scroll crafting questions. cooperative, slas, material components, imbue item

[newguydude1]

so if a wizard wants to scribe a scroll of simulacrum, its straightforward.
be cl 13+
know simulacrum
provide spell material components
provide spell xp
provide scroll crafting materials and xp.

but the rules get confusing when i use this

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.
and this

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

scenario1: wizard scribes a scroll of simulacrum with a mirror mephit providing the spell
qa1: what is the minimum cl required to scribe the scroll?
minimum cl for simulacrum for wizards is 13.
mirror mephits cl for casting simulacrum is 8
does the wizard create a wizard scroll of simulacrum so he still needs to be cl 13?
does the wizard create a scroll of a sla? so cl 8?
what is the required cl for the wizard to scribe a scroll of simulacrum when cooperative crafting with a mirror mephit?

qa2: does the wizard need to provide spell material and xp components?
mirror mephts simulacrum requires no components.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not.
casting the spell would not reduce the caster's xp.

qa3:does the above quote mean eschew materials let me ignore noncostly material components of scrolls? because casting the spell doesnt consume material components for me.

scenario2: wizard scribes a scroll of simulacrum with a staff providing the spell
qb1:does the wizard need to provide spell material and xp components? they are already paid for by the staff creation.



warlocks imbue item is confusing as hell.


Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.

If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete the item. He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new level.

you dont cast spells during item creation. it just gets triggered.
qc1: does the warlock have to do the umd everyday?
qc2: if he fakes casting the required spell, then he doesnt need to actually have xp and material components. so does this mean he can scribe scrolls of wishes for free?

my table is raw or die. no homebrew no house rule. so i am interested in how these things work under raw.

[Duke of Urrel]

I think if we stick to the Rules As Written and ONLY the Rules As Written, we can say that two or more creatures who collaborate to create the same magic item may divide up the item's prerequisites in ANY way they choose.

Normally, when you cast the Simulacrum spell, you must expend 100 XP for every Hit Die of the shadow creature you want to create. You also need some scrap of hair or a toenail from the creature that you want to copy, and you cast the spell on a heap of snow. If you employ a mirror mephit to use its spell-like ability to contribute the Simulacrum spell as a prerequisite for your Simulacrum scroll, you don't have to worry about ANY of this, because a spell-like ability has no material component or experience point cost. The quality of the simulacrum will still depend upon the mirror mephit's Disguise skill and perhaps its familiarity with the creature that you want to copy. Consult your dungeon master.

But even if you employ a mirror mephit to provide the Simulacrum spell, you still have to contribute the other things that the scroll scribing process still requires, unless the mirror mephit provides these things, too, and it's up to the dungeon master to decide whether it agrees to do that. These other things include:

the Scribe Scroll feat
the caster level of 13 (and if the mirror mephit doesn't have a caster level of 13, then it can't contribute this)
raw materials worth 1,135.50 gold pieces (that is, CL 13 times SL 7 times 25 gold pieces divided by 2)
91 experience points (that is, 13 times 7 times 25 divided by 25).
two days of work (that is, 13 times 7 times 25 divided by 1,000).

The Eschew Materials feat doesn't allow you to omit COSTLY materials from spellcasting, but only those materials that have NO cost given. Using this feat is different from using a spell-like ability, which never has any material component, or using a magic staff, whose material components were already consumed when the staff was created.

Finally, as a warlock, you CANNOT create magic items for free. You can only use your incantation power as a substitute for a spell when you create a magic item. You still need to have all the other prerequisites, as usual, and you must sacrifice the same amount of wealth, XPs, and time as usual.

The following text IS a little confusing.


If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete the item. He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new level.

You have to read the last two sentences as being connected. IF you try to create a magic item as a warlock AND YOU FAIL, then you don't expend any XPs and you don't lose any raw materials. But if you SUCCEED, you have to expend XPs and use up raw material, as usual.

[newguydude1]

Normally, when you cast the Simulacrum spell, you must expend 100 XP for every Hit Die of the shadow creature you want to create. You also need some scrap of hair or a toenail from the creature that you want to copy, and you cast the spell on a heap of snow. If you employ a mirror mephit to use its spell-like ability to contribute the Simulacrum spell as a prerequisite for your Simulacrum scroll, you don't have to worry about ANY of this, because a spell-like ability has no material component or experience point cost. The quality of the simulacrum will still depend upon the mirror mephit's Disguise skill and perhaps its familiarity with the creature that you want to copy. Consult your dungeon master.

just to be clear. your saying a level 20 wizard who creates a cl20 scroll of simulacrum with the help of a mirror mephit does not need to pay 2000xp, 2000gp, or provide a toenail?


You have to read the last two sentences as being connected. IF you try to create a magic item as a warlock AND YOU FAIL, then you don't expend any XPs and you don't lose any raw materials. But if you SUCCEED, you have to expend XPs and use up raw material, as usual.

just to be clear. your saying a 17th level warlock making a scroll of wish does not need to pay 5000xp?

[Gruftzwerg]

scenario1: wizard scribes a scroll of simulacrum with a mirror mephit providing the spell
qa1: what is the minimum cl required to scribe the scroll?
minimum cl for simulacrum for wizards is 13.
mirror mephits cl for casting simulacrum is 8
does the wizard create a wizard scroll of simulacrum so he still needs to be cl 13?
does the wizard create a scroll of a sla? so cl 8?
what is the required cl for the wizard to scribe a scroll of simulacrum when cooperative crafting with a mirror mephit?
Since the mirror mephit is casting the required spell, his clvl sets the items clvl. This is the same as when people abuse special PRC spellprogression to get certain spells ceaper or that otherwhise wouldn't fit on e.g. a wand (due to spell lvl restriction).
Scribe Scroll only requires a clvl of 1 (for the feat) and that someone provides the wanted spell.
Futher the caster of the spell can adjust the clvl within his capabilities: minimum clvl is the minimum lvl at which he could cast the spell, up to his max clvl. This means the mirror mephit is setting the clvl (8).



qa2: does the wizard need to provide spell material and xp components?
mirror mephts simulacrum requires no components.

casting the spell would not reduce the caster's xp.
the mirror mephits simularum doesn't expend any resources, thus you only have to care about the regular crafting resources (regular xp/g for scribe scroll) to care.



qa3:does the above quote mean eschew materials let me ignore noncostly material components of scrolls? because casting the spell doesnt consume material components for me.
1: If you rely on the feat description, you don't need it at all
2. If you rely on the dmg description, it's clear that the spell consumed in the crafting progress is being cast (triggered) and thus any rules that would apply to normal casting (in our chase eschew materials) would apply.



scenario2: wizard scribes a scroll of simulacrum with a staff providing the spell
qb1:does the wizard need to provide spell material and xp components? they are already paid for by the staff creation.
as above, the item providing the spell doesn't need to expend extra resources to get the desired spell effect for the crafting progress.




warlocks imbue item is confusing as hell.



you dont cast spells during item creation. it just gets triggered.
qc1: does the warlock have to do the umd everyday?
qc2: if he fakes casting the required spell, then he doesnt need to actually have xp and material components. so does this mean he can scribe scrolls of wishes for free?

"Triggered" only means that it is condition based casting, but still casting. As soon as the conditions are met, the spell is being triggered and thus cast.
Imbue Item (II) lets the warlock count "as if he had cast the required spell", another indicator that the spell is still being cast in the crafting progress. Providing material components for a spell is part of the process of "casting a spell". So, when a warlock fakes a spell being cast, he also fakes any required resources of that process. The text of II implies that you only care about the normal crafting cost.
This is one of the loopholes to get free wish. If your DM will be happy about this, is still questionable


my table is raw or die. no homebrew no house rule. so i am interested in how these things work under raw.
Sorry but that is BS imho. Try this and see how RAW your DM is:
1. Carry a bucket of water always with you for emergencies
2. Wait for a teammate to drop below 0HP
3. Stick his head immediately into the bucket of water!
4. Since your buddy is unconscious he will automatically fail his check to hold his breath
5. In the next round he will start to drown (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning)and be set to "0 HP" (!!!), now's the time to pull his head back out of the water.

Healing by drowning is 100% RAW and no errata has been released iirc.
have fun with your RAW-DM ;)

[gogogome]

Since the mirror mephit is casting the required spell, his clvl sets the items clvl.

This is not RAW. The rules say any of the participants can provide any of the requirements. The sole exception is that the crafter who provides the feat must also provide the XP. There is nothing prohibiting the wizard from providing the caster level.


This is the same as when people abuse special PRC spellprogression to get certain spells ceaper or that otherwhise wouldn't fit on e.g. a wand (due to spell lvl restriction).

PrC spell list abuse and cooperative crafting are unrelated. Artificers don't invoke cooperative crafting rules when they cheese early access to powerful spells.

[magicalmagicman]

I think the minimum cl would be 8.

If a Divine Crusader was helping the wizard the minimum cl would be 8, so why would a mirror mephit be any different? You are creating a scroll of a spell that you can cast. That's why sorcerer scrolls have a minimum cl of 14. And if your making a scroll of a spell someone else can cast, then you can use their stats.

[Gruftzwerg]

This is not RAW. The rules say any of the participants can provide any of the requirements. The sole exception is that the crafter who provides the feat must also provide the XP. There is nothing prohibiting the wizard from providing the caster level.
If the wizard is capable of providing clvl for the required spell sure, but in our chase he doesn't have the ability to provide the clvl, cause he doesn't know the spell and it is out of his lvl progression. The mirror mephit is the sole one (in our example) that can legally provide clvl for the requiring spell.





PrC spell list abuse and cooperative crafting are unrelated. Artificers don't invoke cooperative crafting rules when they cheese early access to powerful spells.
It was to show that the source of the cast determines the spell-lvl-range of the item (minimum is the min lvl the spell could be cast, maximum is the actual clvl of the caster of the spell.
And the wizard ain't casting in our chase has no clue about the casting process of a clvl 8 Simulacrum.



I think the minimum cl would be 8.

If a Divine Crusader was helping the wizard the minimum cl would be 8, so why would a mirror mephit be any different? You are creating a scroll of a spell that you can cast. That's why sorcerer scrolls have a minimum cl of 14. And if your making a scroll of a spell someone else can cast, then you can use their stats.

^this. ^^

[Duke of Urrel]

just to be clear. your saying a level 20 wizard who creates a cl20 scroll of simulacrum with the help of a mirror mephit does not need to pay 2000xp, 2000gp, or provide a toenail?

Yes.

The wizard doesn't have to provide these things if the mirror mephit agrees to provide the Simulacrum spell as a spell-like ability.


just to be clear. your saying a 17th level warlock making a scroll of wish does not need to pay 5000xp?

Yes.

The warlock has to make a Use Magic Device check but does not have to expend 5,000 XPs. However, a Wish scroll still has a caster level of 17 and a spell level of 9, so it still costs 17 x 9 x 25 / 2 gold pieces (1,912.50 gp) in raw materials and 17 x 9 experience points (153 XPs) to create, even for a warlock, and the warlock needs to have the Scribe Scroll feat.

[newguydude1]

ok thanks everyone! you all been really, really, really helpful! especially since everyone has the same answer. which means theres no way to interpret it any other way.