How to deal with rocketlauncher tag

[ChudoJogurt]

My party has reached the 9th level. We're a regular Tier 3 mid to low op campaign, and I am starting to see that effect from our party warmage.
Either she blasts the opposition to smithereens (unless they're very tanky or have specific anti-build armor), or she ends up dead or at least knocked out in the first round.
And obviously using a similar level warmage against the party is just straight out out of the question because empowered 9d6 spells can wipe out 3 out of 4 party members given an unlucky rolls on their part, which is not fun for anyone.

Anything I was able to come up with seems to also shut down the warmage entirely and make her just straight un-fun to play.
Stuff like counterspelling (yay, you wasted your turn doing nothing), spell-immune opponents such as golems (yay 80% of your class abilities are useless, and you have to spend 15 minutes per turn finding those spells that are SR: No). Alternatively, my attempts at counter-building have been mostly unsuccessful as element resistance is too narrow and weak, pinning her with fighters does nothing due to five-foot-steps and casting on the defensive.

I don't want there to be rocket tags. I want fun, fulfilling tactical fights.
So... how do you guys deal with this?

Any tips, tricks or homebrew rules?

[LordCdrMilitant]

My party has reached the 9th level. We're a regular Tier 3 mid to low op campaign, and I am starting to see that effect from our party warmage.
Either she blasts the opposition to smithereens (unless they're very tanky or have specific anti-build armor), or she ends up dead or at least knocked out in the first round.
And obviously using a similar level warmage against the party is just straight out out of the question because empowered 9d6 spells can wipe out 3 out of 4 party members given an unlucky rolls on their part, which is not fun for anyone.

Anything I was able to come up with seems to also shut down the warmage entirely and make her just straight un-fun to play.
Stuff like counterspelling (yay, you wasted your turn doing nothing), spell-immune opponents such as golems (yay 80% of your class abilities are useless, and you have to spend 15 minutes per turn finding those spells that are SR: No). Alternatively, my attempts at counter-building have been mostly unsuccessful as element resistance is too narrow and weak, pinning her with fighters does nothing due to five-foot-steps and casting on the defensive.

I don't want there to be rocket tags. I want fun, fulfilling tactical fights.
So... how do you guys deal with this?

Any tips, tricks or homebrew rules?

What system is this and what exactly is happening?

If they're using spells, in 5e add more enemies; they can't do that all encounter and all day.
If you want more fun, fulfilling, and tactical combat, embrace the rocket tag, and introduce more maneuver-based elements to it.

[ChudoJogurt]

Whoops, I meant to post it in D&D subforum.

Yeah, it's D&D 3.5. We have a glass cannon that is a bit problematic both in how much damage it can deal, and in how little it can take, and I was hoping for some ideas how to balance that out a bit.

[Zarrgon]

1.Mix up the foes. Add more monsters and foes from anything beyond the core rules. You should be able to find a bunch that are tough, can take a magic hit or have some type of new special ability.

2.More foes can work out. Once you figure she can say "blast 10 orcs"...well have 20 orcs.

3.Spread the foes out. This tactic works great. 25 darkwings spread out in a 'X' pattern and she can only hit, at beast five with any one spell. This is very effective.

4.Big tanky threats. Another good one. Make a foe or two a huge target, but a tanky one. Even better if it's a ranged attack threat. Like a gargantuan fire tortoise with a volcano on it's back that shoots fireballs.

5.Foes that can dodge/save. An easy one. The drow group are all x level class and have evasion or high dodge saves or whatever else. They get hit, but greatly reduce the damage.

6.Tactics. If foes do anything more then just stand there and attack, you will see a huge difference in battles. Even something simple like a group of five foes comes into the fight every round.

7.Obvious Targets. Across the battle field are six red robed wizards all standing around a huge burning brazier, each round a huge fire dragon slowly comes out of the brazier...head one round one, neck and claws round too. Might be a good idea to shoot them before the dragon comes....

8.Decoys. Illusions are made for this. This does fall under "wasting a spell" yes, but it's part of the game combat.

9.Tight close spaces. This limits the effect of most spells.

10.Unusual environments. Both underwater and in the air work great with the 360 x 360 combat as foes can come from any direction. This also greatly limits spells. Even just in the tree tops or cliffs can work great.

To make interesting encounters at about 9th level takes some work...but it's worth it.

[Falontani]

Alternatively, my attempts at counter-building have been mostly unsuccessful as element resistance is too narrow and weak, pinning her with fighters does nothing due to five-foot-steps and casting on the defensive.

I don't want there to be rocket tags. I want fun, fulfilling tactical fights.
So... how do you guys deal with this?

Any tips, tricks or homebrew rules?

1. Longer reach; a 5 ft step does great, if you can exit the creature's reach with it, but if they have to move 20 ft to exit the creature's threatened space, then it will be a lot more difficult

2. Mage Slayer; Any creature that has experience battling mages, isn't themselves a mage, and has the necessary intelligence to adopt and adapt tactics know that the biggest hindrance in a fight is the mage. No matter what they do, they more often than any melee or ranged unit throws wrenches into tactics. So anti mage tactics will have evolved.

3. 5 ft. step denial; Thicket of Blades, difficult terrain, and underwater combat all quickly remove the 5 ft step unless the caster was prepared with a spell to grant them a fly speed or swim speed (and even then thicket of blades still says nope)

4. Roaming hazards. If there are say a few 3.5 ft spheres travelling along the ground in very predictable paths, but leaving no spot safe for too long which do something that the party does not want (such as draining spell slots, causing debilitations, or otherwise making it harder for the party to fight) combined with an incredibly low ceiling (enough room for a large creature to squeeze, and that's it) then you can make it so the party has to maneuver or tank the debilitations.

5. Obvious Hidden Threat. Make the caster hesitate to act. If there is a creature that is known to be in the area, that could theoretically outright kill a party member, or that is taking things from the party that they need (such as weapons, spell components, etc) they quickly become priority target number 1, but if you can't find them, or if you can't act upon them until they themselves are acting, you have caused the mage to essentially give up their turn each round that they hold their action to do something to this obvious hidden threat. I personally like Ethereal Filchers and Ethereal Slayers with the shield spell, but it could be as dangerous as an Ethergaunt that can phase between the material and the ethereal plane on the same round as they could cast a spell.

[King of Nowhere]

11?16?whatever) make resurrection easy enough to get, then use the same tactics against the party. you will kill half of them on an unlucky roll sometimes, but it does provide depthj

[BioCharge]

By far the simplest tactic I've found is readied actions. Especially useful with ranged characters like archers. If they hit, they force concentration checks to maintain the spell. It's not too handy with individual combats, but if you have, say, a squad of mercenaries or something, having an archer or two ready an action to disrupt spellcasters does wonders on keeping them pinned down. Continuous damage from effects like Melf's Acid Arrow or setting them on fire works well for the same reason. Grappling is fairly effective, too, so long as the opponent isn't absolutely garbage at it.

On the defensive end, there's the Spellsink Scarab magic item in the MIC is a good item for low/mid level enemies. It's worth 2,000 gp, so it's not too expensive. Items and effects that grant a miss chance (like Blur or even a simple Smokestick) are also decent for single target spells. Don't be afraid to give intelligent creatures potions of such effects if it makes sense. The simple use of cover is, additionally, really useful, so long as they can't throw their AoEs behind it. If the enemy is a spellcaster and can cast 3rd level spells, the Magic Disruption feat from Complete Mage can reduce the caster level of an effect and any save DC by 2 as an immediate action, though it is defeated by a concentration check, so the player can overcome it with a good enough check.

These are just stuff off the top of my head. If I think of more, I'll post some more.

[AlanBruce]

The DM could always go the unpopular route and rule that “orbs are subject to spell resistance “.

Many at the table will bang their fists in fury. Books will fly across the room, no doubt.

But the rocket tag issue will have been solved, if not for every encounter (such as orcs), for the more interesting encounters, such as outsiders or golems.

[Quertus]

The party is 9th level… and "9d6 empowered damage" (so, like, less than 50 damage) can one-shot their foes? :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

Looking at the Monster Manual… CR 9 doesn't have much interesting (IMO), but even the Frost Giant has an average of 133 HP, so even a good roll with fire damage shouldn't one-shot them.

CR 8, OTOH, has the T-Rex. 180 HP, and it's not like it's unfair to send 2 of them against the party.

But let's drop all the way back to sending 4 CR 5 monsters against the party. A Troll has an average of 63 HP - even *that* can't be one-shotted by "9d6 empowered damage" but once in a blue moon.

So… you must be doing something very wrong? Because your Warmage should not be performing like you describe. At all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can introduce glass cannons of your own, and make combat all about surprise, rapid movement, cover, and so on.

Alternatively, you can introduce NPCs that are the opposite of a glass cannon: tanky, but useless. An easy way to make enemies tougher without overwhelming the party is to add class levels that don't really support their primary offensive trick, particularly class levels that come with additional defenses (paladin, hexblade, battle dancer, monk--Survivor does this most of all, of course).

I'm a fan of the spellcaster + 4 HD + Practiced Spellcaster combination. Losing spell levels is really bad, in that it makes you much less powerful, but that's exactly what you want in this case.

You can do the opposite with a melee class: add four levels in a half-bab caster. Your NPC will get a few nifty defensive tricks (like Abrupt Jaunt or barricade), but mostly, their spells will be too weak to be useful attacks.

For example, a build I often recommend is paladin of tyranny 2/dread necromancer 8/horned harbinger 2 with Practiced Spellcaster, Advanced Learning used on animate dead and consumptive field, and some Corpsecrafter feats. Run them wading into melee with their army of undead. This is an NPC with CL 25 animate dead, self-heals, high saves (Divine Grace), and enhanced undead minions. At the same time, they've only got 4th-level spells (and those are used on healing and buffing), that high CL is only out of combat, most of their abilities are focused on minionmancy, and they have mediocre base attack and Strength (being more focused on Charisma). So while you'll have a tanky and well-supported villain, it won't actually kill your party very quickly.

[HouseRules]

Any Optimized character could 1 round kill an equal leveled character.

Any Average Optimized character could 3 round kill an equal leveled character.

Any Below Average Optimized character could take forever to kill an equal leveled character.

A party could always focus fire, so any party of 3 or more character could always 1 round kill an equal level character.

The best way to deal with the issue is to ban "focus fire" for medium (4 or 5 characters) and large (6 or more characters) parties. It is best to use a Rule of 3 for focus fire. Every character after the third character that focus fire should get a penalty to attack that same character.

[Fizban]

But let's drop all the way back to sending 4 CR 5 monsters against the party. A Troll has an average of 63 HP - even *that* can't be one-shotted by "9d6 empowered damage" but once in a blue moon.
They said sending a warmage of their own to fight the party would one-shot the party- safe money says they've been using classed humanoid NPCs.

[ChudoJogurt]

Yep. That.
We're in a phase with political city campaign, so for now most enemies are humanoids with PC levels rather than monsters.

Its bit easier with monsters, since they are much tankier as a rule, and also, if a party murderizes a bunch of monsters in one shot -- more power to them, its not, usually, as detrimental to the plot and anticlimactic as a loss of a named NPC.

Also, I might have overreacted.

What happened was an Empowered Blast of Flame, dealing (37 (roll result above average)+3 (warmage edge)+8(Vest of Master Evoker))*1.5(from Empower, which I am not convinced is the correct order of operations here) for a 72 damage, that overcame SR17 and for which two out of three opponents lost their saving throws.
That was probably more lucky than a real problem that should come up very often...I hope.

[Gruftzwerg]

on the homebrew side I could recommend to adjust HP rules:

- max HP for everything, no rolls.
In a game where you can optimize dmg into infinity (looking at you d2 crusader..), the options for HP aren't anywhere near in comprehension. giving everything max hp for lvl/HD is the least one can do.

- altered HP thresholds for disabled and dying.
I always find it odd that the sole penalized conscious state is at 0 HP (disabled). Something that almost never occurs. Barely in the early levels and later never. And while at early levels the difference between 0 and -10 for dying is somewhat ok, on later lvls it feels almost nonexistent.
Expand the Disabled threshold from 0 till "-10 - half of max HP" and extend the Dying state from that till " -10 - max HP".
These changes should extend the combat length a bit and gives RP options when in the disabled state (retreat / beg for mercy / the stronger might ask the weaker to give up ...)

[Quertus]

They said sending a warmage of their own to fight the party would one-shot the party- safe money says they've been using classed humanoid NPCs.


Yep. That.
We're in a phase with political city campaign, so for now most enemies are humanoids with PC levels rather than monsters.

Well… Thai would certainly qualify for "doing something very wrong", at least to the standards by which 3e was made, and loosely "balanced" against.

Allow me to coin a new axiom to explain this phenomenon: "Samey content in, samey results out".

There's a reason my BDH party would brag about foes they'd fought by saying that they'd "waded through them like they were humans"


Its bit easier with monsters, since they are much tankier as a rule

They vary, but yes, humans are among the least tanky.


, and also, if a party murderizes a bunch of monsters in one shot -- more power to them, its not, usually, as detrimental to the plot and anticlimactic as a loss of a named NPC.

If your "plot" finds it detrimental for the PCs to kill an NPC, you've made a bad plot.

The primary method for D&D characters to interact with the world is by killing things (just look at the percentage of the rules and spells dedicated to such). If your plot cannot handle that interaction, kill it in its crib. And make a new plot.

When the PCs one-shot someone, is it anticlimactic? Sometimes. Other times, it's cathartic. So, split your NPCs - at every level - into 3 groups: those who can easily be taken out one-shot; those who have defenses; those who have an impressive entourage.

Color blue to taste.


Also, I might have overreacted.

Possible.


What happened was an Empowered Blast of Flame, dealing (37 (roll result above average)+3 (warmage edge)+8(Vest of Master Evoker))*1.5(from Empower, which I am not convinced is the correct order of operations here) for a 72 damage, that overcame SR17 and for which two out of three opponents lost their saving throws.
That was probably more lucky than a real problem that should come up very often...I hope.

That… looks like the NPCs were already ridiculously well defended against this attack (SR and a save, compared to a normal "I have AC vs your 'death by sword' attack").

[HouseRules]

- max HP for everything, no rolls.
In a game where you can optimize dmg into infinity (looking at you d2 crusader..), the options for HP aren't anywhere near in comprehension. giving everything max hp for lvl/HD is the least one can do.

That's like 4E, but 4E gave an additional d10/d11 at first level. Is 6 the same as max d6, 8 the same as max d8, 10 the same as max d10, 12 the same as max d12? Someone on the 4E sub-forum says no.


- altered HP thresholds for disabled and dying.
I always find it odd that the sole penalized conscious state is at 0 HP (disabled). Something that almost never occurs. Barely in the early levels and later never. And while at early levels the difference between 0 and -10 for dying is somewhat ok, on later lvls it feels almost nonexistent.
Expand the Disabled threshold from 0 till "-10 - half of max HP" and extend the Dying state from that till " -10 - max HP".
These changes should extend the combat length a bit and gives RP options when in the disabled state (retreat / beg for mercy / the stronger might ask the weaker to give up ...)

Or like GURPs where death is -5× max HP. Of course, it does not change the disabled range as much, but more realistic to non-leathal damage.

[Aotrs Commander]

Are you using maximum hit points for all the monsters/NPCs? If not, that's a good start, if you're having trouble. If max proves to be too much the first time you try it, that means you've straddled your balance point (then try 75% max or something.)

I'd be more concerned at 9th level with stuff like Black Tentacles + Cloud Kill in an enclosed space, so if the oft-stated-as-being-suboptimal-damage-dealing is your biggest issue, that's one problem to which there IS an easy solution; More Hit Points will do it.



(I'll be honestly, from my end, 72 damage at level 9 doesn't sound a lot; I saw damage well above that at that level from my party's warblade and shock trooper barbarian; at level 11, the latter is dishing out on the order of 200 damage regularly, by the time the party have slapped their usual four or five buffs up.)




- altered HP thresholds for disabled and dying.
I always find it odd that the sole penalized conscious state is at 0 HP (disabled). Something that almost never occurs. Barely in the early levels and later never. And while at early levels the difference between 0 and -10 for dying is somewhat ok, on later lvls it feels almost nonexistent.
Expand the Disabled threshold from 0 till "-10 - half of max HP" and extend the Dying state from that till " -10 - max HP".
These changes should extend the combat length a bit and gives RP options when in the disabled state (retreat / beg for mercy / the stronger might ask the weaker to give up ...)

This too.



I'm also going to say I very ferverntly disagree with Fizban and Quercus on the use of classed NPCs (or monsters with class levels), which I personally find ALWAYS give a far better and more interesting fight, so I absolutely don't think you are Playing It Wrong there.

[ChudoJogurt]

If your "plot" finds it detrimental for the PCs to kill an NPC, you've made a bad plot.

I absolutely don't mind players killing an NPC. That's what the NPCs are for.
I do have a bit of a trouble when the party's Liear Guild-like competition party is all taken out by one fireball.



(I'll be honestly, from my end, 72 damage at level 9 doesn't sound a lot; I saw damage well above that at that level from my party's warblade and shock trooper barbarian; at level 11, the latter is dishing out on the order of 200 damage regularly, by the time the party have slapped their usual four or five buffs up.)

Well, that would be to one guy at a time, at least.

For now, I think that I will ensure that Warmage Edge and Vest of Master Evoker (and similar) go after the multiplication by Empower, rather than before, and I'm also thinking of introducing "universal" element resistance, that would be like fire/cold/acid/lightning resistance, except at half power, but applying against all direct magical damage.

[Doctor Awkward]

What happened was an Empowered Blast of Flame, dealing (37 (roll result above average)+3 (warmage edge)+8(Vest of Master Evoker))*1.5(from Empower, which I am not convinced is the correct order of operations here) for a 72 damage, that overcame SR17 and for which two out of three opponents lost their saving throws.

That is not, in fact, the correct order of operations.

The Empower Spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) feat states that only variable numeric effects of the spell are increased by one half. The warmage edge class feature is a fixed numeric value, as is the bonus from the Vest of the Master Evoker. The only variable in the Blast of Flame spell is the 1d6 per caster level.
So what that spell should have done is 37 damage on the dice roll + 50% (18, rounded down) + 3 Warmage Edge + 8 Vest of the Master Evoker for a total of 66 damage.


So far as your concerns, I would simply increase the number of enemies that they are likely to face. If you know for a fact that he can easily defeat 10 guards in a single round, send 20 guards after the party. Or send a couple of larger enemies. Maybe one of the enemies they have to face runs an animal fighting pit and has a bunch of exotic nasties that they can set after the party. Like a pet pet chimera he has captured. Have the massive displays of evocation summon reinforcements to the area, including some low-level clerics that spend a turn readying dispel magic as a conterspell. Or cast energy resistance on the guards so that they are simply injured from his attacks instead of dying outright. Now the party can work together as a team to counter this threat by having the rogue sneak around or the fighter barrel on through to badger the cleric while he mops up the remainders.

[Gruftzwerg]

I absolutely don't mind players killing an NPC. That's what the NPCs are for.
I do have a bit of a trouble when the party's Liear Guild-like competition party is all taken out by one fireball.


Such things only happen is you lack strategy. If they all stand in line of effect of a single fireball, your positioning was bad.

Learn to position your mobs strategically, have backup mobs hiding/in the next room waiting, hide the enemy caster in the first round... the options are plenty. You just need to get used to that.
Remember that the battlemap is like a game of chess between the DM and the PCs. A lot depends on careful movement and strategy involving the surroundings.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That is not, in fact, the correct order of operations.

[...] including some low-level clerics that spend a turn readying dispel magic as a counterspell.
This and this. Here's an example cleric:

Azurin Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1
Spontaneous domain casting (Magic domain)
Abilities: 13+ Wisdom (to cast dispel magic), 13+ Constitution (to qualify for Soultouched Spellcasting), 14+ Charisma (to have 5 turning attempts)
Domains: Inquisition (bonus, from Church Inquisitor), Knowledge, Magic, Purification
Feats: Divine Defiance1, Soultouched Spellcasting azurin, Domain Focus (Magic)3, Versatile Spellcaster6
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Items: dispelling cord (1000 gp)
Caster level 6, +1 for abjurations (Purification domain), +1 for Magic domain spells (Domain Focus)
+7 on dispel checks (+4 untyped Inquisition domain, +2 insight Soultouched Spellcasting, +1 untyped Penetrating Insight, from Paragnostic Apostle)
+2 competence on dispel checks 5/day from dispelling cord

With one turn undead use, you can counterspell as an immediate action, burning any prepared spell(s) to spontaneously cast dispel magic. With Versatile Spellcaster, you have at least five third-level spells per day. Your bonus on dispel checks is +17, 5/day, and +15 after that (but you're out of spells anyway). At level 6, nothing magical is going to get past you for a long time.
This cleric adds very little to the encounter but counterspelling. With an elite array of 8/10/13/12/15/14 they only have 29 hit points, for example.

You should use these straight counters in moderation, of course, but it does make sense that strong anti-magic defenses are present at certain places and events.

[ChudoJogurt]

I actually used a Noctumancer to a similar effect, since they gett Immediate Action counterspelling.
But that did not get much positive feedback -- nobody likes to have their entire turn wasted.


Such things only happen is you lack strategy. If they all stand in line of effect of a single fireball, your positioning was bad.

It was one of those "sudden, yet inevitable betrayal" situations. And really, it'd be pretty weird if three guys who are supposed to be cooperating were constantly at least 20 feet apart. Good for social distancing, I suppose, but weird.

[Quertus]

I'm also going to say I very ferverntly disagree with Fizban and Quercus on the use of classed NPCs (or monsters with class levels), which I personally find ALWAYS give a far better and more interesting fight, so I absolutely don't think you are Playing It Wrong there.

First off, I have no problems with monsters with class levels. One of my first posts on the playground involved me advocating such. I would have figured the "classed humanoid NPCs" line, and my "waded through them like they were humans" comments would have made the context clear here.

This scenario is like "I'm using all fire elementals against a fire-immune sorcerer spamming cold damage, what do?" And (IMO, at least) the first thing to do is to acknowledge that "nothing but fire elementals" is inherently going to skew your results.

(And, IMO, the second step should be, "do you *really* need to run an adventure of fire elementals? You're kinda making your problem here when, normally, there wouldn't be one".)

Only then (again, IMO) do you move to, "well, there's builds you can give Fire elementals to kinda mix up the balance a bit".

Now, if you disagree with the steps I laid out, fine, but I suspect that you don't. I suspect that your only real, major point of difference with me is in how entertaining you've found "party v human(oid)s" combat.

This, of course, is an "argument I cannot win"; that is, if you show how it can be fun, then it is (which, from my PoV, means I "win", in that I get to learn something - being "wrong" is my favorite).

So, keeping in mind that we don't all play with your extensive house rules, please describe the kinds of "party v human(oid)s" conflicts that you have enjoyed in 3e… and that you think that would be enjoyable for this party, too

[tyckspoon]

The party is 9th level… and "9d6 empowered damage" (so, like, less than 50 damage) can one-shot their foes? :smallconfused: :smallconfused:


Average results on 9d6 empowered can take out 9d8 HD enemies that have little to no Con bonus - say, mook Warriors or classed enemies with lower HD values. Adding in some of the static bonuses the character had brings it up enough to also put down a bigger HD or counter more CON bonus.


@ original poster - worth noting your player would have had to use some strictly per-day resources to do that, beyond just the spell slot; they wouldn't have a high enough level slot to Empower a 4th level spell normally, which means they're either using a metamagic reducer (probably Metamagic School Focus, only works on 3 spells/day) or their 1/day use of Sudden Empower, plus one of the 3/day triggers for the Vest. Your player decided it was worth spending resources on making sure those enemies went away very quickly, and it paid off, so.. honestly that's kind of working as intended? Your player got the payoff they wanted for their investment and got to enjoy what was probably the reason they're playing a Warmage in the first place, so take it as a learning experience and make some adjustments for future encounters if you don't want him nova'ing some NPC faces off again.

[Zarrgon]

Yep. That.
We're in a phase with political city campaign, so for now most enemies are humanoids with PC levels rather than monsters.

Its bit easier with monsters, since they are much tankier as a rule, and also, if a party murderizes a bunch of monsters in one shot -- more power to them, its not, usually, as detrimental to the plot and anticlimactic as a loss of a named NPC.


To start with NPCs. If you have NPC Bob who is part of your plot....this is really simple....Do Not put Bob right in front of the PCs with a target that says "hit me". The vast majority of city NPCs should be non concomitants, even more so not PC combatants. They can still be enemies, they are just not standing in the street waiting for the PCs to kill them.

And as a typical NPC is not going to fight, they can put everything they have into escaping. There are plenty of spells, abilities and such that can be great for escaping an area. And right at the top of the list are potions.

*Note, just in case it does come up in your game: Note Wealth By Level "does not mean what most people think it means." WBL is ONLY for character creation. Make an NPC, go right ahead and follow WBL if you wish. Finish the character creation. Then wait about one second. Ok, the character is officially "old", so feel free to give them anything you want.

*Also note WBL does not make sense anyway. If you take something like a minor noble they own a mansion, six farms, two businesses in town and are part of two trade guilds. So if you were to add all that up, they would be "worth" like a LOT.....so it's silly to say "oh they can only afford one 5,000 gp item".

Your typical important NPC will also have body guards....and don't forget trained guard animals or even monsters. Dogs are very common guard animals, but lots of other creatures work too. And some templates, class levels, and feats can make the dogs interesting too.

Finally, for important NPCs keep in mind it's a good thing to do the Two Step: The Big Foe is Baron Von Doom, but the PCs mostly only directly interact with his Enforcer Lord Krum. So the PCs can kill the enforcer, but the big foe remains.

[Fizban]

Leaving aside the question of how many high level classed humanoid NPCs they're fighting (as standard city generation gives few)-

So we've got 9th level PCs, which means 9th+ level NPCs. 9th level NPC gear is 12,000 (this is also roughly triple standard, so actually looting them will smash party WBL fast). 12,000gp is plenty enough to do some tricks, particularly if you're willing to mine MiC for cheap power items and don't mind the PCs ending up with a pile of them.

Spellsink Scarab has been mentioned. There's also the Amulet of Tears which provides swift temporary hp, and the Enduring Amulet which provides immediate cold or fire resist, and the cheapest is Cloak of Elemental Protection with immediate 10 resist for the energy of your choice.

But more important is the NPC's spell support. Just as no party should reach high levels without casters, no NPC should reach high levels without casters. And if this was an NPC's sudden betrayal? That means they chose the timing, so they should have been prepared. Resist Energy (or the Mass version) and Protection from Energy last 10 min/level, and it only takes a couple casts to cover the most likely energy candidates: your Warmage used Blast of Flame, when they could have used any energy type. Or the spell Contingent Energy Resistance (SpC), which does what it sounds like (becoming the resistance of what hits you), and lasts an hour per level at only 4th for Clerics. Even just being pre-buffed with Aid (or Empowered Aid) is that much more one-shot protection. And while the Greater and Superior Resistance spells are dumb, if they're allowed in your game, they should have been active.

SR has been mentioned, which probably came from the Spell Resistance spell- a good idea, but as you've found out, the thing Warmages are good at (which char-op and "tier" lists ignore because of schrodenger's everything), is the fact that they have every energy and also non-energy spells and SoLs in both SR and no-SR in all slots at all times (an *actual* Schrodenger's offensive spell suite). And Black Tentacles will hit grapple, and Orb of Force requires Ray Deflection or Forceward, and. . . When the PC can strike with every possible attack vector, an NPC must be shielded on all of them to survive, and yeah it looks ridiculous having to empty an entire Cleric to counter a Warmage. Except that's actually pretty much exactly what should happen, one whole person to counter another.


Further you can have them hire spellcasting, for say, the Pact spells. Death Pact is actually a bad idea due to the con loss, but Renewal Pact is reasonably priced insurance against being SoL'd.

Fortunate Fate and Surelife (contingent Heal and "you just don't die because of X") are a bit high level and short of duration for this, but they raise an important question: how did the NPC think this was going to go? The PCs are known to be a threat, apparently enough of a threat that they must be betrayed. The PCs are also known, to anyone who pays attention, to have an *enormous* amount of personal magic items compared to any given NPC, including this one- as well as significantly more party cohesion. In short, any NPC who decides to attack the PCs should be prepared to burn a huge portion of their resources in order to do it- and should do so readily, because looting the PCs would multiply their total wealth by x4 or more.

Which means that if it is possible to buy consumables or hire high level casters for Fortunate Fate, Surelife, or anything else that will make sure they don't die and actually have a shot at winning, the NPCs should be doing it.

Of course, all these spell buffs can be hit with Dispel Magic. Except the party has a Warmage, not something with Dispel Magic, and hired effects from 13th level casters have a much lower chance of dispel from a 9th level one.

Finally, you can pull out the big guns: Divination. The Cleric spell. The NPCs cast Divination to figure out what protections to use in their upcoming attack, and then use the correct ones. There is no defense against Divination unless the DM declares that a god of equivalent or greater power is actively shielding you from the sight of the Divination caster's god. So the Warmage casts their first spell and it happens to hit the perfect counter. You'll want to do some pre-specification of spell slots used on defenses, but since almost all of them are Abjurations, even if the PCs scan the magic they won't be able to force a contradiction- and even if they had Analyze Dweomer, you'd only need to specify the spells, with the details (energy type chosen, etc) still being unknowable to the PCs before triggering, and thus fully in control of the NPC's use of Divination.

Will all of this seem unfair to the Warmage? Sure. Same as how melee characters find it unfair when they fight things that can grapple them with impossibly high bonuses or have DR that doesn't match their weapons, or SA based rogues have to fight undead or constructs (before the printing of "lol sneak attack everything" mechanics), or indeed how clerics might feel if the party fights a ton of status affliction monsters and all their slots have to go to status removal (though that's more of a "forced to spend literally all your time on your role" rather than "role invalidated").

NPCs are just as smart as PCs, they (should) know they're outmatched, and the only thing they have to even the odds is a willingness to spend money and prepare against an enemy that is not actively attacking them. Fighting dirty is exactly what they should do, and if the non-Warmages can be fought with their existing human resources (goons), that means all other resources will be pointed at the one danger that can make them lose instantly: the Warmage.

There seems to be a bit of a thing where people step on eggshells around caster players, like just because they have spell slots they're entitled to spells always working- probably because barely any low level monsters have magic defenses, and it zero-context char-op land everything works perfectly. Bogus. If the arcanist is getting too much spotlight, that means you need to hose them more, and there's tons of built in ways to do it- counterspelling is one of the least efficient, readied ranged attacks or magic are the default, magic immune monsters (and a DM who just says "no" to "lol we made all these spells non-magical") are another, monsters with other resistance and survival abilities yet more (oh they know about fire and acid for trolls, great pick one of the dozen other trolls that require other attacks), and perfectly prepared NPCs are the final line. Now, a Warmage's big thing is supposed to be that they can deal with a lot more of those than normal, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass on all of them. If the Warmage player didn't like getting counterspelled or damage-interrupted by an NPC, tough break. Learn to avoid getting counterspelled or shot next time, and accept that you don't get to be perfect always. If they don't like NPCs having buffs that stop them, they can wait until another party member dispels the buffs or use an item to fill the time.


As for the offense: aside from goons you can collapse a building on them, flood the area with heavy smoke, etc. Or if the lack of monsters is a problem, consider how often in other modules/media the bad guys just happen to have some monster on a leash that they sic on the party. Doesn't make any sense most of the time, still happens, and now you've got a proper monster in the fight.

[ChudoJogurt]

See, that's why I panicked initally -- I thought I had taken the reasonable precautions, and then found them horribly wanting.
One of the guys targeted by the blast had Evasion, and decent Ref Save, and Fire/Elecrticity Resistance 15 via Greater Crystals in shield and armor.
The other had Spellward Shirt at maximum 3 essence (giving SR 17) and Fire Resitance 10 via Cloak of Elements.
The third one was a Warblade with 80+HP, so quite tanky, at least by our measures.

But with one relatively lucky damage roll, and bad saves, the guys ended up with 5-10 hp or dead after the single spell.

Granted, I still had a few tricks up my sleeve, and in the end pulled out a fight, but that wasn't even the worst nova the player could do --- she usually also carries the Ring of Mystic Fire on top of her equip, but it was temporarily damaged due to a nasty trap in the previous dungeon.

Also, thank you, I did not know about the Forceward. That is an excellent spell, and I will remember using it in the future.


Finally, for important NPCs keep in mind it's a good thing to do the Two Step: The Big Foe is Baron Von Doom, but the PCs mostly only directly interact with his Enforcer Lord Krum. So the PCs can kill the enforcer, but the big foe remains.

Yes, this is terribly clever, but you still don't want them to kill him in one round. That's just anticlimactic

[tiercel]

I’m going to talk crazy.

0: Direct damage is often underrated. Especially when you can dial up damage types (or otherwise skirt resistance/immunity) on the fly.

More to the point, though... try talking with your player?

Seriously, you have a couple of issues here.

1: When a player plays a character which has some min/max going on, you have to take the min with the max. The player made a glass cannon character; that the character either unleashes devastation or folds like a cheap suit is part of the build design. Ideally optimization doesn’t go this far in either extreme — strong enough to be valuable to the team, but with weaknesses covered enough to also not be a huge potential liability.

Mechanically, you can offer an in-character way to help your player rebuild the character a bit (or even a lot), or even change characters, so that you don’t get such swingy outcomes. Minimally, offer to help change some of the offensive feat, equipment, etc. choices to defensive ones.

2: Your player is playing a Magic Energy Glass Cannon in your urban politics storyline. I mean, it’s not actually surprising you are getting bull-in-a-china-shop syndrome here. You may want to talk to your player about genre issues/fit here... and in a politics campaign, the way to deal with overwhelming mechanical offense isn’t better mechanics, it’s politics. At some point, overwhelming magic dakka will make the city turn on the PCs in hostility or even simple fear, and PCs will lose the ability to engage with political storylines. If nothing else the city will eventually turn to Summon Bigger Fish, not wait for vital NPCs and/or the guard force to get steamrolled, possibly with collateral damage.

If the character doesn’t fit (this aspect of) the campaign and is determined to use orbs and other direct damage to cut through the Gordian Knot of your politics, either the character needs to change (mechanically or in the way the story is engaged) or the campaign does (by illustrating just what happens when you provoke an entire regional government, for instance).

[ChudoJogurt]

I have definitely talked to the players.
They do not do that often, at least not where it would not be appropriate. In fact they were drawn into this combat by our party warlock, rather than initiated the "let's kill them all" plan by herself.
And as I said, we're mid-op, so there's no crazy min-maxing going on, it's just a fairly standard blaster warmage, which, as you've noted is rarely a problem because blasting damage is usually predictable and straightforward.

So this thing happened, and I admit, I panicked a little. And before I get back to my players with suggestions on what we can do (and if we should do anything), in order to ensure that I keep the challenges, well, challenging I wanted to draw on the wisdom of this forum for ideas.

There are some really useful ideas here, and, also, having explained what happened, I feel that this was more a combination of bad rule reading (inflating the damage a bit), above-average roll with some limited-use resources, and really bad saving throws on the part of the other party -- and it still wasin't a complete washout, so maybe it's not as much of a problem as I feared.

[Gruftzwerg]

You should also keep in mind that it is ok from time to time when a PC may shine and even faceroll a given encounter. Let em have their 5minutes of glory. It just becomes a problem if it becomes a regular basis that always the same PC overshadows the others.
So calm down and do what you are already doing: refining your DM strategy skills and hf with your group ;)

[el minster]

See, that's why I panicked initally -- I thought I had taken the reasonable precautions, and then found them horribly wanting.
One of the guys targeted by the blast had Evasion, and decent Ref Save, and Fire/Elecrticity Resistance 15 via Greater Crystals in shield and armor.
The other had Spellward Shirt at maximum 3 essence (giving SR 17) and Fire Resitance 10 via Cloak of Elements.
The third one was a Warblade with 80+HP, so quite tanky, at least by our measures.

But with one relatively lucky damage roll, and bad saves, the guys ended up with 5-10 hp or dead after the single spell.

Granted, I still had a few tricks up my sleeve, and in the end pulled out a fight, but that wasn't even the worst nova the player could do --- she usually also carries the Ring of Mystic Fire on top of her equip, but it was temporarily damaged due to a nasty trap in the previous dungeon.

Also, thank you, I did not know about the Forceward. That is an excellent spell, and I will remember using it in the future.

Remember since forceward has the Force descriptor it blocks itself.

[Zarrgon]

Yes, this is terribly clever, but you still don't want them to kill him in one round. That's just anticlimactic

Well, note D&D is a combat adventure game with a ton of Player Character Privilege. They will kill an average target in a round a lot of the time, even more so if they burn lots of resources.

Mechanically if you want a foe to live a couple rounds, you just need to build up their defenses. There are plenty of class abilities, feats and spells that can do that, plus magic items.

Again, potions, oils and exilers are really good here. Mage Armor, Barkskin, Shield of Faith, False Life, Resistance and so on.

Also, try a bit more "all day adventure". If the PCs have done nothing all day, then they are at full power and can really do lots of amazing things to an NPC target. Have the PCs bump into the NPC after 25 encounters....well, not so much.

[Fizban]

See, that's why I panicked initally -- I thought I had taken the reasonable precautions, and then found them horribly wanting.
One of the guys targeted by the blast had Evasion, and decent Ref Save, and Fire/Elecrticity Resistance 15 via Greater Crystals in shield and armor.
If you're willing to really, really burn down resources fast: Ghostwalk has the item Phaant's Luckstone, which lets you reroll a save. 1,00gp a pop, but a reroll is a reroll. Alternatively you could try fitting in some luck feats.

The other had Spellward Shirt at maximum 3 essence (giving SR 17) and Fire Resitance 10 via Cloak of Elements.
Oh Incarnate. Speaking of- Necrocarnum Circlet is an easy way to justify a super zombie of a monster that is now "part of the original CR" as a minion.

The third one was a Warblade with 80+HP, so quite tanky, at least by our measures.
No Action Before Thought? Or bad luck there too.

But with one relatively lucky damage roll, and bad saves, the guys ended up with 5-10 hp or dead after the single spell.
Yup. But with Empowered Aid, hired Renewal Pact*, and Contingent Energy Resistance, they could have blocked ~18+10 and recovered ~12, for a total of 30 points of ablative defense and 10 resist against further hits of that energy. Bringing the Warblade's effective hit points up to 120, much better for a "monster."

*Edit: well Renewal Pact technically never triggers on damage and takes a round to go off, but I doubt anyone remembers that until they check the exact text.

I also noticed Energy Buffer in good 'ol Tome and Blood- it's like a contingent Protection from Energy but only for 1 round and with d6's instead of 12s, but naturally it should soak most of a d6/level spell on its own.

And for more core stuff- a Cleric standing around the corner out of AoE range with Shield Other on the VIP is also an effective doubling of hit points.

An Amulet of Tears on full burn is worth 24 on its own if Empowered Aid seems like too much (not just a buff but a metamagicked one)- though again, you might not want the party having a pile of them. But there's a solution for that too, if you're willing to use it: if they aren't Good they can't use Ancestral Relic, but DMG2 does have Bonded Magic Items- which are actually a good justification for why a given NPC would have their perfect item anyway. Essentially it lets anyone craft a magic item by completing a task and spending the normal gp and xp, but the item only works for them. Even used un-creatively this could simply give every NPC an "Amulet of Tears" for 24-36 hit points, or "Ring of the Diamond Mind" for whatever save they need to not fail, etc. And because this item cannot be pillaged, sinking their wealth into it lets you fix the treasure reward without permanently consuming it all in potions and scrolls for a single battle, maintaining verisimilitude (though they should still be consuming some, as mentioned before).

I suppose I could also mention Crafted Contingent Spells, but that is a cheese hole you do not want to start down. You can as DM simply state that the feat is not available to PCs and no one will craft them for the PCs, but that also just reads as fiat, while involving stuff they can read in an otherwise presumably player-accessible book, making it look worse than fiat.

To be clear- when it comes to optimizing monsters, I'm against that (unless it's well demonstrated the party needs it). CRs are for the monster as written, and if it was well done then char-op'ing it just messes that up. But classed NPCs don't actually have a valid CR, so they must be "optimized" or hamstrung as necessary to match an actual monster of the desired CR. Some people will read a sudden pile of ridiculously custom and pre-buffed NPCs with "self-destructing" gear as unfair- but you could just do it with fiat without telling them instead. Either way it's just what needs to be done.

You could also lower the actual CR of the foes, or use higher level NPCs, or both. If the NPCs aren't actually a challenge, then don't give out as much xp and treasure from them. If it takes a higher level meatstick to be CR X, then use it- even lampshade in the fight that the strongest swordsman in the city did not sign up to take on a whole team including magicians and knows they're outmatched. If you're in a political portion, maybe it makes sense for their enemies to not actually stand a chance, or for the enemies that do match them to be far above their level and yet out of their depth fighting loaded adventurers.


Also, thank you, I did not know about the Forceward. That is an excellent spell, and I will remember using it in the future.
Eh, it's not that great, mostly there for completeness's sake. But being a stationary defensive zone, it brings up an oft-overlooked core spell: Globe of Invulnerability. The 4th level version blocks all 3rd level and lower spells, which against a 9th level warmage is nearly all of them (and the 6th level version blocks up to 4th of course). Of course, it could still run into people arguing that it can't suppress their non-magcal magic, but you know what I think of that by now.