Frenzy House Rule Feedback

[dmhelp]

When I've tried to tinker with Frenzy the feedback is all over the place. Some people say there should be no side effect to Frenzy otherwise it doesn't compare to Zealot Divine Fury. Others say without exhaustion it is a huge power grab.

What about the following changes:
1. At level 3 may choose between Frenzy (with one use per short rest not causing exhaustion) and variant Frenzy.

2. variant Frenzy - While raging your first successful melee weapon attack per turn does an additional 1d6 + half Barbarian level damage.

So you have the option of reduced exhaustion occurance vs Zealot equity.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, if I'm playing a Berserker, it's probably because I want to have some penalty for going on a frenzy. It's kinda like the whole point of the sub-class that you overexert yourself.

I don't think exhaustion is a bad penalty, but I'd allow berserkers to recover from exhaustion in general (ie: not only the exhaustion from frenzy) with a Short Rest rather than a Long one.

Also, definitely make Frenzy work from the get go instead of having a stupid one round delay.

Your variant frenzy is basically a copy-paste of the Zealot ability. Super boring.

[pragma]

The frenzy fix that I like is as follows:

"While raging you may make a bonus action attack with advantage any time that you make a Reckless Attack."

I also ban PAM, so getting a reliable bonus action attack is a big win for barbarians.

[Tanarii]

"While raging you may make a bonus action attack with advantage any time that you make a Reckless Attack."
You mean without advantage? Otherwise it's basically an always on ability.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Honestly, if I'm playing a Berserker, it's probably because I want to have some penalty for going on a frenzy. It's kinda like the whole point of the sub-class that you overexert yourself.

I don't think exhaustion is a bad penalty, but I'd allow berserkers to recover from exhaustion in general (ie: not only the exhaustion from frenzy) with a Short Rest rather than a Long one.

Also, definitely make Frenzy work from the get go instead of having a stupid one round delay.

Your variant frenzy is basically a copy-paste of the Zealot ability. Super boring.

The recovery on a short rest is exactly what our group was thinking of, though nobody has played it yet to see how it works.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

When I've tried to tinker with Frenzy the feedback is all over the place. Some people say there should be no side effect to Frenzy otherwise it doesn't compare to Zealot Divine Fury. Others say without exhaustion it is a huge power grab.

What about the following changes:
1. At level 3 may choose between Frenzy (with one use per short rest not causing exhaustion) and variant Frenzy.

2. variant Frenzy - While raging your first successful melee weapon attack per turn does an additional 1d6 + half Barbarian level damage.

So you have the option of reduced exhaustion occurance vs Zealot equity.

I would just change frenzy to a bonus action attack dealing 1d4 base damage (1d4 + Str) and call it a day.

It means that a barbarian, who is specifically focusing on damage, doesn't have to take an offensive feat to boost damage.

The barbarian can't do this at-will, yet I guess, so it doesn't happen as much as if they took PAM, so PAM is actually still a useful pick for when the Barbarian isn't raging (plus the other features of the feat).

Don't deal with exhaustion, it's a bad mechanic with the way it's implemented in the game.

[chainer1216]

I would just change frenzy to a bonus action attack dealing 1d4 base damage (1d4 + Str) and call it a day.

It means that a barbarian, who is specifically focusing on damage, doesn't have to take an offensive feat to boost damage.


But...that's just a worse version of Zealot.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

But...that's just a worse version of Zealot.

Not in conjunction with Intimidating Presence.

Zealot gets a bonus to damage equal d6 + 1/2 level (up to ~ 13) on their first hit. They don't gain a bonus hit unless they take a feat. That feat, PAM, requires you to use your action to make an attack.

What the Frenzy Barbarian can do is use their action for other things like grappling, shoving, or using Intimidating Presence... But still gain the bonus action to attack.

Frenzy Barbarians aren't attack, attack, attack, they have one of the best non-magical features in the game.

Berserkers are Striker/Controller whereas Zealots are Striker/Leader. Because Berserkers affect the enemy in multiple ways their damage will be a bit lower.

Also, mindless rage is straight up immunity to two really bad effects on the barbarian during a rage while the Zealot gets a chance to fail again. Heck, the Berserker can remove those effects by entering rage.

Gotta take the whole picture in, you know.

Also, the Berserker eventually gets Retaliation which is, hilariously fun even if it doesn't seem like it.


Edit

A little bit of damage isn't going to have rt the barbarian, the utility with a good damage feature goes wonders when this martial has non-direct damage features.

Also, Zealot is a tad broken, so it's fine if you think the berserker isn't as strong... Zealot is the power creep after all.

[Dienekes]

I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim Intimidating Presence is a positive for the Berserker before. I know my own experience my player used it like twice before realizing the cost of two attacks and however many ASIs are needed to make your Charisma bonus competitive was too high and he stopped using it completely.

I’m also not entirely certain if it’s really power creep. Sure it’s wildly considered better than Berserker but most everything is. Bear Totem Warrior remains the standard other subclasses are judged by and Ancestral Guardian is about even with them I think.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would have rather have a reason to make Exhaustion something you'd look forward to.

"You gain damage reduction to all of your incoming damage, and a bonus to your Attack and Damage rolls, equal to the amount of Exhaustion you have". This would apply even while not raging.

More damage is something the core Barbarian has, other Barbarian subclasses have, and the Berserker Barbarian already has.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim Intimidating Presence is a positive for the Berserker before. I know my own experience my player used it like twice before realizing the cost of two attacks and however many ASIs are needed to make your Charisma bonus competitive was too high and he stopped using it completely.

I’m also not entirely certain if it’s really power creep. Sure it’s wildly considered better than Berserker but most everything is. Bear Totem Warrior remains the standard other subclasses are judged by and Ancestral Guardian is about even with them I think.


Frighten gives you two main things

A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.

The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

IP allows you to keep the ability up unless the target runs away (barbarians are rather fast) or you don't use your action to continue the effect.

You can keep someone frightened indefinitely (persistent rage) as long as you keep up with them, you can run them to death.

But more practically it works in a couple ways...

While raging...

* Grab someone (you have advantage), smack them with your extra attack, smack them with your bonus action attack.
* IP them
* Use action to keep them frightened (they have disadvantage on ability checks, you have advantage)
* Bonus action to smack them.


Or

Corner a creature and keep them there. They can't move closer to you after all. You can focus on other creatures

What's fun is that IP doesn't rely on Rage.

So even out of rage, you can control enemies. This is at-will, infinite duration (potentially), and most enemies have bad saves.

Also, for some roleplaying fun, you could pretend to be a wizard casting a spell (you have cloaks on to hide your sweet bod and muscles) so that you get enemies to target you first... When they get in close (and away from your squishy friends) it's rage time.


Nothing beats a good ability that can also help you do roleplaying in a weird way.

[heavyfuel]

I would have rather have a reason to make Exhaustion something you'd look forward to.

"You gain damage reduction to all of your incoming damage, and a bonus to your Attack and Damage rolls, equal to the amount of Exhaustion you have". This would apply even while not raging.

More damage is something the core Barbarian has, other Barbarian subclasses have, and the Berserker Barbarian already has.

It better be a much larger bonus if you expect anyone to look forward to exhaustion.

At 2 levels of Exhaustion, you become super kitable, at 3 levels, you're basically a useless combatant and extremely vulnerable to spells and other effects. Even at 1 level you become easier to control through grapple, disarm, and shove.

Even something like (exhaustion level)^2 damage reduction, attack and damage bonus, would probably not make it worth while.

[N810]

I played a berserker barbarian all the way to level 20,

The house rule we used was:
remove all levels of exhaustion on a long rest.

This seemed like a decent fix.

Ps. I too found "Intimidating Presence" fairly useless.

I talked to my DM and he swapped it out for an ability that let me charge as a bonus action and do D6 damage to an enemy I rammed.

this was a lot more useful and fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

It better be a much larger bonus if you expect anyone to look forward to exhaustion.

At 2 levels of Exhaustion, you become super kitable, at 3 levels, you're basically a useless combatant and extremely vulnerable to spells and other effects. Even at 1 level you become easier to control through grapple, disarm, and shove.

Even something like (exhaustion level)^2 damage reduction, attack and damage bonus, would probably not make it worth while.

It's worth noting that the Champion's subclass mechanic, +5% crit chance, is worth less than a +1 bonus to hit.

Additionally, while you are easier to control in terms of Athletics checks, you're nullifying that penalty with your Rage Advantage, you have a priority on Strength, and you likely have Athletics as one of your skills.

And kiting is a concern, but Barbarians also get additional movement speed, and most combat is "Stand there until one of you dies". You don't play a Barbarian if you were planning on doing anything different.

But maybe you're right, and it doesn't scale quite enough to be worthwhile.

[Tanarii]

I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim Intimidating Presence is a positive for the Berserker before. I know my own experience my player used it like twice before realizing the cost of two attacks and however many ASIs are needed to make your Charisma bonus competitive was too high and he stopped using it completely.

The ability to lock a single opponent down while your ranged allies wail on it, while it attacks you at disadvantage and you resist all its attacks and get one attack per round, is situational but nice to have in your back pocket. The biggest problem is that it depends on Cha, so landing it in the first place can be a challenge. On the flip side, once you stick it, there's no save every round to get out of it,

The situation in which this is useful is solos or pairs and your allies are all behind you, and it lets you tank like a mofo. A situation where it's not useful is when you're the primary damage for the party and they can't afford to lose a huge chunk of their DPS to control.

[heavyfuel]

It's worth noting that the Champion's subclass mechanic, +5% crit chance, is worth less than a +1 bonus to hit

Y'know, that's why I hate the Champion. Someone thought a ~3% increase in damage was good enough to be a defining archetype feature and people just went on with it. Bad design, bad class.

[Man_Over_Game]

Y'know, that's why I hate the Champion. Someone thought a ~3% increase in damage was good enough to be a defining archetype feature and people just went on with it. Bad design, bad class.

Kind of off topic, but I like to turn it into a Dex/Str hybrid.

"When making a roll that uses your Strength or Dexterity modifier, it gains a bonus equal to which of those two is lower (minimum of +1)" When they'd otherwise get their crit range doubled, the bonus changes to use your Dex modifier as a bonus to Strength rolls, and vice-versa (minimum of +2), which means your Strength and Dex rolls will almost always have the same exact bonus.

I've always saw Champion's design goal as being the simplest form of DnD. So to work off of that, I'd rather see them just be really good at being really simple and boring. Best part is, it scales the most off of ASIs, so you don't end up with things like them taking Polearm Master just for the sake of extra damage. That's what an ASI should be for.

[GlenSmash!]

I would have rather have a reason to make Exhaustion something you'd look forward to.

"You gain damage reduction to all of your incoming damage, and a bonus to your Attack and Damage rolls, equal to the amount of Exhaustion you have". This would apply even while not raging.

More damage is something the core Barbarian has, other Barbarian subclasses have, and the Berserker Barbarian already has.

I like this idea a lot. A different bonus for each level of exhaustion could be really interesting if a bit tedious to come up with (and maybe too tedious in play). Like if the Berserker becomes more dangerous the more exhausted they get.

Just spitballing here:

At exhaustion level 1 you would have disadvantage on ability checks, but gain expertise in Intimidation. At 2 you could have speed halved but gain a climb and swim speed. At 3 you'd get disadvantage on attacks and saves, but double bonus damage from rage. At 4 half maximum hitpoints, but gain damage reduction. at 5 speed is reduced to 0 but every creature within 5 ft of you takes X damage at the start of your turn.

Or more interesting stuff than that.

[heavyfuel]

I like this idea a lot. A different bonus for each level of exhaustion could be really interesting if a bit tedious to come up with (and maybe too tedious in play). Like if the Berserker becomes more dangerous the more exhausted they get.

Just spitballing here:

At exhaustion level 1 you would have disadvantage on ability checks, but gain expertise in Intimidation. At 2 you could have speed halved but gain a climb and swim speed. At 3 you'd get disadvantage on attacks and saves, but double bonus damage from rage. At 4 half maximum hitpoints, but gain damage reduction. at 5 speed is reduced to 0 but every creature within 5 ft of you takes X damage at the start of your turn.

Or more interesting stuff than that.

And at exhaustion level 6 you get to reroll a decent character!

[GlenSmash!]

And at exhaustion level 6 you get to reroll a decent character!

*chuckle* sure.

Anyway I don't mind playing a character with a lot of risk vs reward. That's the point of Reckless Attack in the first place. My problem with the Berserker as is is that the reward is so minor compared to the cost.

[heavyfuel]

My problem with the Berserker as is is that the reward is so minor compared to the cost.

This is indeed true. A feat (PAM) basically does what the Berserker does and does it better due to always being on, not having the activation delay, granting extra benefits, and not giving you exhaustion.

AFAIK, no other lv 3 feature is so easily replaced by a feat.

Reducing the cost (by making them recover more easily from exhaustion, for example) or dramatically increasing the reward is the way to go.

[heavyfuel]

Just had this idea. What do you guys think?


Frenzy

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. While in a frenzy you cannot be affect by any conditions. The conditions don't end, they simply don't affect you. Additionally, any damage you receive is delayed until the frenzy ends, at which point you suffer it in full.

You can end the frenzy at any point (even before the rage ends) and when it does, you suffer one level of exhaustion for every round you spent in frenzy.


You become an unstoppable juggernaut for a a couple rounds, but suffer a massive penalty when it ends

[Man_Over_Game]

Just had this idea. What do you guys think?


Frenzy

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. While in a frenzy you cannot be affect by any conditions. The conditions don't end, they simply don't affect you. Additionally, any damage you receive is delayed until the frenzy ends, at which point you suffer it in full.

You can end the frenzy at any point (even before the rage ends) and when it does, you suffer one level of exhaustion for every round you spent in frenzy.


You become an unstoppable juggernaut for a a couple rounds, but suffer a massive penalty when it ends

Nah. You don't want your subclass feature to be circumstantial. You don't want your unique mechanic to be occasionally valuable. Taking a note from Wizards, their weakest magic typing (Divination) also happens to have one of the most powerful subclass features for the class.

In this case, the only times you'd want to Frenzy are:


When you're already near death (as losing HP doesn't impact your effectiveness until it's 0)
When the amount of damage you've received is NOT enough to kill you after the Rage ends (as overdamage can instantly kill you)
When conditions are expected (problematic, as there are already features that shed off conditions like Zealot or Fighter features)
When the extra attack is worth more than Exhaustion 3+ (as you're guaranteed to have Exhaustion 2 without ever using the BA attack).


It's a very small window where I'd want to use Frenzy, and it'd mostly be in a circumstance where I was probably going to die without it, and I'd probably be better off with Zealot for that specific kind of playstyle.

I think the important thing to focus on is that Exhaustion isn't bad in limited doses, and is entirely crippling if you ever get more than 2. It's that second part that makes the original not work, since players are going to want to Frenzy often, since that's their only subclass feature.

If you can either:


Make Exhaustion be difficult to stack past 1-2, even with Frenzy
Make Exhaustion somehow be worthwhile to stack in certain circumstances, so that it's not nearly as much of a punishment for using your feature regularly WHILE having benefits that occur even if not Frenzying (which was my solution)
You can't Frenzy constantly even with this, as 2 uses per day will kill you in 5 days, so you need something in place that occurs during days you don't want to Frenzy at the risk of killing yourself.
I think the Berserker's core mechanics could be salvageable, but not without.

Consider for a moment that players still pick Champion despite the weak feature, because it's always available on every turn and every action, yet I've never even heard of a Berserker player that didn't regret their decision. Think about that.

Power matters less than consistency. Maybe not in terms of balance, but player fun.

[N810]

Just had this idea. What do you guys think?


Frenzy

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. While in a frenzy you cannot be affect by any conditions. The conditions don't end, they simply don't affect you. Additionally, any damage you receive is delayed until the frenzy ends, at which point you suffer it in full.

You can end the frenzy at any point (even before the rage ends) and when it does, you suffer one level of exhaustion for every round you spent in frenzy.


You become an unstoppable juggernaut for a a couple rounds, but suffer a massive penalty when it ends

As fun as that seems on paper, I would it would quickly get you killed more often than not. :belkar:

[Dienekes]

Just had this idea. What do you guys think?


Frenzy

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. While in a frenzy you cannot be affect by any conditions. The conditions don't end, they simply don't affect you. Additionally, any damage you receive is delayed until the frenzy ends, at which point you suffer it in full.

You can end the frenzy at any point (even before the rage ends) and when it does, you suffer one level of exhaustion for every round you spent in frenzy.


You become an unstoppable juggernaut for a a couple rounds, but suffer a massive penalty when it ends

Personally, I think this would be an amazing 10th or 14th level ability that modifies your Frenzy, but it's not enough for a basic ability for the class.

I kinda just think that Berserker barbarian is meant for new players who just want to deal damage. Add an additional d6 on weapon attacks, the die increases at 6th, 10th, and 14th level and call it a day. If it's too strong for two-weapon wielders make it heavy weapon or main-hand only.

It's a bit weaker than Zealot until you get a second attack, then stays a few points ahead until level 20, even more if you get Opportunity Attacks consistently. While the Zealot still remains useful by doing a more consistent type of damage.

It's simple, fun enough for guys who want to just roll more damage not overpowered enough to require a level of Exhaustion. Combines well with Brutal Critical for the players to smile in glee about getting to roll even more dice.

That said, I do really like the concept of raging so hard you make yourself exhausted afterwards. But I think it's too much a penalty for the basic ability you're expected to use most encounters.

[Specter]

First of all, there's nothing wrong with Frenzy as is, and don't let people tell you otherwise.

Second of all,if you do want to change something about it, you can change the ruling to 'all of these exhaustion levels are recovered with a long rest'. That way, if the Barbarian ends up using it too much, the party doesn't need to spend a long time away from action to rest.

[Man_Over_Game]

First of all, there's nothing wrong with Frenzy as is

Why's that?

Off the top of my head:


GWM is a solid option for Barbarians and even Frenzy Barbarians, but GWM already adds a Bonus Action feature, making Frenzy have less worth.
Polearm Master is also a solid option for Barbarians, but adds an extra BA attack at no additional cost.
Shield Master is a good option for Barbarians, but you'd be unable to leverage the BA shove while Frenzying, and your overall damage would be lower.
Even without Frenzy, BA attacks are available with an off-hand weapon, which would still grant bonus damage from Rage, and a single level into Fighter would give you more damage on your offhand if you were aiming for that playstyle.
Exhaustion is reduced at one stack per day, leaving you being unable to use your primary feature for the same amount. Consider that even the Arcane Archer isn't that limited (at 2 uses per day, activated upon a successful hit meaning guaranteed no waste of resources).
Frenzy doesn't have an effect on the first turn, as you need the first turn's BA to activate Rage. Any damage inflicted through Frenzy takes place from turn 2 on, and most combat encounters only last about 4 turns.
Frenzy does double your damage between levels 1-4 (if you're not otherwise using your BA), but it only adds 50% damage beyond that.


What would you say that makes Frenzy worthwhile?

[Specter]

Why's that?

Off the top of my head:


GWM is a solid option for Barbarians and even Frenzy Barbarians, but GWM already adds a Bonus Action feature, making Frenzy have less worth.
Polearm Master is also a solid option for Barbarians, but adds an extra BA attack at no additional cost.
Shield Master is a good option for Barbarians, but you'd be unable to leverage the BA shove while Frenzying, and your overall damage would be lower.
Even without Frenzy, BA attacks are available with an off-hand weapon, which would still grant bonus damage from Rage, and a single level into Fighter would give you more damage on your offhand if you were aiming for that playstyle.
Exhaustion is reduced at one stack per day, leaving you being unable to use your primary feature for the same amount. Consider that even the Arcane Archer isn't that limited (at 2 uses per day, activated upon a successful hit meaning guaranteed no waste of resources).
Frenzy doesn't have an effect on the first turn, as you need the first turn's BA to activate Rage. Any damage inflicted through Frenzy takes place from turn 2 on, and most combat encounters only last about 4 turns.
Frenzy does double your damage between levels 1-4 (if you're not otherwise using your BA), but it only adds 50% damage beyond that.


What would you say that makes Frenzy worthwhile?

- If we're considering feats, then just go in a different direction: what feats would a Frenzy Barbarian take, if he already has a bonus action attack? So instead of taking GWM or Polearm Master or something like that, they could take Tough, or Resilient, or Dungeon Delver, or whatever. So it lets you go a different way if you want to.

- I say it's worth it because I've seen it at the table a couple of times, and it was good. In theorycrafting everyone talks about two-weapon fighting, or Polearm Master, or X, but the fact is Frenzy gets a bonus action attack, and that works. Also, the high-levels features would be worthwhile on their own.

[Tanarii]

*chuckle* sure.

Anyway I don't mind playing a character with a lot of risk vs reward. That's the point of Reckless Attack in the first place. My problem with the Berserker as is is that the reward is so minor compared to the cost.
The reward isn't that minor taken alone. A BA full power attack that doesn't require the Attack action is very nice, especially for maintaining rage while doing something other than attacking. And even with the attack action it is a 50% dpr increase at level 5 plus.

Its just that the there is an OP feat to compare it to, PAM. And the comparative cost is high, since exhaustion is pretty crippling. But the value of the reward is still high.

So I think a better phrasing is the reward is very high but compared to the even higher cost its pretty universally considered to be not worth it.

Edit: and thats what makes houseruling a fix to lower the cost but leave the benefit so darn hard. Its cost needs to remain pretty high to use it, because the reward is so amazing.

My personal favorite I've seen is one free frenzy per day. That +50% dpr after the first round, at no cost, once per day. Provided the fight goes long enough, thats a very powerful feature, easily on par with bear totem or zealot.

[Dienekes]

- If we're considering feats, then just go in a different direction: what feats would a Frenzy Barbarian take, if he already has a bonus action attack? So instead of taking GWM or Polearm Master or something like that, they could take Tough, or Resilient, or Dungeon Delver, or whatever. So it lets you go a different way if you want to.

- I say it's worth it because I've seen it at the table a couple of times, and it was good. In theorycrafting everyone talks about two-weapon fighting, or Polearm Master, or X, but the fact is Frenzy gets a bonus action attack, and that works. Also, the high-levels features would be worthwhile on their own.

Out of curiosity then, what is the difference between the Berserker and a completely subclassless Fighter that can pick the feat that would give the bonus action attack, and then two more feats anyway?

At your table how did the Berserker deal with the Exhaustion? Were they given some other means of reducing Exhaustion or did they just not use their main subclass ability all that much?

[Specter]

Out of curiosity then, what is the difference between the Berserker and a completely subclassless Fighter that can pick the feat that would give the bonus action attack, and then two more feats anyway?

At your table how did the Berserker deal with the Exhaustion? Were they given some other means of reducing Exhaustion or did they just not use their main subclass ability all that much?

- In terms of Fighter bonus feats, that's kind of an unrelated discussion, but that depends on what your Barbarian subclass gets instead of those feats at level 6 and 14. Frenzy gets Mindless Rage (amazing) and Retaliation (ultra amazing). Wouldn't trade either for feats if I was playing a Barb.
And even these 'free bonus attacks' have caveats: Polearm Master uses a d4, GWM requires you to drop someone and someone to be adjacent, etc.

- He would use it on big fights, which on the adventure usually was the last of the day. If he did use two of them on the same day, then it was bad, at least until everyone reached level 10 and the cleric could use Greater Restoration.

[Man_Over_Game]

- If we're considering feats, then just go in a different direction: what feats would a Frenzy Barbarian take, if he already has a bonus action attack? So instead of taking GWM or Polearm Master or something like that, they could take Tough, or Resilient, or Dungeon Delver, or whatever. So it lets you go a different way if you want to.

I'd agree, if those feats were equals, but I see a lot more players picking the offense-oriented feats than they're taking the defensive ones. They don't pick those because they have to, they pick those because they decided they were better.

[Specter]

I'd agree, if those feats were equals, but I see a lot more players picking the offense-oriented feats than they're taking the defensive ones. They don't pick those because they have to, they pick those because they decided they were better.

I don't think it's a matter of agreement or not. The argument is "other Barbarians can get a bonus attack as well", but they have to spend a feat for that. If they're spending a feat for that, and the Frenzy guy isn't, I'm at the very least adding 2HP every level with Tough. So even if they end up adding some damage, Frenzy's getting some HP.

[Tanarii]

I don't think it's a matter of agreement or not. The argument is "other Barbarians can get a bonus attack as well", but they have to spend a feat for that. If they're spending a feat for that, and the Frenzy guy isn't, I'm at the very least adding 2HP every level with Tough. So even if they end up adding some damage, Frenzy's getting some HP.
The problem is PAM is so good and the cost of Frenzy is so high that even a Berserker Barbarian will likely want to take it. Assuming they feel they can afford it after the "mandatory" GWM.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is indeed true. A feat (PAM) basically does what the Berserker does and does it better due to always being on, not having the activation delay, granting extra benefits, and not giving you exhaustion.

AFAIK, no other lv 3 feature is so easily replaced by a feat.

Reducing the cost (by making them recover more easily from exhaustion, for example) or dramatically increasing the reward is the way to go. IMO, the thing to do is to fix exhaustion, not Frenzy.
1 level removed with lesser restoration.
all with greater restoration.
all on a long rest (three on a long rest? fiddle with it)
Roll a con check or a con save to remove on on a short rest by expending a hit die

something like that

[heavyfuel]

IMO, the thing to do is to fix exhaustion, not Frenzy.
1 level removed with lesser restoration.
all with greater restoration.
all on a long rest (three on a long rest? fiddle with it)
Roll a con check or a con save to remove on on a short rest by expending a hit die

something like that

I disagree. Exhaustion is the only long lasting condition, and it should remain as such. It's already rare and avoidable enough that you have a good chance of never having a character exhausted. If you do get exhauseted, that's on you.

My friends and I just finished a SKT campaign, and there was a single character with a single level of exhaustion once. In a campaign that spanned from lvs 1 to 11.

Exhaustion should be dangerous, and it should be tough to get rid off, exactly because it's so rare and so easy to avoid. Save for high level spells, it only happens if you allow it to happen. I see no reason to change it.

The problem is definitely with Frenzy, not Exhaustion. If you applied these changes to the Berserker only, I'd be fine with them, but they definitely shouldn't be a general rule.

[Spacehamster]

When I've tried to tinker with Frenzy the feedback is all over the place. Some people say there should be no side effect to Frenzy otherwise it doesn't compare to Zealot Divine Fury. Others say without exhaustion it is a huge power grab.

What about the following changes:
1. At level 3 may choose between Frenzy (with one use per short rest not causing exhaustion) and variant Frenzy.

2. variant Frenzy - While raging your first successful melee weapon attack per turn does an additional 1d6 + half Barbarian level damage.

So you have the option of reduced exhaustion occurance vs Zealot equity.

This is how I would do it, keep exhaustion but make the attack you get from it part of your attack action, this makes it actually useful since bonus action attacks can be gained left and right making the main feature of berserker worthless anyways.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't think it's a matter of agreement or not. The argument is "other Barbarians can get a bonus attack as well", but they have to spend a feat for that. If they're spending a feat for that, and the Frenzy guy isn't, I'm at the very least adding 2HP every level with Tough. So even if they end up adding some damage, Frenzy's getting some HP.

Consider it like this:

You can pick options A, B, or C, and 1, 2, or 3.

Everyone picks A and B, and think's option C isn't worthwhile. You pick option C.

Everyone picks 1 and 2, but think's option 3 isn't worthwhile. You pick option 3.

Why would the fact that Frenzy doesn't work with BA-attack feats be a benefit?

Where you see the option to push your resources towards something else, I see it as damage control - that is, everything is going badly, so you might as well try and make lemonade.


I disagree. Exhaustion is the only long lasting condition, and it should remain as such. It's already rare and avoidable enough that you have a good chance of never having a character exhausted. If you do get exhauseted, that's on you.

My friends and I just finished a SKT campaign, and there was a single character with a single level of exhaustion once. In a campaign that spanned from lvs 1 to 11.

Exhaustion should be dangerous, and it should be tough to get rid off, exactly because it's so rare and so easy to avoid. Save for high level spells, it only happens if you allow it to happen. I see no reason to change it.

The problem is definitely with Frenzy, not Exhaustion. If you applied these changes to the Berserker only, I'd be fine with them, but they definitely shouldn't be a general rule.

That's how I feel about it, too. No other character in the entire game runs risk of stacking too much Exhaustion, and it's borderline impossible outside of some weird campaign circumstance. If only subclass is being affected by a core mechanic in such a way, it's probably the outlier and needs to get hammered back into place.

So I'd either recommend having a reason to want to be Exhausted all the time, even while not Frenzying, or make it very difficult for Frenzy to stack Exhaustion. I'm fairly certain Berserker is probably as popular as the Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight, if you exclude noobies who picked from not knowing any better.

[Specter]

The problem is PAM is so good and the cost of Frenzy is so high that even a Berserker Barbarian will likely want to take it. Assuming they feel they can afford it after the "mandatory" GWM.

Even considering every Barbarian takes GWM, its bonus attack is mostly situational, requiring either a crit or dropping a creature. Frenzy has the cost of exhaustion, but it's on all the time, and you don't even need to use the Attack action to take it (which is underrated).


Consider it like this:

You can pick options A, B, or C, and 1, 2, or 3.

Everyone picks A and B, and think's option C isn't worthwhile. You pick option C.

Everyone picks 1 and 2, but think's option 3 isn't worthwhile. You pick option 3.

Why would the fact that Frenzy doesn't work with BA-attack feats be a benefit?

Where you see the option to push your resources towards something else, I see it as damage control - that is, everything is going badly, so you might as well try and make lemonade.

That's fine, you're thinking of min/maxing and I'm thinking of all-rounding. The problem is that minmaxers think that, if an option isn't the best for damage all the time, then the player is on the table bursting into tears, which simply doesn't happen. Frenzy is a good ability, Berserker is a good subclass, and that's even if they don't take any damage feat at all.

[Man_Over_Game]

That's fine, you're thinking of min/maxing and I'm thinking of all-rounding. The problem is that minmaxers think that, if an option isn't the best for damage all the time, then the player is on the table bursting into tears, which simply doesn't happen. Frenzy is a good ability, Berserker is a good subclass, and that's even if they don't take any damage feat at all.

Alright, but why is it good?

Is it any better than someone picking any of the other subclasses? I get one has to be on the bottom of the totem pole, but that's when there needs to be a strong defense for it to be fine, not an assumption.

That, combined with just how few people actually take it and enjoy it, I'm not seeing what I'm missing from your analysis.

[Specter]

Alright, but why is it good?

Is it any better than someone picking any of the other subclasses? I get one has to be on the bottom of the totem pole, but that's when there needs to be a strong defense for it to be fine, not an assumption.

That, combined with just how few people actually take it and enjoy it, I'm not seeing what I'm missing from your analysis.

Well, "enjoy" is a mixed word because people enjoy things for whatever reason, even a character concept that . But what is good about it:

- Frenzy gives you the highest damage output at level 3 in the one or two battles that you use it;
- One level of exhaustion tends not to be too detrimental to Barbarians, because they're not usually responsible for important ability checks (other than busting doors?);
- All subclass features are combat-related, which doesn't happen with Totem for example;
- Mindless Rage deals with Barbarian's greates weakness (fight-ending effects) without even a test involved;
- At higher levels exhaustion becomes less of a problem if someone can cast Greater Restoration;
- Intimidating Presence gives you something to do if you can't attack a foe right away. It can be great if paired with other abilities from your group (like grappling or restraining foes), and it synergizes with Frenzy;
- Retaliation is dope as hell.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, "enjoy" is a mixed word because people enjoy things for whatever reason, even a character concept that . But what is good about it:

- Frenzy gives you the highest damage output at level 3 in the one or two battles that you use it;
- One level of exhaustion tends not to be too detrimental to Barbarians, because they're not usually responsible for important ability checks (other than busting doors?);

It is worth noting that Frenzy doesn't grant you extra damage on that first turn, an average encounter is somewhere between 3-5 rounds, it's limited to melee attacks, so you're likely not to get more than 3 turn's worth of actions out of it.

Assuming you only use one Frenzy per day, to avoid stacks of Exhaustion, that's about 2.5 extra attacks per day.

A Fighter with Action Surge gets one every Short Rest, regardless of their subclass features. We could probably assume about 2-3 encounters per day, and you're likely to have a Short Rest between each encounter, so the base Fighter gets about 2.5 extra attacks per day.

Difference is, the Fighter jumps to 5 extra attacks per day at level 5, while the Berserker stagnates at 2.5 with Exhaustion. That's before including the option for the Fighter to make other BA attacks from a feat, or even including the Fighter's subclass.

There's other examples, it's just that comparing the Fighter's Action Surge to Frenzy's BA attack is very straightforward and easy to compare without getting into number specifics (like how Zealot pulls out almost as much damage with no drawbacks, and has better nondamage features).

[Dienekes]

Even considering every Barbarian takes GWM, its bonus attack is mostly situational, requiring either a crit or dropping a creature. Frenzy has the cost of exhaustion, but it's on all the time, and you don't even need to use the Attack action to take it (which is underrated).

But as per your own words it's not all the time. It's one fight a day, maybe 2. I suppose it comes down to does the Barbarian get more kills/crits than they get turns in 1.5 fights a day. After acknowledging that one round has used their Bonus Action to go into Rage of course. And I kinda think they do at least usually.

It also ignores the amazing +10 damage but that's just overkill.

Personally, I'd definitely take GWM over Frenzy. But you're right that is only one part of the equation. In my opinion the single best thing a Frenzy Barb gets is Mindless Rage. That is actually an awesome ability, that can save you from having to get proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. I don't think Intimidating Presence is more than mediocre as discussed above. As to Retaliation it's good. But it's just less than getting one additional attack at level 14. Since your Reaction is already pretty much only used as Opportunity Attacks anyway. You essentially get another method of getting it.

Again this is not saying that a player can't have fun playing it. I can have fun playing anything. But it's still looking like a pretty bad subclass.

[Specter]

It is worth noting that Frenzy doesn't grant you extra damage on that first turn, an average encounter is somewhere between 3-5 rounds, it's limited to melee attacks, so you're likely not to get more than 3 turn's worth of actions out of it.

Assuming you only use one Frenzy per day, to avoid stacks of Exhaustion, that's about 2.5 extra attacks per day.

A Fighter with Action Surge gets one every Short Rest, regardless of their subclass features. We could probably assume about 2-3 encounters per day, and you're likely to have a Short Rest between each encounter, so the base Fighter gets about 2.5 extra attacks per day.

Difference is, the Fighter jumps to 5 extra attacks per day at level 5, while the Berserker stagnates at 2.5 with Exhaustion. That's before including the option for the Fighter to make other BA attacks from a feat, or even including the Fighter's subclass.

There's other examples, it's just that comparing the Fighter's Action Surge to Frenzy's BA attack is very straightforward and easy to compare without getting into number specifics (like how Zealot pulls out almost as much damage with no drawbacks, and has better nondamage features).

Look, I never said Barbarians are better than Fighters, right? I don't think that. I don't even play Barbarians most of the time! Point is, you can play a Berserker and be as good an addition to a party as other Barbarians. On occasion at lower levels you might need to rest longer, but that's it, really.


But as per your own words it's not all the time. It's one fight a day, maybe 2. I suppose it comes down to does the Barbarian get more kills/crits than they get turns in 1.5 fights a day. After acknowledging that one round has used their Bonus Action to go into Rage of course. And I kinda think they do at least usually.

It also ignores the amazing +10 damage but that's just overkill.

Personally, I'd definitely take GWM over Frenzy. But you're right that is only one part of the equation. In my opinion the single best thing a Frenzy Barb gets is Mindless Rage. That is actually an awesome ability, that can save you from having to get proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. I don't think Intimidating Presence is more than mediocre as discussed above. As to Retaliation it's good. But it's just less than getting one additional attack at level 14. Since your Reaction is already pretty much only used as Opportunity Attacks anyway. You essentially get another method of getting it.

Again this is not saying that a player can't have fun playing it. I can have fun playing anything. But it's still looking like a pretty bad subclass.

Fine, you can take both if you want. The -5/+10 is good for anyone, anyway. The main thing is you get to actively choose when you want bonus attacks - that's the good thing about it.

As for being a 'bad subclass', it definitely isn't. The level 6 feature is worth the subclass even if you don't use Frenzy, and Retaliation lets you attack pretty much all the time against melee opposition, which opportunity attacks don't do (and they're enemy-dependent).

Anyway, hope I got some good arguments for Berserker across, I'm out. Peace.