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Thrawn4
2020-06-18, 06:37 AM
Hello everyone.

So, at the moment I am tinkering with a new RPG system that assumes the player characters have some kind of new settlement to take care off. It's not meant to be the focus of the game (well, except for plot hooks), but I am still wondering...

how early a settlement would start to generate income (I assume not during the first few years...)?

whether the characters should be in charge of the same settlement (even more common interests than if they only live in the same region) or have their own settlements (more customisation)?

aglondier
2020-06-18, 07:53 AM
Which system are you using? I loved 2nd ed Birthright, and have had an avid interest in realm building ever since.

Thrawn4
2020-06-18, 08:20 AM
Which system are you using? I loved 2nd ed Birthright, and have had an avid interest in realm building ever since.

Homebrew system, although I think most basic considerations are the same, no matter the system.

So, what in particular holds your interest in regard to realm building?

JeminiZero
2020-06-18, 08:23 AM
how early a settlement would start to generate income (I assume not during the first few years...)?

It realistically depends on HOW the settlement produces income. When they first start getting stuff which they can sell.

If it's main money spinner is agriculture, you probably need till at least the first harvest, which also depends on crop (grains are harvest annually, trees may take several years).

Similarly for things like mining, again it depends on when they start pulling out ore/gems.

I imagine for certain trades such as hunting and lumberjacking, they should produce sellable goods relatively quickly.


whether the characters should be in charge of the same settlement (even more common interests than if they only live in the same region) or have their own settlements (more customisation)?

Take a look at Pathfinder Kingmaker. One mechanic they had was each PC becoming a minister over some area.

martixy
2020-06-18, 09:49 AM
Pathfinder 1e.

It has a splatbook called Ultimate Campaign which has extensive rules for base-building and kingdom-ruling (like half the book is dedicated to that).

D&D 3.5e had the Stronhold Builder's guide.

D&D 5e has the Strongholds and Followers splat, which details rules regarding... you guessed it.

Storm_Of_Snow
2020-06-18, 03:05 PM
It realistically depends on HOW the settlement produces income. When they first start getting stuff which they can sell.

If it's main money spinner is agriculture, you probably need till at least the first harvest, which also depends on crop (grains are harvest annually, trees may take several years).

Similarly for things like mining, again it depends on when they start pulling out ore/gems.

I imagine for certain trades such as hunting and lumberjacking, they should produce sellable goods relatively quickly.

And if it's a market town, it could be making money (charging traders for pitches and/or warehousing, taxation on money changers, inns and other service providers, and so on) almost immediately.

There's a difference between making money and making a profit of course.

Such a settlement would need to be on a trade route, and would also need local resource producers to help support it (although, depending on the terrain, it would likely generate such settlements as it grows, attracted by the ease of access to the wider economic system).

Similarly, a mining settlement in a gold rush would have a lot of money passing around before the mines become productive (if they ever do) - traders selling equipment to miners looking for their fortune, inns and brothels etc, all at highly inflationary prices.

Another possibility is effectively a rogue city-state, something like Tortuga from the Pirates of the Caribbean films, a remote settlement where the law is at best poorly enforced, at worst utterly corrupt and more likely working on the basis that the loser was asking for whatever the end result was.

Martin Greywolf
2020-06-22, 10:28 AM
This is a question without answer, there are too many things it depends on. Time period, location, laws, how much government of some sort is interested in investing and so on.

In general, though? It will be years before an average medieval village starts to be profitable, about a decade. Not because the things produced there won't have value, turnips go for some solid cash after all, but because you need to incentivize people to move there in the first place and give them infrastructure. For some rando village, that has the shape of tax exemptions for quite a while, as well as some further incentives, like being able to keep lucrative fish or something.

So, you are effectively removing your main source of revenue in hopes of it paying off later.

Just about the only exception to that is if you have some refugees to settle in their own village, then you can start taxing as soon as they are properly set up, which is about an entire harvesting season later.

That said, there are exceptions, mostly for towns that lure people with profit. Trade towns are an example, but you can't exactly put them where you please, they evolve over time by themselves, and it takes, in medieval setting, decades to centuries. If you have one, however, it will be immensely profitable.

Minig towns are your best bet - you can have a mine set up in a few weeks, if not sooner, and people are lured in by shiny things. Problem is, the local government is well aware of this and will either put the town under their exclusive control, or take a fat cut.

OGDojo
2020-06-22, 11:56 AM
theres a really nice system in Pathfinder, in ultimate campaign there are alot of rulings and systems in place for building buildings and time frames, hell they could even build a customized house for themselves if they want, you should check it out.

Thrawn4
2020-06-22, 02:42 PM
Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

About the setting: I was thinking medievil fantasy realm finds a new continent, and the players try to establish their own settlements at the frontier to rise from the ranks of low aristocracy.

Ressources: You raised excellent points on the matter of income and resources. Although gold rush would be a good idea, I am also considering special plants that only grow there (maybe potent healing herbs).


New question in regards to game design:
I am currently wondering whether the settlers should be serfs or free citizens. The former wouldn't have any way to refuse, although they might be offered freedom in return to keep them from running away. Free citizens would probably only be motivated by riches, although freedom of persecution might also work.
What makes for a better game, serfs or citizens? Maybe a mixture?

Lacco
2020-06-22, 04:01 PM
Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

About the setting: I was thinking medievil fantasy realm finds a new continent, and the players try to establish their own settlements at the frontier to rise from the ranks of low aristocracy.

Ressources: You raised excellent points on the matter of income and resources. Although gold rush would be a good idea, I am also considering special plants that only grow there (maybe potent healing herbs).

New question in regards to game design:
I am currently wondering whether the settlers should be serfs or free citizens. The former wouldn't have any way to refuse, although they might be offered freedom in return to keep them from running away. Free citizens would probably only be motivated by riches, although freedom of persecution might also work.
What makes for a better game, serfs or citizens? Maybe a mixture?

"Free land" as such is a good resource - especially if we are talking about new continent. I was going to suggest you check HarnManor, but considering building a new settlement in new land, it may perform sub-optimal. Still, would suggest it as good read, even if a bit focused on certain type of culture. There is also a nice xls with all the calculations already in which will give you nice overview of the economics behind. How exact it is related to history is beyond my capability to evaluate.

Very simplified answer to your other question:

Serfs provide their lord with good amount of work on his lands and some rent. In exchange for protection and some assistance (mainly related to justice).

Free citizens - yeomen, farmers, craftsmen - usually provide their lord with less amount of work, but higher rents and/or services. Yeomen provide military service, farmers pay their fees and craftsmen handle some tasks from the lord.

Considering your situation (new land, protected by the PCs), we could say that your players will be the equivalent of a lord. So when people decide to come under their protection, they may assign them the role - and when they get craftsmen or warriors, they may offer them free land. And when they get just peasants, serfdom. A valued members of the settlement may request free land (free as in "pay rent/tax" instead of "pay rent and work on my fields") and get it, while the anonymous masses may just become serfs and hope for their lord's benevolence.

Of course, peasants may revolt if treated unfairly... or just may cut corners, steal anything they can, hide profits instead of taxing them.

When you consider that conflict drives games better, a mixture of serfs and freeholders with few relatively rich and ambitious or just plain malicious and devious ones definitely helps.