how to cheat 100gp familiar summoning cost?

[newguydude1]

call me a weirdo but i dont like relying on abilities that require a civilization to function.

familiar ritual components are too vague for me to source in the wild.

so is there a way to cheat it?

eschew materials + fabricate to create nothing doesnt work because fabricate still needs to target something.
true creation + eschew materials doesnt work because "magical materials". true creation is explicitly non magical.

create archon and have the archon scrounge up the materials? but how would it know what to get?

[daremetoidareyo]

Survival up some food and sell it?

[newguydude1]

Survival up some food and sell it?

buying and selling is a market. market only exist in civilization. im still relying on it.

[Gruftzwerg]

and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.

Iirc "magical materials" ain't really defined. And the text doesn't say "magic items"!
You could argue that spell components are also magical materials. Be creative if you are the DM or check with your DM what is possible.

Note that these kind of thing aren't meant to cripple you just because you aren't in a civilized environment.
It's more about the 100g value and that it may not be something as simple as e.g. 100g worth of mud/grass/junk/trees/whatsoever. This indicates that the DM has some minor room to hinder the PC if he really feels the need for it. But in most situations where you have wealth worth of 100g, you should be able to use the ability.

[Vizzerdrix]

buying and selling is a market. market only exist in civilization. im still relying on it.

Isn't their some rule that art objects are as good as cash? Fluff it as having to carve a little statute of the wanted familiar of at least 100gp value.

[ranagrande]

The Book of Exalted Deeds has a rule allowing casters to substitute XP for the cost of material components at 1/5 ratio.

So instead of spending 100gp for the materials and ritual, you can sacrifice 20xp and call it good.

[newguydude1]

The Book of Exalted Deeds has a rule allowing casters to substitute XP for the cost of material components at 1/5 ratio.

So instead of spending 100gp for the materials and ritual, you can sacrifice 20xp and call it good.

omg! this just might work!



A character who has forsaken material possessions may find himself at a marked disadvantage when it comes to certain necessary expenses, such as expensive material components. One
option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other party members, who are probably gaining as much benefit from having the spell cast as the caster is. Alternatively, an ascetic spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components

whole section is about vow of poverty so only vow of poverty characters can use xp. doesnt matter. i will spend 2 feats!

also expensive material components is an example, not the only thing. and familiar ritual cost can be classified as "necessary expenses".


Isn't their some rule that art objects are as good as cash? Fluff it as having to carve a little statute of the wanted familiar of at least 100gp value.

i dont control fluff. dm does. and he is a raw or die guy. so unless there is a rule saying art objects can be used for familiar ritual hes gonna say no.

[Telonius]

If you want to do it totally without support, Profession: Miner should probably get it. Dig up enough nuggets and melt them down into coins.

[newguydude1]

If you want to do it totally without support, Profession: Miner should probably get it. Dig up enough nuggets and melt them down into coins.

coins arent magical materials.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

coins arent magical materials.According to a commercial I watched, investing in gold is definitely magical.

[Telonius]

Well, what's he counting as magical materials then? Maybe four scrolls of Magic Missile? Ask him to define what you'd need to get, since the game doesn't. If he's willing to argue that an actual magic item is not a magic material, or otherwise unwilling to tell you, you're kind of up a creek (and dealing with somebody I would rather not game with).

[newguydude1]

Well, what's he counting as magical materials then? Maybe four scrolls of Magic Missile? Ask him to define what you'd need to get, since the game doesn't. If he's willing to argue that an actual magic item is not a magic material, or otherwise unwilling to tell you, you're kind of up a creek (and dealing with somebody I would rather not game with).

if raw doesnt specify magical materials then i can only get it by buying from a magic shop. my dm is raw or die.

[Gruftzwerg]

if raw doesnt specify magical materials then i can only get it by buying from a magic shop. my dm is raw or die.

ask him kindly where RAW does specify that you can only buy "magic materials" from a magic shop and that they can't be gathered in some other way?

If RAW doesn't specify what "magical materials" is, it's his job to do so. And if he tries to limit your access to those things, he is just a jerk, cause we are talking about a lvl 1 ability. The intention behind the 100G is that you don't get it at start at lvl1 (unless you are for some reason rich) but as soon as your wbl could effort it. Once you have accumulated 100wbl it is intended that you may spent it on it. Unless you play a poor campaign with limited WBL and gear, there is no reason to cripple the use of calling a familiar.
We are talking about a lvl 1 class feature here, not some obscure secret/rare magic item/ritual with the potential to break the game...

[Telonius]

if raw doesnt specify magical materials then i can only get it by buying from a magic shop. my dm is raw or die.

I'd go with, "Die, bye." It's not going to get any less annoying from there.

[Bronk]

call me a weirdo but i dont like relying on abilities that require a civilization to function.

That would be rude, but I do think wizard is the wrong set of classes to try this with!


so is there a way to cheat it?

I see two options.

A: Start the game with a familiar.

and B: Find a familiar that you don't have to summon. For that, you have another four options! (At least, that I can think of right now...)

1: Kill a magic user with a familiar and take the familiar for your own. Familiars keep their 'familiarness' with the death of their master, and can attach themselves to someone new. Eh, I suppose you could just ask a really old yet really weak wizard to pass their familiar on through diplomacy...

2: Make a deal with an imp, and have it become your familiar. That's a thing they do to get into a better position to gain more souls.

3: Make your own construct familiar (dragon magazine somewhere, AFB)

and 4: Find and take control of Golden the Clockwork Cat (probably the same dragon magazine). It's a preexisting loose housecat construct that can become someone's familiar.

[Thurbane]

Here's a list of "optional" material components. Bearing in mind that "magical materials" is not a defined game term, no matter how RAW minded your DM is, some of these may count.

You may be able to scrounge at least some of these up with a Survival check or something similar.


BoED p. 37

Ambrosia (distilled joy)
Angel radiance
Blink dog tooth
Celestial blood
Couatl feather
Couatl scale
Lammasu claw
Lillend scale
Pegasus feather
Phoenix feather
Unicorn blood
Unicorn horn (sliver)
Unicorn tail hair

BoVD p.45

Agony (liquid pain)
Beast brain fluid
Bit of lycanthrope fur or skin
Bit of ochre jelly or gray ooze
Chromatic dragon heart
Demon flesh
Demon heart
Devil’s heart
Feather of an intelligent creature
Humanoid bone
Humanoid brain
Humanoid eye
Humanoid finger
Humanoid hand
Humanoid heart
Metallic dragon heart
Soul in larval form
Soul in receptacle
Tongue of creature capable of speech
Vial of humanoid blood
Vrock feather
Yugoloth’s brain

CC p.131

Angel’s Blood
Ashes of Power
Aurial Sapphire
Crypt Powder
Doppelganger Bile
Dragon Ruby
Essence of Order
Feather of the Far Reaches
Game of Fate
Guardinal Feather
Hero’s Tears
Horn of Gorgon
Kiss of Discord
Obaddis Leaf
Pearl of the Waves
Scholar’s Dreams
Soil of Stone
Sunflower of Pelor
Talon of Ehlonna
True Warrior’s Blade
Twilight Green
Unicorn Horn

CM p.135

Angel down
Devil's eye
Dragon's tear
Fairy button
Fairy dust
Golden desert honey
Possibility dust
Primal essence
Serpents' tongue
Singing shell

ECS p91

Cathier spleen
Covadish leaves
Dragonseye acorn
Hathil root
Irian crystal
Kieros leaves
Laskin horn
Mabar crystal
Masthin shoots
Narstone
Reath leaves


Frostburn

Primitive Caster feat
Snowcasting feat

[Fizban]

if raw doesnt specify magical materials then i can only get it by buying from a magic shop. my dm is raw or die.
Then they're gonna have some real egg on their face when they're eventually forced to grapple with the fact that "RAW" doesn't cover everything. It's in the RAW. So I'd second the "K, die then bye," in the sense that I never would have agreed to the game in the first place.

As for answering the question, the closest thing to a "RAW" hack is the fact that there is a craft/profession skill for everything, and everything you buy comes from a person that is using a skill to run their shop*. So you take Craft: Ritual Components (if these are worked materials) or Profession: Component Gatherer (if they're supposedly unworked materials you "can't just find"), and then roll your weekly checks until you hit a total of 100gp.

Oh, but the skill says you're supposed to get gp from people? Unspecified components are valued at their exact gp cost, making them a trade good, and equivalent to gp. Gathering trade goods worth X gp is literally the same thing as "earning a living" expressed in gold pieces. And you know what the skill doesn't say? The skill says nothing about a requirement that you work in town or even with other people at all.

*Of course what you're actually doing is using an intentional gap in the RAW to write your own entry. The same exact way RAW is God people take the item creation guidelines and claim they have to right to custom items which actually require DM permission, or take rules interpretations which no published work would ever intend and claim they're completely intentional.

But seriously, don't expect that to actually work. You say you don't want to have to rely on a town, the DM says "no, you have to get it from a town," and instead of stating their actual reason, they hide behind "RAW."

If they had actually thought it through and deliberately decided they want to be able to control when and where you're allowed to bond a familiar, they would (or should) have said so, such as "I think it's better if familiar bonding requires more controlled circumstances so you should have to wait until you return to town," or even, "I see the trappings of wizardry as a high level technological achievement which requires whole support infrastructure you can't replicate by yourself, so you need to buy it in town."

Or at least this is the presumed answer, since you haven't even bothered asking yet.


whole section is about vow of poverty so only vow of poverty characters can use xp. doesnt matter. i will spend 2 feats!

also expensive material components is an example, not the only thing. and familiar ritual cost can be classified as "necessary expenses".
So your response to a presumed "RAW= No" answer on finding a different source to buy stuff for a class feature with a 100gp cost most people don't even think about, because you don't want to be tied to civilization, is that you're going to be an Exalted character with Vow of Poverty? An Exalted character, who is required to uphold the absolute utmost virtues of goodness and permanently loses all Exalted abilities permanently if they ever take single step out of line, with a DM who is, in your own words, "RAW or die." In a game where the definition of Good is helping others at risk or cost to yourself. A Vow of Poverty character, who is required to take their share of treasure and hand it to the needy and the church, both of which are literally parts of civilization that you cannot possibly access without one or in the wild.

I just. What. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

if raw doesnt specify magical materials then i can only get it by buying from a magic shop. my dm is raw or die.

There is no RAW for what "magical materials" are or where specifically you can buy them. Your GM is houseruling against you.

[newguydude1]

There is no RAW for what "magical materials" are or where specifically you can buy them. Your GM is houseruling against you.

how is this different from magical supplies when crafting rods or swords? do dms have to tell you that bombardier glands have to be mixed with bombs that was in the stomach of an otyugh before you can buy it? no you just go to a shop, buy "supplies" and thats it and the supply availability is governed by dmg demographic rules.

[Psyren]

how is this different from magical supplies when crafting rods or swords? do dms have to tell you that bombardier glands have to be mixed with bombs that was in the stomach of an otyugh before you can buy it? no you just go to a shop, buy "supplies" and thats it and the supply availability is governed by dmg demographic rules.

What rule says you need a "shop" or even "civilization" to craft a rod or sword? The crafting rules say you need a quiet place suitable for preparing spells - not a "shop." You're the one imposing the civilization restriction (or your DM is.)

[Gruftzwerg]

how is this different from magical supplies when crafting rods or swords? do dms have to tell you that bombardier glands have to be mixed with bombs that was in the stomach of an otyugh before you can buy it? no you just go to a shop, buy "supplies" and thats it and the supply availability is governed by dmg demographic rules.

If you go by RAW an items availability is determined my its value/rareness and the population of the city/town you are atm.
Stuff worth 100g (e.g. a chainshirt) are available on almost every corner..
Your DM would need to make up a reason why it is not available. If nobody of the party has access to items worth of 100g it's fine. But if the fighter gets his chain-shirt and you still have to beg, somethings fishy ..

btw, where is the rule that magic items are sold by magic markets? IIRC there is no RAW that would demand that.
It's just that most people assume you would go to a magic stuff vendor. But imho that assumption is flawed.
You see, in 3.5 normally you assume a high magic fantasy word. This means that low lvl magic (items) are nothing more special than an expensive device. Even the smallest village has likely at least a temple with a priest cappable of doing some lvl1 stuff. So you have a magic user who likely has gathered some magic supplies. It's really silly to assume that you couldn't get the stuff for a longer period without some special reason.

[Thurbane]

It sounds like the issue is a combo of both the DM and OP.

The OP specifically doesn't want to go to a "civilized" area to get the required supplies, and the DM is saying that those supplies can only be obtained in a populated area from a store.

A little give on either side, or compromise from both, should easily be able to resolve the issue.

Either the PC sucks it up and visits a store for the materials; or the DM lets the player use another source - maybe a mad old hermit in the woods that happens to be a mage with the supplies in his hut.

At the end of the day, it sounds like a massive headache for both sides to bicker about 100gp worth of stuff.

[Psyren]

The idea that uncivilized/tribal spellcasters, like druids, shamans, witches and the like are forbidden from crafting any magic items or obtaining a familiar without stopping in a city is mind-blowing to me. Or casters from more savage societies like a Hobgoblin alchemist or a Wood Elf wizard.

A potential compromise might be to find a traveling peddler/merchant/caravan, and buy your "magical supplies" from them. That way the GM can say the stuff ultimately came from "civilization" without your character having to go there and violate their beliefs or whatnot.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Use the survival or knowledge nature or geography skill as if it was craft/profession/perform to gather 100gp worth of materials from the wild?

It's going to take a while, sure, but it sort of almost works within the rules. (The XP thing is probably easier.)

[Darrin]

Well, there's the old mount trick. Cast mount, find a village, sell it to a horse-trader, and then never go back to that village if you can avoid it.

Somewhat more boring solution would be to hang your shingle out in the town square, offer to cast spells for GP. Spellcasting services are 10 x spell level x caster level.

[farothel]

If your DM allows you only to buy magical materials at a shop, my first question would be: 'and how do they get those materials'?

Thurbane gave a nice list, and you can expand on that. Almost anything that comes from a dragon can be considered magical (and often quite valuable) and there are dragons you can negotiate with. Of course you probably get the short end of the stick they are quite smart, but it can be done.

Every critter with magical abilities can IMO considered to be magical and certain of its bodyparts can therefore be used. And they can be gathered in the wild by searching for the critters.

[newguydude1]

The idea that uncivilized/tribal spellcasters, like druids, shamans, witches and the like are forbidden from crafting any magic items or obtaining a familiar without stopping in a city is mind-blowing to me. Or casters from more savage societies like a Hobgoblin alchemist or a Wood Elf wizard.

you can with homebrew. but raw or die people dont homebrew, so if something says homebrew he says no. like savage species progressions. he allows all official savage species progression, but you ask him to make one for a monster not in the savage species book, he says no.



A potential compromise might be to find a traveling peddler/merchant/caravan, and buy your "magical supplies" from them. That way the GM can say the stuff ultimately came from "civilization" without your character having to go there and violate their beliefs or whatnot.

he has the shops available. we have mundanes in our group so if there is no shop they cant function so shops are available, not all the time and not always metropolis.

i just dont want to use it. i have psion who doesnt need shops. but i want to play with wizard or sorcerer so im making threads to see if there is a way to get what i want.

raw thread showed a little problem with vop.

[Psyren]

you can with homebrew. but raw or die people dont homebrew, so if something says homebrew he says no. like savage species progressions. he allows all official savage species progression, but you ask him to make one for a monster not in the savage species book, he says no.




he has the shops available. we have mundanes in our group so if there is no shop they cant function so shops are available, not all the time and not always metropolis.

i just dont want to use it. i have psion who doesnt need shops. but i want to play with wizard or sorcerer so im making threads to see if there is a way to get what i want.

raw thread showed a little problem with vop.

If you have people in your party that are going to she shop anyway, and your GM has ruled that the shop is the only place to get these materials, can't your party members buy the materials for you?

[ShurikVch]

Rules for Summon Familiar from the Midnight Campaign Setting "requires a sacrifice of 5 days worth of food." How about it?

Try your PC to ask around if any arcane caster died recently, then go and check if their Familiar is still alive; if yes - ask it to become your Familiar

Also, "RAW or die"? You know what else is RAW? Wealth-by-level! So, demand your DM to fulfill their end of RAW and provide your PC with appropriate amount of WbL

[newguydude1]

If you have people in your party that are going to she shop anyway, and your GM has ruled that the shop is the only place to get these materials, can't your party members buy the materials for you?

its not that i cant its that i dont want to play characters whose entire strategy is broken by lack of wealth. i use wealth as a bonus, not as a core part of my strategy. psion is enhanced by quori power link shards but its not mandatory which is great. ancestral weapon characters lose everything if that weapon is misplaced like being taken prisoner so i dont play ancestral weapon characters.

i am planning a character that revolves solely around improved familiar and mirror mephit, so i want my character to be not broken by lack of access to magic shop. regardless of whether my dm gives it to me or not.

vow of poverty seems to completely work with no hiccups (it might not replace eschew materials though) so im probably gonna grab that and pay 20xp.


Rules for Summon Familiar from the Midnight Campaign Setting "requires a sacrifice of 5 days worth of food." How about it?

Try your PC to ask around if any arcane caster died recently, then go and check if their Familiar is still alive; if yes - ask it to become your Familiar

Also, "RAW or die"? You know what else is RAW? Wealth-by-level! So, demand your DM to fulfill their end of RAW and provide your PC with appropriate amount of WbL

i just want to be absolutely clear. my dm is not starving me of wealth or shops. i am trying to build a new character and i hate characters that are broken by lack of access to shops and money. its a personal thing, not a dm thing.

[Psyren]

Wealth is a core part of the game though. The DMG says so for a reason.

But if Vow of Poverty works for you and you're having fun, then that's all that matters - happy gaming.

[ShurikVch]

i just want to be absolutely clear. my dm is not starving me of wealth or shops. i am trying to build a new character and i hate characters that are broken by lack of access to shops and money. its a personal thing, not a dm thing.
Do you understand: you may be just the first player ever to have such problem?
No - don't get me wrong: to be independent of shops is OK (especially for a Wizard); but Familiar is a freaking class feature - and you don't buy class features in a shops (at least, usually).
That means: you already have the stuff to summon your Familiar (just like you also have that extra-expensive spellbook); but doing the actual summoning would also deduce 100 gp from your WbL (to represent magical stuff which was spent)

If your lack of necessary materials is already established fact in-game, then ask DM for an encounter (or three) where you would be able to acquire it

[smetzger]

i just want to be absolutely clear. my dm is not starving me of wealth or shops. i am trying to build a new character and i hate characters that are broken by lack of access to shops and money. its a personal thing, not a dm thing.

I don't really understand this. It's 100gp, not 50,000gp.

Your character won't be broken without a familiar. As for money it is inevitable that you will get some. Just wait until you have some then save it until you happen across a shop that has what you need. Buy what you need and get extra supplies for when you don't have access to a shop. Tada you aren't 'dependent' on gold or shops, you just utilize them when you run across them.

[gogogome]

By strictest RAW you can use any magical materials for the ritual.

So either gather anything on Thurbane's list

Here's a list of "optional" material components. Bearing in mind that "magical materials" is not a defined game term, no matter how RAW minded your DM is, some of these may count.

You may be able to scrounge at least some of these up with a Survival check or something similar.



or

gather mundane materials
cast Create Lantern Archon
Have the Lantern Archon cast Continual Flame on the materials.
voila you now have magical materials.

[newguydude1]

By strictest RAW you can use any magical materials for the ritual.

So either gather anything on Thurbane's list


or

gather mundane materials
cast Create Lantern Archon
Have the Lantern Archon cast Continual Flame on the materials.
voila you now have magical materials.

omg! i think your right! lol
no homebrew raw only, i think your right.
with homebrew as others said dm shouldnt stop me from gathering supplies in the wild

lol nice. ok ty! no vow of poverty!