Paladin Multiclass / Tier question, and a request for feat advice

[deltamire]

First post in the roleplaying games section of the forum; I have a couple of questions that have been banging around my head for the last few months.

I’m currently playing a lvl 3 Oath of Treachery DEX-based Paladin in a quite casual, narrative-focused group. It’s been a fantastic experience, as everyone around the table is really interested in a collaborative, story-and-character-driven game, and our DM goes above and beyond to make it as enjoyable as possible.

I’ve never actually played a paladin before, and I'm really liking it. However, in my last long-term group was incredibly slow when it came to levelling up (we were at an average of a delightful 1.3 levels per year) and I just found a lot of the playstyle of a rogue just not worth grinding for and ended up multiclassing to artificer. I don’t expect this group to be quite so sluggish, but for anyone who knows the ropes of the paladin class - what’s it like playing a paladin at level 5 and upwards? I know I’m definitely going to be getting to lvl 5, for the extra attack and for Find Steed. The auras and treachery oath features available later look pretty kickin’, but are they worthwhile? I’ve been really enjoying the class, don’t get me wrong, but I just do not want to be in the same situation as before when I felt like I had wasted literal months of my life for underwhelming abilities.

Another question, regarding the same paladin - for my ASI / feat choice, what would you recommend? He’s a drow DEX paladin, 8 STR / 18 DEX / 14 CON / 15 CHA, with the usual rapier as my main weapon. I don’t particularly feel I need to boost any of my stats immediately, not even charisma. I’m not the primary spellcaster or the face of the party and I usually convert my slots to smites anyway. What feats would people recommend in this situation? I kind of fill in the gaps in the team when it comes to combat - our ranger is somehow managing to come in clutch every time, I don’t need to tank as much as a regular paladin because our barbarian is pretty much the kool-aid man, and our bard works mostly with utility. I’ve been enjoying the role of primary healer a lot more than the rogue.

In terms of feats, I’ve been considering the following for my 4th level feat:

- Dual weapon fighting, to beef up my weapon-based damage up to a STR paladin’s usual fare

- Magic Initiate, either Warlock (Eldritch Blast, Prestidigitation and maybe Hellish Rebuke?) or Bard (Vicious Mockery, Prestidigitation again, and Disguise Self, because currently looking like a drow has not been a boon to social situations when your ex-employer is kind of, uh, evil. I don't want to step on the bard’s toes, but mockery is a saving throw, so it wouldn’t be affected by sunlight sensitivity.)

- Mounted Combatant, because goddamn do I want that steed so bad and the idea of the steed getting hurt makes me sad :(

- Alert, to help me wrestle my way to the top of the initiative pile. Also, having 8 wisdom is very funny until you get jumped because your perception is so bad.

What are your opinions on these feats? Where would you recommend I continue from here? Thanks in advance, and apologies for such a large block of text. I only realised how much I’d written after I’d finished.

[Contrast]

- Dual weapon fighting, to beef up my weapon-based damage up to a STR paladin’s usual fare

So this gives you +1AC and +1 damage (over using shortswords)...which is the same as what you get for just boosting Dex to 20 except without the bonus to skills, initiative, saves and hit modifier.

Only worth it if you care about being able to draw two weapons in one turn - in my experience most DMs already handwave this but YMMV.


- Magic Initiate, either Warlock (Eldritch Blast, Prestidigitation and maybe Hellish Rebuke?) or Bard (Vicious Mockery, Prestidigitation again, and Disguise Self, because currently looking like a drow has not been a boon to social situations when your ex-employer is kind of, uh, evil. I don't want to step on the bard’s toes, but mockery is a saving throw, so it wouldn’t be affected by sunlight sensitivity.)

I wouldn't say a terribly powerful option but it sounds like you aren't necessarily trying to optimise for power. Only you can judge how useful this will be at your table.


- Mounted Combatant, because goddamn do I want that steed so bad and the idea of the steed getting hurt makes me sad :(

I would think back - how many of your combats take place outside and in a place where you would have been able to take a horse around with you? Find Steed makes it much more viable but in my experience the 'have to be riding a large sized creature around' restriction is much more relevant than people initially think.


- Alert, to help me wrestle my way to the top of the initiative pile. Also, having 8 wisdom is very funny until you get jumped because your perception is so bad.

Eh. Its fine but I wouldnt say its helping you achieve something you want your character to do.


If you're enjoying being a healer, have you considered Healer or Inspiring Leader?

Re multiclassing - I'd stay paladin until at least 6 and see how you feel from there.

[DevilMcam]

The higher level you get, the better paladin is.
Until very high up there isn't a level where you don't want to take another level of Paladin.

4 is ASI,
5 is extra attack and level 2 spells
6 is aura of protection, one of the best features ever
7 is your oath aura
8 is aother ASI
9 is level 3 paladin spell (aura of vitality and haste for you are super awesome)
10 is aura of courage
11 is improved divine smite
12 is another ASI ...

As a dex paladin there isn't a lot of support for feats unfortunately. Dual wielder is kind of a trap option two weapon fighting isn't great and is not even supported by the paladin class.

Mounted combatant is fine but you may not always be able to bring your horse with you.

I'd avoid magic initiate as there is no synergy with your paladin features, beeing bad at something you were awfull doesn't makes you good at anything.

stats increase are always great (especially because aura of protection is a thing and such a strong one).

[Arkhios]

Well, first of all, since you are a Str 8, Dex 18 Paladin (and I assume, hand-waving for certain requirements is not guaranteed), you should keep focused on being a paladin and what it brings with it (RAW, you are unable to multiclass from Paladin to anything else, because you don't meet the prerequisite minimum of Str 13).

That out of the way, I feel that in a narrative-and-collaborative game as you described, you should actually consider not expending your precious few spell slots on smites. Only use it that way when it really matters! (such as in a life-or-death situation). Instead, consider using spells that have a long duration (most of which, as a paladin, do unfortunately require Concentration).

I really can't say anything about the Oath of Treachery, because I haven't played one myself. That said, I'd recommend weighing the value of those features with the same perspective as with spells, as I mentioned above: Think about how meaningful their effects are in the long term. Not just over the course of the campaign, but over the course of every single session. Narrative and collaborative games tend to have sessions that last for a long time. Potentially much longer than games that focus more on combat and quick tactical decisions. Or at least that's how I've experienced them before.

Regarding feats, I'd say take Mounted Combatant, since you apparently do want the mount, a lot. It's a very useful trick to have and doesn't have any resources you need to keep track of, and can carry you and your steed a long way without having to worry that much whether it's easy to kill your mount.

You said you've enjoyed the role of a primary healer in your group. In that case, I would recommend thinking again improving your Charisma soon-ish. Actor could be pretty great as a feat for that purpose. Not only does it increase your charisma by 1, it also makes you great at disguising yourself. All without resorting to magic, and thus without the need to keep track of resources that much. Even though increasing your charisma score helps only marginally with Cure Wounds, at 6th level, the bigger bonus you can get to your Aura of Protection, the less you may have to heal your companions, because saving against damaging area of effect abilities could be seen as pre-emptive healing.

In any case, I have a 5th level Oath of the Ancients Paladin with the feats: Resilient (Constitution) and Dual Wielder, because our games tend to have combats quite often, and I like to shine in them. Even so, in general I tend to use Divine Smites only when I score a critical hit. Instead, my go-to spell is Divine Favor, which applies to all of my attacks with just one casting, including the off-hand/bonus action attack I have with Two-Weapon Fighting. Plus, having Proficiency in Constitution saving throws doesn't hurt, since Divine Favor requires Concentration. However, my point is that Divine Favor pumps up my damage quite a bit (as it applies to all attacks I make with weapons, not just one weapon or the like), and mitigates the lack of Two-Weapon Fighting Style quite well.
I do have a mount, but I mostly use it to carry my excess gear, and mostly out of combat, if I need to travel fast (although sometimes in combat as well, if I need to move fast! :smalltongue:)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

If you get a good amount of advantage from your party maybe Elven Accuracy.
You can use it to bring your Cha to 16, that is a +1 to saves to all your allies in a 10 ft radius at level 6.

[deltamire]

Thank you all for your advice. Some things I had forgotten / wasn't thinking of have been brought up, so I'll just compile them here:


If you're enjoying being a healer, have you considered Healer or Inspiring Leader?

Re multiclassing - I'd stay paladin until at least 6 and see how you feel from there.
I had completely forgotten about Inspiring Leader until this! It seems like a good feat for roleplaying purposes, and while Healer definitely sounds good as we move into more dangerous territory, I'm not sure it would come up as much, as our team, while not exactly the most skilful, are proving incredibly hard to kill / knock down to 0 HP. I'll keep those both in mind.


As a dex paladin there isn't a lot of support for feats unfortunately. Dual wielder is kind of a trap option two weapon fighting isn't great and is not even supported by the paladin class.
That's on me; I found two weapon fighting one of the few enjoyable aspects of my rogue, and didn't know it can't sync up so well with a paladin. I suppose that's what you get when you play a class designed for STR as a DEX build. I'll steer clear of it, so.


That out of the way, I feel that in a narrative-and-collaborative game as you described, you should actually consider not expending your precious few spell slots on smites. Only use it that way when it really matters! (such as in a life-or-death situation). Instead, consider using spells that have a long duration (most of which, as a paladin, do unfortunately require Concentration).
I've been burning a few of them on shield of faith, divine favour and whatnot, but I'm aiming to branch out into the more social aspects of the spell list as we come back together after the lockdown. Concentration has really been the bane of my existence with the class.

Regarding Mounted Combatant, which has been brought up twice, generally speaking, our fights have been pretty spread out. We do a lot of marine/boat-based fights, which might be a complication, but we've managed to (so far) avoid the bottleneck dungeon problem.


If you get a good amount of advantage from your party maybe Elven Accuracy.
You can use it to bring your Cha to 16, that is a +1 to saves to all your allies in a 10 ft radius at level 6.
Again, I muffed it and completely forgot to look at the race-based feats at all. This looks pretty good: however, with the way our party works, I'm usually one of two or the only frontliner near an enemy, as so much of our combat is spread out over a large area. However, I think I've been convinced that bumping my CHA up to 16 seems a good way to go about things.

People seem pretty enthusiastic about the upper levels of paladin, and I'm beginning to see why. I was kind of worried there's be a dropoff point, but it all seems very bulked up so there's always a sense of progression. Actor as a feat choice has definitely caught my eye; thank you for recommending it.

[DevilMcam]

That's on me; I found two weapon fighting one of the few enjoyable aspects of my rogue, and didn't know it can't sync up so well with a paladin. I suppose that's what you get when you play a class designed for STR as a DEX build. I'll steer clear of it, so.


I've been burning a few of them on shield of faith, divine favour and whatnot, but I'm aiming to branch out into the more social aspects of the spell list as we come back together after the lockdown. Concentration has really been the bane of my existence with the class.


Two weapon fighting works well on rogue Because it gives you extra chance to get that sneak attack.
A simple d6 or d8 with no modifier isn't really worth your hand and a bonus action as paladin . DEX paladin actually works very well and is a popular choice. Although a more defence oriented on.

As far a concentration goes, paladin has acces to some of the best spells available, and the insane aura of protection to keep concentration even under Heavy fire.
Bless is one of the strongest damaging spells of the game (Yes, it can compete with fireball if your team can make good use of it) , wrathfull smite is a terrifying (good one) Control spell,...

[CTurbo]

Paladins are great!

As mentioned above, you need at least a 13 Str to be able to multiclass which is fine because you're better off straying full class anyway.

There is nothing wrong with Dex Paladins. I've played a couple and they're great. Get your hands on a Scimitar of Speed and you're good to go.

I highly recommend Elven Accuracy at level 8 to bump up Cha because you're going to have advantage on a lot of your attacks because of your 7th level aura.

I would probably even bump Cha again at level 12. Maxing Dex wouldn't be a bad choice either though.

Magic Initiate *IS* is a good feat for Paladins but not as the expense of your attack stat and Cha.

[Corran]

TWF will slow down a little when you get extra attack, but it will enjoy a nice boost again once/if you get up to paladin 11, thanks to the improved divine smite ability. Usually people prefer playing a str paladin and investing on the PAM feat, but TWF is a good way to increase your dpr without committing any feats for it. Great choice for a dex based (stealthy!) paladin (cause dpr aside, it also means you can change to using a bow faster, than you would if for example you were using a shield with your off hand, which takes up an action to drop).

I like your idea about magic initiate, for the disguise self spell and for a ranged cantrip that is not using an attack roll (for when you'll have disadvantage). Notice that you could do that both with magic initiate: bard and with magic initiate: sorcerer, which opens up a few more choices for your cantrips. For example, instead of vicious mockery, you could pick one of acid splash, frostbite and poison spray. Since you can already use a bow for great distances, so that you will end up relying on your cantrip far more situationally (ie when sunlight sensitivity kicks in), I would consider taking poison spray, despite its small range and its highly resisted damage type. Though acid splash is the safest choice I think. I'd probably pick one of those two instead of vicious mockery (or frostbite), as the rider of those two does not scale well with levels, and moreover, you would normally want to use such cantrips against enemies that you would typically prefer to attack and smite. I'd totally go with actor as my feat at level 8, if I was to pick magic initiate (disguise self) at level 4. This is what I'd do, but that's not to say that these are your strongest choices necessarily. Just the ones I would enjoy the most.

Another feat I would consider (maybe later on), would be observant. Will help with your low (passive) perception, but I would mostly look at it for getting the ability to read lips. Nothing too powerful (at the cost of a feat), but throwing it as an idea.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

If you get a good amount of advantage from your party maybe Elven Accuracy.
You can use it to bring your Cha to 16, that is a +1 to saves to all your allies in a 10 ft radius at level 6.

I'd basically be seconding this thought or another +1 Cha Feat depending what your campaign allows.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I'll second Actor as a fun pick, and I imagine it goes doubly so for an Oath of Treachery Paladin. If you later decide you also want a few more magical tricks, I'd consider picking Drow High Magic rather than MI: Warlock/Bard. Levitate and Dispel Magic are both really useful things to have, as is Detect Magic if the Bard doesn't already have it known for some reason. As for two weapon fighting, even without a feat it works okay on a Paladin for levels 1-4 (extra die of damage, extra chance to crit and then smite), and levels 11+ due to Improved Divine Smite. Levels 5-10 it might feel a little more lackluster compared to the AC you're losing by not using a shield.

[MrStabby]

For a dex paladin the two obvious feats are elvish accuracy and mobility.

Elvish accuarcy is just great even if you don't build round it - if you can get some support for advantage then it is even more awesome. If you do that on a paladin it is... excessive.

Mobility is great if you are playing a more dex focussed skirmisher. You can close thse distances to avaid wasted turns being a waste of space at range. You can get through to the back lines of enemies to take out their spellcasters just a little bit more easily. You can do a fighting retreat a lot more effectively if you need to.

[Specter]

Also Defensive Duelist is an underestimated option. Paladin doesn't get many reactions, and being able to deflect an attack at will will help you a lot along the way.

[Fryy]

Paladins are great!

I highly recommend Elven Accuracy at level 8 to bump up Cha because you're going to have advantage on a lot of your attacks because of your 7th level aura.



Elven Accuracy also pairs well with Mounted Combatant. Your mount (Steed) is Large you will have advantage on Medium or smaller creatures.

Mobility, however, does not pair especially well with Mounted Combatant. Mobility applies to you but not to your mount.