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Yakk
2020-06-19, 08:44 PM
So I'm looking shore up the "back 10" of non-spellcasting classes, especially with non-combat utility.

The thought I had was to poach 4e's epic destinies (and paragon paths), and give them as extra features to "martial" (non-caster) characters.

Barbarian, Rogue, Fighter and (maybe) Monk (Monk's Ki is semi-half caster, but their "spell list" is anemic enough I think they count).

Sometimes mechanics, sometimes just the name. For example, here is poached mechanics:

Dark Wanderer
* Creatures with CR less than your level attack with disadvantage, and you have advantage against saves they make you take.
* You can walk to any destination within 24 hours, taking dark paths. It will take you to the main entrance of a structure. You can take up to 5+wisdom bonus creatures with you.
* If you die and are not resurrected, 12 hours your body and everything you carried at that point disappear. 12 hours after that, you arrive, walking back from death.

Here are some others whose name is tempting to poach, and maybe some mechanics:

Legendary sovereign
* Advantage on Charisma checks in a country you are destined to rule
* Mass resurrect (large numbers of people)
* Oath of Fealty (grant benefits to people who swear to you)

Dragonheart
* Fear is for the weak
* Resistance to elemental damage type, and ability to manipulate it
* Aspect of Dragon - Intimidate, Wings?

Star-favored champion
* Destiny dice (like divination wizard)
* Not my fate ability
* Flipping a coin having a 3/4 chance of giving the right answer

Warlord
* Boot Camp
* Tactical maneuvers
* Strategic planning
* Logistics

Keybearer
* Portal Key
* Open
* Lock
* Anchor

Primal Avatar
* Spirit Aid (pick an attribute; gain advantage on attribute checks and saves)
* Eternal Return (if you die with at least 5 HD remaining, you can incarnate within 1 minute. Roll the 5 HD and have that many HP and incorporeal.)

Reincarnate Champion
* Reincarnated Spirits
* Past Life Guidance

Thief of Legend

Trick is to keep the 'raw damage' and generally useful 'combat' abilities minimal.

aimlessPolymath
2020-06-19, 09:37 PM
A shamanesque "elemental lord" with the ability to command the elements would be cool.
-Command Elemental: Order 'em around.
-Shape Elements: Big weather effects, battlefield manipulation.
-Elemental Avatar: Summon one big elemental; maybe merge with it.
-Speak any language- even the language of rocks and winds.

Re: warlord, logistics is something generally absent from most mass-combat rules I'm familiar with; it would be interesting to look into how to handle them.

Mastermind:
-Turn people into sleeper agents w/ contingent Suggestion
-Identify people's price: Ask them "what would it take for you to ____", and receive a true answer.
-Generate a criminal network as a class feature; draw on it while in a connected area to generate a hireling with desired skills.

Yakk
2020-06-20, 01:51 PM
Those are good.

I figure it should start at level 11 (T3). One benefit should hit at L 17, one at 20 and maybe another at 14.

So 11, 14, 17 and 20.

Your "Destiny" level could be your level minus your caster level (which is mean to EKs/AT), or just you get +1 for every Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Monk level you have.

At most one "non-ribbon" of these abilities should be damage/tanking based. At most one more should be directly useful in "traditional" combat.

Something like "fire resistance" is a ribbon ability at level 11+; for the most part, affording a few "resist X" potions by T3 for every kind isn't unreasonable.

Yakk
2020-06-22, 01:00 PM
Legendary sovereign

Oath of Fealty
A creature can swear fealty to you as an action. Starting at level 11 you can accept this fealty. You gain advantage on all ability checks targeting any creature who has sworn fealty to you, and as a reaction you can grant them advantage on a saving throw, attack roll or ability check. While they can see or hear you, they have advantage on saves against being frightened or charmed.

This is not my Fate
Starting at level 14, when you make a death saving throw you can instead roll up to half of your maximum HD and regain that many HP. You can do this once before completing a long rest.

Legendary Presence
At level 17, increase your Charisma by 2 and your maximum Charisma by 2. In addition, while you are in your destined homeland, you have advantage on all charisma ability checks.

Immortal Host
Starting at level 20, as an action, you can bring back to life an unlimited number of allies who have died in the last hour within 100' of your current location. They return with maximum HP and all poison, disease, exhaustion or other conditions removed, and their body is reconstructed if it was damaged or destroyed by death. You cannot do this again until a week as passed.

Ok, a first draft of one.

I think it has too much combat and not enough utility.

Tvtyrant
2020-06-22, 01:16 PM
Followers can grant you expertise on skill checks by borrowing their skills, but they tax you by borrowing advantage or spell slots from you?

aimlessPolymath
2020-06-22, 01:31 PM
Try this:
With one hour of work in your destined homeland, you can gather a hireling to aid you; they will at least have any one proficiency you desire (though they may or may not have others). With a day of work, you can gather fifteen such hirelings. With a week of work, you can gather two hundred such hirelings.

Hirelings acquired in this way cost half the normal fee: 1 sp/day for an unskilled hireling, 1 gp/day for skilled hirelings, 1 cp/mile for a messenger, etc. At the DM's option, the local population may not have enough people with such skills to recruit, but they will never hesitate to leave their lives behind for you.

Yakk
2020-06-22, 01:47 PM
This is for spell-slot less classes, so no that doesn't work.

And half priced mundane hirelings are a bit weak for T3.

Expertise from hirelings is interesting tho. Still only "skill" level of utility tho.

Remember, we are competing against "simulacrum", "wish", "demiplane" and other high level spell utility by the end of T3/start of T4.

aimlessPolymath
2020-06-22, 02:08 PM
I considered the ability to call up a mid-sized army to be reasonably powerful- you can do a lot with that kind of manpower. It's not just about the 'half-price' aspect- I can cut that significantly further if it's a sticking point, and bring the time cost down too- it's about the reliable ability to call up a significant amount of manpower basically on a whim. The troops might not be able to fight a dragon, but they can certainly do some work to tie up the dragon's kobold minions.

I'm imagining it as roughly a level 13-16 ability, note- I wouldn't compare it to Demiplane or Wish yet. (If I was, multiply the number of followers by about ten to a hundred, or maybe let them worship you as a deity to give them cleric spells)

Maybe its better to go with one hour- 1, one day- 50, one week- 1,000, at 1/10 price (2 sp/2 cp), up to three selected proficiencies. You can't cast fabricate, but a few hundred people, all proficient with carpenter's or mason's tools, can do a lot of work very quickly. 50 people, all proficient with the bow, can deal a lot of damage to a giant. If they're proficient in Perception, you can organize a manhunt easily, etc.

Here's my 'divination' ability.
King's Library: By spending ten minutes within your territory, and spending 1 gp to tip the messengers, you can ask up to five questions on any topic. Within a day or so, messengers will return to you with any answers that could be obtained with a 25 skill check result on any Intelligence skill. If you personally travel to the library, you can ask as many questions as you like, though the sages will take an hour to answer each of them.

Comparison: Contact Other Plane, but safer.