Other character in group seems to be vastly optimised

[mehs]

So for reference im playing as a kineticist, It is a fixed kineticist that others have said is tier 2 or 3, but still kineticist. Other player in party is a dread necromancer with apparently a bunch of bard like "effective against oppesite sex (males)" modifiers. They are also using the secret college of necromancy book, which got all added so their spell list and such.

So they cast a spell, DM asked what the save was, they answered 30. A dc 30 will save. We are level 4. WTH. DM's reaction to me saying wth is "Eh, i've had players with dc 40 saves, it isn't anything I haven't seen before". Is this normal?

Spell effect was apparently "-2 on save, attack & Damage & Loses his dex to bonus; Taint of blood effect"

[Doctor Despair]

To be fair, unless there are specific penalties listed for large failures, failing by 25 on a save is the same as failing by 1, so I wouldn't feel too anxious if that's all they're doing. It only becomes an issue if the DM starts adjusting encounters up to them and leaves you unable to do anything; if the DM's going to shrug and just say "Sure, you have yes-level DCs," then you ought to be fine.

If this really bothers you, the only fix is to talk with your party about what they want out of the game. If they are dead-set on playing at this high-power level, then maybe they (or the Playground here ;) ) can help you adjust your character up. If you're repulsed by such high numbers, then maybe you can talk them into winding it back a bit.

[Segev]

There's something ... disturbing ... to me about a dread necromancer having "I'm too sexy" bonuses. c_c

My advice would be the same as the first response's: talk to the group about your concerns, and determine what the "expected value" stuff is. Then try to beef up your character to that level, if the DM is fine with these power levels.

[mehs]

She has a +6 on dc's against males.

[Maat Mons]

I'd normally consider a DC of 30 at 4th level to be really high. But your DM's allowing 3rd-party content, so this sort of thing is proabaly to be expected.

Just to be clear, are you using Kineticist, as in a Psion who chose psychokinesis as his specialized discipline? Or is this a generalized rework of the Pyrokineticist prestige class? Psion is already tier 2, no matter which discipline you go with. If it's a Pyrokineticist rework, yeah, that class needed some improvements.

[mehs]

Kineticist is a tier 5 borderline tier 6 pathfinder class.

Boss monster we are fighting is also making regular dc 30 fortitude and will saves. Currently, Im just ready action kinetic cover to interrupt whatever the boss monster does. So far, I have blocked 1 attack and 1 aoe cone ability.

[Bronk]

I've run into similar problems before, and it turned out they were somehow confusing 3.5 rules with 4.0 rules.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A DC 30 save on a dread necromancer at ECL 4 would be unusually high. That's a +18 bonus to save DCs at minimum, of which you'd expect at most ~6 to be from Charisma (18 base, +2 racial, +2 cloak of charisma--note that the cloak is within WBL, but a bigger item than expected). You can get a bit more from feats (Spell Focus, Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil), Heighten Spell + Eldritch Corruption), more unusual races (especially with LA buyoff), and possibly some of the "bonuses vs. males" (which might also be associated with higher Charisma), but +18 is a lot. I'm not sure how you'd get there with "standard" optimization.

There are two obvious ways such a high DC might've come about:
(1) Stupid rules from Secret College of Necromancy or homebrew (or stupid rules from core content like Tainted Scholar), or
(2) Lots of extra WBL, high-ECL races without LA, extra stats, and so on.

A distant third is "really high optimization", like "I bought double polymorph any object so my Charisma is 30 now". But that's less common than stupid homebrew, I think.


Edit: Since the bonus on saves vs. males is +6, I'm betting the other +6 is from a wonky half-succubus race (or succubus monster progression) with LA buyoff/DM fiat for a +10 racial Charisma, or something.

[mehs]

A DC 30 save on a dread necromancer at ECL 4 would be unusually high. That's a +18 bonus to save DCs at minimum, of which you'd expect at most ~6 to be from Charisma (18 base, +2 racial, +2 cloak of charisma--note that the cloak is within WBL, but a bigger item than expected). You can get a bit more from feats (Spell Focus, Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil), Heighten Spell + Eldritch Corruption), more unusual races (especially with LA buyoff), and possibly some of the "bonuses vs. males" (which might also be associated with higher Charisma), but +18 is a lot. I'm not sure how you'd get there with "standard" optimization.

There are two obvious ways such a high DC might've come about:
(1) Stupid rules from Secret College of Necromancy or homebrew (or stupid rules from core content like Tainted Scholar), or
(2) Lots of extra WBL, high-ECL races without LA, extra stats, and so on.

A distant third is "really high optimization", like "I bought double polymorph any object so my Charisma is 30 now". But that's less common than stupid homebrew, I think.


Edit: Since the bonus on saves vs. males is +6, I'm betting the other +6 is from a wonky half-succubus race (or succubus monster progression) with LA buyoff/DM fiat for a +10 racial Charisma, or something.

They apparently spent most of their wbl on a skeletal minion which I have previously complained about having absurd bonuses (though it turned out they were applying dex twice on attack and doing rend incorrectly)

We know that 6 of the dc is coming from "im too sexy" ability.

They also have a 20ft radius aura spell which is essentially stinking cloud minus the miss chance. It moves with caster and caster is immune. It is a second level spell or less.

[mehs]

General addendum question, How should I react to learning that a party member is power gaming to stupid levels like that? The GM pretty much dismissed it with "eh, they can't do their charm shenanigans against most non intelligent monsters", but this instance and previous ones freaked me out and I apparently didn't react correctly.

[Fizban]

They also have a 20ft radius aura spell which is essentially stinking cloud minus the miss chance. It moves with caster and caster is immune. It is a second level spell or less.
There are a number of spells that are basically Stinking Cloud but at a lower level with some drawback that barely matters- Cloud of Bewilderment is 2nd, and there's a more obscure 1st level version I can't remember the name of at the moment. But neither of those are auras nor have a 20' radius. There is no such spell that exists in 3.5- is this "Secret College of Necromancy" a 3rd party book? Is it possible they've made themselves something with a racial ability and conveniently forgot about the RHD and LA? Or they might be claiming Alter Self gives them Troglodyte stench, but that only sickens, and also the spell doesn't do that. And none of those spells should be accessible to a Dread Necro.


If this is a player with a recurring problem, their sheets should be audited regularly. Since the DM apparently doesn't care? Not much to do there except get the other players to join you in telling the DM you don't like it. You already reacted correctly by talking to the DM about it.

It is literally the DM's job to deal with this- in fact, they shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. So if they don't care that one of their players is rule "bending" and generally reducing the fun of the rest of the table, they shouldn't be DMing. If they won't fix it, you take the rest of the players and leave.

[Maat Mons]

I'm kind of confused by this boost to save DC. Does it actually increase the DC of all effects used against men? Because that seems really weird.

If I'm understanding the fluff correctly, it would have made more sense for it to only affect the DC of Enchantment effects. Or mind-affecting effects. Or, at most all Will saves. But the spell Taint the Blood has a Fortitude save.

Is she... like... charming the men's immune systems? ... And lulling their antibodies into a stupor?

[mehs]

the +6 DC is apparently to all of their abilities, as long as the thing could conceivably be sexually attracted to her which by default means intelligent and male, at this point im pretty sure it is a racial thing.

The stinking cloud thing they did is pretty much a strictly better version of stinking cloud with the slight nerf of no miss chance. Apparently at this point it isn't that they are cheating or anything, just that they got the gm to allow them a bunch of powerful 3rd party materials and are now just at a higher power level.

But yeah, at this point the question isn't how they are doing it, but what my response should be especially since the DM is just allowing it on the supposition that as a specialized character, the DM can just send in a monster that isn't intelligent or male. Though the problem that I have with that is that there isnt a corollary "-6 to dc on something that isn't male or intelligent". So if the DM sends in a monster they are 'weak' to, it isn't that they are suddenly at a disadvantage, it is that they just don't have the advantages they are used to.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I would bet money that they are some sort of nymph or succubus. Those would likely get a high cha boost, and the I2S ability could fit on either. I would ask and then check the material to see if anything would benefit yourself.

[Segev]

General addendum question, How should I react to learning that a party member is power gaming to stupid levels like that? The GM pretty much dismissed it with "eh, they can't do their charm shenanigans against most non intelligent monsters", but this instance and previous ones freaked me out and I apparently didn't react correctly.

If the DM is okay with it? Ask either your group or a board like this one for help optimizing you character to the point you can have fun at that table.

[Thunder999]

If the GM wants that sort of ridiculous power then you probably want to make your own stupidly OP character. Probably needs an new character entirely.

I guess one starting point is to buy a cast of polymorph any object for very high stats, remember to account for this when assigning your ability scores, charisma and wisdom are the only two you'll actually be using.

[Zaq]

I remember falling in love with Secret College of Necromancy when I was veeeeery first starting 3.5 and I didn't yet know how the game worked. I haven't looked at it in many years. I seem to recall it having some things of... questionable balance, though.

[Elysiume]

General addendum question, How should I react to learning that a party member is power gaming to stupid levels like that? The GM pretty much dismissed it with "eh, they can't do their charm shenanigans against most non intelligent monsters", but this instance and previous ones freaked me out and I apparently didn't react correctly.Is talking to the necromancer an option? Talking to the DM was a good first step but it sounds like that discussion didn't bear fruit. The +6 to DCs against intelligent male enemies (not getting into the non-mechanical problems with that ability) isn't the only discrepancy in their spell saves — a save DC of 24 at level 4 is also very high, just less ridiculously so. You could optimize past this level of homebrew depending on how cheesy you want to get, but I think it's pertinent to know whether the player just brought some unvetted jank homebrew to the table and the DM rubber stamped it.

In the end, you also need to decide if you want to play with this degree of optimization/homebrew. Based on a boss you're fighting at level 4 making "regular dc 30 fortitude and will saves," it seems like the necromancer is already warping the power level of the table. +10 to saves on a boss for a level 4 party isn't out of the question, but it sounds like they're making those saves regularly, indicating a bonus quite a bit higher than +10. Do you trust the DM to properly balance a game that's skewed so far from expected power levels?

[Zerryzerry]

How much experience has the DM in his position?
Looks like he has barely any, since he does not even intervene when there are such strange things going on.
A 30 DC for a 4th lvl PC is basically a cheat. Is the player perhaps the fabled class "DM's girlfriend"?

Even in official material there is enough badly written, balanced o otherwise badly designed things that make most spells, PRCs, and feats useless, going over the board and include a book which is neither official nor balanced, and giving players even special things like a "+6CD against males" just makes for a zero-fun game for every other player at the table.

Like other ppl has said, talk with the DM, but i can add another thing. Talk to the player of this PC and ask him to switch to a non-3rd party sourcebook char, with no "DM gifts" and bring him to a more manageable level.
If you decide to leave en-masse the table because nothing else works, just strap a Girdle of sex changing around the waist of the PC, and look at her bonuses vanish. Then ans the Dm to step down and get another DM asap.

PS: I hardly think the char is "optimised" like you said in the title. I just think it has recieved some "outside help" from the DM, like a non-standard, vastly overpowered power or item, if not both.
Well a 4th lvl char with a free gift of a +6 CHA item, a +5 book of Charisma, a couple of Permanent spells, and the ignoring of the "same bonuses do not stack" rule for Charisma can get there. But with a wealth of a lvl 16/18 PC on itself AND a bit of rulebreaking.

[Quertus]

1 - balance to the table.

Balance is a range, not a point. That range can be as big as you want (I happen to prefer the Not!Thor to Sentient Potted Plant range, personally). However, if anyone feels that your group's range is too big for their comfort - you are tired of not being able to participate, the Necromancer is tired of carrying your noob build, or any other player (including the GM) has issue with it, it's time to sit down and adjust one or more characters until everyone is within a comfortable range.

Your GM has clearly sided with "stronger is better", with both "Eh, i've had players with dc 40 saves" and "Boss monster we are fighting is also making regular dc 30 fortitude and will saves.", so expect you'll have to buff your character to the nines.

2 - if the player's math is suspect (I feel you said he had to be corrected repeatedly, but I may be thinking of another thread), then someone (probably you) should become an expert on their character.

3 - ", How should I react to learning that a party member is power gaming to stupid levels like that? "

Well, for starters, by realizing that he is equally justified in wondering how to react to a party member who is a build-impaired noob / "the load"

… is what I would like to say. Really, this guy's character seems a little crazy even by my standards.

However, they seem *weak* by the GM's standards. This sounds like "the group" is expecting more from you.

So, how should you respond? By stepping up to their higher bar.

-----

EDIT: I've made the "Save DC 'you fail'" character before. However, the table wasn't this high-op, so my spells were things like Doom, and "Magic Missile, but requires an attack roll, only does 1 damage per missile, allows a save to prevent ongoing damage… as a second level spell".

[Segev]

As a thought experiment, a 4th level character could have started with a 20 Charisma (the Dread Necromancer's casting stat) by rolling/buying an 18 and having a race that grants +2 Cha. Casting a 2nd level spell, that's a base save DC of 17 (2 from spell level, +5 from Charisma modifier). If they have eagle's splendor up, that's another +2 to the DC (for a total of 19). With the +6 vs. intelligent males, that gets us to DC 25, so we're only 5 shy already of the DC 30.

Does she have a passel of undead urchins that follow her about?

If she was casting a Necromancy spell and has the Heighten Spell feat, she could have had 5 Slaymates giving her up to 5 free levels of metamagic, and used Heighten x5 for the last 5 DC points.

She may have Spell Focus: Necromancy for +1 DC, and the Secret College might have additional bonuses to spell DCs, either for Necromancy in general or for specific subcategories (e.g. [fear] effects).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regardless of how they're doing it, the encounters are being balanced against that character and possibly others, rather than yours. You need to bring your character up to their level, not the other way around.

[Quertus]

Regardless of how they're doing it, the encounters are being balanced against that character and possibly others, rather than yours. You need to bring your character up to their level, not the other way around.

This much more concisely states the core of the concept I endeavored to express in my post. Kudos!

I would only add that, should the player's build be not only suspect, but likely to get nerfed by a reality check, you may want to know that *before* you aim for the wrong target.

Or you could just aim for that "DC 40" target, and call it a day. :smallbiggrin:

[Zerryzerry]

This much more concisely states the core of the concept I endeavored to express in my post. Kudos!

I would only add that, should the player's build be not only suspect, but likely to get nerfed by a reality check, you may want to know that *before* you aim for the wrong target.

Or you could just aim for that "DC 40" target, and call it a day. :smallbiggrin:

I hardly doubt he can worm his char to the same power level, just because that level of power should not exist.

How many players you have in your group? How many chars have that level of power ath the same char level?

if the answer is "we have more people then just me and him/her, and only that character is so strong" i keep my idea of that player either not playing by the rules or the DM playing toghether with him/her to overempower that char.

[Kurald Galain]

As a thought experiment, a 4th level character could have started with a 20 Charisma (the Dread Necromancer's casting stat) by rolling/buying an 18 and having a race that grants +2 Cha. Casting a 2nd level spell, that's a base save DC of 17 (2 from spell level, +5 from Charisma modifier). If they have eagle's splendor up, that's another +2 to the DC (for a total of 19). With the +6 vs. intelligent males, that gets us to DC 25, so we're only 5 shy already of the DC 30.
Yeah, but given its duration they won't normally have Eagle Splendor up; and that +6 vs males is quite absurd by itself. Realistically, the expected DC at level four is in the 15-20 range; definitely not 30.


So for reference im playing as a kineticist, It is a fixed kineticist that others have said is tier 2 or 3
Is that the one we discussed last week? Because that is decidedly not tier 2 or 3; and readying an action to make a bit of cover pales in comparison to throwing around DC 30 effects from a permanent stinking cloud.

With such absurd bonuses as the necro is getting, this isn't really about tiers any more, but about brute-forcing the system. You should be asking your GM, since necro guy gets +10 to his DC, how about you get +30 to all your damage rolls?

[Asmotherion]

She has a +6 on dc's against males.

Ok... What's the source of the bonus though? Some feat?

I've had characters who could boost their saves to around +80, but never before level 7. Sounds strange to me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your DM is allowing 3rd party stuff, so just make up something that will make your character way better, and put it on dandwiki or something. Or if you want to put extra effort into it, make a fake 3rd party book as a PDF, with cover art and everything.

For example, make a series of one-hour rituals that you can do for either 10xp or 100gp in material components each (your choice), and each one permanently upgrades one of your Kineticist abilities. The first half of that is spent communing with the elements to learn how to improve your ability, the second half is actually spent doing it, so learning them isn't a roadblock. Say the Kinetic Blast upgrade ritual makes it fire one shot per Kineticist level, it ignores miss chance and penalties from firing into melee, no longer requires line of sight or line of effect, they can be directed at the same target or multiple targets within range, multiple shots against the same target add +10 DC and to hit per shot beyond the first for every shot on that target, every target hit is affected by the infusion for each time they're hit by it, and the range is upgraded to 100 ft. per Kineticist level. Say the Kinetic Cover upgrade makes it able to be used as an immediate action, it creates one per Kineticist level, and it's as indestructible as a wall of force and immune to dispelling. The Entangling Infusion upgrade makes it paralyze the target as well, makes it deal your kinetic blast damage to them again every round while it lasts, it prevents them from breathing so they start suffocating and can't cast spells with verbal components, it ignores freedom of movement and similar effects, it's immune to dispelling, it moves with them if they teleport, it lasts until they're broken out of it, adds +10 DC per application if you hit them with it multiple times, and if anyone tries to break them out and fails they're also affected by it. You should get the idea by now.

Make up another ritual that allows you to learn new invocations, even if they're for a different element or higher level than you would be able to learn. That ritual also takes an hour and teaches itself to you as you do it, it costs either 10 xp or 100 gp (your choice) per level of the invocation you're learning, or double that if it's not universal or for your chosen element. So spend a few days and learn all the things, and also permanently upgrade them in completely broken ways.

Edit: The idea behind this is not exactly to break the game, it's more to get the DM to reconsider allowing 3rd party content at all.

[Vizzerdrix]

As a thought experiment, a 4th level character could have started with a 20 Charisma (the Dread Necromancer's casting stat) by rolling/buying an 18 and having a race that grants +2 Cha. Casting a 2nd level spell, that's a base save DC of 17 (2 from spell level, +5 from Charisma modifier). If they have eagle's splendor up, that's another +2 to the DC (for a total of 19). With the +6 vs. intelligent males, that gets us to DC 25, so we're only 5 shy already of the DC 30.

Does she have a passel of undead urchins that follow her about?

If she was casting a Necromancy spell and has the Heighten Spell feat, she could have had 5 Slaymates giving her up to 5 free levels of metamagic, and used Heighten x5 for the last 5 DC points.

She may have Spell Focus: Necromancy for +1 DC, and the Secret College might have additional bonuses to spell DCs, either for Necromancy in general or for specific subcategories (e.g. [fear] effects).

She may also have the spark template, for -2 wis/+2 cha, or be using taint to cast.