


It seems like you can try to lift small or smaller held or worn objects off of other creatures with a flat DC 20 skillcheck to do so, and an opposed roll to do so without being noticed, subject to circumstantial modifiers of course.

That would mean we'd have to determine the size of a brain, however...

Unless there's some sort of additional rules text precluding taking held or worn items from creatures, the "unattended" clause seems to specifically apply to the "palming a coin" use case.


If you did do this, someone could counter back that if you're not removing their heart or brain with specific effects (such as heart ripper or decerebrate) that this doesn't affect them. Assuming we're in a pure RAW world, that is.

That's a fair point; we'd have to find some sort of splatbook rules for dismemberment, or make a case for why this effect should be treated as lethal using similar effects, as I doubt there's many hard rules on the effects of removing the brain or heart in a fantasy setting that aren't just assumed.

The same could be said for taking a character's eyes or tongue, I suppose, although I think the onus may fall on the other side to explain what rules enable them to see without eyes or speak without a tongue in that case.

Edit: I suppose there's a case to be made for having rules saying that your character can speak X language, with no prerequisite for having a tongue or otherwise, or having Darkvision X, with no prerequisite for having eyes, even though the creature does happen to have eyes. It's a silly thought, but then again, so is using SoH to snatch random body parts.

[Quertus]

I'm loving the image of an Illithid Savant with literally brainless minions, going around stealing and eating people's brains without anyone noticing. :smallamused:

[daremetoidareyo]

Brain has full cover.

You're gonna need to see through to the brain. Ring of x-ray vision?

Then, the spinal column is your problem. It adds mass and volume, and doesn't tear from the brain as neatly as you might hope.
So you'll need to cut it, and that's the kind of stuff that gets into attack roll territory. Unless it's a tiny creature. Then you could, in theory only, pluck brains like cherries from a bush on a stroll.

[Curelomosaurus]

Even if there's no RAW effect of having your body parts removed, you could at least use it to steal the hearts of girls you meet... :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

You cannot say "RAW let's me do this!" and then follow up with "By common sense, that would mean this effect."

One or the other.

[Toliudar]

Then, the spinal column is your problem. It adds mass and volume, and doesn't tear from the brain as neatly as you might hope.

Please never tell me how you know this.

[Curelomosaurus]

Actually, page 27 of the DMG lists penalties for damage to specific areas. So while the act of stealing someone's hands or eyes wouldn't hurt them, you could stab said body parts at any later time to blind them and give a -2 penalty on attack rolls and lots of skill checks.

Plus, in line with Quertus' comment, you could steal your party member's brains. That way, if the party gets TPK'd by illithids, you can at least get the last laugh as your murderers are deprived of a tasty snack.

This could also be a convenient way for crit-fishers to get access to the stump knife (A&EG) without making a mess.

[Buufreak]

Please never tell me how you know this.

Never took anatomy 101, I take it?

[Toliudar]

Never took anatomy 101, I take it?

It was the "doesn't tear from the brain as easily as you might hope" part that I was referencing.

[Buufreak]

It was the "doesn't tear from the brain as easily as you might hope" part that I was referencing.

I assumed. Still, a brain is attached by a series of neurological cords to the spine, and understanding that is like step 1 of neuro science.

[Doctor Despair]

I assumed. Still, a brain is attached by a series of neurological cords to the spine, and understanding that is like step 1 of neuro science.

As an English teacher, I can't say this authoritatively, but I am not particularly inclined to believe that a 101 class would teach you how difficult it is to rip a brain from its spinal-connections. Definitely a higher knowledge check than just knowing that there are connections - at least +5 to the DC.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Book of Vile Darkness introduces humanoid bones, brains, hands, eyes, and hearts as items that can be bought and sold (with the intention of using them to fuel spells).

Unless I'm missing something (which is possible, given that terms like "item" can be rather poorly defined by RAW), it looks like a rogue with a decent Sleight of Hand score could use this to frickin' steal his enemies' body parts in combat, allowing them to remove enemies' ability to see, hold things, and/or continue to live.

A corpse is an item. It became an item when it stopped walking around and attacking people.

I feel like your idea might work by RAW, but that's only because the rules failed to account for people who needed all the common workings and assumptions of the English language re-explained to them. It's a bit like saying sleight of hand let's you take an item, while in an example of skill use in another book it says the survival skill let's you start a fire by taking ten, so obviously taking can mean setting on fire, so sleight of hand lets you start fires.

[Buufreak]

As an English teacher, I can't say this authoritatively, but I am not particularly inclined to believe that a 101 class would teach you how difficult it is to rip a brain from its spinal-connections. Definitely a higher knowledge check than just knowing that their are connections - at least +5 to the DC.

Semi accurate. Your basic anatomy 101 should at least cover brain bone connect to the neck bone, and go into detail about squamous, fibrous, and other various tissues.

Perhaps I'm more saying that should you have taken such a class, the information is there for one to derive the conclusion of removing a brain is messy.

[daremetoidareyo]

As an English teacher, I can't say this authoritatively, but I am not particularly inclined to believe that a 101 class would teach you how difficult it is to rip a brain from its spinal-connections. Definitely a higher knowledge check than just knowing that their are connections - at least +5 to the DC.

If you prepare your food from the point that it's alive to the point that it's dinner, you'll quickly learn the frustration that is connective tissue.

It's from the standpoint of butchering. Which is basically applied anatomy. So i guess the knowledge checks make sense, but survival seems like a shew-in

[el minster]

Semi accurate. Your basic anatomy 101 should at least cover brain bone connect to the neck bone, and go into detail about squamous, fibrous, and other various tissues.

Perhaps I'm more saying that should you have taken such a class, the information is there for one to derive the conclusion of removing a brain is messy.

Yeah, but don't expect anyone to just know how to precisly remove peoples brains and what effect that would have.

[Buufreak]

Yeah, but don't expect anyone to just know how to precisly remove peoples brains and what effect that would have.

... the effect is dead, for anyone missing that lecture. Creatures missing brains are dead.

[Saintheart]

As always, there are magic items to do this with.

The Flayer from Complete Psionic is a Heavy Fail that on a critical hit extracts the target's brain, killing it outright provided the creature has a brain at all.

The Extractor Globe from Dragon 308 does the same in that it's a returning weapon that you throw at a dude, if it does a critical hit, it again extract's the target's brain, killing it provided it actually has a brain.

As these abilities are conditioned on critical hits, one assumes the list of creatures unable to have brains extracted include robots, moving corpses, shrubbery, gatherings of mosquitoes.

One also assumes that in accordance with ancient tradition, anyone engaged in the practice of law also is immune to these devices.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The skull completely encompasses the brain, and so you cannot remove the brain without either removing or bypassing a portion of the skull and surrounding tissues.

If you can go incorporeal or ethereal, you could reach inside the skull and attempt to rip the brain out. Of course, you'd have to turn the brain likewise incorporeal or ethereal to pull it through the skull. Depending on the effect, this would require a touch attack roll against whatever size category the creature's brain would be, a saving throw to turn it ethereal (or to affect it by turning corporeal/material), and a Strength check (while incorporeal, which I don't think is possible) to try and rip it from its home out through the skull. And if you want to do all this while unnoticed (to prevent AoOs and such), a successful Sleight of Hand check. And all while bypassing whatever defenses the target might have against these sorts of attacks. And if it has ghost touch on its unarmed strike (see: headbutt)...

So it's not entirely as simple as one might expect.

[Quertus]

As always, there are magic items to do this with.

The Flayer from Complete Psionic is a Heavy Fail that on a critical hit extracts the target's brain, killing it outright provided the creature has a brain at all.

The Extractor Globe from Dragon 308 does the same in that it's a returning weapon that you throw at a dude, if it does a critical hit, it again extract's the target's brain, killing it provided it actually has a brain.

As these abilities are conditioned on critical hits, one assumes the list of creatures unable to have brains extracted include robots, moving corpses, shrubbery, gatherings of mosquitoes.

One also assumes that in accordance with ancient tradition, anyone engaged in the practice of law also is immune to these devices.

Aren't there ways to score crits on those usually immune? Ranger chosen enemy tricks, maybe?

Would this let you extract brains from oozes / trees, killing them?

[Evoker]

Aren't there ways to score crits on those usually immune? Ranger chosen enemy tricks, maybe?

Would this let you extract brains from oozes / trees, killing them?

Probably yes. Justification: decerebrate functions on an ooze/plant creature just fine. The target is (one living creature), so if you target a tree and they fail their save, you extract a portion of their brain. This, trees must A: have brains, and B: need them.

[Saintheart]

Aren't there ways to score crits on those usually immune? Ranger chosen enemy tricks, maybe?

Would this let you extract brains from oozes / trees, killing them?


Probably yes. Justification: decerebrate functions on an ooze/plant creature just fine. The target is (one living creature), so if you target a tree and they fail their save, you extract a portion of their brain. This, trees must A: have brains, and B: need them.

Correct on both. There are a limited number of ways to get over critical immunity - at least, limited compared to the number of options for rider effects on criticals and whatnot. The MIC has weapon crystals that afford the ability to impose criticals on the undead and constructs, and Deathstrike Bracers allow you 3/day to basically critically hit anything immune bar a swarm.

In the ranger favored enemy space, what you're probably thinking is the feat Supernatural Blow which is an unupdated and therefore still available 3.0 feat from Masters of the Wild. It basically says "pick one critical-immune favored enemy. Now your weapon does a d6 of damage for every bonus damage dice you otherwise would have thrown on a critical hit." Which means that for, say, a greatsword with a x4 multiplier via kaorti resin, you can damage undead on a critical for 2d6 + STR + 6d6 or so - because you would have thrown 6 bonus damage dice on the critical hit otherwise.

Flayer and the Extractor Globe are both explicitly classed as weapons, so anything that allows you as the wielder of them to override a target's immunity to critical hits might/possibly/likely overrides any restriction in their texts that they don't function on creatures immune to critical hits.

[ixrisor]

Probably yes. Justification: decerebrate functions on an ooze/plant creature just fine. The target is (one living creature), so if you target a tree and they fail their save, you extract a portion of their brain. This, trees must A: have brains, and B: need them.

A tree is not actually a living creature - it’s a living object, as it has no charisma or wisdom scores


This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

[Evoker]

A tree is not actually a living creature - it’s a living object, as it has no charisma or wisdom scores

Oh. Well, same logic applies to treants/golems/oozes, though. Right?

[loky1109]

There aren't brains and hearts inside your enemy's, there are only HP.
To do something with brains or hearts you need to have any ability that affects brains or hearts and it is written in its description.