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Akisa
2007-10-28, 04:38 AM
I’m looking to make a CG drow who’s not a Drizzt clone seeing as he seems to be the Sephiroth of D&D (which why the hell is he popular and gets on people nerves if someone tries to copy them). Now I don’t have a group as of yet so can’t provide background of the campaign world (but I avoid eberron and FR is a “do we have to… Ok I guess” situation for me). After reading about the drow and how they were transformed by the Seldarine in FR it gave me an idea about making a character. I was wondering if anyone could help me flesh out my idea (and maybe suggest a name ^^’).

I was thinking of making a drow who grew up on the surface in a community that worships Eilistraee and has never set foot in the underdark. Although she has grown up in a community that worships Eilistraee, she has heard stories of drow atrocities, and the racism she endures as a drow even during ‘the run’ she begins to learn to carry conceal weapons in order to protect herself narrow-minded individual. As time went by she begins to learn the history of the drows and how they were cursed or transformed after Lolth’s failed attempt to over throw Corellon Larethian. My drow then sets out to find the cure to the curse so she could be transformed into a normal elf. She quickly discovers that the best way to avoid confrontation was to disguise herself as another regular elf (or another elf subrace) as she did not want to harm people unnecessarily.
Now I was debating on creating a rogue or bard not sure what to go for, probably depends on what group needs and what sort of campaign is going on. Because I’m pretty sure I’m not going to have the patience for an undead campaign even if there is a lot of traps as I’ll see myself sitting around just provide flanking and aid another in combat while the warriors and spell casters have something to do.

(It's 4:39 am when I wrote this so please excuse my grammar and spelling ^^')

vegetalss4
2007-10-28, 04:47 AM
Congratulations.
you have just made a CG drow that is not a Drizzt clone.

why did you need our help?

Mike_Lemmer
2007-10-28, 05:14 AM
For more hooks, have her community be a legitimate part of some small country, so the other drow are trying to raise their reputation. Have her be a representative of the other converted drow, whether she likes it or not.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-28, 05:17 AM
It's not actually hard to create drow who aren't Drizzt clones, as there are many other types of stories to tell. I guiltily confess to having a drow stashed away in my own bag of tricks, although she's not good and, being aware of his existence, mockingly refers to Drizzt as "Drizzle."

Edit: If you're fishing for ideas, consider taking ranks in Perform (dance) and spending time dancing naked by the moonlight. Remember, that's your religious duty.

Well, part of it. :smalltongue:

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-10-28, 05:29 AM
Psst, wanna hear a secret?

The drow aren't as they are because they were transformed by the Seldarine. They were, originally, elves dark-skinned and resistant to magic. After Lolth's fall, Lolth sent her avatar(s) to find consorts among the dark elves and also called upon the Balor Wendonai to seduce and corrupt female elves. This led to the major drow bloodlines becoming corrupted and evil. Then, the rest of the elves did two massive High Magic rituals-the first to create Evermeet that also inadvertedly created the Underdark and the second to create a substance within the Underdark that would compell all drow to live there. It was due to the second ritual that drow assumed the powers of levitation and faerie fire.

At least that's the current story.

Adumbration
2007-10-28, 06:04 AM
Another plot-hook could be that she has been told all her life about the atrocities of drows. But she doesn't believe them. She thinks they're just inventions and propaganda of elves, and she has set out to prove that really, the drow-folk are nice and decent people, if a bit misunderstood.

Lolzords
2007-10-28, 12:45 PM
I made a CG drow archer type guy as my very second campaign, worked pretty well.

Renrik
2007-10-28, 01:07 PM
Nope, it's stilla Drizzt clone. It's a CG drow that wants to live a life without being hated for its race and doesn't like having to fight people. Also, Eliastree was basically created to facilitate Drizzt clones.

If you want to play a drow, play an evil character.

Solo
2007-10-28, 01:14 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt#Personality


Outwardly calm and composed, Drizzt has a controlled anger within him, a legacy of the time he spent living in the wilds of the Underdark surviving by instinct alone. While he has mastered that side of his psyche—he refers to it as the "Hunter"—he can still call upon it when he is hard-pressed and under great emotional duress. The "Hunter" is a purely instinctual being, which propels him to an almost invincible fighting state, at the same time stripping him of the compassion that epitomizes Drizzt's character. When not possessed by the "Hunter," Drizzt is a cool-headed peacemaker who is always willing to avoid a fight if he can, except with evil races such as orcs, giants, yetis or goblins. Even then, he looks for exceptions to the stereotypical prejudice of those races. When the situation calls for it, he is incredibly daring, yet controlled. He is extremely confident, to the point that several of his friends are convinced that someday the drow will leap into a situation which he will not be able to escape. He harbors a deep love for the surface world and cherishes his place in it (he loves to watch the sunrise, although it stings his eyes, although later in the series it does not burn as much), though many of its other inhabitants are still prejudiced against him. He cares little for the prejudice of those who do not know him, however, understanding that theirs is the flaw, not his (although this was not always so; when he first came to the surface, he tended towards depression and despair after such encounters). He accepts their reaction as being reasonable, considering the vicious reputation of his evil kin. His usual reaction to the initial fear and surprise (without plain aggression) is a kind and comforting smile.

To subvert the stereotypical Drizzt clone, you must be GC, but have a different personality, ie, a CG @$$hole who doesn't like the surface world, prefers the darkness, will get very angry when someone is prejudiced against her, is more emotional, opposed to cool headed, and etc.

The Neoclassic
2007-10-28, 02:05 PM
Congratulations.
you have just made a CG drow that is not a Drizzt clone.

why did you need our help?

Agreed.

I'd also like to say that as much as I HATE Drizz't clones, this example actually isn't all that close to one (though there are still some similarities). Whether we admit it or not, nearly all characters have something cliche or borrowed in them, so it's really not our place to be getting all high and mighty about what Akisa wants to play. I do like Solo's idea of going for a different personality, though I don't think it needs to be taken to a complete extreme. Just don't read about Drizzt (if you can help it); draw on other sources of inspiration to build your character's personality. One thing I'd avoid is the "I'm so amazing and self-sacrificing and noble" attitude of Drizzt and his clones; make your character have realistic flaws.

My two copper... Why did you need help again?

Jarlax
2007-10-28, 06:27 PM
first off she probably should not have a surname(house name) since such a naming convention would make no sense in a community with no houses. she may also choose to take a high elf name while she travels so you might not need to reveal her real name right away.

second she will probably have a strong opinion against Patriarchy and any examples of this that she encounters in her travels. her community is likely gender neutral with females or males being heads of families. so her world veiw would reflect this. she would take offense to any mistreatment or being underestimated based on gender (be it male or female).

finally she will probably avoid using her hand crossbow proficiency, spell like abilities, etc. that are unique traits of drow, with her society abandoning their heritage entirely. later on in life she may take a more sensible approach choosing to use those abilities after coming to the realization that these skills and abilities themselves are a natural element of her biology and not inherently evil.

you may find NG more to your liking, you respect laws and traditions of the places you visit unless they conflict with your moral veiws on torture, slavery gender inequality and other principles traditional drow are infamous for.

Renrik
2007-10-28, 07:17 PM
You could go in the opposite, angsty direction and play a resentful character, but hat's really just a type of Drizzt clne in and of itself- the wangsty drow outcast. They always turn out to be constantly bemoaning their curse and are so melodramatic and contantly emo that you just wanna ake one of those annoying scimitar/longsword/rapier/katanas of theirs and drive it through their skulls. Don't play good-aligned drow.The NG and CG always end up clonign Drizzt or being worshipersof Elistree (a godess created to facilitate Drizzt clones), and the LG ones just can;t be roleplayed correctly, because, well, they're drow. A CN or N drow is possibly acceptable, but you ought to just play an evil drow. People play drow for the cool imagery, but don;t want to have to be evil, so they make Drixxt clones. Just play an evil drow or a good non-drow.

Hawriel
2007-10-28, 09:11 PM
Wow Renrik you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder against good drow characters.

Your idea for your character to avoide confrontation by trying to hide her identity is fine. yeah Salvator did somthing similar with Drizzt. That in no way invalidates you falling a similar character devopment path. Even though your character grew up in a comunity that fallows Eilistreaa doens meen she or other drow from the same place are not going to have to deal with the out side world. The hatred and curse of the drow as a race is huge. Every one unless they have close ties to this small comunity is automaticly going to misstrust you at best and generaly think of you as being a evil demon spawn that has no worth outside furtalizer for any plants your coprs lies under. That would really cause alot of self dout, hatred, a need to prove this conseption wrong and many more reactions that can be conseaved. This is alot of pressure. I want to draw a paralel to race relations in the US but that will derail the topic. I would think one of the biggest goals of a community of Eilistreaa drow would be to redeam the drow race for themselves and the eyes of the world. but hay that might be to drizzt poser because after all onely one member of a race can think that way.

Jewish_Joke
2007-10-29, 12:07 AM
Renik, I feel really sorry for you if this is the only encounter you've had with good drow characters. I, for one belong to a group of experienced roleplayers who pulled off the whole "good drow" thing without playing clones of Drizzt, or any other angsty character, for that matter. She's here for advice, not criticism and naysaying. Having such a pre-conceived notion of good drow as unoriginal character concepts is kind of ironic considering the prejudice that such characters face in RPing terms is mirrored in real-life against the people that wish to play them. It can be done, and I applaud Akisa for coming up with such an original idea.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-29, 05:43 AM
Personally, every time I see an elven ranger, I have to resist the urge to think, "So you're Legolas."

But really, what is any dwarf character but Thorin or Gimli? And just how many "dark, mysterious warriors" are there? Always wearing all black, of course. With their faces hidden in shadow, etc. Emo. And they're probably Vampire LARPers, too, when they're not killing things with their giant greatswords or whatever it is they use.

Please. We're all being derivative here, 'kay? D&D is itself entirely derivative. The current halflings are Tolkien hobbits who got their genes spliced with Dragonlance kender, who were just funnier, sillier hobbits without hairy feet. Elves have been around since long before D&D was even imagined, and believe it or not, they didn't always hang out on Toril, or even Middle Earth.

The Neoclassic
2007-10-29, 06:30 AM
I would like to emphasize my strong agreement with the last two posters.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-10-29, 09:40 AM
Personally, every time I see an elven ranger, I have to resist the urge to think, "So you're Legolas."

But really, what is any dwarf character but Thorin or Gimli? And just how many "dark, mysterious warriors" are there? Always wearing all black, of course. With their faces hidden in shadow, etc. Emo. And they're probably Vampire LARPers, too, when they're not killing things with their giant greatswords or whatever it is they use.

Please. We're all being derivative here, 'kay? D&D is itself entirely derivative. The current halflings are Tolkien hobbits who got their genes spliced with Dragonlance kender, who were just funnier, sillier hobbits without hairy feet. Elves have been around since long before D&D was even imagined, and believe it or not, they didn't always hang out on Toril, or even Middle Earth.

I think the whole Drizzt clone scenario is more poignant because elves, dwarves, etc... all fall into their roles naturally. Nobody looks twice at a dwarf fighter or an elf ranger. However, the only way (using FR continuity...) that a drow would become good would be to be the exception. So regardless of whether or not anyone knows about Drizzt, a C/G drow is still not the norm for the Drow race (when I played in 2nd ed., one of the players in my group had a drow called 'Zachnafaen' (sp?). At the time it didn't jive well, mostly because everyone though this character was so awesome, though for the life of me I couldn't figure out why. He just seemed like a typical 'I want to play a different character to get more attention' character. I found out years later that his character was just a rip of a Drizzt storyline character....)

That being said, unless your drow goes out of her way to get a panther figurine and dual wield scimitars, I wouldn't worry about anyone crying foul or a 'Drizzt' clone. Back story and everything, your char's different enough that I wouldn't have made much of a connection if you didn't mention not wanting to make a Drizzt clone.

As for the additional background stuff, it seems like you pretty have all the pertinent information.

One interesting point in this discussion is that out of all the 'normally evil' races, drow seem to be the ONLY one people ever want to play. I think that's why people always groan over the */Good Drow idea. Personally, I'd be more impressed with a concept for a C/G orc or gnoll than a drow. Then again, that's likely good aligned orcs aren't the 'cool' races.

Solo
2007-10-29, 09:49 AM
I do like Solo's idea of going for a different personality, though I don't think it needs to be taken to a complete extreme. Just don't read about Drizzt (if you can help it); draw on other sources of inspiration to build your character's personality. One thing I'd avoid is the "I'm so amazing and self-sacrificing and noble" attitude of Drizzt and his clones; make your character have realistic flaws.


And make her wear bright, pink clothing, and plant flowers.

Catch
2007-10-29, 09:50 AM
Drizzt is a personality and that's what you want to avoid. Angst, brooding, persistent feelings of inadequacy and general malaise are all to be avoided. Hell, make a happy, friendly drow if you really want to break the mold. Maybe she's overly gregarious and cheerful, trying to act more like an elf and less like a drow.


I was wondering if anyone could help me flesh out my idea (and maybe suggest a name ^^’).

Try this (http://drowcampaign.roleplaynexus.com/drowlanguage.html) for starters. There's a nice table for names, and the rest of the site is a basket of goodies for the budding drow-player.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-10-29, 10:01 AM
Try this (http://drowcampaign.roleplaynexus.com/drowlanguage.html) for starters. There's a nice table for names, and the rest of the site is a basket of goodies for the budding drow-player.

But if she was raised in an Elven community, wouldn't she have an elven name? Or at least an elven 'cover' name for when she needs to interact with elves?

Catch
2007-10-29, 10:07 AM
But if she was raised in an Elven community, wouldn't she have an elven name? Or at least an elven 'cover' name for when she needs to interact with elves?

A community that worships Eilistraee. Eilistraee is a drow goddess, so I'd presume she'd have an Undercommon name. If not, an elven name would work well too, probably better, considering the breaking-the-mold idea and all.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-10-29, 10:33 AM
A community that worships Eilistraee. Eilistraee is a drow goddess, so I'd presume she's have an Undercommon name. If not, an elven name would work well too, probably better, considering the breaking-the-mold idea and all.

Ah, that works. I'm quite unfamiliar with Eilistraee. The only thing I know is that she's listed under the Drow pantheon, but isn't evil.

Alex12
2007-10-29, 10:57 AM
If you want to create a non-Drizz't-y CG Drow, you could make him come from the city described here. (yes, this is a totally shameless plug)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59591

If he's been raised someplace like that, he'd never have really faced racism, and his being good would never have been called into question. That could lead to some very interesting roleplaying, especially if the rest of the world still hates/fears Drow, and even more if he was friends with some even weirder things when growing up (Baby beholder, anyone?)[/shamelessselfplug]

Rex Blunder
2007-10-29, 11:41 AM
Also, just because someone draws a particularly powerful character, that doesn't mean they have drawn a magic chalk circle around their character into which you may not enter. Han Solo is cool; so I can't play a cool scoundrel with piloting skills in SWd20? Conan is cool; so I can't play a human barbarian? D'Artagnan is cool; so I can't play a swashbuckler who travels to England to save the Queen's diamonds? OK, maybe I shouldn't do that.

If you're sick of Drizz't clones, you shouldn't play them. But if you're not, maybe it would be fun to play one. The other people at your gaming table might roll their eyes; to be polite to them, if they've played with tons of Driz'zt clones, you might want to avoid it. (But they might just be rolling their eyes because that's the conventional thing they've seen other people do, like saying you hate mimes.)

ArmorArmadillo
2007-10-29, 12:11 PM
Okay, a Drizzit clone is more than just a 2-Weapon Drow Ranger.

"Drizzit Clone" as a concept, is really whenever you take a races predominate characterstics (Whether it be evil, good, or trickiness) and making a character that's the opposite "just to be different." It could be a Tiefling Paladin, a Elf who lives in tunnels, or a Gnome who refuses to use illusions.

It's a trite writing strategy because it doesn't really have a good basis in the setting, it's just differentness for differentness' sake.

It came out of FR because so much of the Realms lore was arbitrary because the gods hammered everything into place. Pretty much everything was "Mystra made them this, Lolth made them this, etc.", so more arbitrary decisions almost fit.

It's alright to break the rules, but you need to have a reason to do so.

Follow this line of questioning:
Why are Drow evil (Answer must not be "Lolth Made Them So")?

How does their society survive, being evil-dominant?

Without denying the previous answers, what reason could a drow have to be good and stick to it?


Example:
Drow are evil because the underdark is a vicious place, and the fittest (and most ruthless) survive.

Their society survives by taking advantage of the weaker races of the underdark, and relies on militarism and slavery to resist the stronger Illithid and other creatures.

Veradin Ao'Dun, however, believes his society is digging itself into a deeper hole with this strategy, even though it is necessary at the moment. He left the underdark to learn the secrets of a moral society from the surface dwellers. He now wants to return to the underdark and lead his people "out of the darkness."


Ta-da; even if he was a 2WF Ranger, he has the kind of emotional and story integrity that Drizzit never did.

Prophaniti
2007-10-29, 12:22 PM
For me, running a unique drow is not that difficult. The one I liked the best took the goodness and the helping other people parts from Drizzt and combined them with the randomness, unpredictable cleverness and flamboyance of Jar'laxle (who, btw, I find at least as compelling a character as Drizzt, if not more so. He's hilarious).

With the sheer volume of fantasy literature out there, no matter what you do with your character someone somwhere has done at least part of it before. Your best bet for something that FEELS original is taking parts of other characters, putting them in a blender and hitting 'frappee' untill you like what comes out.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-29, 02:03 PM
So if I play a pacifistic female half-orc bard, will she be a Drizzt clone? :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2007-10-29, 02:11 PM
Veradin Ao'Dun, however, believes his society is digging itself into a deeper hole with this strategy, even though it is necessary at the moment. He left the underdark to learn the secrets of a moral society from the surface dwellers. He now wants to return to the underdark and lead his people "out of the darkness."


Hah, I was going to recommend something very similar to this: A drow who felt his society was destroying itself, and so seeks to lead his people down a different path.

I'd made a NE (standard) elf once with a similar concept: He was disgusted at his people's lack of ambition, thinking that inevitably humans would overwhelm and destroy what he viewed to be the superior elven race through sheer effort.

Severus
2007-10-29, 02:52 PM
Play an Albino Drow.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-29, 03:11 PM
Wouldn't that be a light sensitive elf who used archmage levels to take crappy SLA's? Without any other benefits, of course.

Arakune
2007-10-29, 03:41 PM
I have a CN warlock quasi-insane drow, born assassin caste, trained guinea pig caste (+2 LA) that want to "kill" the drow society. They call him Dalton. :smallcool:

Only peoople without imagination make an ctrl+c ctrl+v drizzit clone.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-29, 03:50 PM
Play a caster. Then be prepared to let them die when they are hopelessly outclassed. Use them intelligently and don't constantly whine or go Emo. Ta-da!

Most of peoples problems with Drizz't centre around things other than his skin tone. At least mine do. The underdark and drow society seem like something that'd produce a lot of rogues (in the traditional sense of the word, rather than the class) and having some of them go "good" seems fine. It's his ability to monolouge combined with his ability to wipe out CR+a gazillion monsters in a world where everyone else is artifically stupid.:smallfurious:

Jannex
2007-10-29, 04:01 PM
One interesting point in this discussion is that out of all the 'normally evil' races, drow seem to be the ONLY one people ever want to play. I think that's why people always groan over the */Good Drow idea. Personally, I'd be more impressed with a concept for a C/G orc or gnoll than a drow. Then again, that's likely good aligned orcs aren't the 'cool' races.

I've done it with a minotaur. He was a fun character. Though in that case, I was reacting more against the "stupid and savage" stereotype of minotaurs in D&D than the "evil" stereotype; the fact that the character ended up NG was really sort of incidental.

Studoku
2007-10-29, 04:02 PM
I have a neutral/chaotic neutral half-drow (half drow, half human) rogue that was born on the surface. He never knew his father and was raised in a primarily human village and suffered predudice. When his human half-brother fell ill, the townspeople blamed the half-drow. The temple refused to heal his dying brother so the half-drow broke into the temple at night and stole several healing potions which he used to heal his brother.

The temple found out and an angry mob formed and attacked the house. The half-drow panicked and fled, leaving his half-brother, step-father and mother to be slaughtered by a fanatical lynch mob that was convinced they were hiding him.

He's still only a backstory though. He doesn' even have a name yet because I've never had a chance to use him in a game.

Arakune
2007-10-29, 04:03 PM
The original also make monologues? I though it was just a joke from the goblinscomic.com

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-29, 04:09 PM
Sorta. It's more like internal monologues.

Arakune
2007-10-29, 04:25 PM
Sorta. It's more like internal monologues.

And he stop doing things like Nale or he can multitask?

mostlyharmful
2007-10-29, 05:40 PM
And he stop doing things like Nale or he can multitask?

He internalizes because nobody is prepared to sit through his endless emoness.

Prophaniti
2007-10-29, 06:19 PM
The monologues are always at the beginings of chapters, they're more like journal entries. Mr Salvatore is just giving us an in-depth and personal view of Drizzt, making him less an action hero and more a (non)human interest story. Personally I like it, but obviously some people wont. If you dont, then read his Sellswords books, the ones that follow Entreri and Jarlaxle. Same great writing, no journal entries.

Raistlin1040
2007-10-29, 06:23 PM
Don't go CG drow. Just, don't do it. If you have to make a good drow, go Drow Paladin. I've done it, it's way more fun, and if you play it right. It's not like Drizzt at all.

Segial
2007-10-29, 08:39 PM
Playing a good character from an evil race is just lame, and it is a disease that seems to be spreading. Good drow, good duerger, or even good mindflayer *shudder*. Its trying to get the coolness of an villian race while at time beeing totally innocent, even victim of the stereotypes of others. In most cases, just dont do it. The cuteness factor of having dark skin, pointed ears and a badass race reputation simply doesn't outweight the lameness factor. IF you want to play a good character of an evil race, then play it in the evil society of the race. Like a CG drow freedom fighter that tries to overthrow the drow society from the inside, because that's a challenge, and not some blackskinned surface dweller. Or play something with a twist, like a really evil drow, how was magically turned good against his will, and hates it that his awakened councious always messes with his plans and his admiration for his beloved evil race. That would be a CG drow I could accept as a non-drizzt clone.

Jannex
2007-10-30, 01:33 AM
<snip>

Actually, you know what's lame? The arbitrary notion that every member of a given race (which ostensibly has free will and no overriding magical alignment imperative) has to be evil, for no discernible reason. The idea that there are no interesting stories to be told about a character that, for any number of reasons, deviates from the norm of his species. The idea that it's somehow "wrong" to subvert expectations for thematic effect, or just for fun. That's what strikes me as lame.

General advice: Play the character you want. Play it well. Have fun with it. That's kind of the point of the exercise, after all.

Aquillion
2007-10-30, 02:53 AM
Actually, what I would like to do:

You make a drow who goes on long, emo, speeches about how unfairly prejudiced against they are. Give the party long, boring lectures about racism. Talk about how you ceaselessly fight to the defend surface folk, even though those same surface folk hate you for your race. Present yourself as noble and selfless despite the irrational hatred you encounter from others.

Then, at the crucial moment, stab your party in the back and take their stuff, because you, like all Drow, are actually evil. As you fight, mock your former friends relentlessly for believing so readily that you were good, and taunt them with the things you are going to do to their corpses. (This only works assuming there's no paladin in your party, and nobody else goes around detecting evil... which few people do.)

But for the OP: Having your character naive and unwilling to believe how evil the other drow are is a good idea.

Another possibility: Drow are intensely matriarchal, so you can play up that part. Have her tend to be dismissive towards men, ignoring their opinions and treating them as second-class citizens. She shouldn't want to be like that (and should apologize if it's pointed out to her; you don't want to be annoying.) But you should make it seem like it's a part of her upbringing that she can't completely overcome.


Actually, you know what's lame? The arbitrary notion that every member of a given race (which ostensibly has free will and no overriding magical alignment imperative) has to be evil, for no discernible reason.Um, I'm not totally up to date on the latest versions, but the last I heard Drow actually did have something pretty close to an overriding magical alignment imperative. In most incarnations, they have a deity who (near-uniquely among D&D deities) goes out of her way to ensure that they remain as evil and corrupt as possible.

Lots of races have 'usually evil' on their stat sheet or worship an evil god, but the Drow have a goddess that goes out of her way to kill any good Drow she notices, and a society shaped specifically to make them evil while culling out any remotely good tendencies. I'll grant that some can escape, sure, but part of the reason why the drow-with-the-heart-of-gold trope evokes so much eye-rolling is because, out of all the 'usually evil' races, Drow are the most tightly-bound into evil.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-10-30, 11:46 AM
Actually, you know what's lame? The arbitrary notion that every member of a given race (which ostensibly has free will and no overriding magical alignment imperative) has to be evil, for no discernible reason. The idea that there are no interesting stories to be told about a character that, for any number of reasons, deviates from the norm of his species. The idea that it's somehow "wrong" to subvert expectations for thematic effect, or just for fun. That's what strikes me as lame.

General advice: Play the character you want. Play it well. Have fun with it. That's kind of the point of the exercise, after all.

The problem isn't that people are subverting expectations by playing CG Drow, it's that they aren't.

They usually don't have a good reason to be Good other than "Rebelling against the evil of my race." Distinctions like that make the evil of the Drow more arbitrary, not less.

If you want to play a CG Drow, think of a reason why he'd be good given the current society of the Drow, not despite it.

Alex12
2007-10-30, 12:18 PM
Playing a good character from an evil race is just lame, and it is a disease that seems to be spreading. Good drow, good duerger, or even good mindflayer *shudder*. Its trying to get the coolness of an villian race while at time beeing totally innocent, even victim of the stereotypes of others. In most cases, just dont do it. The cuteness factor of having dark skin, pointed ears and a badass race reputation simply doesn't outweight the lameness factor.
In BoED, on page 18 or 19, there's an example of a Redeemed Villain. It's a Mind Flayer Monk. Lawful Good. It's actually possible, provided you do it in an interesting way. That's the key. D&D is about fun, and provided you and the people you are playing with are having fun, there's no reason you can't all be what you want. Part Most of the fun in D&D, IMHO, is from roleplaying. If you roleplay a redeemed character (or otherwise Good member of a nongood race) if you do it right, it can be much more interesting than a generic PC race. I mean, what if the BBEG is another member of your race? That's okay if you're, say, human, or elf, or something, but if you're a CG Drow and the BBEG is also Drow? Bam, instant roleplay fodder! Even better is if your character knows the BBEG, like if they grew up together.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not what you play, it's how you play it.

The Neoclassic
2007-10-30, 01:08 PM
What I'm trying to say is that it's not what you play, it's how you play it.


They usually don't have a good reason to be Good other than "Rebelling against the evil of my race." Distinctions like that make the evil of the Drow more arbitrary, not less.

If you want to play a CG Drow, think of a reason why he'd be good given the current society of the Drow, not despite it.

I agree with both of these points. Good characters from primarily evil races, if well done, are perfectly acceptable and can be valuable, thought-out characters. Don't make too many generalizations either way, though; some good drow characters are poorly done Drizz't clones, but some are legitimately well-designed characters who make sense even given their backgrounds and the predominant drow culture.

Jannex
2007-10-31, 03:25 AM
The problem isn't that people are subverting expectations by playing CG Drow, it's that they aren't.

They usually don't have a good reason to be Good other than "Rebelling against the evil of my race." Distinctions like that make the evil of the Drow more arbitrary, not less.

If you want to play a CG Drow, think of a reason why he'd be good given the current society of the Drow, not despite it.

Hence the "Play it well" statement I made. Everyone should have characters with reasonable, well-developed personalities and backstories that make sense, I think. So yes, the character should have a good reason for being the way they are. That's far superior to being told "don't play it at all," however.

Vulgosh
2007-10-31, 02:16 PM
What about a drow or any elf at that matter raised by a dwarf.

Alex12
2007-10-31, 02:35 PM
What about a drow or any elf at that matter raised by a dwarf.

Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson, reporting for duty, Sir!



Yes, I know he's not an elf, but it's still funny.

Akisa
2007-11-01, 09:56 PM
I wonder making lawful evil elf who comes from a city would make such controversy, or how about a Chaotic Dwarf who doesn't believe in clan structure or maybe gnome who refuses to use illusionary spells.

AslanCross
2007-11-01, 10:28 PM
I wonder making lawful evil elf who comes from a city would make such controversy, or how about a Chaotic Dwarf who doesn't believe in clan structure or maybe gnome who refuses to use illusionary spells.

Not really, because they aren't as hackneyed as Drizzt. Seriously, though, it's not that hard to make a Chaotic Good drow who isn't Drizzt. Just avoid fighting with two slashing weapons. Maybe you could still experience the discrimination, but you react to it with a smile on your face instead (or maybe a rapier between a bandit's ribs).

(I noticed that people tend to confuse the spellings of Drizzt and Graz'zt.) o_o

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-01, 10:32 PM
I wonder making lawful evil elf who comes from a city would make such controversy, or how about a Chaotic Dwarf who doesn't believe in clan structure or maybe gnome who refuses to use illusionary spells.

Nope. It's pretty much limited to drow because Drizzt is so loved that scimitar-wielding (or dual-something wielding) good drow sprang up all over the place, and the backlash led to an equally fierce hatred of all things that in any way resemble him.

You can make an elven archer without anyone batting an eye ... I think because Legolas has simply been around too long for people to care. In fact, elves have become inescapably linked to archery in people's minds. Yet, as far as I can tell, the original elves of mythology weren't particularly inclined toward archery at all.

Getting back to Drizzt, personally, I don't like him very much. He doesn't make sense to me. He doesn't seem like a renegade drow so much as a non-drow who was plopped into the body of a drow and suddenly looked around and said, "WTF? Where am I??"

Liriel, now ... Liriel comes off as a drow.

The fact is, drow exist in the world, and if they exist, they're going to show up on the surface from time to time, too. Let's not forget that drow are able to take slaves, and many surface races show up in drow cities as slaves. Did it ever occur to anyone that the reverse is equally possible? There are surface cities that practice slavery, and drow are not somehow innately immune to the condition. Furthermore, they're so exotic that one could probably fetch quite a price in, say, Calimshan, I'd think.

Of course, now that we're getting into that subject, other races could end up as slaves in human cities, too. Even orcs. Although I'm thinking an orcish slave would be used strictly for manual labor ... :smallwink:

I think I've gotten off of the subject here. :smalltongue:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-01, 10:35 PM
Not really, because they aren't as hackneyed as Drizzt. Seriously, though, it's not that hard to make a Chaotic Good drow who isn't Drizzt. Just avoid fighting with two slashing weapons. Maybe you could still experience the discrimination, but you react to it with a smile on your face instead (or maybe a rapier between a bandit's ribs).

(I noticed that people tend to confuse the spellings of Drizzt and Graz'zt.) o_o

Drizzt isn't just a pair of scimitars; he's a particular kind of personality. Naenre (my own creation) favors a hand crossbow, but that isn't what makes her not Drizzt.

AslanCross
2007-11-01, 10:49 PM
True, though the notorious Drizzt clone also typically dual-wields slashing weapons.

Aquillion
2007-11-01, 11:51 PM
I wonder making lawful evil elf who comes from a city would make such controversy, or how about a Chaotic Dwarf who doesn't believe in clan structure or maybe gnome who refuses to use illusionary spells.Like I said, it's not comparable. Drow are subject to a specific situation that tends to cull out the non-evil members of the race very, very quickly.

Because of this, and because Drow in general are responsible for so many atrocities, they also tend to be judged as evil on sight much more quickly than any other race. So what if people see your dwarf and assume you're lawful? You don't care. The thing people hate most about the cookie-cutter good-aligned drow trope is the pathetic way it milks racial tensions for cheap sympathy.

The Drow race is, overall, defined primarily by its 'fallen' status, by the fact that its ancient forebearers succumbed to evil, betrayed their surface bretheren, and so on. The very existance of the race assumes both a strict dualistic character to the universe, and assumes the fact that it is, indeed, possible for a race to be "corrupted." These are not assumptions that are true in the real world, no, but that's the way it is. If you don't accept those basic assumptions, the backstory of the Drow makes no sense at all.

And focusing on how unfairly judged you are because of your race is a cheap, holier-than-thou way to make a character. Even if you want to claim that you're being "racially sensitive" and making a comment on racial / religious prejudices in the real world by doing that, it doesn't wash. If you try to make a parallel to real-world racial issues, you know what your typical Drizzt cookie-cutter Drow's characterization comes off as?

"Hey, guess what! I'm a minority, and I don't steal cars! Aren't I an interesting character?"

You can't have it both ways. Either you accept that, under the D&D universe's simplified black-and-white system, it's possible for a race to be mostly corrupted; or you reject that, in which case your character's concept is, itself, offensive when judged by real-world standards.

This isn't saying that there can't be interesting good-aligned drow. But it illustrates the problem you have to look out for, and it explains why so many people start to roll their eyes when they see that particular race-alignment combination on your character sheet.

Any way you look at it, "hey guys I'm a member of a usually evil race that is *gasp* not evil!" is a cringe-inducing way to define your character. It's fine if it's really just part of something larger and more interesting... but it often isn't.

Karma Guard
2007-11-02, 12:56 AM
What I'm trying to say is that it's not what you play, it's how you play it.


If you want to play a CG Drow, think of a reason why he'd be good given the current society of the Drow, not despite it.

In a similar vein as these two dudes, the most important thing is to never forget that your Good member of a Typically Evil Race is still part of that race. They're still going to act like that race; they did come from their society, after all.

Even an above-ground, Eilistraee-worshiping community of Drow are still Drow. Drow are matriarchal and consider males to be inferior. They believe in survival of the fittest. They're also really fond of poison and other underhanded fun things. Eilistraee believes in song and dance, and in good, honest work. Her priesthood is almost exclusively female. She let herself be cast down to provide a 'way out' of Lolth's service. She has ritual hunts of animals (or evil beings that are being...evil. :V) that involve blessed weapons and naked hunting.

Taping these two things together gets you a Good Drow nocturnal community that has a good number of bards and other craftsmen, with a small priesthood that hunts down lycanthropes and other evil creatures to protect this community (possibly under the noses of other, less sylvan communities). They're still matriarchal and somewhat more serious business about survival of the fittest than human communities ('Well, she knew how dangerous the wolves can be during winter. She'll be missed, but let us all take this lesson to heart.'), and prone to rumors. They're also a little prone to martyrdom. But they're still Good.

Keep that environment in mind when you play your character (Or whatever you come up with for how her community behaves), and you'll be fine. So long as she still acts like the product of her society, there's nothing that they can really say about your character being a Driz'zt clone.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-02, 01:36 AM
Keep that environment in mind when you play your character (Or whatever you come up with for how her community behaves), and you'll be fine. So long as she still acts like the product of her society, there's nothing that they can really say about your character being a Driz'zt clone.

There you go. That's it, right there.

That's what always bugged me about Drizzt.