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View Full Version : AD&D 2E--monster saving throws... WTFmate?



Reel On, Love
2007-10-28, 02:19 AM
So I actually joined a 2E (core--Plus House Rules, as inevitably happens with 2E). The DM is in my Spirit of the Century game (which was a big leap for an AD&D player, although he's enjoying it a lot), and invited a bunch of us to try his game; I'm looking it at it as an interesting experience in wargaming, and, well, Dealing With DM Improvisation And Poorly Designed Outdated Rules. Heh.
Everyone's got two characters, rolled a bunch of stat sets, rolled some character creation stuff for social status/background/etc... long story short, I'm a not-quite-married pair of elven nobles, a Fighter/Mage and a Bard. The Fighter/Mage in particular is going to rock, what with 18 DEX, 16 INT, and double specialization (house rule--comes after normal specialization, bringing it up to +3/+3) in darts, which have a rate-of-fire of 3/round.


Here's the thing: the DM is used to spells either doing damage, or, in the rare cases that they don't (since apparently no one uses, oh, Glitterdust in 2E?) using an ability check (roll under X stat) for the monster, with on-the-fly-approximated bonuses/penalties, for saving throws.

I was astounded, until I took a look at the Monster Manuals and such and saw that the saves for the monsters are not listed!

So, with that, I ask you guys: How on earth does one figure out the saving throws for monsters? Classes have a chart, but kobolds, orcs, dragons... I don't see any way of telling, much less a quick way.

Pronounceable
2007-10-28, 02:26 AM
I thought they all had "saves as an xth level y" written somewhere in their description.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-28, 02:31 AM
That'd be nice, but they don't. Neither in the books I saw, nor in my Monstrous Manual PDF.

Fhaolan
2007-10-28, 02:34 AM
It's in the DMG, under Rolling Saving Throws (pg 65 in my printing/version).

All creatures save vs. Poison & Death as Level = HD
Intelligent creatures save vs everything else as Level = HD
Non-intelligent save vs everything else as Level = 1/2 HD

Every +4 or fraction hp above the normal HD counts as another HD. So a creature with 5+6 HD would save as a 7th level character (5 + 1 for the first 4 hp +1 for the remaining 2 hp).

All creatures save as whatever class the DM considers them to be closest to. If they are primarily combat monsters, they use Warrior. If they are primarily an arcane spellcaster, they use Wizard. So on and so forth. It's completely up to the DM.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-28, 02:51 AM
Ah-ha! A little complicated, isn't it?
Thank you.

JadedDM
2007-10-28, 03:21 AM
Actually, using Glitterdust (as well as Blindness and Light on a person's eyes) is a very common tactic in my 2E game.

But yeah, you just use the normal saving throws table, and treat the monster's HD as its level. I usually use the Warriors table, but I'll use a different one if I feel it's appropriate. So a monster with 8 HD would save as an 8th level fighter.

On occasion, the MM entry will specify how a creature saves. In those cases, use that rule instead.

greenknight
2007-10-28, 04:37 AM
It's hard to say what the rules of a 2nd Ed game really are, since much of it is usually homebrew. But here's some things to keep in mind:

1) Spellbooks are really expensive - a 100 page book costs 5,000gp, according to the DMG. My advice - go around mugging 1st level Wizards and selling their books. Those blank pages are worth a fortune! :smalleek:

2) Items of protection provide both AC and Saving Throw bonuses, and usually stack (although two Rings of Protection don't stack with each other, and the AC bonus doesn't stack with regular armor). At higher levels, try to combine some Bracers of Defence AC 2 with a Ring of Protection +3 and a Cloak of Protection +5. That would give your Fighter/Mage an AC of -10 and a bonus to saves of +8. A 1 would save for most things by level 9 for your character, unless the DM is using the rule from DM's Option which states 3 or less always fails (or something similar). :smallcool:

3) Multiclassing generally doesn't work out too well beyond level 10 or 11 because of the way the XP charts are set out. And if the DM decides to go with Slow Advancement, it gets even worse... :smallyuk:

Premier
2007-10-28, 06:41 AM
1) Spellbooks are really expensive - a 100 page book costs 5,000gp, according to the DMG. My advice - go around mugging 1st level Wizards and selling their books. Those blank pages are worth a fortune! :smalleek:

Just be careful who you sell it to... non-magicians are unlikely to be interested, and magicians are very much likely to be curious how you acquired a spellbook...

Matthew
2007-10-28, 07:08 AM
Attribute Checks as Saving Throws is one of the options from the 2e PHB/DMG. It's usually used for things like dodging falling rocks, etc... It's also not a particularly satisfactory mechanic, but that's another issue. What's interesting is that your DM has actually given his Monsters Attributes to roll against, which aren't listed in the Monster Manual either! Granting Bonuses and Penalties on the fly is exactly the same as in 3e, they're just circumstance modifiers.



Ability Checks as Saving Throws

When a character attempts to avoid danger through the use of one of his abilities, an ability check can be used in lieu of a saving throw.
For example, Ragnar the thief has broken into someone's home when he hears a grating noise from the ceiling above him. He looks up to find a five-ton block of the ceiling headed straight for him! He is going to need speedy reactions to get out of the way, so a Dexterity ability check should be rolled to see if he avoids the trap.

Modifying Saving Throws

Saving throws can be modified by magical items, specific rules, and special situations. These modifiers can increase or decrease the chance of a successful saving throw.
Modifiers that increase the chance are given as a number preceded by a plus sign. Modifiers that make success more difficult are given as a number preceded by a minus sign (-1, -2, etc.)
Saving throw modifiers affect a character's die roll, not the saving throw number needed. Thus, if Delsenora needed an 11 for a successful saving throw vs. petrification and had a +1 bonus to her save, she would still need to roll an 11 or higher after all adjustments were made. But the +1 bonus would be added to her die roll, so that effectively she needs to roll only a 10 on the die to reach her saving throw number of 11.
High ability scores in Dexterity and Wisdom sometimes give saving throw bonuses. A high Wisdom protects against illusions, charms, and other mental attacks. Dexterity, if high enough, can give a character a slightly higher chance of avoiding the effects of fireballs, lightning bolts, crushing boulders, and other attacks where nimbleness may be a help.
Magical items like cloaks and rings of protection give bonuses to a character's saving throw (these are listed in the item descriptions in the appendices).
Magical armor allows a saving throw bonus only when the save is made necessary by something physical, whether normal or magical. Magical armor never gives a saving throw bonus against gas (which it cannot block), poison (which operates internally), and spells that are mental or that cause no physical damage.
For example, magical armor would not help a character's saving throw against the sting of a giant scorpion, the choking effects of a stinking cloud spell, or the transformation effect of a polymorph other spell. However, magical armor extends its protective power to saving throws against acid sprays or splashes, disintegration, magical and normal fires, spells that cause damage, and falls (if any saving throw is allowed in this case). Other situations must be handled on a case-by-case basis by the DM.
Specific spells and magical items have effects, both good and ill, on a character's saving throws. Often, spells force the victim to save with a penalty, which makes even the most innocuous spell quite dangerous. Specific information can be found in the spell descriptions, for spells, or in the Magical Items section, for magical items.
Minor poisons of verminous creatures such as giant centipedes, while dangerous, are weak and unlikely to bring about death in a healthy man. To recreate this effect in the game, a saving throw bonus is allowed for anyone affected by these poisons.
Unpredictable situations are sure to crop up. When this happens, the DM must determine whether saving throw modifiers are appropriate. As a guideline, modifiers for situations should range from -4 to +4. An evil cleric attacked in his shrine could very well have a +3 bonus to all his saving throws and a -3 penalty applied to those of his enemies. The powerful evil of the place could warrant the modifier.
DM modifiers should be used sparingly, and only when appropriate. If constantly assigned, they will no longer feel special to the player whose character's fate hangs on the toss of a single die.




Ah-ha! A little complicated, isn't it?

The method of determination isn't really any more complicated than what is presented in 3e. The difference is just that they don't list them in the 2e Monster Manual, which would have been useful.

However, Castles & Crusades (more or less AD&D by another name) uses a better mechanic, in my opinion, giving Monsters a Saving Throw equal to their Hit Dice, so 1HD = 19, 2HD =18, etc...

Double Speciailisation ain't no House Rule. You can find it in the 1e Unearthed Arcana and later in the Player's Option Series. It is usually regarded as unbalanced, though, especially in combination with Darts, which ended up getting their own special rule.

Dervag
2007-10-28, 11:28 AM
Just be careful who you sell it to... non-magicians are unlikely to be interested, and magicians are very much likely to be curious how you acquired a spellbook...Unless, of course, they live in a world where this sort of thing happens all the time. There are many fantasy settings (such as the pre-Ridcully books of Terry Pratchett's Discworld) where it would be quite reasonable for one wizard to kill another to gain access to their spellbook.

On the other hand, 1st edition wizards (and 2nd edition wizards, given that 2nd edition is effectively 1.5) might very well work on an apprenticeship system, such that most low level wizards spend almost all their time close to another, more powerful wizard. This more powerful wizard will presumably protect their investment, and getting past him will present a danger commensurate with the reward of stealing an unscribed spellbook.

JadedDM
2007-10-28, 05:49 PM
At higher levels, try to combine some Bracers of Defense AC 2 with a Ring of Protection +3 and a Cloak of Protection +5. That would give your Fighter/Mage an AC of -10 and a bonus to saves of +8.

Yeah, but...good luck finding all of those. One cannot simply walk into a magic store and purchase them in 2E, like they can in 3E (unless the DM went out of his way to create a magic pricing system).

Kurald Galain
2007-10-28, 06:52 PM
On the other hand, 1st edition wizards (and 2nd edition wizards, given that 2nd edition is effectively 1.5)

No, it's not 1.5 - AD&D is probably 1.2, then Unearthed Arcana is 1.4, then 2nd ed is 1.6, and Skills & Powers is 1.8. Or something.

Lemur
2007-10-28, 07:12 PM
If you're specialized in darts, you actually get a rate of fire of 4/round, which goes up at 7th and 13th level (if you ever reach that). You can also throw one more with your offhand, at a -2 penalty (TWF penalties are -2/-4, reduced by your reaction adjustment). It gets even better if you have a str bonus to damage. Mmmm, 2nd ed. darts.

Matthew
2007-10-28, 07:27 PM
If you're specialized in darts, you actually get a rate of fire of 4/round, which goes up at 7th and 13th level (if you ever reach that). You can also throw one more with your offhand, at a -2 penalty (TWF penalties are -2/-4, reduced by your reaction adjustment). It gets even better if you have a str bonus to damage. Mmmm, 2nd ed. darts.

Heh. Much like the 3e Monk/Throwing Star thing that hole was eventually somewhat officially closed in Player's Option: Combat and Tactics. There was a joke about it in Baldur's Gate, as I recall.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-28, 10:58 PM
If you're specialized in darts, you actually get a rate of fire of 4/round,
Ooh! Where does it say that?


which goes up at 7th and 13th level (if you ever reach that). You can also throw one more with your offhand, at a -2 penalty (TWF penalties are -2/-4, reduced by your reaction adjustment). It gets even better if you have a str bonus to damage. Mmmm, 2nd ed. darts.
I have a 15 STR, and, being a fighter/mage, plan to keep Strength up a lot of the time eventually for an extra 1d8, often taking me into 18/something.

JadedDM
2007-10-28, 11:09 PM
It's in the Proficiencies chapter...although I would not allow a character to dual-wield thrown weapons myself. Although technically there is no rule that says you can't.


I have a 15 STR, and, being a fighter/mage, plan to keep Strength up a lot of the time eventually for an extra 1d8, often taking me into 18/something.

Wha...what? "Keep strength up"?

Reel On, Love
2007-10-28, 11:27 PM
I think throwing two knives at once, for example, is no less reasonable than wielding two weapons offensively.

As for keeping Strength up--"Strength" is a spell. It adds 1d8 to a Warrior's strengths (and different values for the other class types). Hours/level, or maybe it was 2 hours + hour/level.

Zincorium
2007-10-28, 11:45 PM
Wha...what? "Keep strength up"?

I would assume he means "keep casting the strength spell so that it remains active". But that is just an assumption.

JadedDM
2007-10-28, 11:57 PM
Oh, oh, ohhhhh. You meant the spell Strength. Okay. That makes more sense then. (Heck of a CT, that spell, though.)

Lemur
2007-10-28, 11:59 PM
Ooh! Where does it say that?

Ch. 5: Proficiencies, on Table 35: Specialist Attacks per round. No page number available :P (Edit: In the PHB, just for clarification)


I can't think of anything at the moment that expressly indicates you can dual wield thrown weapons, but there isn't anything that says you can't. You certainly can in 3rd edition, at least, and I know I was in a 2nd ed. campaign once with a gnome dual wielding throwing daggers. Of course, people didn't worry about things like the "rules as written" or other crazy talk quite as much back then :smallwink:

Reel On, Love
2007-10-29, 12:15 AM
Oh, oh, ohhhhh. You meant the spell Strength. Okay. That makes more sense then. (Heck of a CT, that spell, though.)

What's a "CT"?

Lemur, thanks for the table reference.

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 12:34 AM
Casting Time. Usually it's a simple number that's added to one's initiative roll, but sometimes it will be a very specific time like "1 round" which means it takes a whole round to cast the spell.

Strength, however, has a CT of 1 turn (which means 10 rounds). It takes 10 minutes to cast, making it useless in mid-battle. So it's better to cast it before the fight even starts, when you can. This only works if you know a fight is coming, or if you just keep casting it during downtimes (it lasts one hour per level).

Reel On, Love
2007-10-29, 12:51 AM
Casting Time. Usually it's a simple number that's added to one's initiative roll, but sometimes it will be a very specific time like "1 round" which means it takes a whole round to cast the spell.

Strength, however, has a CT of 1 turn (which means 10 rounds). It takes 10 minutes to cast, making it useless in mid-battle. So it's better to cast it before the fight even starts, when you can. This only works if you know a fight is coming, or if you just keep casting it during downtimes (it lasts one hour per level).

Oh, it stands for Casting Time.

Obviously I'm not going to be casting Strength during combat. It's a long-duration buff, I'll cast it before.

Irreverent Fool
2007-10-29, 04:03 AM
Yeah, but...good luck finding all of those. One cannot simply walk into a magic store and purchase them in 2E, like they can in 3E (unless the DM went out of his way to create a magic pricing system).

Yeah because for some reason people didn't have shops of powerful magic items in villages and towns where people might try and steal them. Funny, huh?

I miss 2e...

Matthew
2007-10-29, 06:37 AM
I am not really that clear on why you are looking for the most broken 2e combination you can find. The multiple Dart Throwing Fighter is generally considered an abuse of the rules, which is why the exploit was shut down (in 1e, the Weapon versus Armour Tables did the same). Unless that is the sort of 2e campaign your DM likes to run, you should probably find out what he thinks about such things.

Thane of Fife
2007-10-29, 08:32 AM
I can't think of anything at the moment that expressly indicates you can dual wield thrown weapons, but there isn't anything that says you can't.

Any weapon wielded in your off-hand must be smaller than the one in your main hand. That's where it says that you can't use darts in both hands.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-10-29, 08:48 AM
Yeah because for some reason people didn't have shops of powerful magic items in villages and towns where people might try and steal them. Funny, huh?

I miss 2e...

Because human stupidity is somehow the system's fault?

Matthew
2007-10-29, 09:08 AM
Any weapon wielded in your off-hand must be smaller than the one in your main hand. That's where it says that you can't use darts in both hands.

Heh, except for Daggers, which can be used irrespective of size. I guess, you could make 4 Dart Attacks and 1 Off Hand Dagger Atack.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-29, 02:13 PM
I am not really that clear on why you are looking for the most broken 2e combination you can find. The multiple Dart Throwing Fighter is generally considered an abuse of the rules, which is why the exploit was shut down (in 1e, the Weapon versus Armour Tables did the same). Unless that is the sort of 2e campaign your DM likes to run, you should probably find out what he thinks about such things.

I thought the most broken 2e combination I can find involved a Bladesinger, or the make-your-own-class thing in... Skills and Powers, was it?

I just snagged darts because of their Rate Of Fire; the DM approved them. I don't know that an extra attack per round (don't bows have an ROF of 2?) will be gamebreaking, especially given that the game will have lots of large ecounters, with lots of followers and lots of enemies--illusions used to cause morale checks, which this DM loves, are going to be the most effective thing around. So I'm not too worried about darts destroying the game, and neither is the DM.

Matthew
2007-10-29, 02:59 PM
The Blade Singing Fighting Style can be pretty broken, and Class building has to be carefully regulated, but the Double Specialised/Strength 18 Dart Throwing Fighter is right up there with them, which is why it got toned down in the Player's Option supplements.

Bows do indeed have two shots per Round and you can get some pretty serious damage out of them (especially with the Magic Arrow/Bow stacking bonus), but their Core ROF doesn't go up with Specialisation, unlike Darts, which eventually are shot at 6 per Round, and they cost twice as much to specialise with. Not to mention, the Dart Specialist can use a Shield or Off Hand Attack.

Of course, if your DM is using Player's Option: Combat and Tactics, it's a whole 'nother ball game, as Bow shooting rates increase with Specialisation (much as they did in 1e Unearthed Arcana, where they are also often considered broken).


Level 1 Elf Fighter
THAC0 20
Strength: 18 (+1 AB, +2 DB), Dexterity 18 (+2 AB),
Race: +1 AB with Swords
Proficiencies: Double Specialisation (Long Sword) [3 Slots]
Bow Attacks: 1.5 per Round, THAC0 15, Damage 1D8+5 (Av 9.5)

Level 1 Elf Fighter
THAC0 20
Strength: 18 (+1 AB, +2 DB), Dexterity 18 (+2 AB),
Race: +1 AB with Bows
Proficiencies: Double Specialisation (Long Bow) [4 Slots]
Bow Attacks: 2 per Round, THAC0 13, Damage 1D8+5 (Av 9.5)

Level 1 Elf Fighter
THAC0 20
Strength: 18 (+1 AB, +2 DB), Dexterity 18 (+2 AB),
Proficiencies: Double Specialisation (Darts) [3 Slots]
Dart Attacks: 4 per Round, THAC0 14, Damage 1D3+5 (Av. 6.5)

The Elf with a Long Bow will have to observe the special rules for Strength adjusted Bows, but I think the power increment is pretty much self evident. As I say, though, Bows are themselves considered powerful weapons in AD&D, which is why they're so damn expensive (again, unlike Darts).

Point is, the disparity is clear even without 'Double Specialisation', the Dart Throwing Fighter was a 'Core' problem (made worse by Fighters with Strength 18/XX). It's not all bad news, though; there are only so many Darts a Character can carry, after all.


That said, AD&D is very much open to various power levels. If this is the sort of thing that the DM expects and wants to see in his game, there really is no problem, which is what I was wondering about.

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 03:56 PM
Are Dart fighters really that broken? I've never had a player make one before (the only characters who have ever used darts were mages or thieves in my game). I've never even heard of such a concept before.

Matthew
2007-10-29, 04:03 PM
Depends on the game and the exact rules in play, but a 'Core' Fighter with Strength 18/00 and Specialisation gets better use out of Darts than he does a Long Bow:

4 Attacks per Round at 1D3+8 Damage versus 2 Attacks per Round at 1D8+8 Damage.

The more Damage Bonuses you stack, the more insignificant becomes the Base Damage disparity and the more important becomes the Number of Attacks per Round. The one saving grace of the Bow is that Arrow and Bow Magic Bonuses stack, but that's an advantage that is going to vary from game to game. If you happen to be using the Shield Proficiency/Specialisation Rules, the Dart Throwing Fighter Specialist might still seem more attractive regardless.

Basically, it's an exploit, but it's up to individual DMs to rule on it if and when it comes up and, as with all Ranged Weapons, there are situational limits on its effectiveness.

[Edit]
It is also worth mentioning that Bows have a significantly greater range than Darts, but I'm thinking chiefly of the Dungeon environment above.

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 06:28 PM
I guess I'm just surprised, that if it's such a big exploit, that none of my players have yet to try and use it (as I've never even heard of it). Traditionally, when a player gets an 18 in STR in my game, they give their character the biggest, slowest, most damaging weapon (like a great axe or great sword).

Now I'm tempted to create an NPC villain with that build just to see how well it works.

Matthew
2007-10-29, 07:41 PM
Heh, heh. Like many abuses, it only works under limited conditions and requires the expenditure of a great deal of resources. However, a quick cheesy build would be something like:


Level Seven Human Fighter
Attributes:
Weapon Proficiencies: Weapon Mastery (Darts) [3 Slots], Shield Proficiency (Body Shield) [1 Slot], Style Specialisation (Missile Weapons) [1 Slot], Weapon Mastery (Long Sword) [3 Slots], Style Specialisation (Weapon and Shield) [1 Slot]*
Equipment: Plate Mail Armour, Body Shield, Long Sword, Quiver, Darts,

Attacks:
Darts: 5 Attacks per Round, THAC0 11, Damage 1D3+3 [before Strength, Dexterity and Magic]
Long Sword: 2 Attacks per Round, THAC0 11, Damage 1D8+3 [before Strength and Magic]

Defences:
Plate Mail Armour (AC 3)
Body Shield (AC 2) + Shield Proficiency (AC -1) + Shield Specialisation (AC -2) [before Dexterity and Magic]

Tactics:
The Dart Throwing Fighter Specialist appears at first sight to be a typical plate clad fighter leading the usual assortment of minions, until he unexpectedly unleashes a hail of Darts against the party, softening them up until he engages at close quarters.

Scaling the Encounter
The encounter would be very similar as a Level 5 Fighter, though he would only be Specialised in the Long Sword and have 4 and 1.5 Attacks respectively, but any lower than that and Weapon Mastery is no longer available.

* Total: 9 Slots (minimum Intelligence 12)

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 08:17 PM
Weapon Mastery? Shield Specialization?

I've not familiar with these rules. They must be found in some splatbook that I don't possess. That must be why nobody in my group has tried to exploit that yet.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-29, 08:19 PM
Intelligence gives you bonus *weapon proficiency* slots? SRSLY? Where's it say that?

I don't have an 18 strength, much less an 18/00, and in my game encounters will by and large be outdoors and start at bow range--bows will get a number of shots before

I'm also not going to be at a level at which I have 6 attacks, and carrying a shield seems unwise given that I'm a Fighter/Mage. Plus, one other character got something like a hundred thousand gold (that he's mostly going to be ) due to the DM's character generation method (one in ten thousand chance, something like that); a couple are 19-strength half-orcs (one of whom has, like, an 18 and two 16s on top of that), someone inherited a +2 composite shortbow with some sort of fire magic... people generally rolled well on the character creation stuff. I expect my fighter/mage dart-thrower to be very good, but hardly gamebreaking.

greenknight
2007-10-29, 08:42 PM
Intelligence gives you bonus *weapon proficiency* slots? SRSLY? Where's it say that?

Complete Fighter's Handbook, under "Intelligence and Proficiencies". Player's Options: Combat & Tactics says something similar, but restricts it to Fighters, Paladins and Rangers.

Matthew
2007-10-29, 08:44 PM
Weapon Mastery? Shield Specialization?

I've not familiar with these rules. They must be found in some splatbook that I don't possess. That must be why nobody in my group has tried to exploit that yet.

Heh, heh. It's all Skills and Powers stuff; the former was ripped from 1e Unearthed Arcana, but the latter was wholly the invention of Skills and Powers. Of course, you don't need either to make the build work, that's just icing on the Multiple Attack cake.


Intelligence gives you bonus *weapon proficiency* slots? SRSLY? Where's it say that?

Intelligence grants Bonus Languages when you aren't using the Non Weapon Proficiency Rules. When you are using the Non Weapon Proficiency Rules Bonus Languages become Bonus Non Weapon Proficiency Slots. You can find that in the 2e PHB in the Attribute and Proficiency sections. However, when the Complete Fighter's Handbook was released (same year as the 2e PHB), a bunch of new options became available (Style Specialisations, Weapon Proficiency Groups, etc...) and Warriors (and Multi Class Warriors) were allowed to use their Bonus Non Weapon Proficiencies as Bonus Weapon Proficiencies. It's probably one of the most commonly used 2e Optional Rules (Hell, the Complete Fighter's Handbook is probably the most commonly used 2e supplement)


I don't have an 18 strength, much less an 18/00, and in my game encounters will by and large be outdoors and start at bow range--bows will get a number of shots before

Sure, I was just showing how this style gets exploited. Encounter Range is going to be a severe limitation, but as an Elf you should be making use of your increased Chance to Surprise, in which case you should be able to get within range. Still, as I say, it depends how the game is run.


I'm also not going to be at a level at which I have 6 attacks, and carrying a shield seems unwise given that I'm a Fighter/Mage.

Heh, that's a can of worms right there. Be sure to ask your DM how many hands free you need to Cast Spells. If it's one, you should be okay with a Shield, but it makes just as much sense to use an Off Hand Weapon. Sure, you'll have 4 Attacks at Level 1. The above Character was a sample NPC for JadedDM.


Plus, one other character got something like a hundred thousand gold (that he's mostly going to be ) due to the DM's character generation method (one in ten thousand chance, something like that); a couple are 19-strength half-orcs (one of whom has, like, an 18 and two 16s on top of that), someone inherited a +2 composite shortbow with some sort of fire magic... people generally rolled well on the character creation stuff. I expect my fighter/mage dart-thrower to be very good, but hardly gamebreaking.

I dunno what he's going to spend 100,000 Gold Coins on, but if you kill him you could potentially get 100,000 Experience Points, depending on how the DM adjudicates Experience Points :smallwink:. Seriously, though, it sounds like a Dart Throwing Specialist isn't going to be out of place, but this also sounds like the kind of 2e game that directly led to the codification of 3e...

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 09:01 PM
Oh, okay. I always kept far away from Player's Option stuff. I also don't use much material from the Fighter's Handbook, but I was thinking of allowing it in my next campaign.

I think a real downside to being a dart specialist is having to keep track of all those darts. You'd have to restock a lot, and while they are not expensive, I imagine it would get annoying to have to keep going by the weapon shop.

Matthew
2007-10-29, 09:13 PM
Heh. The Player's Options Series has a bad reputation, but there's some interesting stuff in there as well. The Complete Fighter's Handbook is an excellent resource, but it also does a good job of exposing the limitations of D&D in general. Personally, if I were going to run 2e by the book again, I wouldn't use the Proficiency Optional Rules at all, and that goes for Weapon Proficiencies and Non Weapon Proficiencies; I'm fairly sure that I wouldn't use Weapon Specialisation either.

Refilling Dart Quivers would no doubt be a pain, but I suppose a Character could recover at least some of them after a combat.

SpiderKoopa
2007-10-29, 09:45 PM
*snip*...
double specialization (house rule--comes after normal specialization, bringing it up to +3/+3) in darts, which have a rate-of-fire of 3/round...*snip*

Fun fact, it's not a house rule. It's in combat and tactics I believe and it's called mastery. :smallbiggrin:
After that comes high mastery (basically you get to tack on improved critical and your weapon speed goes down by one) and then grand mastery which tacks on you using the next highest die for damage (instead of a d8 for a longsword, you use a d10, etc), and get an extra half atk/rnd. Of course high and grandmastery require someone to train you. And an appropriate lv of 7 for high and 9 for grand.
At least that's how I remember it going down.

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 09:56 PM
Allowing a fighter/mage to specialize at all IS a house rule, however.

Matthew
2007-10-29, 09:57 PM
As noted above, it's more likely that he adapted it from the 1e Unearthed Arcana, where it's actually called Double Specialisation. 2e Weapon Mastery is something of an amalgamation of that and the Basic Dungeons & Dragons Weapon Mastery Rules, if I recall correctly.


Allowing a fighter/mage to specialize at all IS a house rule, however.

Heh, nope that's Skills and Powers again...

SpiderKoopa
2007-10-29, 10:09 PM
Ah, I see. I started out on 2E, and the only basic d&d book I have is from the starter set my uncle had back when he was in college? Something like that. Well, he handed it down to me. Needless to say, I got some decent bragging rights when I brought the paper-back basic d&d book to a session.
All this talking about ad&d is making me miss my first character. Who happened to have grandmastery in longswords.
Blace, how fun you were to role-play.:smallsmile:

JadedDM
2007-10-29, 10:14 PM
Heh, nope that's Skills and Powers again...

Aww, geez.

Well, for the record, I consider Player's Option to be 2.5E, so it's technically not 2E in my mind. :smalltongue:

Matthew
2007-10-29, 10:28 PM
Aww, geez.

Well, for the record, I consider Player's Option to be 2.5E, so it's technically not 2E in my mind. :smalltongue:

I can certainly sympathise with that.

hamlet
2007-10-30, 08:22 AM
I can certainly sympathise with that.

For the record, the Player's Options books enjoy a bad reputation for a basic reason: they were pretty bad in a lot of ways. It reminds me of the bastard child of GURPS and D&D, emphasizing the worst qualities of both and smothering the best parts of both.

Matthew
2007-10-30, 08:34 AM
Honestly, they weren't as bad as people make out. The reason they were hated seems to be more to do with the departure from the Archtype/Class Based format of AD&D into a Points Based System or, to put it another way, by seeking to compete with newer Skill/Point based RPGs, they undermined the qualities that differentiated AD&D from its competitors.

There were bad ideas in those books, but there are bad ideas in just about every rules product, not everything appeals to everyone. Used as intended, which is to say as a collection of Optional Rules, the Player's Option Series fulfils its intended role.

Perhaps more tellingly, a great deal of the Player's Option content ended up in 3e as core.

hamlet
2007-10-30, 10:27 AM
Honestly, they weren't as bad as people make out. The reason they were hated seems to be more to do with the departure from the Archtype/Class Based format of AD&D into a Points Based System or, to put it another way, by seeking to compete with newer Skill/Point based RPGs, they undermined the qualities that differentiated AD&D from its competitors.

There were bad ideas in those books, but there are bad ideas in just about every rules product, not everything appeals to everyone. Used as intended, which is to say as a collection of Optional Rules, the Player's Option Series fulfils its intended role.

Perhaps more tellingly, a great deal of the Player's Option content ended up in 3e as core.

I agree. There's some stuff in there that is really worth the cover price. One of my favorites has always been the "Scion Rules" or whatever they're called. Some of the expanded combat rules were interesting for a lark.

However, I think that the options presented in the book that seemed to be a hybridization of a point based and class based system were total garbage. I think the book was called Players' Options, but I might be wrong. That book has earned a dark place in my library.

Just never saw any real use for them in my game since almost every interesting new rule in there was one I'd incorporated already or had a stop gap in place beforehand. It also seemed to be the hard beginning of the "mechanics = character/flavor" theme that is so prevalent nowadays.

No sir, I don't like it.

Matthew
2007-10-30, 12:12 PM
There were three books in the 'Player's Option' Series:

Skills and Powers (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd1/sp.htm)
Spells and Magic (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd1/sm.htm)
Combat and Tactics (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd1/ct.htm)

Each one contained at least something to recommend it, but you are probably thinking of Skills and Powers. That book introduced the concept of 'Character Points', which allowed the Player and Dungeon Master to build variant Classes and some of which was poorly thought out.

The worst bits were: 'Sub Attributes' and 'Traits and Disadvantages'. They were essentially just methods of leveraging as much mechanical advantage out of a Character as possible.
The best bits were probably: The rules for building variant Sub Races and Sub Classes (but with the caveat that DM supervision was required) and the redone Proficiency System. Character Points worked really well with the Proficiency System as a parallel Character advancement method.

For the veteran player with House Rules already in place, you're right that a lot of this material was redundant. For the new or returning player, though, which is the market the relaunch was aimed at, these books contained and made available many of the ideas that veteran players were already using.

The problem was the same one that always plagued 2e, though, too many options for the new or casual Player and not enough 'hard rulings' for the fledgling or casual Dungeon Master.

hamlet
2007-10-30, 01:30 PM
Yes, they were aimed at a different audience than me. Something I realize is the case in just about EVERY RPG written since 1990. Problem was that, though there were things in them that were good, there was also so much that was wrong, in fact, most of the page count really.

I'm one of those guys that doesn't want point based systems in his class based game. If I want point based, I'll take GURPS or Hero off the shelf.

I'm also a great believer in CORE ONLY games, especially when it comes to 2nd edition (barring the occasional house rule).

Matthew
2007-10-30, 02:30 PM
Heh, don't get me wrong. If I were going to run a by the book 2e game now, I wouldn't be inclined to use much in the way of Optional Rules, not even from the Core Books (that includes Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Druids, Proficiencies, Critical Hits, Weapon Speeds, etc...). As ideas books, though, the Player's Option Series and others were interesting to me.

As it stands I'm comfortable with my House Ruled AD&D Game, which draws on all editions of D&D to some extent and looks a lot like Castles & Crusades.