Is this homebrew cantrip too OP?

[Tzun]

Hello playground, one of my players came up with a homebrew cantrip for our home game and wants to use. Is it too OP? At higher levels I feel it is but what about the first tier?

BINDING BLOB:
An adhesive blob bursts forth from your hand toward a single creature (Large or smaller), coating it and the ground around it. The blob becomes tough and resilient upon exposure to air. The target must make a Dexterity save or be glued to the floor, Grappling the target. On a success, the blob has no effect on the target, oozing off the creature instantly.

At Higher Levels

At 5th level, the area of effect expands, coating all creatures in a 5 ft. radius of a point in range. At 11th level the blob becomes more potent, effectively Restraining the targets. At 17th level the area of effect expands, coating all creatures in a 15 ft. radius of a point in range.

[TIPOT]

A few things, what are the rules for escaping the grapple if you're hit? Also what's the duration and is it concentration (it probably should be)?

[Tzun]

A few things, what are the rules for escaping the grapple if you're hit? Also what's the duration and is it concentration (it probably should be)?

Good question. As of right now it's no concentration and no duration so I guess first thing I would do is either make it concentration or make it last one Rd?

[Bobthewizard]

I love the idea of this as a cantrip but it is very powerful as written.

You need to add a range. I'd suggest 15'. Out of melee but not a long-range disable.

Add concentration and a STR save to escape at the end of their turn, no action required. If you don't want concentration, then at least "the spell ends if the creature escapes or you cast this spell again," so they can't spam it against a whole army.

I wouldn't add restraining, either. Making someone's speed 0 is powerful. Action denial or advantage/disadvantage is clearly above a cantrip scale.

For scaling, I would have it target multiple creatures instead of everyone in a radius. At 5th level, you can target 2 creatures within range, 3 creatures at level 11 and 4 creatures at level 17. This still might be a little OP. I would only do this scaling if you add concentration. Without concentration, I wouldn't have it scale at all.

Without concentration, I would take it every time and it usually would be the only cantrip I use in combat. With concentration, I would still take it and use it to conserve spell slots, but not every combat.

[JellyPooga]

1) Changing the effect from Grappled to Restrained at higher levels has no precedent1. Stick to one or the other.

2) Increasing AoE at higher levels has no precedent1. I'd be wary here too. Bobthewizards suggestion of increasing the number of targets instead is a solid one.

3) Cantrips inflicting full-blown status effects is...dubious. As GM, I'd call it the realm of 1st level spells to be inflicting the Grappled condition, let alone Restrained. For reference, see Entangle, Grease, Sleep, Fog Cloud, even Ray of Sickness. Yes, these all have greater effect, whether it be damage, AoE or whatever, but I'm still wary of status conditions inflicted by Cantrips. Vicious Mockery is an absolutely solid Cantrip because it imposes disadvantage on a single attack; your Cantrip is much better than that. Even before 11th lvl, gluing someone to the ground without having to put yourself in harms way is still a very powerful tool; like, "this will trivialise encounters" good. Cantrips should not be doing that. After 11th level, you're looking at an AoE ranged disable. At-will. I would consider the implications very hard before approving this. For me, the Restrained is a hard "no" and even the Grappled is a soft one; I'd need a lot of persuading.

4) Size limits. You have one listed (Large or smaller), but perhaps this is where the scaling can come in, rather than changing the condition or increasing the AoE/targets. Maybe limit it to Small at 1st level, increasing by one size category per tier (i.e. Medium @5th, Large @11th, Huge @17th).

5) As TIPOT says, no mention is made for escape conditions. Is it an Action to escape (as per normal grappling rules)? Str check? Dex check? Clarify this in the spell description, rather than leaving it to assumption.

6) Duration. Range. None listed. Fix that. You're on it? Good.

7) Concentration. Yeah, you definitely want this to be a concentration spell, but therein lies a problem. If it takes your concentration, it's basically worthless, but without it it's probably a bit too good1.

1For a Cantrip.

[Tzun]

Great insight and suggestions. Yeah the later tier stuff is way too much. Definitely get rid of restrained and change it to increase number of grappled within a certain radius. The range I forgot to give is 30 ft. 1 action cast time. I think if I make it concentration it may become useless.

So here's what I got so far:
No concentration
No duration but target gets to make a grapple escape str (ath) check at the start of each of it's turn no action required.
At 5th level can target 1 more creature within 5 ft of original target.
At 11th target 2 more within 10ft
At 17th target 3 more within 15ft

Is this acceptable?

[RolleyPolley]

In my opinion a cantrip that causes the grapple condition is a very OP cantrip. Use this as your action, a bonus action spell to boost or heal another party member, and that is instant advantage on that target until his turn, and possibly longer. Potentially could have 2-3 party members go before the enemy. That's a very strong cantrip that needs very little set up.

That being said if this is something your player is looking for I'd be curious as to their motives. Are they wanting something to keep an enemy in a specific place, or is to allow them to get away. Knowing that might help tweak the spell to be a bit less OP.

Something like instead of causing grapple, it might cause half speed at 1st level, and as it levels the reduction of speed gets higher to maybe grappling at the highest level. To balance this out and not have it be too weak, you could add a bit of acid damage to it.

If you do go forward with the grapple, I do agree with making a STR check at the start of the turn without an action. That brings the OP level down to reasonable levels. You could also want to think about making the STR save a flat save number instead of allowing it to be the casters spell save. 1st level, DC12, then DC14, then DC15 or whatever. At higher levels your PC's Save DC could be upwards of 20+. After the BLOB already attaches to the enemy, it's no longer part of the spell and it would make sense to have it be a flat DC.

Just my 2c

[Keltest]

Great insight and suggestions. Yeah the later tier stuff is way too much. Definitely get rid of restrained and change it to increase number of grappled within a certain radius. The range I forgot to give is 30 ft. 1 action cast time. I think if I make it concentration it may become useless.

So here's what I got so far:
No concentration
No duration but target gets to make a grapple escape str (ath) check at the start of each of it's turn no action required.
At 5th level can target 1 more creature within 5 ft of original target.
At 11th target 2 more within 10ft
At 17th target 3 more within 15ft

Is this acceptable?

Is the DC for escaping the casters spell save DC? Because honestly this sounds like "Mage killer, the cantrip" at higher levels. Spellcasters, as a rule, will not be proficient in either str or dex saves, or in athletics, and they may well have a penalty to the athletics check in particular depending on the exact flavor of spellcaster.

[Tzun]

Yes escape DC is spell casters DC. Maybe it would be better if I say that if the target fails it's original dex save, it is grappled until the end of it's turn. No further rolls needed.

[Keltest]

Yes escape DC is spell casters DC. Maybe it would be better if I say that if the target fails it's original dex save, it is grappled until the end of it's turn. No further rolls needed.

That sounds better. "You miss a dex save, you cant move on your next turn" seems much more fair at a cantrip level. Restrained would still be pretty brutal on anything without a good dex save. Rogues would be drooling to have that in a party.

[Bobthewizard]

Maybe it would be better if I say that if the target fails it's original dex save, it is grappled until the end of it's turn. No further rolls needed.

I like this. Much better for a cantrip. Now it doesn't need concentration.

[NecessaryWeevil]

In my opinion a cantrip that causes the grapple condition is a very OP cantrip. Use this as your action, a bonus action spell to boost or heal another party member, and that is instant advantage on that target until his turn, and possibly longer. Potentially could have 2-3 party members go before the enemy. That's a very strong cantrip that needs very little set up.


Grapples don't grant Advantage.

[Tzun]

Right grapple does not grant advantage. It drops the target speed to 0 but the target can still attack normally and attacks against it are at normal, ie no advantage.

[RSP]

Not sure it matters in terms of OP or not, but what classes will have access to this? Is it just for the on Player, or will others be able to take it (including your NPCs)?

[LtPowers]

Yes escape DC is spell casters DC. Maybe it would be better if I say that if the target fails it's original dex save, it is grappled until the end of it's turn. No further rolls needed.

Don't use the "grappled" condition. The condition (specifically, its termination conditions) assumes there's a creature actively grappling the target. Instead just say it drops the targets's speed to 0 (and prevents the target from benefiting from any bonuses to its speed) until the end of its next turn.


Powers &8^]

[Throne12]

Only damaging cantrips scale. Guidance dont effect more targets. Spare the dying can wake the unconscious character up. Light doesn't get brighter. Cantrips dont scale yes damage does but that's a game mechanics. So for this cantrip think about what your trying to do. Then look at the power level of other cantrips and other classes can do with out special class abilities. So for example you can use an action to push, shove, knocked prone, grapple, help=give advantage, impose disadvantage, attack = damage, stabilize a dying creature, . This is what combat cantrips should be doing and nothing more

So if your making a cantrip cant do anything stronger then you can do in a standard action alone.
So for your can trip I would make it a magical grapple so they have to make a Athletic check against your DC. If they pass nothing happens if they failed there movement speed is zero untel they pass the check or you lose Concentration. The range of the spell should be 30 feet. The duration of the spell is 1 min. And the school is Conjuration.

You could add the part fro. Acid splash where you can target two creatures that are with in 5ft of each other.

But I wouldn't add any scale stuff at all it already a nice and powerful cantrip.

[werescythe]

Hello playground, one of my players came up with a homebrew cantrip for our home game and wants to use. Is it too OP? At higher levels I feel it is but what about the first tier?

BINDING BLOB:
An adhesive blob bursts forth from your hand toward a single creature (Large or smaller), coating it and the ground around it. The blob becomes tough and resilient upon exposure to air. The target must make a Dexterity save or be glued to the floor, Grappling the target. On a success, the blob has no effect on the target, oozing off the creature instantly.

At Higher Levels

At 5th level, the area of effect expands, coating all creatures in a 5 ft. radius of a point in range. At 11th level the blob becomes more potent, effectively Restraining the targets. At 17th level the area of effect expands, coating all creatures in a 15 ft. radius of a point in range.

Like Tipot said, you should definitely include potential escape conditions, a duration and if it requires concentration.

I would suggest that at the start of the creature's turn it can make a Strength check (against player's Spell Save DC), if they fail they remain bond. If they succeed the escape.

I would also suggest having the spell require concentration and have a duration of 1 minute.

That's just my opinion. :smallsmile:

[HappyDaze]

Regardless of how the mechanics finalize, the part about it coming from the hand needs to go. This should visually look like hocking up a giant wad of magical phlegm.

[DeTess]

As I mentioned in your other thread, I really don't think a save-or-lose, especially a no-concentration longer-duration one, even one that is only applicable to a subset of targets, should be a cantrip. This should absolutely be a 1st level spell at least. If you want to keep the flavor and it's status as a cantrip, make it something like a poison or acid ray of frost instead, with damage and a movement penalty as a rider effect.

[langal]

As it is right now, it a lot better than Web. It shouldn't scale either. Damage cantrips scale because hit points scale. Even then, hit points increase at a far faster rate. It's not same with effects.

Heck, this is arguably better than Hold Person. Much better at 11th level.

[Seclora]

I would have it grapple the target until the end of its next turn, 20ft range(normal for thrown weapons), single target, no scaling. If you wanted to add 1d4 acid (or even bludgeoning) damage and have that scale, that'd probably be fine too. Making it last longer would need to require concentration, which would honestly make it less viable at higher levels anyways. As it is, locking a single target in place is a pretty good effect at any level.

[WaroftheCrans]

Non damaging cantrips don't and shouldn't scale. Riders for cantrips don't and shouldn't scale. Number of targets for cantrips don't and shouldn't scale.* Those are the things cantrips absolutely don't do. You as a DM could ofc change that, but I think it wouldn't be good for balance.
I can't think of a single pure debuff cantrip, but I feel that I might be wrong about that. That being said, cantrips tend to balance damage against riders against range against saying throw/attack roll. For instance compare ray of frost to firebolt to sacred flame to poison spray.

So this cantrip in its modified state is definitely unique. But that's not a terrible thing. In fact I think it's good.
There is also precedent for having a cantrip do the equivalent of a non-attack combat option, such as gust and lightning lure. The issue is making sure it's not much better than Greg the grapplers options.

My ideas are:
Range: 30 feet
1 target, large or smaller.
Duration: til end of targets next turn or alternatively, concentration, 10 minutes, with repeated saves/checks

Add in some noncombat utility, like gust, or a d4 or 6 of damage.

I think this would fit in the balance quite well. The original I'd rate as at least a 3rd level spell (compare entangle, web and hypnotic pattern, and that this required no concentration), and the modified one earlier in the thread would be somewhere around strongest cantrip by far*, or slightly subpar first level spell.

Sorry for the terrible structure of this post, hope it helps anyway.

*As always, eldritch blast is the exception.

[HappyDaze]

Something as simple as "leaving the square requires half of the creature's movement" or better worded would be fine.

[Bobthewizard]

So I suggest we use Gust as our template and then make the cantrip form there. No concentration, 1 round duration.


Transmutation

Level: Cantrip
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You seize the air and compel it to create one of the following effects at a point you can see within range:
• One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 5 feet away from you.
• You create a small blast of air capable of moving one object that is neither held nor carried and that weighs no more than 5 pounds. The object is pushed up to 10 feet away from you. It isn’t pushed with enough force to cause damage.
• You create a harmless sensory affect using air, such as causing leaves to rustle, wind to slam shutters shut, or your clothing to ripple in a breeze.


BINDING BLOB

Conjuration

Level: Cantrip
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

An adhesive blob bursts forth from your hand toward a single creature on the ground, coating it and the ground around it. The blob becomes tough and resilient upon exposure to air.
• One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have its speed reduced to zero until the end of its next turn.
• The target cannot gain any benefit from bonuses to its speed until the end of its next turn.

That's it. No scaling, no concentration, and no restraining. And it's still an amazing cantrip.

[HappyDaze]

So I suggest we use Gust as our template and then make the cantrip form there. No concentration, 1 round duration.


Transmutation

Level: Cantrip
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You seize the air and compel it to create one of the following effects at a point you can see within range:
• One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 5 feet away from you.
• You create a small blast of air capable of moving one object that is neither held nor carried and that weighs no more than 5 pounds. The object is pushed up to 10 feet away from you. It isn’t pushed with enough force to cause damage.
• You create a harmless sensory affect using air, such as causing leaves to rustle, wind to slam shutters shut, or your clothing to ripple in a breeze.


BINDING BLOB

Conjuration

Level: Cantrip
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

An adhesive blob bursts forth from your hand toward a single creature, coating it and the ground around it. The blob becomes tough and resilient upon exposure to air.
• One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have its speed reduced to zero until the end of its next turn.
• The target cannot gain any benefit from bonuses to its speed until the end of its next turn.

That's it. No scaling, no concentration, and no restraining. And it's still an amazing cantrip.

It still needs the fluff of "from your hand" removed so it can be described as hocking a wad of magic phlegm.

[Jerrykhor]

A 30ft grapple spell would be really powerful to drop flying creatures (without hover) that are within that range, would devalue Earthbind a bit, which is a niche level 2 spell.

Compared to Ray of Frost which is 60ft range but only has -10ft speed for 1 round, yes i think its pretty overpowered.

[Bobthewizard]

I hadn't thought about flying creatures. That is a good point. I added on the ground to my recommendation above.

[Joe the Rat]

BINDING BLOB

Conjuration

Level: Cantrip
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

An adhesive blob bursts forth from your hand toward a single creature on the ground, coating it and the ground around it. The blob becomes tough and resilient upon exposure to air.
• One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have its speed reduced to zero until the end of its next turn.
• The target cannot gain any benefit from bonuses to its speed until the end of its next turn.

That's it. No scaling, no concentration, and no restraining. And it's still an amazing cantrip.
Definitely solid.
Grappled condition is still viable -you can define the creature as grappled by an effect or to a location (grappling creature or grappling effect). This gives you the effect of being able to end the condition early if the creature can be dislodged from that location. Otherwise, the 0 move sticks to the target, so to speak.

You have to decide if it's the "stick to the location" or "leg-restraining goo" that is the operative function.