Whats the most powerful wizard build?

[Max Caysey]

So guys... the druid I've been asking about is out. The concept went down the drain, so the new deal is a full wizard party. I'm not entirely sure what route to go, but we already have one who wants to play a conjurer (battlefield controller) following Treantmonk's guide... another is going enchanter/ diplomancer and the last is contemplating a transmuter incantatrix... So I'm fairly uncertain what I want to play but I think I lean more towards a generalist wizard.

Our backstory will be that we are class mates from the same wizarding school. Never heard of that before I know... groundbreaking stuff... Maybe someone should write 7 books about that!?:smallbiggrin:

Anywho, we still start at level 4, everything official (except eberron) is good. I really want to play a highly optimized wizard. Naturally being 4 of us, there are no mundanes to not over-shine. Obviously, I'm not interested in breaking the game, but I want to really push the power.

I expect the party to probably fizzle out at about level 15, so the build can't be something that comes online after that... There has to be some here and now benefits to it... fairly soon - preferably before level 10...

I have been looking at that Team Solar (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)) wizards, but I'm unsure if that build would bring anything to the plate before level 18 and even then, I'm unsure if its good without all the other party-members and their very specific setups...

So like, what is a super super strong wizard build, which is non of the above characters' specializations?


Cheers!

[el minster]

Don't play a wizard do something similar but different like a bard or a wu jen or a beguler or something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Elven generalist into spelldancer is pretty solid. You get a metamagic reducer and extra slots with no banned schools. The taxes are a little rough though. Add a little archmage later on for some neat tricks.

Now I know you said no Eberron but I wouldn't feel right without mentioning the recaster from Races of Eberron. Note that the changeling race is in MM3 and that RoE says in its intro that it's intended to make those options available to all games, not just Eberron games.

The recaster gets to really play with the normal parameters of their spells in a a way that even a metamagic specialist of any other race would struggle to emulate.

It's at least theoretically possible to combine these with the racial emulation feat if flaws are on the table or you don't mind entering one or the other PrC late.

[Maat Mons]

Hmm... Illusionist can be cool... but its coolest thing is Shadowcraft Mage, which doesn't come online until level 10, and steps on the toes of the Conjurer.

Necromancers can have a bunch of minnions. And the Unearthed Arcana variant gives you a handy Skeletal Minion. Maybe take the Domain Granted Power ACF at 5th level for the Deathbound domain, upping your control limit to 3x caster level.

(Edit: Nija-ed) You could try being an Elven Generalist. You only get an extra spell per day for your highest level of spells, instead of for each level of spells. But you don't have to give up any schools. Also, you can double the bonus granted by your familiar. If your DM lets non-Conjurers take Hummingbird, that's +8 initiative. If not, there's still Rhamphorhynchus, which gets you to +6 initiative. ... Or go for one of the many +2 Fort save ones, and wind up with +4 Fort.

It may be a little cheesy, but you could combine Abyssal Specialist with that ACF from Dragon that makes all your spells Chaotic (or Evil, if you swing that way). That means every spell you can cast is considered to be in your specialized "school." You still have to select a prohibited school, but only one.

[Gusmo]

Does it still count as a wizard if you take some illithid savant levels? :P

[el minster]

remember to call yourself a wizard you don't have to have actual wizard levels the same is true for most classes

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most Powerful™ IMO would be Conjurer into Incantatrix 4+ into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. That's if you only want raw powah.

Going for thematic builds, a (whisper) gnome Illusionist into Shadowcraft Mage is still extremely powerful if you have an encyclopedic knowledge of spells you can emulate with Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. There's a few handbooks for this, be sure to use Earth Spell.

An Abjurer into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is also really good given the defensive capabilities, but I'm not a fan of specializing in Abjuration unless you can somehow use Prismatic Walls offensively.

The most capable would be something like an Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Wizard-advancing PrCs 5, using flaws to get Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, and a metamagic feat before 6th level, as well as getting Versatile Spellcaster. UM advances the class with the lower caster level so thanks to Krau and Practiced Spellcaster, all ten UM levels can be applied to Wizard. With Able Learner you can keep up your ranks in all your favorite Beguiler skills (Illumians have the Human subtype), so this can even be the party's trapmonkey. You'll eventually get Beguiler 8 spellcasting, which gives you tons of tools for solving any problem the party runs into, and you can spend a 4th level Beguiler slot to Quicken a 5th level or lower Wizard spell thanks to UM. Be sure to apply the UM caster level bonus after Krau and Practiced Spellcaster. Thematically, this could be played as an enchanter/illusionist if you don't take those as prohibited Wizard schools, but there's not really a benefit to going generalist, so maybe use Domain Wizard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) with that. Trade your familiar for a war-trained riding dog animal companion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) (i.e. guard dog) so you've got some tanky muscle.

[Kaleph]

The most powerful wizard "style" I've seen in real games under moderate, practical optimization rules is the shadowcraft mage, that has been already mentioned. Yes, it comes online at level 10 - save early entries, which I personally don't like - but before you're just a standard wizard, which until level 10 is simply a strong class (and basically no one is destroying planets at that stage).

I would recommend a specialist to begin with, since the shadow illusion will give you back all the flexibility you need. Focused specialist is probably an overkill, but theoretically still an option. I would combine it then with 4 levels of master specialist, and finish the build with a shadow adept dip, and then shadowcrafter for as long as the campaign goes.

You want to increase the available slots to cast shadow illusion, so don't forget to buy a custom runestaff with silent, minor and major image.

Ah, a side note. Since the adaptation section of the smakes very clear that the fluff requirements may be replaced with affiliation to an illusionist cabal, I'd consider playing a human or a halfling.

Regardless of my tips, the class has so many options, that you find online not one, but two handbooks on the subjects.

How the build will be powerful will be limited only by your good taste; if you're really into powergaming, make good use of an early entry, stack multiple instances of metamagic school focus on a single spell, take residual magic asap and add miracle to your spell list.

[Kelb_Panthera]

(Edit: Nija-ed) You could try being an Elven Generalist. You only get an extra spell per day for your highest level of spells, instead of for each level of spells. But you don't have to give up any schools. Also, you can double the bonus granted by your familiar. If your DM lets non-Conjurers take Hummingbird, that's +8 initiative. If not, there's still Rhamphorhynchus, which gets you to +6 initiative. ... Or go for one of the many +2 Fort save ones, and wind up with +4 Fort.

I just reread EG to be sure I have it right and it's actually way better than that. You get an extra slot added at every wizard level in addition to the floating extra slot at your highest level.

And the natural link feature gets wild if you go with my suggestion to pick it up as a changeling and grab the 5th level changeling sub level with morphic familiar.

[Ramza00]

Spell Mastery plus Uncanny Forethought.

That is all you need, anything extra is not more ice cream but adding cherries and whip cream to an already existing sundae that has 1 cherry and some whip cream.

[Maat Mons]

Are you refering to the line "At each new wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that she can cast?" Because I'm reading that as adding to your spellbook, not giving you more slots per day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you refering to the line "At each new wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that she can cast?" Because I'm reading that as adding to your spellbook, not giving you more slots per day.

Bah. My brain kept adding "slot" for all three times I looked at that before now. Why, brain? Why you do this thing to me?

You're right, it's extra spells known.

[Anthrowhale]

BFs build could be substantially strengthened if you add in the Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) feat with the Abyssal Specialist class option (DotU?) and the Aligned Spellcaster ACF from (Dragon #357) which Maat Mons points out. You lose your familiar, but virtually all spells become specialist spells which are cast at a substantially escalated caster level. Practiced Spellcaster, Theurgic Specialist, Able Learner and a Metamagic feat can all fit in 2 flaws and the level 1&3 feats.

[JeminiZero]

Take Spontaneous Diviner [CChamp] at L5 (does not require you to be a Divination specialist). The ability to pull divinations is a great complement to a party of Wizards. Collegiate Wizard [CArc] as your L1 feat, is also a solid choice.

Now for the high cheese: See if your GM will let you use Spontaneous Diviner to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster [ROD] as your L6 feat. This lets you burn 2 lower slots to cast any spell "you know" (not just Divinations) that is 1 slot higher.

For Familiars, see if your GM will let you double swap it for an Animal Companion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), and then for an Urban Companion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

It basically improves your familiar to 3/4 your HP and you DO NOT lose XP when it dies. But it will likely never improve and hence you lose the ability to deliver touch spells. Get a Raven for its ability to speak, and use it as a disposable scout. When the going gets rough, you can even polymorph it into a combat form. However, at starting L4, the only one I can think of is Lesser Spider Form [DoTU], but at least it only uses a Swift action.

[Max Caysey]

remember to call yourself a wizard you don't have to have actual wizard levels the same is true for most classes
I know... If were were going to class mates however, it probably cant be anything too exotic, like bard... which would defy our conceptual idea...


Most Powerful™ IMO would be Conjurer into Incantatrix 4+ into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. That's if you only want raw powah.
Yeah, don't want to be a conjurer, nor incantatrix.. Both of those are "taken" and I don't want to just copy of the others... I agree however that its super powerful, and cool!


Going for thematic builds, a (whisper) gnome Illusionist into Shadowcraft Mage is still extremely powerful if you have an encyclopedic knowledge of spells you can emulate with Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. There's a few handbooks for this, be sure to use Earth Spell.
Why tho... I'm not sure I understand why... I mean if creatures save, they still get affected? Up to 40%... that does not seem like something worth building for...


An Abjurer into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is also really good given the defensive capabilities, but I'm not a fan of specializing in Abjuration unless you can somehow use Prismatic Walls offensively.
I feel the same way. Its the coolest school. Magic that affects magic, but it just doen't function well for a specialist...


The most capable would be something like an Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Wizard-advancing PrCs 5, using flaws to get Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, and a metamagic feat before 6th level, as well as getting Versatile Spellcaster. UM advances the class with the lower caster level so thanks to Krau and Practiced Spellcaster, all ten UM levels can be applied to Wizard. With Able Learner you can keep up your ranks in all your favorite Beguiler skills (Illumians have the Human subtype), so this can even be the party's trapmonkey. You'll eventually get Beguiler 8 spellcasting, which gives you tons of tools for solving any problem the party runs into, and you can spend a 4th level Beguiler slot to Quicken a 5th level or lower Wizard spell thanks to UM. Be sure to apply the UM caster level bonus after Krau and Practiced Spellcaster. Thematically, this could be played as an enchanter/illusionist if you don't take those as prohibited Wizard schools, but there's not really a benefit to going generalist, so maybe use Domain Wizard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) with that. Trade your familiar for a war-trained riding dog animal companion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) (i.e. guard dog) so you've got some tanky muscle.
Why Illumian? Is it just the +1 caster level up to character level? Would beguiler and wizard not have two different spell pools and CL? Why would I want Able Learner?


The most powerful wizard "style" I've seen in real games under moderate, practical optimization rules is the shadowcraft mage, that has been already mentioned. Yes, it comes online at level 10 - save early entries, which I personally don't like - but before you're just a standard wizard, which until level 10 is simply a strong class (and basically no one is destroying planets at that stage).
Why? There's something about this build I don't understand... like something hidden between the lines... I would love an explanation.


I would recommend a specialist to begin with, since the shadow illusion will give you back all the flexibility you need. Focused specialist is probably an overkill, but theoretically still an optikn. I would combine it then with 4 levels of master specialist, and finish the build with a shadow adept dip, and then shadowcrafter for as long as the campaign goes.
Not going to be casting Shadow Weave magic with Mystra as patron... however powerful.



How the build will be powerful will be limited only by your good taste; if you're really into powergaming, make good use of an early entry, stack multiple instances of metamagic school focus on a single spell, take residual magic asap and add miracle to your spell list.
Which early entries might that be... And how do I, and why would I want to add Miracle?


BFs build could be substantially strengthened if you add in the Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) feat with the Abyssal Specialist class option (DotU?) and the Aligned Spellcaster ACF from (Dragon #357) which Maat Mons points out. You lose your familiar, but virtually all spells become specialist spells which are cast at a substantially escalated caster level. Practiced Spellcaster, Theurgic Specialist, Able Learner and a Metamagic feat can all fit in 2 flaws and the level 1&3 feats.
Which one of the 4 examples would be strengthened? And why would my spells be cast at a substantionally excalated CL. And what is escalated CL? Are we talking like +2 or +5 or +10


Sorry for all the stupid questions, but you guys touch upon some classes, feats and options I've never read before... so I need a little "Optimize your wizard for Dummies" here! Thanks again to all who are helping out! Its great! :)

Cheers!

[daremetoidareyo]

You have a rare opportunity to use cooperative spell to a big effect.

[el minster]

Remember you don't have to play a character with levels of wizard to call yourself a wizard

[Rebel7284]

Shadowcraft Mage is good because it can cast almost 2 schools of magic spontaneously. Highten Silent Image + Earth Spell = Highly boosted caster level Conjuration or Evocation spells on demand. Need a (standard action!) Phantom Steed? Fireball? Recast the dispelled Mage Armor (Greater)? Summon Monster 3? All of that is possible from the same level 3 slot depending on the situation! This is before abusing Residual Metamagic to highten your spells for free!

Now, Shadowcraft Mage needs some conversation with the DM to determine how exactly some of these spells work.

- Can a creature disbelieve your Mage Armor? What happens if they do?
- What does a 60% real contingency look like?
- If a flying creature somehow interacts with your Phantom Steed and then disbelieves it, do you fall from the sky?
- Do you automatically disbelieve your own illusions in general?
- What happens at high levels when you can get your spells to over 100% reality? If they disbelieve a 120% real fireball, do they take 120% damage?

Depending on the answers to these questions, Shadowcraft Mage can either just be a VERY versatile caster or just plain broken bypassing casting times and expensive material components while always having the perfect, 100%+ real, answer.

As far as what to play in this case, I strongly suggest playing an Archivist. You can call yourself a Wizard, you have a Spellbook (by a different name) and you seek out knowledge while being an Int based caster (mostly) but you have access to all divine spells. Paladin/Druid/Ranger/Divine Bard/Cleric/whichever spell list gives you Summon Giants way too early! There are a ton of different builds available from dipping Sacred Exorcist and doing the whole DMM:Persist schtick to summoning to also going Shadowcraft Mage if you are so inclined.

Also, if you are looking at spectacularly powerful caster options, consider Craft Contingent Spell. It comes a little later, but Contingency is amazing, casting a spell for you without needing any actions when you need it most. Craft Contingent Spell allows you to have one Contingency per caster level... it takes a touch of gold and XP, but it's totally worth it.

[Anthrowhale]

Which one of the 4 examples would be strengthened? And why would my spells be cast at a substantionally excalated CL. And what is escalated CL? Are we talking like +2 or +5 or +10

I meant the Ultimate Magus one.

For simplicity, consider an alternate build:

Sha'ir 1/Wizard[Abyssal Specialist, Aligned Spellcaster[Chaotic]] 3/Mystic Theurge 10
Level 1: Alternate Source Spell
Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster[Sha'ir]
Level 6: Theurgic Specialist
Level 9: ??
Level 12: ??
Level 15: ??


character level4567891011121314
Shai'ir caster level4567891011121314
Wizard caster level345678910111213
Specialist spells caster level45111315171921232527


Theurgic specialist means that you add together the caster level in each class for every class with the spell on list. Since every spell except for those with the [lawful] descriptor are specialist spells, that means virtually all wizard spells qualify.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shadowcraft Mage

Why tho... I'm not sure I understand why... I mean if creatures save, they still get affected? Up to 40%... that does not seem like something worth building for...

Why? There's something about this build I don't understand... like something hidden between the lines... I would love an explanation.
You can get it to 120% real and higher, so if they make the save, they're not just still affected, they take 20% more effect from it. Plus you can spontaneously cast a Heightened Silent Image in place of one of your prepared spells, and use that to emulate a Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation. You basically prepare utility and situational spells and offensive spells you can't use that to produce, and spontaneously convert those to offensive spells when needed.

Ultimate Magus

Why Illumian? Is it just the +1 caster level up to character level? Would beguiler and wizard not have two different spell pools and CL? Why would I want Able Learner?

Which one of the 4 examples would be strengthened? And why would my spells be cast at a substantionally excalated CL. And what is escalated CL? Are we talking like +2 or +5 or +10
Illumian is for the Krau sigil which catches your caster level up for both classes, otherwise your Wizard caster level is down by one and your Beguiler caster level is down by two. Without it the UM 7 spellcasting increase would need to go to Beguiler instead of Wizard, and your Wizard casting would be down by two levels instead of just one level from that point on.

Able Learner is because you get skills like Hide and Move Silently, and Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock, etc. from Beguiler, but when you put ranks in those skills with your Wizard or Ultimate Magus levels it costs two skill points for one rank. Able Learner removes that penalty and it's only one skill point per rank as if it's a class skill. Since your character has those as class skills from the Beguiler level, your max ranks is your character level plus three forever. The feat basically has the same effect as almost doubling your skill points per level for most of your career.

Let's look at what your caster levels will be at 9th and 15th level. At 9th level (UM 4) your spells/day and highest level spells are Beguiler 3 and Wizard 8. Krau makes your Wizard caster level 9 (your level), and Krau plus Practiced Spellcaster makes your Beguiler caster level 9 as well. UM's Arcane Spell Power class features increases both of those to 11, when you're 9th level. At 15th level (UM 10) your spells/day and highest level spells are Beguiler 8 and Wizard 14. Krau makes your Wizard caster level 15 (your level), and Krau plus Practiced Spellcaster makes your Beguiler caster level 14. UM's Arcane Spell Power class feature increases your Wizard caster level to 19, and Beguiler to 18.

Now let's look at the brilliant shenanigans Anthrowhale added. In the book Drow of the Underdark on pages 59-60 is an alternate class feature for Wizards called Abyssal Specialist, and while it's labeled "Drow Wizard" it doesn't have any race requirements. This replaces normal school specialization with a unique specialization in spells with one or more of the descriptors: chaotic, compulsion, darkness,
evil, and fear. "You gain all the standard benefits of specialization as applied to this group of spells, as though it were a school unto itself." You only need to pick one prohibited school, which is way easier than picking two. You can even go Focused Specialist in CM and get a second prohibited school for even more spells/day with those descriptors.

In Dragon issue 357 on page 88 is the Aligned Spellcaster alternate class feature, which replaces your familiar. Pick one of your alignment components that's not neutral (you need to pick Chaotic or Evil for this to work, it's best to be Chaotic aligned and pick that but if you want to be Evil and pick that one knock yourself out). Any spells you cast that don't have the opposite alignment descriptor already gain the one you chose. This means every spell you cast counts as one from your specialist 'school' for all game effects. You can prepare any spell you want in your specialist spell slots, and it's especially good with....

Theurgic Specialist is a feat in Dragon issue 325 on page 62, it requires specialist Wizard 3rd level and any other spellcasting class 1st level. Unless you can take flaws at 4th+ level (if you're starting that high level it should be fine, the rule is they must be gained when creating the character), you're waiting until 6th level to take this. With this feat, any time you cast a spell from your specialist school (which in this case is every spell you cast), regardless of what class you cast it from, your caster level for that spell is the combined caster levels of all your spellcasting classes. So at 9th level, both classes are at caster level 11, your caster level for all your spells is 22 when you're 9th level. At 15th level when your caster levels are 19 and 18, your cater level for all your spells is 37 when you're 15th level.

But wait, there's more! Change the build to Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM, and instead of Practiced Spellcaster take Master Spellthief, you don't even need Illumian but you still need to be human for Able Learner. Master Spellthief says you add your Spellthief level to your spellcaster level (what determines spells/day and highest level spells) in all your arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for each class, including Spellthief (even though you can't cast Spellthief spells yet). So at 9th level, you're at Beguiler 3 plus Wizard 7 plus Spellthief 1 for a caster level of 11 in all three, +2 for Arcane Spell Power for 13 in all three classes, so Theurgic Specialist makes that 39 for all your spells when you're 9th level. At 15th level you're at Beguiler 8 plus Wizard 13 plus Spellthief 1 for a caster level of 22 in all three, +4 for Arcane Spell Power for 26 in all three classes, and Theurgic Specialist makes that 78 for all your spells when you're 15th level.

Take the feat Reserves of Strength in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting page 86 allows you to increase your caster level by 1, 2, or 3 when casting a spell which also removes the level-based limits on the spell's effect. The cost for doing so is being stunned for the same number of rounds, or if you're immune to stunning you take that many d6 damage. So for 1d6 damage you can cast a 40d6 Fireball at 9th level, or a 40-shot Magic Missile at 15th level, etc.

This is on top of having all the skills of a Rogue, just with fewer skill points per level so fewer skills are max ranks.

[Asmotherion]

So guys... the druid I've been asking about is out. The concept went down the drain, so the new deal is a full wizard party. I'm not entirely sure what route to go, but we already have one who wants to play a conjurer (battlefield controller) following Treantmonk's guide... another is going enchanter/ diplomancer and the last is contemplating a transmuter incantatrix... So I'm fairly uncertain what I want to play but I think I lean more towards a generalist wizard.

Our backstory will be that we are class mates from the same wizarding school. Never heard of that before I know... groundbreaking stuff... Maybe someone should write 7 books about that!?:smallbiggrin:

Anywho, we still start at level 4, everything official (except eberron) is good. I really want to play a highly optimized wizard. Naturally being 4 of us, there are no mundanes to not over-shine. Obviously, I'm not interested in breaking the game, but I want to really push the power.

I expect the party to probably fizzle out at about level 15, so the build can't be something that comes online after that... There has to be some here and now benefits to it... fairly soon - preferably before level 10...

I have been looking at that Team Solar (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)) wizards, but I'm unsure if that build would bring anything to the plate before level 18 and even then, I'm unsure if its good without all the other party-members and their very specific setups...

So like, what is a super super strong wizard build, which is non of the above characters' specializations?


Cheers!

I'd say a Wizard with Incantatrix Levels and Persistant Spell and Probably Fell Drain Spell Metamagic with Spellcraft optimisation is the basic chassis, unless you're willing to go for more extream cheese levels like Metanode, Halruan Elder/Red Wizard of Thay or Sanctum Spell abuse. There's also the Reseves of strength feat, to uncap your Caster Level, and other Caster Level Optimisation Spells (you can Persist)/Feats/Items that stack.

From that point on, it's just a matter of choosing the right spells.

[Gusmo]

If you're new to wizard optimization, incantatrix might be a good idea. They're pretty straightforward to play, you just use lots and lots of metamagic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the note of ultimate magus; while something a bit more standard for it isn't the most powerful version of a wizard possible, it's a heck of a lot more fun than a more standard wizard.

Since the spontaneous side can cover your every day, always gonna need 'em spells and you can use the wizard side to do the more esoteric, only gonna need it a couple times in a campaign spells you don't have to be nearly as careful with your daily preparation or worry about getting caught with your pants down as much as a standard wizard.

You wouldn't believe how big a difference that makes.


Don't play a wizard do something similar but different like a bard or a wu jen or a beguler or something.


remember to call yourself a wizard you don't have to have actual wizard levels the same is true for most classes


Remember you don't have to play a character with levels of wizard to call yourself a wizard

That's easy enough to say, my dude, but the details that make somebody a wizard in this edition of the game are pretty specific. Only the wu-jen could really fake it.

Fluff is mutable but there's a limit after which it starts to get a little ridiculous. There's even a famous example lampshading the idea; Thog the "wizard" who is actually a barbarian. He wears robes, carries a "spellbook," and his favorite spell to cast on his enemies is "fist."

Just because you call yourself a wizard doesn't mean NPCs can't tell that's untrue, even if other arcane classes might confuse the matter for most. Given the OP's circumstance, I suspect most important NPCs will notice rather quickly.

[Asmotherion]

On the note of ultimate magus; while something a bit more standard for it isn't the most powerful version of a wizard possible, it's a heck of a lot more fun than a more standard wizard.

Since the spontaneous side can cover your every day, always gonna need 'em spells and you can use the wizard side to do the more esoteric, only gonna need it a couple times in a campaign spells you don't have to be nearly as careful with your daily preparation or worry about getting caught with your pants down as much as a standard wizard.

You wouldn't believe how big a difference that makes.







That's easy enough to say, my dude, but the details that make somebody a wizard in this edition of the game are pretty specific. Only the wu-jen could really fake it.

Fluff is mutable but there's a limit after which it starts to get a little ridiculous. There's even a famous example lampshading the idea; Thog the "wizard" who is actually a barbarian. He wears robes, carries a "spellbook," and his favorite spell to cast on his enemies is "fist."

Just because you call yourself a wizard doesn't mean NPCs can't tell that's untrue, even if other arcane classes might confuse the matter for most. Given the OP's circumstance, I suspect most important NPCs will notice rather quickly.

That's a bit setting specific.

To my experience, average NPCs in Greyhawk for example can't tell Wizard From Sorcerer and have trouble processing a non-good Cleric or Druid as "not a
Wizard", as the term Wizard would mean "Some guy who can do magic"; in this scenario Wizard and Sorcerer are interchangable terms.

In ebberon, most Npcs will be educated on the matter, and in Faerun you'd expect a city guard or distinguished citizen to at least know there is a difference between the two, but not necessarily know all the specifics.

In custom Settings I've played I'd say the average understanding of how this works leans towards the former.

[Max Caysey]

Ok... thank you for all your help so far...

I'm considering maybe trying a Shadowcraft Mage build... By no means have I desided, but I'm at least going to try and build one. So firstly it would look like I should be a specialist mage (illusion). So far so good, but what schools to prohibit? Im thinking necromacy as one of them, but since I hardly understand the damn build, I'm also unsure of what schools to get rid of. Or should I just choose conjuration and evovation since I can mimic those spells with shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, thus in fact not having any prodibited schools at all?

Secondly, what is the best subrace of Gnome... Is there any that gains a bonus to int, without being LA +1 or more?

Thirdly, It would seem that Gnome Illusionist substitution level at level 1 might be a thing, but I'm not excactly sure I see why... I dont really want to cast my spells at lover level do I? What am I not seeing here, whats the benefit of that?

Fourthly, I'm considering going focused specialist ACF... how many ACFs can I take? Like could I take Arcane Mastery from DR 357 also, by RAW?


I think thats it for now. Again many thanks for all the help!

Cheers!

[Zanos]

Just gonna throw my hat in the ring and agree that UM cheese is probably the most powerful wizard build. It gets new spell levels faster and spells are the preeminent source of busted mechanics. A slight tweak to the suggested build is to use the spontaneous divination ACF at CL 5 so your character is a pure wizard but qualifies as a spontaneous caster, and can therefore go Wizard 5/UM 10, allowing you to cast 9th level spells at character level 13(CL 21).

You can splash in some incantatrix to taste for metamagic cheese, but there are better options to cheese metamagic. Genesis and Metanode Spell w/Node Genesis are the two major ones. Genesis can be used to create a plane with enhanced magic traits, so you just add every metamagic feat you want on to every spell cast in the plane, and then buff in there. Both require 9ths so are usually late game cheese, but can be accessed early with the UM cheese. Both can be amplified with acorn of far travel as well.

[Kaleph]

Genesis and Metanode Spell w/Node Genesis are the two major ones. Genesis can be used to create a plane with enhanced magic traits, so you just add every metamagic feat you want on to every spell cast in the plane, and then buff in there. Both require 9ths so are usually late game cheese, but can be accessed early with the UM cheese. Both can be amplified with acorn of far travel as well.

That's not the optimization level I'm used to, but a shadowcraft mage (I'm clearly in the shadowcraft-team, I know and apologize) can cast genesis at level 13, without XP cost, as a standard action, and from a cantrip slot. And all this without cheese.

[el minster]

On the note of ultimate magus; while something a bit more standard for it isn't the most powerful version of a wizard possible, it's a heck of a lot more fun than a more standard wizard.

Since the spontaneous side can cover your every day, always gonna need 'em spells and you can use the wizard side to do the more esoteric, only gonna need it a couple times in a campaign spells you don't have to be nearly as careful with your daily preparation or worry about getting caught with your pants down as much as a standard wizard.

You wouldn't believe how big a difference that makes.







That's easy enough to say, my dude, but the details that make somebody a wizard in this edition of the game are pretty specific. Only the wu-jen could really fake it.

Fluff is mutable but there's a limit after which it starts to get a little ridiculous. There's even a famous example lampshading the idea; Thog the "wizard" who is actually a barbarian. He wears robes, carries a "spellbook," and his favorite spell to cast on his enemies is "fist."

Just because you call yourself a wizard doesn't mean NPCs can't tell that's untrue, even if other arcane classes might confuse the matter for most. Given the OP's circumstance, I suspect most important NPCs will notice rather quickly.

Like what was said before in the eyes of many a wizard is just somone whose main ability is magic.

[Zanos]

I will throw in an aside that I think being a specialist wizard is generally a bad choice from a powergaming perspective. A shadowcraft mage can comfortably ban evocation but pretty much every other school actually does contain unique effects. Even Enchantment has some very very good high level effects.


That's not the optimization level I'm used to, but a shadowcraft mage (I'm clearly in the shadowcraft-team, I know and apologize) can cast genesis at level 13, without XP cost, as a standard action, and from a cantrip slot. And all this without cheese.
I'm guessing this involves heighten+earth spell cheese but I'm not familiar with the exact trick, could you explain?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok... thank you for all your help so far...

I'm considering maybe trying a Shadowcraft Mage build... By no means have I desided, but I'm at least going to try and build one. So firstly it would look like I should be a specialist mage (illusion). So far so good, but what schools to prohibit? Im thinking necromacy as one of them, but since I hardly understand the damn build, I'm also unsure of what schools to get rid of. Or should I just choose conjuration and evovation since I can mimic those spells with shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, thus in fact not having any prodibited schools at all?

Secondly, what is the best subrace of Gnome... Is there any that gains a bonus to int, without being LA +1 or more?

Thirdly, It would seem that Gnome Illusionist substitution level at level 1 might be a thing, but I'm not excactly sure I see why... I dont really want to cast my spells at lover level do I? What am I not seeing here, whats the benefit of that?

Fourthly, I'm considering going focused specialist ACF... how many ACFs can I take? Like could I take Arcane Mastery from DR 357 also, by RAW?


I think thats it for now. Again many thanks for all the help!

Cheers!

Whisper Gnome in Races of Stone is generally regarded as the best one.

The Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level makes Silent Image a 0-level spell instead of a 1st level spell. That's the spell you'll be casting Heightened for shadow illusions via Shadowcraft Mage. With Earth Spell, the more you Heighten it, the bigger your caster level bonus is, so reducing its level allows you to Heighten it by an extra level and get an extra +1 caster level, every little bit helps. Don't bother with the Illusionist 5 substitution level, though.

The best prohibited schools to choose are typically Enchantment and Evocation. If you go focused specialist, Abjuration is actually worth losing if you have other spellcasters in the party, which you definitely will.

Trade your familiar for Chains of Disbelief (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) from UA.

Use flaws to get Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, and Spell Focus: Illusion all before 6th level. Learn Dead End or Net of Shadows or Dark Way or any other Illusion (Shadow) spell of 2nd level or lower, when you're 5th level you can Heighten that to a 3rd level spell and Earth Spell makes it count as a 4th level spell, so you can start taking Shadowcraft Mage at your 6th level. Wear sandals made from stone slabs so you're always standing on stone and can always use Earth Spell, even when flying.

It's good to include Master Specialist, the 3rd level gets Greater Spell Focus and the 4th level gives all your shadow illusions +2 DC for both the disbelief and whatever spell it's emulating. You'll generally want to finish the build with Shadowcrafter from the book Underdark, it makes your shadow evocations and shadow conjurations (and typically also your shadow illusions, but get it confirmed with your DM) 20% more powerful by the 7th level, and it's worth taking for nine levels. If early qualification tricks aren't allowed, you'll want to go Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 8. If you can do early qualification, Wizard 2/ Master Specialist 3/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Master Specialist 1/ Shadowcrafter 9 is ideal. For that to work you would have needed four feats by 2nd level, or to have taken Precocious Apprentice to qualify early for MS then retrained it into another feat at 3rd.

You'll also need Spell Mastery and pick Silent Image, and Signature Spell from PGtF for Silent Image, so you can spontaneously convert prepared spells into a Heightened Silent Image, which Earth Spell will boost your caster level by the level it's Heightened to and then Heighten it one more level yet. Also take Enhanced Shadow Reality from Dragon issue 325 page 77, which makes your shadow illusions 20% more real. So your shadow illusions are 10% real per level of the spell, which is one higher than the slot used to cast it, Shadowcraft Mage 5 makes them 20% more real, Enhanced Shadow Reality makes them 20% more real, and eventually Shadowcrafter makes them another 20% more real. Casting a Heightened Silent Image from a 3rd level spell slot makes it count as a 4th level spell, it can emulate any 3rd level or lower evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell, and it's still 100% real if they disbelieve. Even without Shadowcrafter, a shadow illusion from a 5th level slot is 100% real if they disbelieve, and anything higher is even stronger.

Edit: Also get Residual Magic in CM, so every other shadow illusion you cast is heightened for free and only costs you a cantrip slot.

[Kaleph]

I'm guessing this involves heighten+earth spell cheese but I'm not familiar with the exact trick, could you explain?

That's something that I've not invented personally, but it's exactly the example that you find here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16433.0) (see § "on breaking the game").

So, you start with the level-0 silent image, thanx to the gnome substitution level. Then you prepare it with heighten spell in a 6th level slot, but you add three time metamagic school focus, and combine it with earthen spell to reach the enviable heigth of a 10th level spell. I guess you could even do worse if you use sanctum spell, but anyhow. Under these premises, you can emulate 9th level conjuration (creation) spells, including genesis.

And you do it. But since it's shadow illusion you're casting, the casting time is one standard action, and there's no XP-component. Nice.

The next round, you cast silent image directly from the 0th level slot where it belongs, and combine it with the lingering metamagic option of your residual magic feat, with the consequence that this new casting of the spell has all the metamagic enhancer of its previous instance, only for free.

All you need is a 6th level slot, some feats, and 3 levels in the class. As I said before, it could potentially come online earlier if you take also sanctum spell, and/or if you use an early entry in the class.

[Kalkra]

Forest Gnome is probably better for an ScM than Whisper Gnome. See the handbook. Also is Dragon Mag allowed? If so, War Magic Study from Dragon #309 makes ScM about 25*CL times better than it already was. Also, if you want to get a little cheesy, you can take a level of the ghost savage progression (and ideally buy off the LA, if you can), which in addition to making you much less squishy, also gives you free taint, which can get you Eldritch Corruption, which a) lets you qualify for ScM earlier, and b) lets you do stuff before you have Residual Magic. Just be sure to get a wand of Lesser Vigor, or have a teammate who dipped Binder for Anima Mage. You can also do into Tainted Sorcerer/Scholar later, because why not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's a bit setting specific.

To my experience, average NPCs in Greyhawk for example can't tell Wizard From Sorcerer and have trouble processing a non-good Cleric or Druid as "not a
Wizard", as the term Wizard would mean "Some guy who can do magic"; in this scenario Wizard and Sorcerer are interchangable terms.

In ebberon, most Npcs will be educated on the matter, and in Faerun you'd expect a city guard or distinguished citizen to at least know there is a difference between the two, but not necessarily know all the specifics.

In custom Settings I've played I'd say the average understanding of how this works leans towards the former.


Like what was said before in the eyes of many a wizard is just somone whose main ability is magic.

In a lot of settings, sure. The OP's specific case is that he and his party are from a wizardry school. There are three examples of wizard in the party already. Given these, they're -much- more likely than the average party to interact with NPCs that know the difference. Joe Dirt-Farmer couldn't tell a wizard from a warlock still but the sages they consult with for anything they can't divine, the higher court functionaries whose business it is to be in the know, and the other wizards they'll be picking up spells from will all be able to tell.

Unless, of course, the GM decided to run this just like any other adventuring group. That would be... odd, IMO.

[el minster]

But what if in the OP's world there are difrent types of wizard relating to the different classes?

[Quertus]

The most powerful Wizard build? If Illithid Savant and Beholder Mage are disqualified… then Tainted Sorcerer, most likely. (EDIT: just a Generalist Wizard Tainted Sorcerer Mailman can be strong. Or…) see if you can squeeze a single level dip - and keep it to a single level - in any of those builds.

It lets you substitute HP damage for expensive components, con damage for metamagic levels, and gives you a potentially *massive* casting stat. With… some downsides.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But what if in the OP's world there are difrent types of wizard relating to the different classes?

It's not impossible but it would be pretty atypical. For most things people go with the default fluff unless they have a reason to change it.

[Rebel7284]

Notice the adaptation section of Shadowcraft Mage.
Adaptation
A cabal of nongnome illusionists could certainly use this prestige class; simply replace the racial requirement with a requirement that shadowcraft mages be members of the cabal.

Gnomes are a good race, but if you are looking at something spicier or just ran out of feats slots and need that human/strongheart halfling, this is an option.

[Kalkra]

Notice the adaptation section of Shadowcraft Mage.
Adaptation
A cabal of nongnome illusionists could certainly use this prestige class; simply replace the racial requirement with a requirement that shadowcraft mages be members of the cabal.

Gnomes are a good race, but if you are looking at something spicier or just ran out of feats slots and need that human/strongheart halfling, this is an option.

In fairness, Gnomish Illusionist getting Silent Image as a cantrip is pretty good, and probably worth a feat.

[el minster]

It's not impossible but it would be pretty atypical. For most things people go with the default fluff unless they have a reason to change it.

Why is it atypical for schools for arcanists in general to exist in a campaign setting? I'm saying that a school for wizards is actually for all arcane spellcasting casters even though they're all called wizards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why is it atypical for schools for arcanists in general to exist in a campaign setting?

They're not. In fact, they're a default assumption, given how wizardry works. What would be atypical is for not-wizards to join these schools when there's very little benefit to them in their arcane methodology and then be called wizards by those who can clearly and easily determine they're something else.

Bards have a reason more than other arcanist to join such a school but they have as much or more reason to found their own bardic schools. There's a pretty substantial difference between Harvard and Julliard.


I'm saying that a school for wizards is actually for all arcane spellcasting casters even though they're all called wizards.

Sorcerers intuit their magic, as do bards and dread necros. Warmages have their own military academies by default. Only wizards, wu-jen, and -maybe- beguilers need more formal training in the underlying magical principles to cast. You could put them all under one roof but none of them would think they're like the others to the degree that they'd all be called wizards when "arcanists" is a term that already covers them all.

[el minster]

But just because they have differences in spellcasting doesn't mean they would be in a separate school, they could just be in different classes for spellcasting but for other things they could be together. They would just be different types of wizards

[Kelb_Panthera]

But just because they have differences in spellcasting doesn't mean they would be in a separate school, they could just be in different classes for spellcasting but for other things they could be together. They would just be different types of wizards

You don't teach a bard or sorcerer to cast spells. You -may- teach them about magical theory or various tales and fables but neither needs that training. The canonical difference in methodology between wizards, wu-jen, and warmages pretty well demands different classes on how to cast spells to the same extent as mathematics, theology, and phys-ed require different classes even if everybody still has to take English too.

[el minster]

But people in real life with different abilities go to the same PE classes

[Max Caysey]

So, I've started building this thing. We can only take one flaw and it must be from the following list: - Frail, meager fortitude, pathetic, poor reflexes, unreactive or weak will. I'm thinking about going unreactive, I can basically wave the minus with Nerveskitter...

My classes at level 4 are:

Gnome Illusionist 1/ Focused Specialist 3. I was going to take go Focused specialist 3, Master specialist 4, but the other way gave me a bonus metamagic feat at level 5, opening op a free feat at level 1. What is the best option here??

Im going to be taking the gnome illusionist substitutional level at level 1, and the Focused Specialist ACF and the School Mastery ACF from DR#357.

I'm going to go Arcane Gnome from DR#291. It seems to fit the bill and I'm hoping my DM can see the justification. My stats are currently:

Str: 6
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 21
Wis: 14
Cha: 6

Please let me gnow, if my stats have been put in a way that negates the Shadowcraft Mage super gnome killer build!

Next stop feats: If I understand the build correctly, which I fear I dont, the following should be my 3 feats at level 4:

Level 1: Improved Initiative
Level 1: Spell Focus (Illusion)
Level 3: Earth Sense
Level 5 wizard bonus feat: I'm taking Heightened Spell
Level 6: Earth Spell

Please inform me if Improved Initiative is stupid... usually its a good feat for casters at low level, but unsure if there are dire imporant feats to take at this level instead!

I think that's it for now...

As always, thank you for all the help!

[Kelb_Panthera]

But people in real life with different abilities go to the same PE classes

In mandatory primary and secondary school, sure. Not in University and certainly not in the classical Academy that wizardry schools are based on.

If you're doing something Hogwarts-like, youngsters may be gathered and taught everything but they'll still branch off into preferred disciplines towards or just after graduation and I'm not sure there even is a sorcerer equivalent; someone who through sheer natural talent can reach the same arcane heights as Dumbledore himself with no formal training whatsoever.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Please inform me if Improved Initiative is stupid... usually its a good feat for casters at low level, but unsure if there are dire imporant feats to take at this level instead!

I think that's it for now...

As always, thank you for all the help!

Let Improved Initiative wait until 6th level. If you don't have Earth Spell before you hit 6th level, you can't start taking Shadowcraft Mage until after you've gained it, or until after you hit Wizard 7 spellcasting. You can't take Earth Spell at 6th level and also take Shadowcraft Mage at 6th level, you pick your class before your feat and you don't have the feat when you need it to pick that class.

[el minster]

Well the OP did mention Hogwarts in the first post.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well the OP did mention Hogwarts in the first post.

He alluded to it, as an aside about the originality of wizardry schools. The average human wizard is 22 at the start of his adventuring career while some are as old as 27. That's not a secondary school graduate. That's somebody fresh out of Uni or even with a post-grad. 17 at the low-end looks more like a drop-out; an unlicensed Mafia Doc or a bookie that didn't get his public accountant certification. Although the odd prodigy is also possible.

[el minster]

He alluded to it, as an aside about the originality of wizardry schools. The average human wizard is 22 at the start of his adventuring career while some are as old as 27. That's not a secondary school graduate. That's somebody fresh out of Uni or even with a post-grad. 17 at the low-end looks more like a drop-out; an unlicensed Mafia Doc or a bookie that didn't get his public accountant certification. Although the odd prodigy is also possible.

So wizards have to go to collage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So wizards have to go to collage.

And sorcerers don't and warmages have to go to military school while wu-jen go to seminary. That's what I'm trying to get across here. They are fundamentally not the same thing anymore than a physicist, a military NCO, and a vicar are the same thing just because they all have to get post-secondary education in their field.

[el minster]

So your saying that in the OP's world the party is a group of friends from a wizard collage and so he can't just play another arcanist?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So your saying that in the OP's world the party is a group of friends from a wizard collage and so he can't just play another arcanist?

Of course not. He can play whatever he wants. If it's not a wizard though, he shouldn't call it one and should probably come up with a reason he was at the school for wizards.

Maybe he plays a sorcerer and wanted to learn more about his heritage. Maybe he's a wu-jen and was specifically invited for a cultural exchange project. Maybe he's a bard that wanted access to the school's library and impressed an alumnus enough to get it. Or, per the titular request, he's just another wizard like the rest of the apprentices and fellows.

[Anthrowhale]

Flaw-wise, I'd suggest taking Weak Will. That's your good save, so you can afford to lose a bit. Also, initiative comes up in every combat, so it's good to have a nice initiative.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Always take two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats starting out.

[Yael]

You know that prestige class that shapes spells metaphysically?
Yeah, that's a 3-level PrC that's pretty strong. Shape Soulmed to get Strongheart Vest, and you're pretty much reducing metamagic to pretty much any amount you want without risking your stats too much. That's a first level ability you get at level 1st of a 3-level, full casting prestige class that you qualify for at level 6th. At 2nd level you get a free metamagic feat, and at third you get Easy Metamagic for the final slot modified by feats.
The thing is pretty much overpowered in my opinion as it fits in most builds that go heavy on metamagic, that are most wizard builds, combo'ing with Incantatrix even~

That's eeh, you know, from the Book of Erotic Fantasy, so third party advice. Wait was that supposed to go before? :smallconfused:

[Evoker]

Uh, I might be missing something, but isn't taking unreactive for a bonus feat you're spending on improved initiative... Really, really dumb? Unless you need imp init as a prerequisite for something.

[Maat Mons]

Maybe he meant to write Poor Reflexes?

[Evoker]

Maybe he meant to write Poor Reflexes?

He did specifically note that he could mostly negate the penalty with nerveskitter, so I think he wrote what he meant to write.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Uh, I might be missing something, but isn't taking unreactive for a bonus feat you're spending on improved initiative... Really, really dumb? Unless you need imp init as a prerequisite for something.

Seeing as that still nets you a -2, yeah it's a pretty poor choice. I don't think anything castery demands improved initiative either.

[Endarire]

What about a party buffer of Conjurer/Transmuter/Elf Generalist + Domain Wizard2 or 3/Master Specialist1 (if a specialist)/War Weaver5/Incantatrix3/Hathran5/Spellguard of Silverymoon4?

This is also a rare time when your party could go all Circle Magic classes and have it work thematically and mechanically. Perhaps you were all Hathrans or Red Wizards.

[el minster]

Of course not. He can play whatever he wants. If it's not a wizard though, he shouldn't call it one and should probably come up with a reason he was at the school for wizards.

Maybe he plays a sorcerer and wanted to learn more about his heritage. Maybe he's a wu-jen and was specifically invited for a cultural exchange project. Maybe he's a bard that wanted access to the school's library and impressed an alumnus enough to get it. Or, per the titular request, he's just another wizard like the rest of the apprentices and fellows.

Ah, but what if warmages, sorcerers, wu jen... were also called wizards i.e. what if in the campaign setting wizard means arcanist?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ah, but what if warmages, sorcerers, wu jen... were also called wizards i.e. what if in the campaign setting wizard means arcanist?

Why call them wizards when arcanist is already a term and wizard means something more specific? That is, why needlessly complicate terminology for no discernable benefit?

[Max Caysey]

Uh, I might be missing something, but isn't taking unreactive for a bonus feat you're spending on improved initiative... Really, really dumb? Unless you need imp init as a prerequisite for something.

Yes... you are absolutely correct. Had a brain fart there :smallredface: But as pointed out, by Biffoniacus_Furiou, not talking Improved Initiative, allows me to enter the Shadowcraft Mage one level earlier, so that's what I'm doing...

[Quertus]

But just because they have differences in spellcasting doesn't mean they would be in a separate school, they could just be in different classes for spellcasting but for other things they could be together. They would just be different types of wizards


But people in real life with different abilities go to the same PE classes


And sorcerers don't and warmages have to go to military school while wu-jen go to seminary. That's what I'm trying to get across here. They are fundamentally not the same thing anymore than a physicist, a military NCO, and a vicar are the same thing just because they all have to get post-secondary education in their field.

Good answer, @Kelb_Panthera. I was going to go with, "why not teach English, Spanish, Russian, Japanese, Druidic, and Klingon all in the same class - after all, they're all languages, let's just call them all 'French' or something".


Yes... you are absolutely correct. Had a brain fart there :smallredface: But as pointed out, by Biffoniacus_Furiou, not talking Improved Initiative, allows me to enter the Shadowcraft Mage one level earlier, so that's what I'm doing...

That makes sense. However,


We can only take one flaw and it must be from the following list: - Frail, meager fortitude, pathetic, poor reflexes, unreactive or weak will. I'm thinking about going unreactive, I can basically wave the minus with Nerveskitter...

You asked for the strongest Wizard build, then took Unreactive? In an edition known for rocket tag? :smallconfused:

[Max Caysey]

You asked for the strongest Wizard build, then took Unreactive? In an edition known for rocket tag? :smallconfused:

Ok, what do you suggest, with the known list of flaws and known stats? I'm all up for ideas :)


On a more general note, in the online guide/handbook to the Shadowcraft Mage, it is stated that because she takes Arcane Dicible at level 12, she can cast Miracle at that level. But, can you mimic a spell in a spell level yo don't have open/ access to yet?? I assume you can still only mimic spells at the level you have access to - ergo at level 12 you can mimmic up to level 6 spells?

How can you cast shadow mirracle at level 12?

[Kaleph]

Ok, what do you suggest, with the known list of flaws and known stats? I'm all up for ideas :)


On a more general note, in the online guide/handbook to the Shadowcraft Mage, it is stated that because she takes Arcane Dicible at level 12, she gains access to Miracle. But, can you mimic a spell in a spell slot she does not have open? I assume you can still only mimic spells at the level you have access to - ergo at level 12 you can mimmic up to level 6 spells?

So, first, my comment is: not everything that is suggested in an handbook works necessarily, as handbooks cover different levels of optimization/cheese.

I've seen three SCM played, and for each of them we elected a lot of limitations/prohibitions, like no residual magic, so worthless to say no one ever even tried to bring miracle in a serious discussion.

The good thing is, that SCM is ALWAYS powerful, regardless of the optimization level, provided heighten spell + earth spell are online.
Probably powerful doesn't really explain what we're talking about here. It's true, my group plays at loose optimization levels so it is maybe the wrong benchmark for a comparison, but still...the first time a SCM was used, it was with a DM who tought that wizards were lame and overrated. After the campaign, that same DM basically banned wizards because they're too strong.

Beside that, I believe that shadow illusion cannot replicate miracle, because it isn't a spell with the wizard/sorceror tag, regardless of the fact that you may add it to your personal spell list. So my recommendation is: forget it. If you don't want to forget it, then you have two ways to do it.
The first way is, take arcane disciple at 12 (or whenever you want), because you have a free feat slot, and start emulating the domain spells that are available, while waiting for miracle to come online at the appropriate level.
The second way is, pile 3 times metamagic school focus onto earth spell and sanctum spell (+ acorn of far travel), and cast miracle with a 5th level spell. Then the round after, use residual magic and cast miracle again, but this time with a 0th level spell.

[Max Caysey]

So, first, my comment is: not everything that is suggested in an handbook works necessarily, as handbooks cover different levels of optimization/cheese.

I've seen three SCM played, and for each of them we elected a lot of limitations/prohibitions, like no residual magic, so worthless to say no one ever even tried to bring miracle in a serious discussion.

The good thing is, that SCM is ALWAYS powerful, regardless of the optimization level, provided heighten spell + earth spell are online.
Probably powerful doesn't really explain what we're talking about here. It's true, my group plays at loose optimization levels so it is maybe the wrong benchmark for a comparison, but still...the first time a SCM was used, it was with a DM who tought that wizards were lame and overrated. After the campaign, that same DM basically banned wizards because they're too strong.

Beside that, I believe that shadow illusion cannot replicate miracle, because it isn't a spell with the wizard/sorceror tag, regardless of the fact that you may add it to your personal spell list. So my recommendation is: forget it. If you don't want to forget it, then you have two ways to do it.
The first way is, take arcane disciple at 12 (or whenever you want), because you have a free feat slot, and start emulating the domain spells that are available, while waiting for miracle to come online at the appropriate level.
The second way is, pile 3 times metamagic school focus onto earth spell and sanctum spell (+ acorn of far travel), and cast miracle with a 5th level spell. Then the round after, use residual magic and cast miracle again, but this time with a 0th level spell.

Right, I could see somthing like that working, but the specific build the handbook referenced had neither. It specifically had:
1 Gnome Illusionist 1 Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Initiative, [school mastery, focused specialist, Fighter bonus feats]
2 Illusionist 2
3 Illusionist 3 Earth Sense
4 Illusionist 4
5 Illusionist 5 Heighten Spell
6 Master Specialist 1 Earth Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 Shadowcraft Mage 1
8 Shadowcraft Mage 2
9 Shadowcraft Mage 3 Residual Magic
10 Shadowcraft Mage 4
11 Shadowcraft Mage 5
12 Master Specialist 2 Arcane Disciple (luck)
I fail to see how that build is able to cast level 9 spells. But I assume its the handbook auther thinking that you can heighten a spell higher than what you actually have slots in. Even though I might be willing to say that metamagic mitigaters open up for that, the build in question have none, whyfore I don't understand how its happening.

I have a few more questions about the build and some of the points made in the handbook:

1) If the point of departure is my wizard and we assume I'm level 6, and I heighten my level 0 Silent Image (i.e. effectively shadow evocation) to level 3, would I then be correct in saying that the percentage of realness would be 50%? (40% for spell level (using earth spell to have heighten spell be effectively one higher than actual slot used, +10 for School Focus ACF)? And the spell would be cast as if by a level 11 wizard? (CL 6 for base, +1 CL for Gnome, +1 CL for School Focus ACF, +3 for earth spell)?

2) Using the above trick, (including earth spell, heighten spell, and easy metamagic) would I be able to cast my level 0 silent image using level 2 slot (by using heithen spell), counting as a level 4 spell (by earth spell) and only needing a level 2 slot (by easy metamagic), thus mimicking a level 3 spell?

EDIT: The above two questions presume me to have the level 3 Shadowcraft Mage ability. Naturally I don't at this point, but the questions are a way for me to try and understand the mechanics correctly, even though strictly the ability is not online yet. Think of it as if it were!

3) In the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16433.0), under "On Mistaken Beliefs and Stealth Nerfs" it talks about how illusion spells only carry with them only a single save. Does this include spells mimicked by Shadow Conjuration/ Evocation? (Because it would seem shadow Conjuration/ evocation specifically calls out for a will save to disbelieve as well as the save the spell being mimicked normally allows (shadow fireball would thus allow first a will save to disbelieve and following that a reflex for half.. right?)... So which one is it?

Thank you all again for all the help!

Cheers!

[el minster]

Why call them wizards when arcanist is already a term and wizard means something more specific? That is, why needlessly complicate terminology for no discernable benefit?

Ah, but what if in the setting wizard replaces the term arcanist?

[Kalkra]

Right, I could see somthing like that working, but the specific build the handbook referenced had neither. It specifically had:
1 Gnome Illusionist 1 Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Initiative, [school mastery, focused specialist, Fighter bonus feats]
2 Illusionist 2
3 Illusionist 3 Earth Sense
4 Illusionist 4
5 Illusionist 5 Heighten Spell
6 Master Specialist 1 Earth Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 Shadowcraft Mage 1
8 Shadowcraft Mage 2
9 Shadowcraft Mage 3 Residual Magic
10 Shadowcraft Mage 4
11 Shadowcraft Mage 5
12 Master Specialist 2 Arcane Disciple (luck)
I fail to see how that build is able to cast level 9 spells. But I assume its the handbook auther thinking that you can heighten a spell higher than what you actually have slots in. Even though I might be willing to say that metamagic mitigaters open up for that, the build in question have none, whyfore I don't understand how its happening.

The idea is that Residual Magic lets you apply a metamagic feat for free, so if you Heightened a spell by +1, then you can apply Heighten Spell for free on your next spell, and nowhere does Residual Magic say it has to be by +1 again, so you can Heighten it all the way up to 9 (10 with Earth Spell) for free. Slightly sketchy.


I have a few more questions about the build and some of the points made in the handbook:

1) If the point of departure is my wizard and we assume I'm level 6, and I heighten my level 0 Silent Image (i.e. effectively shadow evocation) to level 3, would I then be correct in saying that the percentage of realness would be 50%? (40% for spell level (using earth spell to have heighten spell be effectively one higher than actual slot used, +10 for School Focus ACF)? And the spell would be cast as if by a level 11 wizard? (CL 6 for base, +1 CL for Gnome, +1 CL for School Focus ACF, +3 for earth spell)?

Sounds right.


2) Using the above trick, (including earth spell, heighten spell, and easy metamagic) would I be able to cast my level 0 silent image using level 2 slot (by using heithen spell), counting as a level 4 spell (by earth spell) and only needing a level 2 slot (by easy metamagic), thus mimicking a level 3 spell?

Sounds right. Or you could use a 3rd-level slot and Heighten it up to level 5 (with Earth Spell)


2) In the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16433.0), under "On Mistaken Beliefs and Stealth Nerfs" it talks about how illusion spells only carry with them only a single save. Does this include spells mimicked by Shadow Conjuration/ Evocation? (Because it would seem shadow Conjuration/ evocation specifically calls out for a will save to disbelieve as well as the save the spell being mimicked normally allows (shadow fireball would thus allow first a will save to disbelieve and following that a reflex for half.. right?)... So which one is it?

Pretty sure they also get the reflex save. Also, you used 2 twice.


I'll mention War Magic Study again. It's crazy good even if you can only mimic 2nd-level spells, and it doesn't require mimicking Miracle or anything. Sure, a 2nd-level spell mimicked would only have 40% reality on a successful will save, but when you have 200 Celestial Monkeys, who cares?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ah, but what if in the setting wizard replaces the term arcanist?

This is not different from your previous post.

It's a needless linguistic complication that adds nothing to the game and you -still- have a class that is drastically mechanically different from all but two classes (one of those not even arcane) and is utterly unique in its canon approach to magic that needs a name. A wizard is something with a unique flavor and mechanical expression.

Refluffing is fine but there's a point where you take it too far and start causing cognitive dissonance. This is one such point.

[Max Caysey]

The idea is that Residual Magic lets you apply a metamagic feat for free, so if you Heightened a spell by +1, then you can apply Heighten Spell for free on your next spell, and nowhere does Residual Magic say it has to be by +1 again, so you can Heighten it all the way up to 9 (10 with Earth Spell) for free. Slightly sketchy.



Sounds right.



Sounds right. Or you could use a 3rd-level slot and Heighten it up to level 5 (with Earth Spell)



Pretty sure they also get the reflex save. Also, you used 2 twice.


I'll mention War Magic Study again. It's crazy good even if you can only mimic 2nd-level spells, and it doesn't require mimicking Miracle or anything. Sure, a 2nd-level spell mimicked would only have 40% reality on a successful will save, but when you have 200 Celestial Monkeys, who cares?

Thanks...

So, we've apparently been raised to level 6, and I had made a mistake with me sequence of feat. Anyways, for my level 3 feat I'm considering either Metamagic School Focus, or Enhanced Shadow Reality Both seem really nice...

Which one would you guys recommend?

[el minster]

Refluffing is fine but there's a point where you take it too far and start causing cognitive dissonance. This is one such point.

That is an opinion not a fact!

[schreier]

I'm playing a level 5 wizard - giving up scribe scroll and familiar for eidetic spellcaster (no spellbook), take domain wizard (I took abjuration), at level I took spontaneous divination. Then 6-15 I am playing rainbow servant --- this is only good if your DM is a text over table type, meaning the rainbow servant is full progression (getting cleric spells at 15), then I am planning on 3 levels of archmage to get to 18. My last two levels are still up in the air, but considering 2 levels of divine oracle.

For feats - I definitely would go spell mastery / uncanny foresight.

I am playing an Irda from races of ansalon (3rd party dragonlance book) - so get +2 int and cha, lose -2 con, and gain the ability to change shape into any S-L a humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant. There is a follow-up feat, changer adept, that expands the permissible forms to include animal, magical beast, ooze, and plant which has a ton of utility and is just cool.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That is an opinion not a fact!

That that particular line should be drawn is, the fact that dissonance will occur if you don't draw it somewhere is not. Not drawing it there seems -really- problematic to me unless no one in the setting differentiates different kinds of arcanist at all, which is itself a problem for verisimilitude.

You don't think architectural engineers and mechanical engineers really see each other as the same thing, even if they're similar and related, do you? I think both would get mighty irritated if you insist that they're both architects.

[el minster]

Your proving my point they're all called "engineer"

[JNAProductions]

Your proving my point they're all called "engineer"

Just like a Wizard and a Beguiler are both Arcanists. Which is NOT what the OP asked for. They asked for Wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your proving my point they're all called "engineer"

Yes but only one of them is an architect. What you're saying in this analogy is "what if you just called all engineers (arcanists) architects (wizards)?" Not only are they not all architects (wizards), most of them aren't. They're all engineers (arcanists) and only a small subset are architectural engineers; architects (wizards).

I'm not gonna ask an architect to fix my car just because he's one type of engineer and I'm not gonna ask a wizard to talk to the spirits for me (wu-jen) just because he's an arcanist.



Disclaimer: I -may- be mistaken in that there's no difference between an architectural engineer and an architect but I suspect that's closer to the difference between an illusionist and a diviner than between a wizard and a sorcerer if there is a difference at all.

[Quertus]

Given that, if you have a choice, you have to be pretty much pants-on-head to target a Wizard with a Will save, I'm going with "Weak Willed" as both thematic (too much time blurring fantasy and reality to have firm beliefs) and tactically advantageous compared to the other options.

Granted, if your GM metagames, and likes to punish people's choices… it's still not a *horrible* save (unlike if you went Tainted Sorcerer). If, however, your GM just *loves* will saves to begin with (Charming and Dominating PCs, Illithids paralyzing you and eating your brains, etc), then it could be suboptimal.

[el minster]

Eh, your probably right I'm just too stuburn to admit it.

[Endarire]

No comments on making the group Circle Mages (Hathrans, Red Wizards, Halruaan Elders)?

[Max Caysey]

No comments on making the group Circle Mages (Hathrans, Red Wizards, Halruaan Elders)?

Well, the short answer is that the players in the group all wants to be different. Yes we all have wizard levels, but we have already talked about that diversifying is probably a good idea. Those classes mentioned are nice, but we are not all humans, were are all males, not all are the same alignment, not all have the same deity and not all likes the same things... However useful, we want too different things. So it just wouldn't fit. We are too different...

The do offer cool things, we just don't want to build towards the same prestige class, we want to opposite almost :smallsmile: