PDA

View Full Version : Looking for interesting government types



NRSASD
2020-06-18, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone!

I've got a request for information for the Playground today. I've been doing a lot of thinking recently, and I want to include a non-eurocentric government type in my upcoming homebrew campaign. Ideally, this would be a Sub Saharan culture from sometime between 500 BCE until 1400 CE, but anything especially interesting would work. I'm not looking for history lessons (although they would be appreciated!), but I want at least a name so I can conduct further research on my own. I've realized this is a massive gap in my knowledge and I'd like to use my love of gaming to deepen my understanding of the non-eurocentric world.

As always, thanks for any and all help!

mindstalk
2020-06-18, 10:39 AM
Monarchy is widespread, not Eurocentric.

The Iroquois league had something worth reading about.

I've read that some other Native American realms had separate peace-chiefs and war-chiefs, with the former often being female, but I don't know details.

For Africa, I think I've heard of elective kingship, though that still has European parallels. "Secret societies". The only title I can recall is the Oba of Benin.

I think several societies were matrilineal, where the king would be brother or son of the royal woman, rather than son of the last king. This might be why pharaohs married their sisters, so their sons would inherit by also being their sister-sons. Again, far from certain.

Segev
2020-06-18, 11:38 AM
Typically, for sub-saharan Africa in that era, you'll tend to find tribal cultures. Those which form city-states will likely tend towards monarchy, de facto oligarchy, or theocracy. Often a combination of the three (a god-king monarch with an aristocracy of supporters who hold their position by supporting the current order, but who can threaten to withdraw support or to work against the leadership if things go far enough against them).

What's the society structure like in general? The broad feel. Are you looking for hunter-gatherer tribes, small agrarian start-up societies, the builders of the kinds of ruins Indiana Jones explored?

malloc
2020-06-18, 11:50 AM
As others have said, the shape power takes is pretty similar across nations and peoples. God-kings were very popular in African nations, as has been mentioned.

One element of African cultures that has not been addressed is ancestor worship and veneration of the elderly. Stressing those points will put you in less of a European direction. Like Asian cultures, but with less servile deference and more respect. The elderly are helped out of love and appreciation for the wisdom they have gained than just because they are old. More practical? I am having a hard time putting the difference in words.

Read the beginning of Roots for a snapshot at what I'm trying to describe in terms of aesthetic with respect to culture and age.

NRSASD
2020-06-18, 01:57 PM
In this case, I’m looking for an older culture the present day peoples look up to. The region is very loosely inspired by Lake Volta in Ghana, specifically the timber harvesting.

Segev
2020-06-18, 02:01 PM
In this case, I’m looking for an older culture the present day peoples look up to. The region is very loosely inspired by Lake Volta in Ghana, specifically the timber harvesting.

How accurate do you want the present-day peoples' view on this culture to be? Vs. how idealized? You could go full Rashoman on it and have each culture view the ancient one as having used their particular form of government, but idealized, and both use it for internal politics to "prove" their version of things right, and externally to demonstrate "how far those degenerate otherTribes have fallen" by using governmental, cultural, or religious practices that the viewpoint culture's version of the ancient culture had. Which, of course, are more or less just like the viewpoint culture's, because obviously the viewpoint culture is the true heir of the ancient culture and has accurately preserved their traditions, while all the others are "doing it wrong."

NRSASD
2020-06-18, 03:35 PM
How accurate do you want the present-day peoples' view on this culture to be? Vs. how idealized? You could go full Rashoman on it and have each culture view the ancient one as having used their particular form of government, but idealized, and both use it for internal politics to "prove" their version of things right, and externally to demonstrate "how far those degenerate otherTribes have fallen" by using governmental, cultural, or religious practices that the viewpoint culture's version of the ancient culture had. Which, of course, are more or less just like the viewpoint culture's, because obviously the viewpoint culture is the true heir of the ancient culture and has accurately preserved their traditions, while all the others are "doing it wrong."

Not sure yet. I know how I want to interpret it through the campaign’s present day lens, but I don’t know what I want it to be based on originally. Again, this is less a “looking for a specific system” and more “looking for non-Eurocentric systems”, because I’m very familiar with Eurocentric government systems and want to broaden my repertoire. To be honest, this entire homebrew campaign was created as a bit of a challenge to get me to avoid using any social structures I was familiar with.

Thanks for the ideas everyone! Keep them coming please :)

Khedrac
2020-06-18, 03:51 PM
Something I have come across in fiction as if it used to exist, but I am not sure if it ever did is variations on matriarchy.

For example:
1. All property is owned by women and passes in the female line (when men have need of a heir it is trhoug their sister's children)
However, men run all things - so a man runs a household, but it is owned by his wife. If she chooses to divorce him he has to leave with nothing.
2. More traditional ownership and control, but again, inheritance is maternal (so through your sister's children).
I am not sure how these would work with different- gender "marriages" (e.g. same sex or polygamy variants) but one shoudl be able to work something out if needed.

Then there is the government of Freehold in the novels by Michael Williamson (yes I know they are SciFi):
Government is by a citizen's council, however to join it takes a lot of money which is donated to the state that supplies the new citizen with a middle-class income. If you want to be rich you don't become a citizen.

Another one I think I saw in fiction, but I don't remember where:
When someone is chosen to be the ruler their personal wealth is confiscated and invested in the economy - when their term is up they get it back, increased if the economy did well, decreased if badly. Note thsi system uses guards to stop the (potential) rulers escaping.

One that probably won't be looked up to is government by soothsaying.

mindstalk
2020-06-18, 06:55 PM
Not really government, but the Aka (jungle hunter gatherers) and the Tuareg (northern nomads, similar to Bedouin) have one similarity: the women own the huts or tents, while Tuareg men own the animals. If the man comes home to find his stuff outside, he's been divorced.

The Oba isn't matrilineal but still has some oddities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Benin#Rituals_and_Law


Separation of son and mother

After the son was installed as king, his mother - after having been invested with the title of Iyoba - was transferred to a palace just outside Benin City, in a place called Uselu. The mother held a considerable amount of power; she was, however, never allowed to meet her son — who was now a divine ruler — again.[25]
Divinity of the Oba

In Benin, the Oba was seen as divine. The Oba's divinity and sacredness was the focal point of the kingship. The Oba was shrouded in mystery; he only left his palace on ceremonial occasions. It was previously punishable by death to assert that the Oba performed human acts, such as eating, sleeping, dying or washing. The Oba was also credited with having magical powers.[26]

But there is a "matrilineal belt" across sub-Saharan Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineal_belt Apparently linked to horticulture economies, q.v. "First, it generally encompasses a smaller scale of cultivation, using small plots of mixed crops rather than large fields of single crops. Secondly, horticultural cultivations generally include a wide variety of crops, even including fruit trees with ground crops."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#Society


Each Tuareg clan (tawshet) is made up of family groups constituting a tribe,[45] each led by its chief, the amghar. A series of tawsheten (plural of tawshet) may bond together under an Amenokal, forming a Kel clan confederation. Tuareg self-identification is related only to their specific Kel, which means "those of". For example, Kel Dinnig (those of the east), Kel Ataram (those of the west). The position of amghar is hereditary through a matrilineal principle, it is usual for the son of a sister of the incumbent chieftain to succeed to his position. The amenokal is elected in a ritual which differs between groups, the individual amghar who lead the clans making up the confederation usually have the deciding voice.

So combination of matrilineal chiefs and elected high chiefs/confederation leaders.

"According to tradition, the first Tuareg chief was a woman, Tin Hinan, the founder of the Ahaggar community."

"In Tuareg society women do not traditionally wear the veil, whereas men do"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality

"While a mother normally takes care of her own children in all cultures, in some matrilineal cultures an "uncle-father" will take care of his nieces and nephews instead: in other words social fathers here are uncles."

Of course, "Eurocentric" is a bad term if we get into details:

"While men held positions of religious and political power, Spartan constitution mandated that inheritance and proprietorship pass from mother to daughter.[22] ".

"In Pictish society, succession in leadership (later kingship) was matrilineal (through the mother's side), with the reigning chief succeeded by either his brother or perhaps a nephew but not through patrilineal succession of father to son.[23] "

In the Americas:

"The Great Binding Law of Peace, a constitution by which women retained matrilineal-rights and participated in the League's political decision-making, including deciding whether to proceed to war"

Tuareg again: "Tuareg social status is transmitted through women, with residence often matrilocal.[45] Most women could read and write, while most men were illiterate, concerning themselves mainly with herding livestock and other male activities." Though it says women owned the liverstock, contrary to my memory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serer_maternal_clans


The Serer woman play a vital role in royal and religious affairs. In pre-colonial times until the abolition of their monarchies, a Serer king would be required to crown his mother, maternal aunt or sister as Lingeer (queen) after his own coronation. This re-affirms the maternal lineage to which they both belong (Tim). The Lingeer was very powerful and had her own army and palace. She was the queen of all women and presided over female cases. From a religious perspective, the Serer woman plays a vital role in Serer religion.

"In their cosmogony, the supreme transedental deity Roog (or Koox among the Cangin) created a woman first before man was ever created from the same divine placenta."

https://them.polylog.org/2/fwk-en.htm


It is often remarked that decision making in traditional African life and governance was, as a rule, by consensus. ... The elders sit under the big trees, and talk until they agree... Ashanti: The qualifications for lineage headship are seniority in age, wisdom, a sense of civic responsibility and logical persuasiveness. All these qualities are often united in the most senior, but non-senile, member of the lineage. In that case, election is almost routine. But where these qualities do not seem to converge in one person, election may entail prolonged and painstaking consultations and discussions aimed at consensus. There is never an act of formal voting. Indeed, there is no longstanding word for "voting" in the language of the Ashantis. ... As the representative of the lineage in the governing council of a town, he or, in rare cases, she is in duty bound to hold consultations with the adult members of the lineage regarding municipal matters. In any matter of particular significance, consensus is always the watchword

Town chiefs:
The "natural" aspect of this position lies in its basic hereditary status: normally, a chief can only come from the royal lineage. But it is only basically hereditary, for a lineage being a quite substantial kinship group, there is at any one time a non-negligible number of qualified candidates. The choice, which is proposed by the "queen mother" (the mother or aunt or maternal sister or cousin of the chief), has to be approved by the council and endorsed by the populace through an organisation called, in literal translation, "the young people's association" in order to become final. ...

Contrary to a deliberately fostered appearance, the personal word of the chief was not law. His official word, on the other hand, is the consensus of his council, and it is only in this capacity that it may be law; which is why the Akans have the saying that there are no bad kings, only bad councilors.

[B]ecause the king was surrounded by councilors whose offices were political, and was himself only a representation of the unity of the people, it was quite possible to remove him from office.

Moreover, in every Ashanti town the youth constituted themselves into an organized party under a recognized leader who was entitled to make representations directly (though not as a member) to the relevant council

Segev
2020-06-19, 01:17 PM
There are various forms of oligarchy and limited democracy, from Elector Counts electing a ruling king (either for a term or for life) to direct democracy with a relatively small number of people eligible to vote ("landowners" or "mages" or "nobles").

There's a sort-of inverse USA mechanism where a ruling monarch has power checked by some sort of council that has veto power over his decisions: they can't pass laws, but they can, with a majority, super-majority, or unanimous (depending on their rules) vote, stop him from passing them. How this council is chosen or filled also creates differences in what the government is doing and who it represents, from a senate chosen by the gentry to a group of nobles who are hereditary to literally people buying their way onto the council as the only means the king has to raise money.

Semi-direct democracy, where there're too many people who have the right to vote (whether it's "all citizens" or just a subset, like "men" or "women" or "landowners" or "clergy" or "mages") to count all of them every time, so people can sign their vote over to proxies, who then become increasingly powerful the more votes they hold the proxy for as they show up to vote.

Oligarchical councils with rotating chairmanships. A rotating king with an oligarchical council that can veto his decisions.

"Drawing lots" can be seen as a means of divining deific will on a matter. This could be combined with any form of direct or representative democracy by having votes on issues being used as "lots." So, for example, in voting to approve or disapprove a bill on whether to ban wearing white after labor day, voters (whether a legislature, council of oligarchs, aristocracy, or direct democratic vote) would place "yay" or "nay" slips (or maybe stones) into a big box, and then the whole thing would be shuffled around, and a single slip drawn. The drawn slip would be the final decision. Having people vote changes the probability, but the final decision is left up to the gods to dictate by virtue of what's drawn forth. (If honesty of the draw-ers is questioned, a "for" and "against" person might be allowed to each draw, and if their slips don't agree, they keep re-drawing until they do.)

ngilop
2020-06-19, 06:41 PM
I have to agree with what some previous posters have said that forms of rule/leadership are not inherently "Eurocentric".

I think the best way you could help us in aiding you in creating form of ruler/leadership is by defining exactly what you mean by "non-Eurocentric" OR what you mean by 'Eurocentric" because as other posters have laid out, the 'Eurocentric' ruler/leadership forms are varied.

mindstalk
2020-06-19, 06:56 PM
Well, they're asking for tips on non-Eurocentric, so they probably don't know; more productive would be listing what they think *are* Eurocentric, and then we could suggest alternatives.

3drinks
2020-06-20, 09:59 AM
It's not exciting, but I use a democratic republic of elected officials in my campaign, with the head of it a president, vice president, and even a speaker of the house. The role of politics being unpaid beyond a stipend for living expenses, and of a culture where it's considered a great honour to perform this service to your community. All roles except the presidential cabinet are relegated to a maximum of one term rotations.

So, like a representation of American government, but without the political party BS and that the government actually functions.

VoxRationis
2020-06-20, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure about what sort of game you're running, but in a fantasy campaign where the gods may be contacted readily, a government whose policy decisions are completely dictated by divination would be reasonably practical. You'd probably end up with a class of oracles that ask the questions and a (possibly separate) class of judges that apply the answers that have already been received (so as not to bug Zeus or what have you with the same question ten thousand times).

I'm also not quite sure how developed you want this state and culture to (have) be(en), but you could try looking at big man type organization, where primacy in a community is based on a mixture of social clout and individual wealth, which is often spent in large displays such as communal feasts. It's not going to make the trains run on time, but in an environment with lower population and less need for centralized administration, it might work.

More generally, if you want to distinguish the culture from modern Western ideas of the state, you could try looking at non-Westphalian considerations of sovereignty, such as the mandala structure of intersecting spheres of influence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala_(political_model)) or try avoiding the concept of "the government" as a thing in general. Replace descriptions of the form "the state/government is...." with descriptions along the lines of "we do..."