People have problems with sorcerers, can they be fixed by just adding some cantrips?

[Rfkannen]

I have never played a sorcerer, but I have played WITH a couple, and the problem the class always seems to have is that they have a lot of ways to make what they do more powerful, but they don't have much to do in the first place. This is why sorcerer's do so well with warlock and paladin multiclasses, both of them give the sorcerer an at will ability that they can empower. (quicken becomes so much cooler when you have a cantrip that is worth the action you saved, twin becomes a lot cooler when your booming blade is worth twinning).

So if part of what makes those multiclasses fun is having some cool at will abilities that synergize well with the sorcerer's kit could we just... add them to the sorcerer?

Like maybe some cantrips that have something like "when you cast the cantrip you can spend x sorcery points to do y" or just a cantrip that acts like green flame blade but doesn't require martial weapons to be used effectively, or like a second level spell that adds some at will attack.

I don't know if there actually is a problem with sorcerers, both of the ones I have played with seemed like very effective characters, but there seems to be a problem of perception, where people feel like there sorcerer needs more cool things to do. Could we solve this by just adding more cool things to do? Or would that be unbalanced? Is there a different solution?

What do you think?

[Anymage]

Some cool things to do are very broad, like the ability to shoot fireballs or fly around. Some other cool things are more limited in scope, like the ability to avoid attacks in combat by blinking into and out of the ethereal plane.

Sorcerers are pretty good for cantrips, although of course they'd like Eldritch Blast with invocation support. Their real problem is that, with their small number of spells known, they're punished hard for taking a more limited or niche spell pick.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I have never played a sorcerer, but I have played WITH a couple, and the problem the class always seems to have is that they have a lot of ways to make what they do more powerful, but they don't have much to do in the first place. This is why sorcerer's do so well with warlock and paladin multiclasses, both of them give the sorcerer an at will ability that they can empower. (quicken becomes so much cooler when you have a cantrip that is worth the action you saved, twin becomes a lot cooler when your booming blade is worth twinning).

So if part of what makes those multiclasses fun is having some cool at will abilities that synergize well with the sorcerer's kit could we just... add them to the sorcerer?

Like maybe some cantrips that have something like "when you cast the cantrip you can spend x sorcery points to do y" or just a cantrip that acts like green flame blade but doesn't require martial weapons to be used effectively, or like a second level spell that adds some at will attack.

I don't know if there actually is a problem with sorcerers, both of the ones I have played with seemed like very effective characters, but there seems to be a problem of perception, where people feel like there sorcerer needs more cool things to do. Could we solve this by just adding more cool things to do? Or would that be unbalanced? Is there a different solution?

What do you think?

I actually really like Sorcerers, and feel like considering Metamagic, being on CHA instead of INT, and the fact that most casters wind up using the same dozen spells anyway, there feels like there's not a whole lot of reason to play Wizard. I just wish that they shared the Wizard spell list like in previous editions, because it feels weird for them not to and some of the spells they're missing also feels weird.

My general issue with sorcerers is the same one I have with wizards. There aren't enough spell slots. When effect scales with spell slot level instead of caster level and the number of your current-highest-few-level spell slots of each level goes down, your daily performance is really crap and generally unsatisfying. You spend most of your time plinking uselessly or concentrating on a buff for the Fighter and trying not to be shot, and then completely derail the plot with the one spell that's the actual reason there's only one 8th or 9th level spell slot, and then go back to plinking or being the party taxi service.

Don't get be wrong, I do like playing my sorcerers much more than I like playing hit-with-stick guy, but I feel like my contribution ranges from "I solved the adventure" to "I hid in a corner all session and all of last session and all of the session before while watching my friends die" with nothing in between. And my friend has observed the same thing, even when I'm doing something that does have impact like cloaking the Rogue or teleporting other party members, it never feels like I'm contributing as much as everybody else is since I'm either aggressively hiding to preserve my concentration or plinking for like a 6th the damage that everybody else is.

If I were to change the class [and wizard], I would erase the game-destroying spells like Simulacrum, Wish, and Clone, tone down a few like Dominate; and then either increase the total availability of spell slots drastically and/or change effect scaling by spell level into scaling by caster level. The low number of spell slots also disincentives debuff effects, so either increasing spell slot count or increasing DC so they actually have an effect would be something I'd look into. And possibly alter some specific buff spells so that the retain their relative power better [IE: Haste permitting the buffed creature it's full complement of attacks].

[Man_Over_Game]

I have never played a sorcerer, but I have played WITH a couple, and the problem the class always seems to have is that they have a lot of ways to make what they do more powerful, but they don't have much to do in the first place. This is why sorcerer's do so well with warlock and paladin multiclasses, both of them give the sorcerer an at will ability that they can empower. (quicken becomes so much cooler when you have a cantrip that is worth the action you saved, twin becomes a lot cooler when your booming blade is worth twinning).

So if part of what makes those multiclasses fun is having some cool at will abilities that synergize well with the sorcerer's kit could we just... add them to the sorcerer?

Like maybe some cantrips that have something like "when you cast the cantrip you can spend x sorcery points to do y" or just a cantrip that acts like green flame blade but doesn't require martial weapons to be used effectively, or like a second level spell that adds some at will attack.

I don't know if there actually is a problem with sorcerers, both of the ones I have played with seemed like very effective characters, but there seems to be a problem of perception, where people feel like there sorcerer needs more cool things to do. Could we solve this by just adding more cool things to do? Or would that be unbalanced? Is there a different solution?

What do you think?

You could just add a flat bonus to your sorcerer cantrips. Like bonus damage equal to 1/2 your Sorcerer level.

I'm 50/50 on it.

My biggest concerns is that you have to be very cautious about what spells you pick. It's easy for a decent player to do that, e.g. Catapult instead of Chromatic Orb, but there are a lot of bad options to take for a class that doesn't really have much wiggle room for mistakes.
And that also leaves very little room for thematic spells. For example, a Red Dragon Sorcerer can't really afford to take Burning Hands, Scorching Rays and Fireball, because he's a Sorcerer. Or maybe he can, but he won't do nearly as much as most other casters, and won't output that much more damage in return. The specialization isn't rewarding for how much you lose,

But if those are not a problem, then the Sorcerer isn't a problem. But those can be very big problems, usually made by players who don't know better.

Players should be allowed to make poor, but educated, choices in character building. They should NOT be allowed to make mistakes, especially if the game encourages it.

[MoiMagnus]

Playing a sorcerer mean playing a Cha-based spellcasters. This makes very tempting (at least to me) to take utility spells more geared toward social encounters. While subtle spell-casting is a major feature (though some DMs allow to cast spells discretely with just a stealth check), in a lot of situation you feel like a worse Bard because of how few spell you know.
[Except for cantrips. You have two additional cantrip compared to the Bard, and one more than the Wizard. Cantrip are not the problem].

My fix would just be to give spell known from the origin, similarly to how cleric/warlocks/... get spells from their deity/patron/... at level 1/3/5/7/9. As a sorcerer, a lot of your powers are innate. Innate like "not chosen by you, just revealed to you with enough training". This would give you all the thematic spells you need as a base, including the bad ones you usually can't afford to take.

(The fact that there is only two subclasses in the PHB does not help either.)

[Monster Manuel]

My fix would just be to give spell known from the origin, similarly to how cleric/warlocks/... get spells from their deity/patron/... at level 1/3/5/7/9. As a sorcerer, a lot of your powers are innate. Innate like "not chosen by you, just revealed to you with enough training". This would give you all the thematic spells you need as a base, including the bad ones you usually can't afford to take.


Agree. I think it's pretty widely accepted among everyone I've talked to that adding thematic bonus spells to the Sorcerer would be a huge improvement. I don't understand why they didn't do this from the start, but that's the problem...the existing subclasses would have to be errata'ed to include bonus spells, and they won't want to do that. And the more subclasses we get, the harder that is to implement.

To the OP's point, I would like to see sorcerer-specific spells added to the game, cantrips included, that have interesting interactions with the SP system. A cantrip is, basically, an at-will class ability, and new spells are easy to add to the game, whereas new class features (like bonus spells) are hard.

Any thoughts about what kinds of cantrips you might have in mind? A unique Cantrip for each sorcerer subclass, which scales at levels 1/3/5/7/9 with an additional and increasingly meaningful thematic effect, but only if you have SP available? Like "Storm Bolt", which works like a 1d8 lightning-based fire bolt at lvl 1, increases to 2d8 and spend 1 SP for a 1rnd disad to dex rolls at lvl3, 3d8 and 1SP for a line like lightning bolt at 5, 4d8 and 1SP to cut through resistance at lvl7, 5d8 and 1SP to jump to another target at lvl9? These are all completely off-the-cuff thoughts, haven't really sussed out how they would really work (like, how does this interact with Twin), but just a suggestion around a proof-of-concept idea.

So, you get a handful of weaker-but-at-will versions of thematically relevant spells for a storm sorcerer, or a blue dragon sorcerer. It's empirically better than a regular firebolt, which only gets the damage boosts rather than the additional riders proposed here, but does the requirement to have a SP pool, with SP remaining in it, mitigate this imbalance? Requiring the SP pool means that it's not an auto-pick for a lore bard or someone with Magic Initiate?

[Dork_Forge]

I don't think giving them more cantrips would really fix anything, they already get more cantrips than other full casters and invocations are the purview of the Warlocks.

My personal approach for fixing the Sorcerer goes like this:

-You gain an additional spell known at 1st and 5th level

-You can trade one metamagic at level up like you can a spell

-Sorcerous recovery: Once per day when you finish a short rest you can recover a number of Sorcery points equal to half your Sorcerer level rounded up

It gives the player some breathing room with regard to spells (you now don't have to pick between Mage Armor, Shield and an offensive spell, you can have all three at first level) whilst still having them be the restricted class and allows them to do their Sorcerer thing more, be that scrounge more slots or use more metamagic without having to dip Warlock.

I've also considered making them a d8 class, there's no fluff reason why their hit die should be the lowest in the game and they hardly need it as a balancing factor in comparison to Clerics and Druids.

[Fryy]

To the OP's question... Not more cantrips known... just more spells known. Compare the # of spells known (or able to be cast in a given day) to any other full caster class. Count the # learned from levels 11 to 20

[Monster Manuel]

I don't think giving them more cantrips would really fix anything, they already get more cantrips than other full casters and invocations are the purview of the Warlocks.

I may have mis-read the original intent, but I don't think the proposal was adding more cantrips to the total known, but, rather, adding new cantrips to the Sorcerer spell list that do something novel, specifically tailored for the Sorcerer. I think that could give some benefit, and there's literally no reason why not to...as long as you can account for multi-class or feat-based shenanigans.

Otherwise, I agree, adding a 5th cantrip to the ones known by the sorcerer at lvl 1 would do nothing for the class. I think the follow-on discussion of bonus spells (specifically leveled 1-9 spells) is a separate discussion, which may have confused the issue.

[DigoDragon]

If added spell slots would help, the GM in my local group allowed the extra spell slots rule from 3.5 for casters with a high casting stat. It has given the sorc and bard in our group a little extra staying power without breaking our game.

[Dork_Forge]

I may have mis-read the original intent, but I don't think the proposal was adding more cantrips to the total known, but, rather, adding new cantrips to the Sorcerer spell list that do something novel, specifically tailored for the Sorcerer. I think that could give some benefit, and there's literally no reason why not to...as long as you can account for multi-class or feat-based shenanigans.

Otherwise, I agree, adding a 5th cantrip to the ones known by the sorcerer at lvl 1 would do nothing for the class. I think the follow-on discussion of bonus spells (specifically leveled 1-9 spells) is a separate discussion, which may have confused the issue.

Yeah you're right my reply was coloured largely by the title of the thread, though if they gain an at will ability that can be empowered with SP then they will definitely need more SP.

[Garfunion]

Adding my two cents
I would give the sorcerers the ability to use their metamagic for free (or reduced cost) on Sorcerer cantrips. Probably give this feature to them at level five.

[Hael]

Having played a ds sorlock to lvl 13 and a regular draconic sorceror to lvl9, I can safely say that the former plays exactly like how you would expect a sorcerer to play, and the latter is disappointing across the board.

I feel like they have a lot of very bad lvls where they feel particularly weak. Tier one play is awful for instance.

Their subclass bloodline feature list tends to have very underwhelming abilities as well.

End of the day, you’re sorta encouraged to multi class with this chassis. It makes for a decent endgame dip for a wizard at lvl 17 or alternatively you take a few lock or paladin lvls to improve the horrible defense.

[Rfkannen]

Having played a ds sorlock to lvl 13 and a regular draconic sorceror to lvl9, I can safely say that the former plays exactly like how you would expect a sorcerer to play, and the latter is disappointing across the board.

I feel like they have a lot of very bad lvls where they feel particularly weak. Tier one play is awful for instance.

Their subclass bloodline feature list tends to have very underwhelming abilities as well.

End of the day, you’re sorta encouraged to multi class with this chassis. It makes for a decent endgame dip for a wizard at lvl 17 or alternatively you take a few lock or paladin lvls to improve the horrible defense.

Was it mostly having eldritch blast that made it feel better? Or was it other stuff as well? Any tips for anyone who would want to play a sorcerer?

[sambojin]

We just gave them one floating spell known at lvls 1-5, and two at lvl6+.

Can be any spell off the Sorcerer list that they could cast at that level, prepped at the end of each long rest, just like Clerics/Druids can.

It takes away a lot of the burden of being "locked into" your sorcerer build. You can try things out. You can apply your prodigious casting talents to niche situations across the course of an adventure. You can even flavour and reflavour the way you're developing as an adventurer.

It sort of represents your whimsy at your own abilities, or the exploration of your heritage. It's also not that powerful. I mean, it's only one normally prepped slot for many quicker adventures, and two for longer ones. But anyone that played a sorcerer loved it.

Since it's such a small amount, it doesn't really take away from the class. You still have some pretty hard build decisions to make. It just offers a lot of flexibility and freedom, and really comes into its own at about the same time every other class gets "pretty awesome at what they do" (lvl6). Until that time, you're just kind of learning what you can and should do. If you think that's too much too early, give them the second prep slot at 8th or 11th level.

It also, in some strange ways, makes them very unique as a casting class. Mostly known, but with a tiny bit of prepped, isn't a thing any other class does (especially alongside sorc points and font options and metamagic). It also doesn't underrate Bards, because bards are good at *so* many other things anyway.

Try it (or let a sorc player try it) and you'll see it's not exactly game breaking, it just brings them up to par with other full casters. In a very simple way.

[iTreeby]

Sorcerer needs some sorcerer only spells that have spell point interactions built in. Even if they aren't explicitly spelled out, making spells that work better or at least intuitively with metamagic would go a long way to making them more playable and special. Cantrips is a good starting point. Maybe a feature that is limited wish (but not a new spell called that, bards don't need the help) castable only with a hefty amount of spell points.

[heavyfuel]

My problem with the Sorcerer is that they're pretty much strictly inferior to both Wizards and Bards. Access to metamagic, which is weaker than it was in 3.x, and Con proficiency just doesn't cut it.

A lv 10 Wizard knows at least 24 spells and can prepare about 13~15 of them each day. A lv 10 Bard knows 14 spells, which they can cast spontaneously. The lv 10 Sorcerer only has 11 spells.

Even a Wizard that always prepares the same spells still has more utility than the Sorc. AND they also get to change their spells every day if they want.

The Bard has more spells and - to boot - is an amazing out of combat class, with extra skills, weapon and armor prof, inspiration (which I'm on the record saying is a broken ability by itself), expertise, and a built in gish or even-more-spells sub classes.

The only reason to play Sorcerer is if you really really really want Metamagic for whatever concept you're building.

Edit: Important to note that, despite all of its shortcomings, I still think the Sorc is definitely on the upper end of strongest classes in the game, it being a full caster and all. It just sucks compared to other full casters.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I have never played a sorcerer, but I have played WITH a couple, and the problem the class always seems to have is that they have a lot of ways to make what they do more powerful, but they don't have much to do in the first place. This is why sorcerer's do so well with warlock and paladin multiclasses, both of them give the sorcerer an at will ability that they can empower. (quicken becomes so much cooler when you have a cantrip that is worth the action you saved, twin becomes a lot cooler when your booming blade is worth twinning).

So if part of what makes those multiclasses fun is having some cool at will abilities that synergize well with the sorcerer's kit could we just... add them to the sorcerer?

Like maybe some cantrips that have something like "when you cast the cantrip you can spend x sorcery points to do y" or just a cantrip that acts like green flame blade but doesn't require martial weapons to be used effectively, or like a second level spell that adds some at will attack.

I don't know if there actually is a problem with sorcerers, both of the ones I have played with seemed like very effective characters, but there seems to be a problem of perception, where people feel like there sorcerer needs more cool things to do. Could we solve this by just adding more cool things to do? Or would that be unbalanced? Is there a different solution?

What do you think?

No, just adding Cantrips ain't going to fix the problem.

The biggest issue with the sorcerer isn't how many spells they know, but how limited their flexibility with them are. Metamagic options need to have a 0sp option when you take them.

Subtle Spell

0: Choose verbal or somatic components, you ignore your choice when you cast the spell.
1: You ignore both verbal and somatic components when casting a spell.

Get rid of flexible casting and focus on metamagic. No need to change SP to spell slots. If anything, just give them arcane recovery and be done with it (Wizards and Land Druids get this).

Also more metamagics (number you get and number to choose from).

Off the top of my head...

Level 1: Spellcasting, Sorcerous Origin
Level 2: Metamagic (2), Font of Magic (SP)
Level 3: Arcane Recovery
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Metamagic (3)
Level 6: Origin Feature
Level 7: Metamagic (4)
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: Metamagic (5)
Level 10: Origin Feature
Level 11: Metamagic (6)
Level 12: ASI
Level 13: Arcane Recovery (2 uses per long rest?)
Level 14: Sorcerous Restoration (2 points)
Level 15: Greater Metamagics
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: Sorcerous Restoration (4 points)
Level 18: Origin Feature
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Sorcerous Restoration (6 points)

Greater Metamagics would allow you to gain additional options for the Metamagics that you choose. The capstone is still rather bland, but, with all the other stuff combined it should be rather powerful.

Note: With this, I could see the sorcerer being a half caster if given even more Cantrips and even more flexibility.

[DeadMech]

My biggest pain point playing a divine soul sorcerer was spells known. If you stole the loremaster ability to cast any spell (or perhaps only just any spell available to you normally) that you have a spell slot for once or twice per long rest at some level interval it would make it easier to access interesting niche spells without dramatically screwing up your effectiveness.

[bendking]

Short answer: No.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The magic point from the DMG work great for me.