Sorcerers Vs. Wizards

[ShayRob007]

Choosing between the Sorcerer or the Wizard depends more on the player's personality than anything else. The Wizard is the more studious, and arguably most delicate of the two, however, they are not as magically limited as the Sorcerer. What are your thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Depends on soo much. What are the goals? Concept influences this a lot. Sorcerer is often much better for realising "master of X"-type concepts (due to metamagic), while anything related to schools of magic tends to go to Wizards. Sorcerer is innately pretty gishy with Twin BB/GFB (Quickens too), Wizard is more varied.

Wizard has much more raw power for most levels with access to specific stupid spells and the ability to switch spells while Sorc is painfully limited in spells known to the point that most rounded setups are simply not doable.

It's just two classes that differ on a lot of things. Everything depends especially on what the player is looking for; class comboes, power, certain concept, etc.

[heavyfuel]

I'd only choose Sorcerer over Wizard or Bard if I really wanted Metamagic for my build concept. For example, a sneaky sourcerer with Subtle Spell over a sneaky Wizard and a sneaky Bard.

Otherwise I'd always go Wizard or Bard.

[HolyDraconus]

I've met many players that had nonbookworm wizards. With a 20 in cha to boot. Wizard over sorc. Bard over both.

[Temperjoke]

Sorcerers are superpowered mutants, Wizards are bookworms who studied a lot.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'd choose sorcerer if I was multiclassing. Simply because I like multiclassing them with bard and Paladin.
However, if only doing single class, then hands down wizard.

[Asisreo1]

Sorcerer vs Wizard depends on system mastery. Wizards are specifically easy to use since they're allowed to build haphazardly and stumble upon a good spell combo or something. They are still just as inflexible with their spellslots as any other spellcaster.

Sorcerers rely on you knowing what you're doing and understand the fact that you're a sorcerer, not a wizard. Your font of magic is one of your most powerful yet most underrated abilities. You can cast the most spells in a day as a fullcaster, and the most 5th level spells as well. You have to be aware of both your surroundings and how to use your spells, though. Metamagic is okay, it's not overrated but it does steal the spotlight that should be shared with font of magic.

I choose sorcerers more often and surprise the party with how resourceful I can be as a spellcaster with psuedo-spellpoints.

[RSP]

You can cast the most spells in a day as a fullcaster, and the most 5th level spells as well.

This just is untrue. Wizards and Druids can each cast at least as much as a Sorc (spell points=Arcane Recovery in terms of slots).

This becomes A LOT more if you factor in a Wizard’s Rituals or that every use of metamagic reduces how many spells a Sorc can cast.

[Asisreo1]

This just is untrue. Wizards and Druids can each cast at least as much as a Sorc (spell points=Arcane Recovery in terms of slots).

This becomes A LOT more if you factor in a Wizard’s Rituals or that every use of metamagic reduces how many spells a Sorc can cast.
I'm talking pure spells castable. Regardless of spell level. A sorcerer can cast 55 spells per Long Rest. It's a super extreme example, but it showcases what's possible.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I'd only choose Sorcerer over Wizard or Bard if I really wanted Metamagic for my build concept. For example, a sneaky sourcerer with Subtle Spell over a sneaky Wizard and a sneaky Bard.

Otherwise I'd always go Wizard or Bard.

Although they're both Cha-based casters, I wouldn't really compare Bards and Sorcerers, unless you're looking specifically to build a full caster who basically only uses enchantment/illusion and support/debuffs. Even as a Lore Bard, there's plenty of Sorcerer concepts you can't replicate due to a limited spell list.


I'm talking pure spells castable. Regardless of spell level. A sorcerer can cast 55 spells per Long Rest. It's a super extreme example, but it showcases what's possible.

Point of information: if you're looking at 20th level, and you don't care about spell level, a Wizard can cast 9,600 non-cantrips per Long Rest (16 hours = 9,600 turns), due to their 18th level ability, Spell Mastery. Even with that aside, a 20th-level Diviner can cast 166 leveled spells per Long Rest, before taking Arcane Recovery or their Signature Spells into account. It's better to look at quantity of 5th+ level spells as your metric, in which case Sorcerers do come ahead.

As to OP: I'd agree that for me personally I look at playing a Sorcerer vs. a Wizard is more stylistic terms, rather than mechanical, which I think is what you were going for. With that said, there's certain concepts that are easier to pull off as a Sorcerer (dedicated buffer, stealth/face, etc.), and others that are much, much harder (generalist, minionmancer, etc.).

[Drascin]

My general experience is that I don't think I've ever had a player that went for Sorcerer over Wizard for a reason that wasn't just "I don't want to have to think about preparing spells every time". Whenever actual mechanics came into thought, they seem to always end up going "fine, I'll just play a wizard".

[Asisreo1]

Point of information: if you're looking at 20th level, and you don't care about spell level, a Wizard can cast 9,600 non-cantrips per Long Rest (16 hours = 9,600 turns), due to their 18th level ability, Spell Mastery. Even with that aside, a 20th-level Diviner can cast 166 leveled spells per Long Rest, before taking Arcane Recovery or their Signature Spells into account. It's better to look at quantity of 5th+ level spells as your metric, in which case Sorcerers do come ahead.

A sorcerer can cast 55 1st-level+ spells. Not talking cantrips, which sorcerers get more of anyways.

[Aelyn]

A sorcerer can cast 55 1st-level+ spells. Not talking cantrips, which sorcerers get more of anyways.
A level 20 Sorcerer can convert all their level 3+ spells into Sorcery Points and then convert them back into more lower-level spells, giving them a total of 55 spells per Long Rest (with them all being level 1 or 2 spells).

At the same level, Wizards can cast specific 1st and 2nd level spells without spending spell slots. So a level 18 wizard can in fact cast 9,600 level 1+ spells every 24 hours and still have 8 hours left for a long rest. And they still get to use their level 3+ spells in the process.

I'm not saying that Sorcerers don't get more casting than Wizards throughout most of the game (I haven't checked one way or the other), I'm just pointing out that the level 18+ comparison is not a point in the Sorcerer's favour.

[Asisreo1]

At high levels, Wizards can cast leveled spells without spending spell slots. So a level 18 wizard can in fact cast 9,600 level 1+ spells every 24 hours and still have 8 hours left for a long rest.
A sorcerer also gets SP back on a SR so they could cast quite a large number of spells like that as well. The point, though, is that they can cast 55+ different 1st-levels spells in a day or 16 5th-level spells or any gradient in between this, without accounting for sorcerous recovery. If a wizard wants to cast a different 1st-level spell more than 4 times, they'll need to take 8 hours to change.

[RSP]

A sorcerer can cast 55 1st-level+ spells. Not talking cantrips, which sorcerers get more of anyways.

If your trying to say Sorcerers can use Flexible Casting to cast lots of 1st level spell. Great. Except that’s not really all that effective at 20th level. And, as has been pointed out, Wizards can cast at will a 1st and 2nd level spell at level 18.

Sorcerers don’t really have a leg up on Wizards outside of extreme Nova situations, in which case they can cast an extra Cantrip a turn; twinning Concentration (meh, in my book); or Subtle.

Wizards beat Sorcs in terms of effectiveness hands down. Even Twin Spell and Quicken get trumped by a Wizard with Simulacrum, which, in essence, can better either. The Wizard Simulacrum combo can cast two non-cantrips per round, and can concentrate on two different spells.

[Aelyn]

A sorcerer also gets SP back on a SR so they could cast quite a large number of spells like that as well. The point, though, is that they can cast 55+ different 1st-levels spells in a day or 16 5th-level spells or any gradient in between this, without accounting for sorcerous recovery. If a wizard wants to cast a different 1st-level spell more than 4 times, they'll need to take 8 hours to change.

Okay, now you're moving the goalposts slightly by requiring that the spells cast be different. But I'm afraid you're still wrong.

Even if your criteria is "widest possible range of 1st level spells", then a Sorcerer can cast 15 different spells at level 20, because that's how many spells they know.

A wizard at the same level can realistically prepare 25 spells (wizard level plus INT modifier, and the vast majority of L20 wizard will have maxed out their Intelligence) plus their two Signature Spells, and can therefore cast 27 different spells per Long Rest.

So whether it's "most spells total" or "widest variety of spells", a level 20 wizard beats a level 20 sorcerer.

Again, I'm not saying that your point about the flexibility isn't valid; just pointing out that the specific examples you're using actually go against the argument you're trying to make.

[Asisreo1]

So whether it's "most spells total" or "widest variety of spells", a level 20 wizard beats a level 20 sorcerer.

Again, I'm not saying that your point about the flexibility isn't valid; just pointing out that the specific examples you're using actually go against the argument you're trying to make.
It's not "How many different spells a sorcerer can cast." It's "how many times a sorcerer can cast spells that are different in a day." Wizards have more variety and 1 at-will spell. Sorcerers have less variety but can cast shield and magic missile intermittently about 55 times a day.

The point is that Font of Magic is effective at level 20, still. People probably limit themselves unnecessarily by not capitalizing on it.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Sorcerer.

I rarely find myself actually using more than the 15 spells known, and there's reasonable odds it wouldn't have been prepared in the first place [particularly given that I, like most people I know, basically never change preparation].

Sorcerer has metamagic and casts on CHA. Metamagic means I can support better, so each of my spell slots expended is individually more effective, I can use sorcery points to generate new spell slots if I need specific spells, and the manifest advantages of being a CHA caster over an INT caster mechanically need no further explanation.

Thus, I almost always play sorcerer for casters.

[Asisreo1]

If your trying to say Sorcerers can use Flexible Casting to cast lots of 1st level spell. Great. Except that’s not really all that effective at 20th level. And, as has been pointed out, Wizards can cast at will a 1st and 2nd level spell at level 18.

A sorcerer's flexible casting is most effective at level 20, because they don't have to limit themselves to follow the structure of how a spellcaster normally works. Let's say a sorcerer has need to use spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Clairvoyance, 2 counterspells, Haste, fly, and Protection from Energy over the course of an adventuring day. Well, a wizard wouldn't quite be able to do so without using a 4+ level slot. A sorcerer can transmute their lower level spellslots to higher level spellslots. Which is probably the most important uses.

For additional context, a sorcerer doesn't have to sacrifice their metamagic ability to cast a higher level spell, they can purely take their lower level spells and convert them to higher level spells. 4th and 5th level spells are still quite relevant at level 20, you get things like Animate Objects, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, and Polymorph. You can use them alot less reserved than a wizard, since you can adjust and shuffle your spellslots.

[Aelyn]

It's not "How many different spells a sorcerer can cast." It's "how many times a sorcerer can cast spells that are different in a day." Wizards have more variety and 1 at-will spell. Sorcerers have less variety but can cast shield and magic missile intermittently about 55 times a day.

The point is that Font of Magic is effective at level 20, still. People probably limit themselves unnecessarily by not capitalizing on it.

And now you're making moving the goalposts again.

Now it's not "total number of level 1+ spells" (which was your first stated criteria) nor "number of different level 1+ spells" (your second stated criteria).

Now it's "total number of level 1+ spells while having the ability to use at least three different spells for all of those slots" (not quite the third stated criteria, but I've chosen to pre-empt your response to the fact that at level 20 wizards still have two different spells they can spam indefinitely - they get a level 1 spell and a level 2 spell that they can cast without slots).

So... yeah. Using the very specific criteria that you have defined in such a way to ensure the Sorcerer wins, the Sorcerer wins. Congratulations I guess.

I'm actually intrigued now to see which of Wizards and Sorcerers can cast the most spells in practice, taking into account class features but not subclass features, feats, racial traits etc (as that would require me to check way too many different sources).

I'm thinking that the best way to see how it works in practice is to compare three different approaches:

Wizards using their class features.
Sorcerers converting Spell Points into spells but not converting spells into Spell Points.
Sorcerers converting Spell Points into spells and converting spells into Spell Points.

I'll look at those three models against two primary goals:

Maxing out the number of level 1+ spells castable in an adventuring day.
Maxing out the number of high level spells (defined as the lower of level 5 spells and the highest level of spell available to the character) castable in an adventuring day.

For clarity, for these purposes, I treat an adventuring day as including two short rests. I'll also be looking at characters across a range of different levels.

I'll be back later with the results.

[Asisreo1]

And now you're making moving the goalposts again.

Now it's not "total number of level 1+ spells" (which was your first stated criteria) nor "number of different level 1+ spells" (your second stated criteria).

Now it's "total number of level 1+ spells while having the ability to use at least three different spells for all of those slots" (not quite the third stated criteria, but I've chosen to pre-empt your response to the fact that at level 20 wizards still have two different spells they can spam indefinitely - they get a level 1 spell and a level 2 spell that they can cast without slots).

It's not changing goalposts or changing criteria, what I'm trying to do is show the unique capabilities of a sorcerer. It isn't about winning against a sorcerer or your argument.


So... yeah. Using the very specific criteria that you have defined in such a way to ensure the Sorcerer wins, the Sorcerer wins. Congratulations I guess.

I'm actually intrigued now to see which of Wizards and Sorcerers can cast the most spells in practice, taking into account class features but not subclass features, feats, racial traits etc (as that would require me to check way too many different sources).

I'm thinking that the best way to see how it works in practice is to compare three different approaches:

Wizards using their class features.
Sorcerers converting Spell Points into spells but not converting spells into Spell Points.
Sorcerers converting Spell Points into spells and converting spells into Spell Points.

I'll look at those three models against two primary goals:

Maxing out the number of level 1+ spells castable in an adventuring day.
Maxing out the number of high level spells (defined as the lower of level 5 spells and the highest level of spell available to the character) castable in an adventuring day.

For clarity, for these purposes, I treat an adventuring day as including two short rests. I'll also be looking at characters across a range of different levels.

I'll be back later with the results.
Sorcerers actually pull ahead mid-level and there's actually a shenanigan they can pull around level 7.

Sorcerers at level 2, when the wiz gets AR and they get FoM are able to cast exactly the same number and type of spells. The only difference is that a sorcerer needn't take a short rest to cast his 4th 1st-level spell. At 5th level, a sorcerer and wizard are roughly neck-and-neck, though a sorcerer can still cast more 3rd level spells by use of FoM.

6th level is where things get interesting. A sorcerer can actually create a spell slot of level 4 at this level, specifically about 4 4th-level slots. This makes a sorcerer plainly capable of casting beyond their limit. At 7th, the same thing happens with 5th-level spell slots.

At 8th level is when the shenanigan actually happens, although it starts at 7th-level. If your DM doesn't enforce level-up on LR (which isn't in the books but can be a DM preference), you can hold onto a 5th level spellslot. At level 8, since you have a 5th-level spellslot, you get to choose a 5th level spell. That's a 5th level spell earlier than any other caster.

A sorcerer stays ahead of the "casting per level" thing until level 18, where a wizard can now cast a 1st and 2nd level spell as cantrips. I could "move the goalpost" and have the metric be 3rd+ level spells castable but it's apparently a sore subject to list the sorcerer's benefits. A sorcerer eeks forward more at level 20 with their sorcerous origin but wizards still have more 1st-level spells castable in a day. A sorcerer can cast more 3rd-5th level spells in a day.

[heavyfuel]

Although they're both Cha-based casters, I wouldn't really compare Bards and Sorcerers, unless you're looking specifically to build a full caster who basically only uses enchantment/illusion and support/debuffs. Even as a Lore Bard, there's plenty of Sorcerer concepts you can't replicate due to a limited spell list.

That's what the Wizard is for.

[Aelyn]

It's not changing goalposts or changing criteria, what I'm trying to do is show the unique capabilities of a sorcerer. It isn't about winning against a sorcerer or your argument.

When you make an argument stated as an outright truth, and it is factually incorrect, you should not be surprised when people call you out on making a factually incorrect statement. You responded by changing the criteria you were using to make your point so that my counterpoint was no longer valid, which is more or less the definition of moving the goalposts.


I could "move the goalpost" and have the metric be 3rd+ level spells castable but it's apparently a sore subject to list the sorcerer's benefits.

I have no issue with you listing the Sorcerer's benefits - I have no particular preference between the two. What I had an issue was you basing your argument on a statement which was factually incorrect. I have tried to make it very clear in all of my posts that at no point was I saying that your overall point was invalid, just that the specific examples you were using factually did not show what you wanted them to show.

Based on the numbers I've crunched so far, I agree that Sorcerers can, if they choose to focus on number of spells of a given slot, outpace Wizards for most of their adventuring career. That comes at the cost of not using Metamagic (or barely using it) and losing out on all the other benefits Wizards have, such as ritual casting by default and the greater range of spells available at any given time. I think we're both agreed on that point.

For the record, I'm not entirely convinced by the spell slot shenanigans - I can see the RAW arguments but it doesn't feel like it's intentional. The plan to learn a 5th level spell at level 8 in particular feels like an exploit, and while I accept that by strict RAW there's nothing stopping it, I would fully accept the majority of DMs to step in at that point and say "No, sorry, I'm not going to allow that". So while it's technically a valid point, I think it's no more convincing an argument than it would be to say Wizards win at high levels because of Wish - Simulacrum shenanigans.

[Asisreo1]

When you make an argument stated as an outright truth, and it is factually incorrect, you should not be surprised when people call you out on making a factually incorrect statement. You responded by changing the criteria you were using to make your point so that my counterpoint was no longer valid, which is more or less the definition of moving the goalposts.

I'm correcting myself because I realized I was incorrect. My changing the perspective doesn't make your points invalid. You were right that wizards can purely cast more 1st+ level spells a day. So I adjust my claim that sorcerers can cast the most 3rd-level claim.


I have no issue with you listing the Sorcerer's benefits - I have no particular preference between the two. What I had an issue was you basing your argument on a statement which was factually incorrect. I have tried to make it very clear in all of my posts that at no point was I saying that your overall point was invalid, just that the specific examples you were using factually did not show what you wanted them to show.

Based on the numbers I've crunched so far, I agree that Sorcerers can, if they choose to focus on number of spells of a given slot, outpace Wizards for most of their adventuring career. That comes at the cost of not using Metamagic (or barely using it) and losing out on all the other benefits Wizards have, such as ritual casting by default and the greater range of spells available at any given time. I think we're both agreed on that point.

For the record, I'm not entirely convinced by the spell slot shenanigans - I can see the RAW arguments but it doesn't feel like it's intentional. The plan to learn a 5th level spell at level 8 in particular feels like an exploit, and while I accept that by strict RAW there's nothing stopping it, I would fully accept the majority of DMs to step in at that point and say "No, sorry, I'm not going to allow that". So while it's technically a valid point, I think it's no more convincing an argument than it would be to say Wizards win at high levels because of Wish - Simulacrum shenanigans.
I mean, you were correcting me. No hard feelings. If we're being technical, given an infinite lifespan, a sorcerer would also be able to abuse Simulacrum, though it would take much longer.

Metamagic is okay, but you won't actually feel the need to metamagic everything you do. I mean, quicken's a bit overrated since you only get an extra couple d10 damage to a single target unless you twin it, which you really can't according to SA. It's not horribly bad, at all, it's just a bit overrated IMO. It's probably better at higher levels. The best metamagic at high level would probably be Heighten, which makes Dominating creatures or so-on so much easier. As far as I know, it's extremely rare to grant disadvantage on a saving throw, especially a mental one. The fact that you can use it as you cast is extremely good. A good combo would be to heighten polymorph on a particularly tough enemy, then Nova on the polymorph. The spell will probably end, but the carryover damage won't be resisted/immune and they probably are going to fail whatever save you throw at them.

[Segev]

It's also worth considering that some of the sorcerer subclasses have some of the stronger subclass features, particularly at higher level.

Concentration-less flight, until the Aaracockra became a playable race, was actually very difficult to get in 5e; dragon sorcerers get it all day long at 14th level.

That said, unless you're angling for one of those high-level subclass features, I think I see sorcerer as a dip for another primary-caster build, most often. Get 3 levels for metamagic, and then you can use another class's spell access and features with it.

[Specter]

Without considering subclasses, the main difference is versatility in spells vs. versatility in how to cast the spells.

Sorcerers have metamagic, but have a shorter spell list and spells known.

[Whit]

Sorcerers have metamagic, but have a shorter spell list and spells known.[/QUOTE]

Exactly on point.
If you want to play sorcerer. You have very limited number of known spells that really don’t change much. However out of those known spells you can meta magic or font more spells casting of those spells yiu know. You also have the nonfighting charisma based skills.

But the traditional wizard will have more variety of spell choices to use. But since a wizard is Int based he only gets limited social skills like investigation, religion history arcana.

Now if yiu mukticlass it can be good but I dislike the 1-3 level dips to mini max

[SLOTHRPG95]

@Asisreo1, I agree that the spell slot flexibility of Sorcerers is great, I was just pointing out some technical errors in your assertion. Now that others have jumped onto that and it's become a whole back-and-forth, I don't feel like I have anything to say about the particulars. However, in broad terms, Sorcerers get to cast more mid- to high-level spells without restriction than Wizards, and that's true starting at 5th level and going all the way to 20th.


It's also worth considering that some of the sorcerer subclasses have some of the stronger subclass features, particularly at higher level.

Concentration-less flight, until the Aaracockra became a playable race, was actually very difficult to get in 5e; dragon sorcerers get it all day long at 14th level.

That said, unless you're angling for one of those high-level subclass features, I think I see sorcerer as a dip for another primary-caster build, most often. Get 3 levels for metamagic, and then you can use another class's spell access and features with it.

Hilarious unbalance of concentrationless flight at 1st level aside, being pigeonholed into one choice of race isn't for most people, so I'd say it's still a difficult ability to get in 5e. Draconic Sorcerer gets it at 14th, as does Divine Soul. Storm Sorcerer gets it at 18th, as do Tempest Clerics at 17th. So basically, your options are: (a) be a poorly-designed bird-man, (b) be a Tempest Cleric and be outside, or (c) pick one of about half the Sorcerer archetypes that get it.

With that said, I feel like Sorcerer is in an awkward place where I either want to dip 1-3 levels, or I want as many levels as I can possibly squeeze into my build, with no middle ground. Contrast this to the Fighter, which is good for a 1-3 level dip, or a 5-level dip on a build that otherwise doesn't get Extra Attack, or 6-8 levels if you're ASI-hungry (or you want War Magic, Curving Shot, etc.), or 11-level backbone of your build w/ double extra attack, or 15+ levels while (possibly) dipping something else. Rogue is the same deal, there's a lot of possible breakpoints. Even Warlocks and Bards, the other Cha-based casters, are better in this regard than Sorcerers.


That's what the Wizard is for.

Wizard doesn't get access to Enhance Ability (to pair with an already-high Charisma), nor Subtle Spell divinations, enchantments, and illusions. Bard doesn't have native access to 3rd+ level blasting spells, and even a Lore Bard w/ Fireball, Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning, and Meteor Swarm (taking half their MS picks) doesn't have the class ability support via Careful, Empower, and/or Elemental Affinity. If you want to be both a dedicated blaster and a dedicated face, Sorcerer has you covered in a way that neither Bard nor Wizard does. And this isn't the only niche that Sorcerers can occupy. See eg. healer/blaster via Divine Soul, dedicated Twinned buffer, etc.

[RSP]

A sorcerer's flexible casting is most effective at level 20, because they don't have to limit themselves to follow the structure of how a spellcaster normally works. Let's say a sorcerer has need to use spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Clairvoyance, 2 counterspells, Haste, fly, and Protection from Energy over the course of an adventuring day. Well, a wizard wouldn't quite be able to do so without using a 4+ level slot. A sorcerer can transmute their lower level spellslots to higher level spellslots. Which is probably the most important uses.

A few things on this:

You’ve chosen a very niche example (needing those specific spells) at a very specific time (Sorc level 20). It could very well be that the Wizard could overcome the same challenges the Sorc did, while using different spells or abilities. If you want to give examples of encounters, rather than prescribed spells used, it may make for a more fair comparison.

For instance, maybe the Wiz can forgo using Clairvoyance by having their owl familiar do a fly-by. This means the Sorc is using resources while the Wiz is not. Maybe Counterspell is one of their Signature Spells and each casting was their SR freebie. Again, this would mean the Wiz didn’t use any spell slots on those castings. Perhaps Hypnotic Pattern is their other Signature Spell.

So, in this very specific instance you laid out, the Wizard can accomplish the same thing as the Sorc with LESS resources (three 3rd level slots vs three 3rd level slots and 15 spell points)

Also, you started off by claiming how many 1st level slots a Sorc could cast, but now claim that upcasting is their best ability (which I’ve just shown, based on the limited info you presented) isn’t an advantage over the Wizard.



For additional context, a sorcerer doesn't have to sacrifice their metamagic ability to cast a higher level spell, they can purely take their lower level spells and convert them to higher level spells. 4th and 5th level spells are still quite relevant at level 20, you get things like Animate Objects, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, and Polymorph. You can use them alot less reserved than a wizard, since you can adjust and shuffle your spellslots.

Yes, they do. Sorcerers can only cast as many slots as a Wizard if they don’t use any spell points for Metamagic (assuming Wizard uses Arcane Recovery).

A Sorcerer can certainly cannibalize their lower level slots to create new ones, but not without having spent Sorc Points already (they still have their max SP limit intact), and would then be able to cast less spell. For example, turning three 1st level slots and three 2nd into a 5th level slot, means you’re casting 1 spell instead of 6.

Also note, that’s not something that can be done on the fly, due to requiring a BA to turn each slot into points, and then the points into a slot: that’s 7 turns of work. Could you do this during 42 seconds of downtime? Sure, but then you’re stuck with the 5th level slot rather than the lower level ones. If you then need to cast 2nd level spells, your stuck with a less efficient transfer (and more BAs needed).

[Asisreo1]

A few things on this:

You’ve chosen a very niche example (needing those specific spells) at a very specific time (Sorc level 20). It could very well be that the Wizard could overcome the same challenges the Sorc did, while using different spells or abilities. If you want to give examples of encounters, rather than prescribed spells used, it may make for a more fair comparison.

For instance, maybe the Wiz can forgo using Clairvoyance by having their owl familiar do a fly-by. This means the Sorc is using resources while the Wiz is not. Maybe Counterspell is one of their Signature Spells and each casting was their SR freebie. Again, this would mean the Wiz didn’t use any spell slots on those castings. Perhaps Hypnotic Pattern is their other Signature Spell.

So, in this very specific instance you laid out, the Wizard can accomplish the same thing as the Sorc with LESS resources (three 3rd level slots vs three 3rd level slots and 15 spell points)


My example pulled almost completely random spells in an unestablished scenario. There osn't amything specific about it. It was used to highlight the point that you may need more spellslots than you have. You can surely be more strategic, but so can a sorcerer. And being strategic can only get you so far. You can feed 4 men with 2 fish for a day, but that doesn't mean you should stop fishing at 2...or something.

[QUOTE]
Also, you started off by claiming how many 1st level slots a Sorc could cast, but now claim that upcasting is their best ability (which I’ve just shown, based on the limited info you presented) isn’t an advantage over the Wizard.

I think it is an advantage over Wizard. Specifically, spells that do more than just damage upon upcasting them. For instance, a 5th level invisibility allows the sorcerer to make everyone invisible. A 4th level Animate Dead lets you use 3 undead servants. A twinned 4th level Magic Weapon can help the fighter and Barbarian alot. Maybe you want to cast Animate Objects 1 more time, well, you can. Upcasting, alone, isn't exactly their best but having access to more mid-high level spells are great.

[QUOTE)
Yes, they do. Sorcerers can only cast as many slots as a Wizard if they don’t use any spell points for Metamagic (assuming Wizard uses Arcane Recovery).

A Sorcerer can certainly cannibalize their lower level slots to create new ones, but not without having spent Sorc Points already (they still have their max SP limit intact), and would then be able to cast less spell. For example, turning three 1st level slots and three 2nd into a 5th level slot, means you’re casting 1 spell instead of 6.

Also note, that’s not something that can be done on the fly, due to requiring a BA to turn each slot into points, and then the points into a slot: that’s 7 turns of work. Could you do this during 42 seconds of downtime? Sure, but then you’re stuck with the 5th level slot rather than the lower level ones. If you then need to cast 2nd level spells, your stuck with a less efficient transfer (and more BAs needed).
"Moving the Goalpost" Warning (Don't read ahead if this triggers you): The sorcerer can cast more 3rd+ level spells than a wizard can through pure cannibalization and spell slot recovery. They need to use the sorcery points to shift things around, but they can be back at max when the shuffle is done.

[RSP]

Wizard doesn't get access to Enhance Ability (to pair with an already-high Charisma), nor Subtle Spell divinations, enchantments, and illusions... And this isn't the only niche that Sorcerers can occupy. See eg. healer/blaster via Divine Soul, dedicated Twinned buffer, etc.

But this is the flaw of how the Sorc was designed: you have 15 spells known to work with their metamagic. Twin and Subtle, particularly, need specific spells to really be effective.

For example, Subtle is fantastic, but if you get it, you want to use it on spells like Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Major Image, Silent Image, Enhance Ability, Phantasmal Force, etc. basically, all the spells you want to use out of combat and not have it known you’re using a spell.

(If you’re solely using Subtle to avoid Counterspell, you’re really missing out on what it allows.)

But that takes up a large chunk of your spells known, leaving less spells for your other three metamagic options or just general usage.

If they had more spells known, they could cope better, but as is, it’s a hard limit to deal with.

[Garfunion]

The sorcerer can cast more 3rd+ level spells than a wizard can

This part is false

through pure cannibalization and spell slot recovery.
This part is true, a sorcerer can cannibalize their spell slots transforming them into sorcery points. Which in turn can be used to create more spell slots

I would really like to see the math you used involved in your claim.

[Aelyn]

"Moving the Goalpost" Warning (Don't read ahead if this triggers you)

This demonstrates that even if you were originally interested in discussing this in good faith, you aren't any more. You're just trying to get cheap shots in.

Shame, I was actually interested in a genuine discussion.

[Yakmala]

Sorcerers are one of the few classes I've never played to mid/high levels.

Wizards get to learn a ton of spells and while playing a Wizard, finding scrolls and spellbooks becomes part of the thrill of adventuring. I've played a bunch of different types of Wizards and enjoyed most of them.

The only Sorcerer I enjoyed (I'm not counting Sorcadins or Sorlocks) was a Divine Soul, and even then, the limited spell list was really frustrating, even more so than a Warlock, where I had a bunch of fun combat and roleplay Invocations to fall back on.

I can honestly say that Sorcerer is my least favorite class in 5e.

[Bobthewizard]

A sorcerer also gets SP back on a SR so they could cast quite a large number of spells like that as well. The point, though, is that they can cast 55+ different 1st-levels spells in a day or 16 5th-level spells or any gradient in between this, without accounting for sorcerous recovery. If a wizard wants to cast a different 1st-level spell more than 4 times, they'll need to take 8 hours to change.

How many 1st level spells are you preparing on a high level sorcerer? I'd likely only prepare shield and absorb elements, and maybe disguise self for certain builds. I don't think I'd ever need to cast those 55 times in a day.

Since there's such a jump from 2nd to 3rd level spells, I think the better comparison is how many 3rd -5th level spells can they cast compared to wizards, so the 16 5th level spells is useful information. I think burning 1st and 2nd level slots to make more 3-5 level slots is an underrated benefit of sorcerers.


Sorcerers are one of the few classes I've never played to mid/high levels.

Wizards get to learn a ton of spells and while playing a Wizard, finding scrolls and spellbooks becomes part of the thrill of adventuring. I've played a bunch of different types of Wizards and enjoyed most of them.

The only Sorcerer I enjoyed (I'm not counting Sorcadins or Sorlocks) was a Divine Soul, and even then, the limited spell list was really frustrating, even more so than a Warlock, where I had a bunch of fun combat and roleplay Invocations to fall back on.

I can honestly say that Sorcerer is my least favorite class in 5e.

Sorcerers are terrible at low levels. The lack of rituals and the lower number of spells prepared really hurts them compared to wizards. They can be fun at mid-game, though, say levels 6-12. As they get more sorcery points, meta magic can be fun. Careful for fear and hypnotic pattern completely changes the usefulness of those already great spells. Empowered with blasting does so much more average damage. Subtle is amazing if your DM doesn't unintentionally make all out of combat spell casting subtle. Twin and quicken are good but more expensive so you can't use them as often. I'd usually pick one of them up at level 10.

If you ever get to start a game at level 6 or above, try a shadow sorcerer with careful or a Dragon sorcerer with empowered. They are both fun to play.

[Nhorianscum]

Sorcerers are one of the few classes I've never played to mid/high levels.

Wizards get to learn a ton of spells and while playing a Wizard, finding scrolls and spellbooks becomes part of the thrill of adventuring. I've played a bunch of different types of Wizards and enjoyed most of them.

The only Sorcerer I enjoyed (I'm not counting Sorcadins or Sorlocks) was a Divine Soul, and even then, the limited spell list was really frustrating, even more so than a Warlock, where I had a bunch of fun combat and roleplay Invocations to fall back on.

I can honestly say that Sorcerer is my least favorite class in 5e.

Sorc has an absolute garbage tier 1, it's by far the worst in 5e here and I hate it.

Sorc 7 is just the dumbest power spike in 5e as you rocket from zero to "functionally a tier 3 caster".

Which is the main difference in wiz and sorc, their progression. Wiz is very even and is always a top caster, sorc gets 2 absolute bonkers spikes at 7-11 and 17-20 with not much before or between.

[Garfunion]

"Moving the Goalpost" Warning (Don't read ahead if this triggers you): The sorcerer can cast more 3rd+ level spells than a wizard can through pure cannibalization and spell slot recovery. They need to use the sorcery points to shift things around, but they can be back at max when the shuffle is done.

Actually I’m bored, I’ll do the math to see how right you are.

Standard adventuring day of two short rest and basic class abilities(no feats or archetype) of a level 20 sorcerer and wizard.

Sorcerer
Sorcery points 20
Short rests 8 points
Cannibalize spell slots(1st &2nd) 10 points

Total Sorcery points = 38

3rd level spell slot cost 5 sorcery points
Basic amount of daily 3rd level slots = 3

Total potential 3rd level spell slots = 10

Wizard
Basic amount of daily 3rd level slots = 3
Arcane recovery provides 3
Signature spell opens up 3

Total potential 3rd level spell slots = 9
•• Plus additional 3rd level spell casts if it is a ritual spell.


So the sorcerer does have access to one additional 3rd level spell slot within a standard adventuring day. Unless my math is off. However this would mean that the sorcerer will lose out on a class feature Metamagic. While the wizard will not be losing out on any of their class features.

Edit: I did the math wrong. but it did not affect the overall outcome.

[Asisreo1]

Actually I’m bored, I’ll do the math to see how right you are.

Standard adventuring day of two short rest and basic class abilities(no feats or archetype) of a level 20 sorcerer and wizard.

Sorcerer
Sorcery points 20
Short rests 8 points
Cannibalize spell slots(1st &2nd) 7 points

Total Sorcery points = 35

3rd level spell slot cost 5 sorcery points
Basic amount of daily 3rd level slots = 3

Total potential 3rd level spell slots = 10

Wizard
Basic amount of daily 3rd level slots = 3
Arcane recovery provides 3
Signature spell opens up 3

Total potential 3rd level spell slots = 9
•• Plus additional 3rd level spell casts if it is a ritual spell.


So the sorcerer does have access to one additional 3rd level spell slot within a standard adventuring day. Unless my math is off. However this would mean that the sorcerer will lose out on a class feature Metamagic. While the wizard will not be losing out on any of their class features.
Ah, but your math is wrong. Like I said, the goalpost was shifted. Here, I'll do the math for you, no sorcery points necessary.

Short Rest SP recovery: 8
Converting all 1st & 2nd spellslots (you forgot 2nd level spells count as 2 sorcery points): 10
Converting all 4th+ level spell slots: 70
Total: 78 sorcery points.
78/5 = 15.6 3rd-level spells
3rd-level spells already given: 3
Total 3rd-level spells castable without existing 20 sorcery points: 18.6
Total 3rd-level spells castable with sorcery points: 22.6
What happened?

As I said, you cannibalized all of your spell slots. It might not seem apparent, but there is a little exchange rate thing going on. For instance, a 7th level and 8th level slot turns into 3 3rd-level slots. Why would you do this? I wouldn't perse, but again, I'm demonstrating what you can do with your spell slots. You don't have to do such a thing, but the option is there.

[Hael]

Imo the sorcerers primary mechanical purpose is buffing. Twinning to bypass single concentration limits is the real saving grace of this class. Double casting polymorph or greater invisibility is encounter changing.

Of course being a full caster they’re better off than most classes, but still they’re overall pretty weak versions of the wizard/bard.

If they had more unique spells, that would go a long way to fixing them, but as it stands it feels like wotc took a strong full class and split it in half into warlock and sorcerer.

[Garfunion]

Ah, but your math is wrong. Like I said, the goalpost was shifted. Here, I'll do the math for you, no sorcery points necessary.

Short Rest SP recovery: 8
Converting all 1st & 2nd spellslots (you forgot 2nd level spells count as 2 sorcery points): 10
Converting all 4th+ level spell slots: 70
Total: 78 sorcery points.
78/5 = 15.6 3rd-level spells
3rd-level spells already given: 3
Total 3rd-level spells castable without existing 20 sorcery points: 18.6
Total 3rd-level spells castable with sorcery points: 22.6
What happened?

As I said, you cannibalized all of your spell slots. It might not seem apparent, but there is a little exchange rate thing going on. For instance, a 7th level and 8th level slot turns into 3 3rd-level slots. Why would you do this? I wouldn't perse, but again, I'm demonstrating what you can do with your spell slots. You don't have to do such a thing, but the option is there.

You’re right I did do the math wrong a little bit.

However if we were adding ability to cast 3rd level spells. The wizard can still use all of their higher level spell slots(total 12) to cast a 3rd level spell(total 21). So we’re still back to the point where the sorcerer can cast one additional 3rd level spell using your conversion method or two additional 3rd level spells if you just use the higher spell slots as normal. But still at the cost of not being able to use any meta-magic.

[Asisreo1]

You’re right I did do the math wrong a little bit.

However if we were adding ability to cast 3rd level spells. The wizard can still use all of their higher level spell slots(total 12) to cast a 3rd level spell(total 21). So we’re still back to the point where the sorcerer can cast one additional 3rd level spell using your conversion method or two additional 3rd level spells if you just use the higher spell slots as normal. But still at the cost of not being able to use any meta-magic.
Yeah, but it's a spectrum, as I said. It doesn't necessarily have to be 1st, 2nd, 3rd level spells. It's the spell spectrum from 1st to 5th and sorcerers can manipulate those without needing to upcast or take a short rest in between. I've already talked about 5th level spell slots and sorcerers before level 18-20.

And I've been talking as if metamagic isn't impressive by itself, but it is. It's a mix between your metamagic and your spells. For a different perspective, a wizard must use their invisible "wizardry points" to recover spell slots and they must way until a short rest to do so. A sorcerer could also do that and come out with a bit more spells, or they could Quicken a spell at the cost of a 1st level spell or heighten a spell at the cost of a second level spell. The point is they can control their spell slots in a very loose manner.

[Aylowan]

A sorcerer also gets SP back on a SR... [snip]

Perhaps I'm not completely following the logic, but I'm pretty sure you get back sorcery points on a long rest, not a short rest.

Edit: That being said, I do agree that Sorcerers seem like they're a bit underrated by other folks, at least in my opinion. I find the flexibility to be pretty fun. But we all have our own priorities in gaming! :)

[SLOTHRPG95]

But this is the flaw of how the Sorc was designed: you have 15 spells known to work with their metamagic. Twin and Subtle, particularly, need specific spells to really be effective.

For example, Subtle is fantastic, but if you get it, you want to use it on spells like Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Major Image, Silent Image, Enhance Ability, Phantasmal Force, etc. basically, all the spells you want to use out of combat and not have it known you’re using a spell.

(If you’re solely using Subtle to avoid Counterspell, you’re really missing out on what it allows.)

But that takes up a large chunk of your spells known, leaving less spells for your other three metamagic options or just general usage.

If they had more spells known, they could cope better, but as is, it’s a hard limit to deal with.

The spells known is a hard limit, and it bothers me that Sorcerers don't get any more spells known after 17th, whereas Wizards get 6, Bards get 2, and even Warlocks get 1 (and an extra Invocation that could effectively be an at-will spell known). With that said, it's definitely possible to cover all your bases for metamagic synergy with 15 spells known. To riff off our previous example, say you have Subtle, Twin, Empowered, and Careful metamagics. Pick four intrigue spells (for example: Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Enhance Ability, Dominate Person), three juicy twinnable combat buffs (Haste, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility), and five blast-y spells (Chromatic Orb, Fireball, Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning, Meteor Swarm). For your last three spells, some defense from Shield, Mirror Image, and flexibility from Wish. Congrats, you've got a solid blaster/buffer/face, and note that there's even overlap in potential use for the metamagic picks, like Twinned Dominate Person, or Subtle Polymorph if you don't want the whole court to know that you're the one who turned the Baron into a newt. This is far from an optimized spell selection, but it's still enough to get the job done in ways that a single-classed Bard or Wizard would fall short.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Choosing between the Sorcerer or the Wizard depends more on the player's personality than anything else. The Wizard is the more studious, and arguably most delicate of the two, however, they are not as magically limited as the Sorcerer. What are your thoughts?

Wizards are one of the worst designed classes in the game, for good or bad. The have no interesting class features in which others don't get access to, they don't have a lot of limitations unlike other classes, and thematically they don't make much sense to be exploring. The fluff of a wizard is the research tomes and magic... Not go off and get knee deep in goblin blood. There should be more about the wizard that aligns with their fluff (they should have to read from their spell books to cast spells or something).

Sorcerers are almost, almost, a perfectly designed class. Not quite but it has everything a class could want or need. Design flexibility, some really good options, class features that others can't touch, social options, and exploratory options.

Now that ain't to say the Wizard is weaker than the Sorcerer.

I play a sorcerer when I want to do something and do it well... But then also have other options. I don't pick 5 different blasty spells. There's no room for redundancy. Sometimes a wizard is just too much work for the same end result.

Subtle spell is downright broken at times. Like... Damn.


Sorcerer really isn't limited versus the game, just compared to the Wizard.

[Nagog]

Tbh Wizards are one of my go-to classes, and sorcerer's haven't ever really appealed to me. Metamagic doesn't feel it's strong (or expansive enough only knowing 2 options most of play) to give the class a strong identity, and the subclasses are also fairly meh in terms of both power and identity. The only subclass I've ever seriously considered was a Divine Soul, but even those are pretty lame compared to full Clerics, far less even the Theurgy Wizard. Speaking of, Wizards have a huuuge selection of subclasses, many with character defining abilities that are useful across the board.

Further, the locked-in nature of a Sorcerer's spells can be really dangerous. If you build yourself for a combat campaign and discover that it's much more interaction and problem focused, it's going to take you a loooooong time to fix your spell list. Many many levels worth of swapping spells. The only other full caster with locked-in spells is Bard, but they also have a full class worth of class abilities and skills to compensate if you mess up somewhere.

Tbh, Sorcerer just needs a revamp akin to the treatment Ranger has been getting of late.

[Satori01]

For instance, maybe the Wiz can forgo using Clairvoyance by having their owl familiar do a fly-by.

Come on, you are comparing a 1HP familiar, with a range limitation of 100 feet to see through the Familiar’s senses, with the Clairvoyance spell which has a range of 1 mile.

Find Familiar is a great spell, but unless you are buffing the Familiar at 5th level...the Familiar is not hiding very well and not detecting creatures/objects/features very well.

Find Familiar has an hour long cast, so when the Owl is killed, the Wizard has to wait for a a Short Rest to cast it again plus 10 minutes.

Wow, that argument was like the rhetorical equivalent of Chucking a basketball at the basket, just in case it accidentally goes in. 🖖

A Sorcerer through combinations of Metamagic choices and Subclass abilities can usually either get a debilitating spell to land through penalizing the monster’s saving throw, or avoid hitting party mates.

If the monster has Legendary Resistance, a Sorcerer can Nova through it.

A well made sorcerer can get more spells to land than a wizard.

Ritual Magic is nice, but at a +10 minute to spell cast time, in many gaming scenarios it just is not that viable to use..either due to time restraints or the limited nature of what spells have the “R” tag.

[Hytheter]

Sorc 7 is just the dumbest power spike in 5e as you rocket from zero to "functionally a tier 3 caster".

...how, exactly? I'm struggling to graps how getting a 4th level slot makes you a functional tier 3 caster or how the power spike is any more dramatic than any other full casting class.

[Eldariel]

...how, exactly? I'm struggling to graps how getting a 4th level slot makes you a functional tier 3 caster or how the power spike is any more dramatic than any other full casting class.

Twinned Polymorph, mostly. Want two 157HP brick walls that hit for 2x3d10+6 at +9? Yeah, you've got it. FWIW that's 45 average damage on a chassis that's functionally impervious to damage. Few martials on this level are close to such potency especially after Action Surge is burnt. Even Vuman Sharpshooters rolling 18s are looking at like +5 to hit for 1d8+15x2 at best (or three attacks, if you wanna give up +1 to hit and damage picking up XBE instead) for 19,5 damage per hit but at far worse hit rate. Attacking...say AC 16, Vuman XBE Sharpshooter (17,5 average damage with Hand Crossbow at 3/turn) is looking at normal hits on 12-19 and crit on 20 or 40% hits + 5% crits; ape is hitting on 7 so 65% hits, 5% crits. Ape averages 16,575‬ damage per melee attack for 33,15‬ while Vuman XBE Sharpshooter averages 8,05‬ per attack for 24,15‬ (which beats all other non-resource attacks pretty reliably; you could add a bit in Improved Critical or some such but largely all the meaningful boosts are 1/fight or spells or such).

In short, it's a pretty significant offensive booster that also makes the character functionally immune to damage for 1 hour (since enemies just aren't burning through 157 bonus HP any time soon) and you can affect two characters per casting. Which is pretty massive. The Apes can also Grapple down Ancient Dragons with some help (e.g. a Lore Bard) thanks to their Athletics Proficiency and Huge size, if desired.

[vexedart]

I think the sorcerer is a better duelist, but the wizard is a better utilitarian. Really depends on level as well though. I’d put wizards ahead in pvp in tiers 2, 3, but sorcs ahead in t1, t4, since both get wish anyways, the one with metamagic is a bit more combat ready. Really you just need to pick a good spell list and you’ll do fine as a sorcerer. Also, sorcs I feel have better multiclass options. (With certain arch types as exceptions of course)

So, in a fight, sorc.
In a ‘face’ Situation, sorc, generally.

Everything else I hand to the wizard.

[RSP]

I think the sorcerer is a better duelist, but the wizard is a better utilitarian. Really depends on level as well though. I’d put wizards ahead in pvp in tiers 2, 3, but sorcs ahead in t1, t4, since both get wish anyways, the one with metamagic is a bit more combat ready. Really you just need to pick a good spell list and you’ll do fine as a sorcerer. Also, sorcs I feel have better multiclass options. (With certain arch types as exceptions of course)

So, in a fight, sorc.
In a ‘face’ Situation, sorc, generally.

Everything else I hand to the wizard.

Does the Wiz get their familiar and Simulacrum for the fight? If so, the Wizard wins.

[RSP]

Come on, you are comparing a 1HP familiar, with a range limitation of 100 feet to see through the Familiar’s senses, with the Clairvoyance spell which has a range of 1 mile.

{scrubbed} It was stated that the adventuring day required the casting of certain 3rd level spells.

I responded that such a statement was way too specific without any further information, and that the Wizard has many other ways to overcome challenges. The familiar example was just one such example of how a challenge could be overcome in a different way.

Familiars are very good scouts and could very well do what Clairvoyance does (technically, better, since FF allows sight and sound at once), albeit with less range. But sometimes you really want to see an area before you enter it.



Find Familiar is a great spell, but unless you are buffing the Familiar at 5th level...the Familiar is not hiding very well and not detecting creatures/objects/features very well.

It only needs to hide if seeing an owl/raven/rat/etc is abnormal for a given situation.



Find Familiar has an hour long cast, so when the Owl is killed, the Wizard has to wait for a a Short Rest to cast it again plus 10 minutes.

Not sure what you do with your owls, but sure: except the Wizard can’t cast it during a SR.



Wow, that argument was like the rhetorical equivalent of Chucking a basketball at the basket, just in case it accidentally goes in. 🖖


{scrubbed}



A well made sorcerer can get more spells to land than a wizard.

I doubt it: they only have 15 spells max to potentially “land”. (16 if DS, Shadow or took MI). Wizards have up to 25. Clearly, they can “land” about 10 more spells. (~35 more if counting Simulacrum and the Wizard LRs after casting and changes out their spells).



Ritual Magic is nice, but at a +10 minute to spell cast time, in many gaming scenarios it just is not that viable to use..either due to time restraints or the limited nature of what spells have the “R” tag.

Any spell, Ritual or not, is not viable to use in many gaming scenarios, so that’s not exactly a knock on them.

Having Ritual spells is, indeed, a big benefit for Wizards, though, as it increases a Wizard’s repertoire and conserves spell slots.

[Nhorianscum]

...how, exactly? I'm struggling to graps how getting a 4th level slot makes you a functional tier 3 caster or how the power spike is any more dramatic than any other full casting class.

5th level slots at cl7 are dumb, chain casting level 4 spells is dumb, top that with metamagic and things just sorta go wacko yako and dot.

It's also the range where the game just buries sorcerers in more spell slot/point based value than is reasonable. (They get more spells per day of max level than warlocks for most of tier 2)

[JNAProductions]

5th level slots at cl7 are dumb, chain casting level 4 spells is dumb, top that with metamagic and things just sorta go wacko yako and dot.

5th level slots, arguably, but not 5th level SPELLS. There's a huge difference.

Most monsters fear Hold Monster a lot more than a 10d6 Fireball.

[heavyfuel]

5th level slots at cl7 are dumb, chain casting level 4 spells is dumb, top that with metamagic and things just sorta go wacko yako and dot.

Wait, how are you getting these?

[JNAProductions]

Wait, how are you getting these?

5th level slots take 7 SP to make.

A 7th level Sorcerer has 7 SP at max.

It's not something every DM would allow, and I'm not sure if it's RAW, but it's close enough that some do allow it.

[heavyfuel]

5th level slots take 7 SP to make.

A 7th level Sorcerer has 7 SP at max.

It's not something every DM would allow, and I'm not sure if it's RAW, but it's close enough that some do allow it.

Ah, I see. Thanks!

[Nhorianscum]

5th level slots, arguably, but not 5th level SPELLS. There's a huge difference.

Most monsters fear Hold Monster a lot more than a 10d6 Fireball.

Hold monster is pretty bad as a reference point since we can just do it's thing with not-5th-slots waaaay better.

(Not arguing against 5th level spells, being good. Just hold monster.)

That said an empowered draconic 5th level fireball does hit for 50ish average. Which ain't exactly small change.

(Optimized Sray/MM blasting is a no-save-just-die. Not going into that math today.)

The tier 3 thing is obviously a mild exagertaion for effect and humor.

[Rater202]

Sorcerer has better fluff.

Wizard: You studied really hard and now you can bend reality.

Which raises the question of why everyone doesn't do this?

With Sorcerer, there's a reason for why only so many people do it: One of your ancestors was a Dragon, Celestial, Fiend, or the like. Or you come from a long line of people who studied magic and several successive generations of constant exposure to magical energy eventually altered the lineage to be better and better at handling magic until you're born as a living font of magical power. Or your parents were prisoners of an ancient lich who performed cruel and inhumane experiments on people in a castle so full of undead both deliberately created and the tortured and vengeful souls of the Lich's victims that the boundaries between life and death are weaker and being conceived, carried to term, and born here makes you super in tune to the energies of life and death.

Or you're a demigod coming into your powers.

And by cultivating your mystical powers you become something more than mortal... or something less, depending on how you look at it?

I don't know, it's a more compelling narrative than "you're a normal guy who lucked into being able to study the exact things that let you bend reality and you stay a normal guy who just gets better at bending reality."

[heavyfuel]

Which raises the question of why everyone doesn't do this?

For the same reason not everyone can be a Physist, Doctor, Lawyer, or <insert other profession that requires years and years of dedicated studying>

Even then, most people don't want to risk their lives running around in dungeons killing dangerous creatures. So they'd be stuck with Wizard level 1, which is nice, but hardly in the realm of bending reality

[Satori01]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No, I quite do understand the conversation.
{scrubbed}

No worries...the thread is about Sorcerers.

If 3rd level tactics still work for you in the mid tiers good for you.
1HP Owls with low Perception (with possible Advantage) and low Stealth works for your games...kudos.

Twin Polymorph can nerf your party if not careful due to this:

The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast.

[Throne12]

I like the idea of the sorcerer but I have always pick wizard in the end because I need/like have choices when in encounters. I dont like being stuck to a one trip pony. I mostly create characters that are sort of Jack's of all traits. That why I love clerics i can build a cleric to cover every roll in the party and is able to jump in any role at any time is needed. But this is about sorcerers and wizards.

So for me it a some what reluctance pick for wizard just because of it verity and choose at the ready.

[RSP]

No, I quite do understand the conversation.
It is rather apparent that rudeness is being substituted for an actual argument with evidence.

What argument was that? That there’s no possible situation where a familiar can scout an area that could also be scouted with Clairvoyance?

{scrubbed}

[Asisreo1]

Perhaps I'm not completely following the logic, but I'm pretty sure you get back sorcery points on a long rest, not a short rest.

Edit: That being said, I do agree that Sorcerers seem like they're a bit underrated by other folks, at least in my opinion. I find the flexibility to be pretty fun. But we all have our own priorities in gaming! :)
It's their capstone to get SP on a short rest.

[follacchioso]

In a sorcerer vs wizard battle, subtle and distant metamagic are very strong options for the sorcerer.

The sorcerer can easily counterspell anything the wizard may cast, without being re-counterspelled thanks to subtle spells. The sorcerer can also counterspell many nasty spells that have more than 60' range, thanks to distant spells.

[bendking]

Purely mechanically - the Wizard would be better at most roles, and generally stronger.
Sorcerers can be better at specific things. For example, they can be better buffers (Twinned Spell) and better social gods (Subtle Spell), but Wizards are generally stronger for a multitude of reasons, such as Spells Known/Prepared and a much larger spell list (among which are the strongest spells in the entire game that Sorcerers can't even access).

[KorvinStarmast]

Somebody had mentioned further up that you recharge sorcery points on a short rest, but it is a long rest resource

You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a Long Rest. (PHB, Font of Magic)

At 20th level, you regain 4 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a Short Rest.
There is an extra 2d level spell. *toss confetti* Or a twinned level 4 spell. *dons party hat*

[Asisreo1]

Purely mechanically - the Wizard would be better at most roles, and generally stronger.
Sorcerers can be better at specific things. For example, they can be better buffers (Twinned Spell) and better social gods (Subtle Spell), but Wizards are generally stronger for a multitude of reasons, such as Spells Known/Prepared and a much larger spell list (among which are the strongest spells in the entire game that Sorcerers can't even access).
There's a difference between being stronger and being better at certain roles. For instance, a sorcerer is stronger in the sense that they can push out more spells that are strong. IE, more 5th level spells. Metamagic also increases the strength of your spells with empowered, heightened, and distance while others increase the usability of the spells, like extended, careful, twinned (which arguably makes spells stronger too), and quickened.

Wizards are much more versatile. It's like the difference between a jack-of-all-trades vs the master of a specific trade. If the trade is utility, the sorcerer can eek by alot of situations by using subtle and distant/extended. If the trade is power, Empowered and Twinned/Heightened is great. If there's action economy, Quickened and Twinned is great.

So I'm basically saying sorcerers are more powerful but also (usually) more specialized. Nothing stopping a sorcerer from casting invisibility or fly, they just aren't as easily available. Ritual spells are nice, though the majority are inconsequential.

[bendking]

There's a difference between being stronger and being better at certain roles. For instance, a sorcerer is stronger in the sense that they can push out more spells that are strong. IE, more 5th level spells. Metamagic also increases the strength of your spells with empowered, heightened, and distance while others increase the usability of the spells, like extended, careful, twinned (which arguably makes spells stronger too), and quickened.

Wizards are much more versatile. It's like the difference between a jack-of-all-trades vs the master of a specific trade. If the trade is utility, the sorcerer can eek by alot of situations by using subtle and distant/extended. If the trade is power, Empowered and Twinned/Heightened is great. If there's action economy, Quickened and Twinned is great.

So I'm basically saying sorcerers are more powerful but also (usually) more specialized. Nothing stopping a sorcerer from casting invisibility or fly, they just aren't as easily available. Ritual spells are nice, though the majority are inconsequential.

We don't disagree, though perhaps my choice of words "strong" and "better" lead you to believe otherwise.
I'm basically saying Wizards are more generally useful than Sorcerers while Sorcerers can specialize at a niche to be the best at it . However, there aren't many of those niches. It basically boils down to: Do you really want to be the best Buffer/Social God? Pick Sorcerer. Otherwise, you're probably better off with Wizard.

[RSP]

There's a difference between being stronger and being better at certain roles. For instance, a sorcerer is stronger in the sense that they can push out more spells that are strong. IE, more 5th level spells. Metamagic also increases the strength of your spells with empowered, heightened, and distance while others increase the usability of the spells, like extended, careful, twinned (which arguably makes spells stronger too), and quickened.

Wizards are much more versatile. It's like the difference between a jack-of-all-trades vs the master of a specific trade. If the trade is utility, the sorcerer can eek by alot of situations by using subtle and distant/extended. If the trade is power, Empowered and Twinned/Heightened is great. If there's action economy, Quickened and Twinned is great.

So I'm basically saying sorcerers are more powerful but also (usually) more specialized. Nothing stopping a sorcerer from casting invisibility or fly, they just aren't as easily available. Ritual spells are nice, though the majority are inconsequential.

But again, Simulacrum basically lets the Wizard accomplish Twin or Quicken, and “push out” more higher level spells: at least two more 5th, one more 6th, three more each of 2nd-4th and four more 1sts.

The Sorc can do the same at 17 with Wish, but the Wizard still has four more levels of using it, and is still more powerful with its use d/t not having to use their 9th level slot to create the Simulacrum.

And that’s just one spell (granted one of their most powerful, but just one). The Wizard has a much better list as well as more spells cast able on any given day.

[diplomancer]

Somebody had mentioned further up that you recharge sorcery points on a short rest, but it is a long rest resource

There is an extra 2d level spell. *toss confetti* Or a twinned level 4 spell. *dons party hat*

If you're a warforged, that's infinite spells of levels 1-5 , and infinite sorcery points (at the significant cost of not having your 6-9th level spells available. Make sure to make all your wishes with permanent effects before going for it. Go out with a bang with the risky Wish castings also before you start it). Behold the single-classed coffeesorc.

[Satori01]

But again, Simulacrum basically lets the Wizard accomplish Twin or Quicken, and “push out” more higher level spells: at least two more 5th, one more 6th, three more each of 2nd-4th and four more 1sts.


One Heightened Charm Monster or Dominate spell means suddenly the Wizard is fighting a Sorcerer and Themselves.

A Geas spell can also short circuit a Simulacra Construct.
As many people assume a Simulacra knows the same information as the Original, a Wizard making a Simulacra is creating a security vulnerability for their own secrets.

Simulacrum is an awesome spell, easily one of my favorites, but anything that adds more variables can be adding detrimental elements as well.

[Eldariel]

One Heightened Charm Monster or Dominate spell means suddenly the Wizard is fighting a Sorcerer and Themselves.

A Geas spell can also short circuit a Simulacra Construct.
As many people assume a Simulacra knows the same information as the Original, a Wizard making a Simulacra is creating a security vulnerability for their own secrets.

Simulacrum is an awesome spell, easily one of my favorites, but anything that adds more variables can be adding detrimental elements as well.

Y'know, I'd much rather have my Simulacrum Dominated or Charmed than myself Dominated or Charmed. I think this is an advantage: enemy needs two direct "**** you" spells to take the Wizard out instead of the normal 1 for any other character. Plus the Simulacrum can very well have all the defenses a normal Wizard does down to Contingency; I don't see it being an easy target by any means. And it's probably in the presence of you, its master, so enemy spending an action means they're not spending the action on you leaving you free to Deadify whoever cast those spells (which conveniently breaks Concentration too).

[Tes]

Imho the Sorcerer vs Wizard (vs Druid vs Bard vs Cleric) thing is more of a flavor/party comp thing most of the time.

Do you need a guy to pass Arcana Checks? Wizard does it better than Sorc
Do you need healing? Divine Soul Sorc does it better than any Wizard
Do you want to build a Magical Sherlock Holmes? Int is Wizard again
Do you want to be the leader of your party? Sorcerer isn't a Charisma class for nothing

The biggest argument I have for Wizard is that the choice of subclasses + INT based shenanigans tend to have much less competition in the average party than the CHA Skills the Sorcerer brings.
Wizard just lets you play more in your niche when there is a Paladin, Bard and Warlock around on face duty.
If your Group has an Artificier and INT Skill heavy Arcane Tricksters, the Sorcerer is going to be a better match, but the Wizard still is a full caster to stand out.

[Master O'Laughs]

In a sorcerer vs wizard battle, subtle and distant metamagic are very strong options for the sorcerer.

The sorcerer can easily counterspell anything the wizard may cast, without being re-counterspelled thanks to subtle spells. The sorcerer can also counterspell many nasty spells that have more than 60' range, thanks to distant spells.

Since Counterspell has this language, "Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

I may be a DM discretion if distant would actually let you increase the range at which you can counterspell. I have heard it been said that RAW, distant does not work on counterspell.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sorcerers and Wizards fighting against each other in a battle makes 0 sense to white room this fight.

D&D is not a PvP game, though I'm surprised there isn't a MOBA for D&D (which would be 4e in videogame form I guess).

[KorvinStarmast]

If you're a warforged, that's infinite spells of levels 1-5
How so?

and infinite sorcery points
How so?

[RSP]

Sorcerers and Wizards fighting against each other in a battle makes 0 sense to white room this fight.

D&D is not a PvP game, though I'm surprised there isn't a MOBA for D&D (which would be 4e in videogame form I guess).

The thread is actually about choosing between the two as a Player, not the two fighting (though you aren’t the first on here to think that).

[diplomancer]

How so?

How so?

It's the same exploit of the coffeelock. Warforged don't need to sleep. So, they just need to never take a long rest (because doing so would reset their spellcasting slots). Even better, since it's stated that they NEED to be in an inactive, motionless state for 6 hours when they take a long rest, as long as they don't go into this inactive, motionless state, the DM can't even say "you've had 8 short rests in a row, that's a long rest".

So, convert sorcery points into spell slots, SR to get sorcery points back, rinse and repeat. You have, as long as you don't take a long rest, the potential for infinite spell slots of level 1-5, and therefore infinite Sorcery Points (since you can convert those spell slots back to sorcery points when you need to). We are talking about a 20th level full caster who cannot cast any spells above 6th level after they've used up their few slots, as there's no way to get those slots back without long resting. It's a fun exploit, but definitely not game breaking at this level.

[Nhorianscum]

So to cut in on the "super awsome sweet wizard spells" thingy.

Silmulacrums don't regain spell slots naturally (though the 1/day short-rest does still work) and are prohibitively difficult to setup and maintain pre-wish. They're also beyond fragile.

Contingency and extended spell are comparable effects.

I feel like folks overate these spells, they're incredibly useful and are the wizards trump card but the class is also dependant on them and they're almost never operating at full capacity before tier 4 where they're functionally shared features of the arcane full-casters.

Wizards trumps are more in line with their powerful no-save control and rich utility list which the sorcerer just cannot fully emulate. These features come on early for the wizard right at first level and stay relevant all game.

[Eldariel]

Silmulacrums don't regain spell slots naturally (though the 1/day short-rest does still work) and are prohibitively difficult to setup and maintain pre-wish. They're also beyond fragile.

They're also quite able to protect themselves. Contingency can e.g. produce Resilient Sphere which can be activated more or less at will. They can also trail their allies and just cast max range buff spell while maintaining their distance. Obviously when you have superpowered artillery (essentially your own personal archmage) that's superfragile, you'll use it as artillery: place it within artillery distance of the enemy, bring it in sparingly, let it fire its salvos from safety, etc.


Contingency and extended spell are comparable effects.

I strongly disagree. Contingency breaks action economy, Extended Spell does not. Extended Spell is good for making long duration buffs last even longer, but Contingency is good for having a free escape button at the worst moment. Extended Spell has to predict when you need an escape button, Contingency can be made happen on the spot. Contingency can be tied to something as simple as Dimension Door to simply ensure whatever lethal effect is no longer in range of you. Alternatively it can be tied to something breaking line of effect to ensure the effect you want to be able to escape from (as well as all subsequent attacks) cannot affect you. Contingency is right about the strongest defense available in the game.


I feel like folks overate these spells, they're incredibly useful and are the wizards trump card but the class is also dependant on them and they're almost never operating at full capacity before tier 4 where they're functionally shared features of the arcane full-casters.

I kinda do disagree. Yes, on Tier 4 everyone can get Wish > Simulacrum. Wizard can get Simulacrum that still has 9th level slot left to e.g. Wish for its own Simulacrum. Or use the second 7th level slot to craft another Simulacrum both of which still have 9th level slots left so you can get a total of 4 Simulacrums that still have 8th level slots left, or 2 with 9th and 8th level slots. Sure, it costs you a bit (but honestly, maintaining it shouldn't be expensive: if it's taking damage, you're probably taking a lot of unwarranted risks or the enemy is using an implausible amount of resources to inflict minor monetary harm to you while paying for it with their own lives - which is generally DM metagaming), but it's easily worth it. Producing wealth is pretty trivial for a caster with 9th level spells anyways.

Magic Jar is another amazingly powerful ability that Wizards get from level 11 onwards. Being able to take over any humanoid body is just bonkers, especially since most NPCs lack meaningful class features but can give you pretty crazy stuff. Also on Tier 4, Wizard does get the Other Insane 9th Level Spells: Shapechange and True Polymorph. In fact it's the only class that gets the whole list of Wish, True Polymorph and Shapechange for maintaining its casting while doing crazy stuff, being able to change its allies and underlings into actual CR20 things, and being able to have all relevant long duration spells in the game active (Wizard only really wants Find Greater Steed for Share Spells abuse).


Wizards trumps are more in line with their powerful no-save control and rich utility list which the sorcerer just cannot fully emulate. These features come on early for the wizard right at first level and stay relevant all game.

I do agree that's also incredibly powerful but what really breaks the game for Wizard in Tier 3 is the insane 6th and 7th level Wizard-only abilities. No other class can compare with the leap in power from Tier 2 to Tier 3. While every caster gets good stuff, Wizards' things are simply the strongest and notably long duration: as with everything Wizard-related, their ability to build power is incomparable and they have it at their fingertips pretty much from the moment they put in the initial resources. Thus they can have combat spells on those levels while also enjoying the long duration power boosts. And yeah, things get kinda more even on Tier 4 but Wizard still pulls ahead with the best set of 9th level spells for the most varied range of "Break everything"-options being essentially able to break things the most [well, Bard can get the same trio as well learning True Polymorph the oldfashioned way and Wish and Shapechange through Magical Secrets].

[KorvinStarmast]

the DM can't even say "you've had 8 short rests in a row, that's a long rest". yes the DM can say that, but thanks for explaining.

[Nhorianscum]

They're also quite able to protect themselves. Contingency can e.g. produce Resilient Sphere which can be activated more or less at will. They can also trail their allies and just cast max range buff spell while maintaining their distance. Obviously when you have superpowered artillery (essentially your own personal archmage) that's superfragile, you'll use it as artillery: place it within artillery distance of the enemy, bring it in sparingly, let it fire its salvos from safety, etc.



I strongly disagree. Contingency breaks action economy, Extended Spell does not. Extended Spell is good for making long duration buffs last even longer, but Contingency is good for having a free escape button at the worst moment. Extended Spell has to predict when you need an escape button, Contingency can be made happen on the spot. Contingency can be tied to something as simple as Dimension Door to simply ensure whatever lethal effect is no longer in range of you. Alternatively it can be tied to something breaking line of effect to ensure the effect you want to be able to escape from (as well as all subsequent attacks) cannot affect you. Contingency is right about the strongest defense available in the game.



I kinda do disagree. Yes, on Tier 4 everyone can get Wish > Simulacrum. Wizard can get Simulacrum that still has 9th level slot left to e.g. Wish for its own Simulacrum. Or use the second 7th level slot to craft another Simulacrum both of which still have 9th level slots left so you can get a total of 4 Simulacrums that still have 8th level slots left, or 2 with 9th and 8th level slots. Sure, it costs you a bit (but honestly, maintaining it shouldn't be expensive: if it's taking damage, you're probably taking a lot of unwarranted risks or the enemy is using an implausible amount of resources to inflict minor monetary harm to you while paying for it with their own lives - which is generally DM metagaming), but it's easily worth it. Producing wealth is pretty trivial for a caster with 9th level spells anyways.

Magic Jar is another amazingly powerful ability that Wizards get from level 11 onwards. Being able to take over any humanoid body is just bonkers, especially since most NPCs lack meaningful class features but can give you pretty crazy stuff. Also on Tier 4, Wizard does get the Other Insane 9th Level Spells: Shapechange and True Polymorph. In fact it's the only class that gets the whole list of Wish, True Polymorph and Shapechange for maintaining its casting while doing crazy stuff, being able to change its allies and underlings into actual CR20 things, and being able to have all relevant long duration spells in the game active (Wizard only really wants Find Greater Steed for Share Spells abuse).



I do agree that's also incredibly powerful but what really breaks the game for Wizard in Tier 3 is the insane 6th and 7th level Wizard-only abilities. No other class can compare with the leap in power from Tier 2 to Tier 3. While every caster gets good stuff, Wizards' things are simply the strongest and notably long duration: as with everything Wizard-related, their ability to build power is incomparable and they have it at their fingertips pretty much from the moment they put in the initial resources. Thus they can have combat spells on those levels while also enjoying the long duration power boosts. And yeah, things get kinda more even on Tier 4 but Wizard still pulls ahead with the best set of 9th level spells for the most varied range of "Break everything"-options being essentially able to break things the most [well, Bard can get the same trio as well learning True Polymorph the oldfashioned way and Wish and Shapechange through Magical Secrets].

Eh, tier 4 casters with prep time are by default infinite busted. Sorc has it's own comparable tricks here but comparing "end the game" to "end the game" always feels a bit silly in the "batman vs spiderman with prep time" playground argument way.

My default is wiz > sorc tier 1, wiz < sorc tier 2, wiz = sorc tier 3, tier 4 wish ends the campain.

(Folks do tend to underestimate just how shenanigans sorc is after their tier 2 spike. The big boi spells wiz picks up in tier 3 just feel like... catching up.)

[RSP]

Wizard can get Simulacrum that still has 9th level slot left to e.g. Wish for its own Simulacrum.

Wizards can have Simulacrums with full slots starting at 15th level:
1) create Simulacrum of self
2) long rest
3) have Simulacrum created at 1) cast Simulacrum targeting the Wizard (who now has long rested and is full slots).

Sorcerers are limited to Simulacrums that are missing 9th level spells, and, therefore, cannot create their own Simulacrum.

[Eldariel]

Eh, tier 4 casters with prep time are by default infinite busted. Sorc has it's own comparable tricks here but comparing "end the game" to "end the game" always feels a bit silly.

My default is wiz > sorc tier 1, wiz < sorc tier 2, wiz = sorc tier 3, tier 4 wish ends the campain.

(Folks do tend to underestimate just how shenanigans sorc is after their tier 2 spike. The big boi spells wiz picks up in tier 3 just feel like... catching up.)

I'm at Wiz > Sorc tier 1, Wiz = Sorc tier 2, Wiz > Sorc tier 3, Wiz > everything tier 4. I feel like while Sorc gets crazy stuff in Tier 2, it's a tier where breadth is also immensely important due to the number of insane options available. Like with level 3 spells, you really want Tiny Hut and Phantom Steed, Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern, Haste and Counterspell, Dispel Magic and Fly, Major Image (admittedly you really want it only on level 11) and maybe even other CC spells. Sorcerer really has to take their pick while a Wizard can eventually learn all of them by just scribing spells. Sure, Sorc will be better at what they picked up and Quicken Spell in particular is incredible on tier 2 (as is just getting extra 4th/5th level slots) but I feel like on this tier Wizard's ritual casting and breadth of options they can prepare also reaches the high note at this point. Wizard might not be able to double dip potent spells or get double value out of Haste or some such, but it can do that and still have Counterspell available while also being able to solve challenges with Dispel Magic and Fly.

Hell, Wizard can learn Glyph of Warding and begin scribing free buff spells and such on this level; the downtime boosts begin from tier 2 (Tier 1 if we begin playing around with Magic Mouth). Same with Animate Dead (which is probably the strongest spell on this level and something Sorc can't learn). Overall, while Sorc is great, my reasoning for believing Wizard is probably still better is:
- Animate Dead, Magic Mouth, Tiny Hut, Glyph of Warding, Phantom Steed. Powerful Ritual and Downtime spells. Sorc can take Ritual Caster: Wizard to get Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut and Magic Mouth, but then they're incredibly behind in terms of basic abilities at this point since that means they aren't taking stat boosts, Alert/Lucky, Res:Wis, etc.
- The overload of spells you want on level 3. This level is just a gold mine of different superpowerful game changing effects. Eventually you'll want all of them but Sorc has 10 spells known by level 9 which vastly limits their option of spell choices (even if you unlearn all your 1st and 2nd level spells and just convert everything into 3rd level slots, you'll still be hardpressed to have access to magical effects you must disable, obstacles, different combat encounters [Haste/Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern is a solid list], etc.)
- Subclass abilities: I feel the better Wizard subclasses are just better at this point. Illusionist hits its stride with Malleable Illusions, Diviner gets its second bomb in Expert Divination and Portent is still going strong, Necromancer gets its only relevant ability in making superstrong hordes, War Wizard...doesn't get anything but still has +3-4 to Initiative and +4 to saves, Evoker likewise doesn't get anything but Sculpt Spell is still great (or rather gets great at these points), etc.

Meanwhile Divine Soul is good but the limit on spells known just get more severe if you go down that road and you lose even more basic arcane functionality for the divine cream, Shadow Sorcerer further taxes your already taxed sorcery points (though to pretty good effect), and Draconic is just a fairly meager gish chassis that adds a minor damage bonus to Fireball - nice but not as good as e.g. Sculpt Spell IMHO (and yes, I agree that Sorcerer's metamagic on the other hand probably does more). Oh and Wild Magic exists, I guess.

[Nhorianscum]

Wizards can have Simulacrums with full slots starting at 15th level:
1) create Simulacrum of self
2) long rest
3) have Simulacrum created at 1) cast Simulacrum targeting the Wizard (who now has long rested and is full slots).

Sorcerers are limited to Simulacrums that are missing 9th level spells, and, therefore, cannot create their own Simulacrum.

Aw shucks, the (insert thing) did dispel magic/antimagic.

"Hey guys I uuuuh, need a week or so of prep time... the world can wait right?"

Assuming 9th level spells shenanigans aren't just ending things implies that... we're gonna need to rebuild the 25000gp man on the daily if we want em around

[Eldariel]

Aw shucks, the (insert thing) did dispel magic/antimagic.

"Hey guys I uuuuh, need a week or so of prep time... the world can wait right?"

Assuming 9th level spells shenanigans aren't just ending things implies that... we're gonna need to rebuild the 25000gp man on the daily if we want em around

Antimagic just causes them to wink out but dispel is indeed good. However, Dispel is also something you can counterspell and you don't need to have them frontline. In actual play, I've found Simulacrums are rather hardier targets especially if they have their own Contingency (which can often protect them from Dispel Magic type things pretty efficiently). And 25000gp? 1500 is what the book says.

[diplomancer]

yes the DM can say that, but thanks for explaining.

Well, the DM can say anything, of course. I meant that the rules state that, in order to take a long rest, a Warforged has to spend at least 6 hours in an inactive, motionless state. If he doesn't do that, he does not take a long rest.
Can the DM say "yes, you did take a long rest even though you were reading this book all night"? Yes, the DM can say anything. But it would be a houserule.

I honestly don't even think it's too powerful, at least not in a regular game within an adventure party. You have to give up all your tier 3 and 4 spells for that. On a 20th level character, basically anything goes

[KorvinStarmast]

But it would be a houserule. Not really. That would be a ruling, but I think we may be splitting hairs a bit here, and no adding value to the thread. Thanks again for your assessment.

[InspectorG]

Choosing between the Sorcerer or the Wizard depends more on the player's personality than anything else. ...


No. They are VERY mechanically different.

Wizards = Spell variety to solve problems.

Sorcerer = manipulating the Action Economy to solve problems.

Sorcs get stereotyped as Blasters(which they do well) but are better Controllers and Buffers than most expect, because most players dont study the Action Economy or the various Actions.

The Wizard is the All-Terrain Vehicle. Good in mud, highway, off road, etc. The Sorc is the Race Car.

Flexible Casting is odd and misunderstood by most. This is obvious in how most players/DMs frame the whole issue. Wizards with their Sr recovery can get mote optimal Slots PER DAY.
Sorcerers can have more Slots PER ENCOUNTER. ATV vs Race Car.

Yes, the good Sorcerer needs to know/intuit when to coast and save Slots, and when to Drop the Hammer. Its called 'being Clutch'. This is why they get so many Cantrips.

Ill use lower level play as an example, because most players never get past lvl10 and i have no lvl15+ Sorc experience.

Lvl2 Sorc gets x4 lvl1 Slots(SP = x1 lvl1 Slot) assuming no SP fueled actions are needed. Wizard gets x3 lvl1 slots. About 33% MORE spell output IN ONE ENCOUNTER.

lvl3 Sorc CAN: x4 lvl2 Slots(SP+3 converted lvl1 slots), TWICE what a Wizard can drop IN ONE ENCOUNTER, Or: settle for x5 lvl1 Slots and 1lvl2 slots.

Lvl5 Sorc(here is where it gets fun) Can: convert all 1lvl+2lvl slots +all SP to get... x5lvl3 slots...

THIS IS HOW YOU RUIN THE DM's PLANS

5 Fireballs is lulz. Yeah, you are spent but, pfft, you have 5 Cantrips and a Crossbow to play with.


Meta Magic

Yes, some are great, some are poop. Ill cover the good ones.

Quicken - Spell + Cantrip in one turn, can combine with Dodge/Disengage/Help/Use Item(some magic, most not), and some spells can be 'double pumped' with Quicken(Sunbeam)
Quicken also makes the Sorlock and Sorcadin pump so much damage.
REMEMBER- most fights last only about 4 Rounds. SPEED IS KEY.

Twin - Is basically having TWO WIZARDS!!! Twin debuffs look tempting... But Twin Buffs have zero risk and are more optimal. You just doubled the value of your Concentration. Very few Wizard features come close.

Heighten - reduces risk of a big spell not sticking. Sucks for a Wizard to have to take a big gample on a 5/6/7/8lvl Slot to lockdown a Big Bad. Sorc can get better odds.

Empower - in round numbers, can add about 20% more damage to a blast(its a gamble), and better yet, SAVES whiffed damage rolls. Sucks for a Wizard to drop a Fireball and get 15 damage... Sorcs have Empower as an insurance policy AND can gamble 1SP to pump damage to about another level's worth of Slot for that casting.

Careful - IF you are Controlling, this is boss. Blasting is less optimal, But guilt-free Hypnotic Pattern/Fear in Close Quarters is nice. Gains value in small spaces(dungeons) loses some value in large spaces(open field). Would be amazing if it worked better for Cloud spells but we cant have nice things.

Subtle - Social Situations, shuts down Counterspell, hands bound/no equipment, Ambushes, Infiltration/Recon. Ever have Rats steal random party stuff during rest and Big Dumb Fighter didnt see them take Components? Yeah, you can cope with that.



Now...x5 Fireballs at lvl5 is fun but you dont want to do this type of thing very often. The DM can just buff HP or use more Counterspell, force more Concentration rolls.

BETTER WAY TO THINK LIKE A SORCERER

Scenario - Party vs a mob of mooks and a caster in the back. Low level.

Typically, party has to hack through the mob before getting to the caster and hope nothing too bad happens, or party archer/rogue can deal with it.

Our lvl3 Sorcerer has it covered. Quicken Minor Illusion with Max's Earth Grasp. Caster likely has no STR so it gets Restrained and eats 2d6 PLUS Line-of-Sight is blocked from the Minor Illusion you placed 5 foot in front of it.

Enemy Caster cant cast a LoS spell(most spells), and has to burn an Action to either A)try to break free, B)try to examine the illusion. Sorc can of course, make another Illusion next turn if needed.
Enemy Caster Action Economy is shut down, which may not have happened if left to a party Archer/Rogue due to time to reach or not enough damage to subdue.

THIS is why Sorcerers are very different from Wizards, not just the Player's personality.

[Nhorianscum]

No. They are VERY mechanically different.

Wizards = Spell variety to solve problems.

Sorcerer = manipulating the Action Economy to solve problems.

Sorcs get stereotyped as Blasters(which they do well) but are better Controllers and Buffers than most expect, because most players dont study the Action Economy or the various Actions.

The Wizard is the All-Terrain Vehicle. Good in mud, highway, off road, etc. The Sorc is the Race Car.

Flexible Casting is odd and misunderstood by most. This is obvious in how most players/DMs frame the whole issue. Wizards with their Sr recovery can get mote optimal Slots PER DAY.
Sorcerers can have more Slots PER ENCOUNTER. ATV vs Race Car.

Yes, the good Sorcerer needs to know/intuit when to coast and save Slots, and when to Drop the Hammer. Its called 'being Clutch'. This is why they get so many Cantrips.

Ill use lower level play as an example, because most players never get past lvl10 and i have no lvl15+ Sorc experience.

Lvl2 Sorc gets x4 lvl1 Slots(SP = x1 lvl1 Slot) assuming no SP fueled actions are needed. Wizard gets x3 lvl1 slots. About 33% MORE spell output IN ONE ENCOUNTER.

lvl3 Sorc CAN: x4 lvl2 Slots(SP+3 converted lvl1 slots), TWICE what a Wizard can drop IN ONE ENCOUNTER, Or: settle for x5 lvl1 Slots and 1lvl2 slots.

Lvl5 Sorc(here is where it gets fun) Can: convert all 1lvl+2lvl slots +all SP to get... x5lvl3 slots...

THIS IS HOW YOU RUIN THE DM's PLANS

5 Fireballs is lulz. Yeah, you are spent but, pfft, you have 5 Cantrips and a Crossbow to play with.


Meta Magic

Yes, some are great, some are poop. Ill cover the good ones.

Quicken - Spell + Cantrip in one turn, can combine with Dodge/Disengage/Help/Use Item(some magic, most not), and some spells can be 'double pumped' with Quicken(Sunbeam)
Quicken also makes the Sorlock and Sorcadin pump so much damage.
REMEMBER- most fights last only about 4 Rounds. SPEED IS KEY.

Twin - Is basically having TWO WIZARDS!!! Twin debuffs look tempting... But Twin Buffs have zero risk and are more optimal. You just doubled the value of your Concentration. Very few Wizard features come close.

Heighten - reduces risk of a big spell not sticking. Sucks for a Wizard to have to take a big gample on a 5/6/7/8lvl Slot to lockdown a Big Bad. Sorc can get better odds.

Empower - in round numbers, can add about 20% more damage to a blast(its a gamble), and better yet, SAVES whiffed damage rolls. Sucks for a Wizard to drop a Fireball and get 15 damage... Sorcs have Empower as an insurance policy AND can gamble 1SP to pump damage to about another level's worth of Slot for that casting.

Careful - IF you are Controlling, this is boss. Blasting is less optimal, But guilt-free Hypnotic Pattern/Fear in Close Quarters is nice. Gains value in small spaces(dungeons) loses some value in large spaces(open field). Would be amazing if it worked better for Cloud spells but we cant have nice things.

Subtle - Social Situations, shuts down Counterspell, hands bound/no equipment, Ambushes, Infiltration/Recon. Ever have Rats steal random party stuff during rest and Big Dumb Fighter didnt see them take Components? Yeah, you can cope with that.



Now...x5 Fireballs at lvl5 is fun but you dont want to do this type of thing very often. The DM can just buff HP or use more Counterspell, force more Concentration rolls.

BETTER WAY TO THINK LIKE A SORCERER

Scenario - Party vs a mob of mooks and a caster in the back. Low level.

Typically, party has to hack through the mob before getting to the caster and hope nothing too bad happens, or party archer/rogue can deal with it.

Our lvl3 Sorcerer has it covered. Quicken Minor Illusion with Max's Earth Grasp. Caster likely has no STR so it gets Restrained and eats 2d6 PLUS Line-of-Sight is blocked from the Minor Illusion you placed 5 foot in front of it.

Enemy Caster cant cast a LoS spell(most spells), and has to burn an Action to either A)try to break free, B)try to examine the illusion. Sorc can of course, make another Illusion next turn if needed.
Enemy Caster Action Economy is shut down, which may not have happened if left to a party Archer/Rogue due to time to reach or not enough damage to subdue.

THIS is why Sorcerers are very different from Wizards, not just the Player's personality.

To continue the analogy.

In tier 3 the ATV gets a rocket slapped on it and the racecar becomes the mach5.

In tier 4 both drivers trade in for a TARDIS.

It is a bit personality dependant in that both solve the same problems with similar tools but wildly differing approaches.

(I personally prefer the racecar)

Note: Past a point sorc gets more spells/day than any reasonable metric requires. It's the highest by a pretty wide margin and warlocks cry every time.

[InspectorG]

(I personally prefer the racecar)

Note: Past a point sorc gets more spells/day than any reasonable metric requires. It's the highest by a pretty wide margin and warlocks cry every time.

I prefer the racecar as well...

Though, Sorc has to balance cost of features, Metas, etc. with those slots. I got my fill of Wizards in 2e(when they survived past lvl5). IMO. Sorcs are slept on. At higher level, Scrolls, Items and party composition can mitigate the lack of spell list.

[Mercurias]

In my experience with 5e playing a Half-Elf Wild Magic Sorc as well as a Fire Genasi Evocation Wizard, I honestly have a hard time pitting the two against each other. They play very different roles!

Sorcerers tend to lack a Sorcerer’s general magic/intelligence roll utility, and they have a much smaller pool of spells. They make up for it with creative use of metamagic to maximize the utility of their spell pool, as well as contributing to the party’s skill checks with their girthy Charisma modifier. Sorcerers often lean hard into one or two types of spells (e.g., damage spells, control spells) by necessity, which means they can get more use out of Feats like Elemental Affinity. They can also get a lot of use from Inspiring Leader.

Wizards lack the social skill or presence of Sorcs, as well as their metamagic, but in turn they have a much, much larger spell library as well as Ritual Magic. Big Wizard Brains are great for Investigation, History, Religion, and Nature checks...And that’s about it. They’re unmatched in a much more narrow niche, and easier than a Sorcerer to optimize, but outside of their niche they often have a hard time.

If you’re looking for a fun and interesting Sorcerer, I’d recommend giving a Fireball-chucking Half-Elf Draconic Sorcerer or Social-Casting Tiefling Divine Soul Sorcerer a try. They’re popular choices and add a lot of narrative flavor options to the game.

If you’re interested in a Wizard, you might like a Yuan-ti Enchantment Wizard or Forest Elf Illusion Wizard a shot. Both have a lot of options to control a battlefield as well as solve problems presented to the group in creative ways!

[DevilMcam]

Wizards are generalists spellcasters While sorcerers are specialists.
Heighen spells makes sorcerers the best controlers,
Twin makes them the best buffers
Subtle the best social casters
And quicken give them a lot of raw power.
They even get to plunder the cleric spell list, wings,or the darkness devil sight combo depending on you origin.
The catch is that they only usually can do one of these things well

Wizards on the other hand know the right spell for every possible situation and a bunch of impossible ones as well.

Another defining point is that wuzard ate exceptionnally good at planning, while sorcerer ate better at improvising

[RSP]

Another defining point is that wuzard ate exceptionnally good at planning, while sorcerer ate better at improvising

Wouldn’t Wiz also be better at improvising, since they have more spells available? Clearly they have more tools available to improvise with.

[InspectorG]

Wouldn’t Wiz also be better at improvising, since they have more spells available? Clearly they have more tools available to improvise with.

Improvising if they have time, yes.

Improvising the actual Action Economy? Not as much.

[RSP]

Improvising if they have time, yes.

Improvising the actual Action Economy? Not as much.

Neither of those was what I was referring to.

I meant a Wizard has more spells available to them at any given time due to the difference between Sorc’s Spells Known, and a Wizard’s Spells Prepared + Ritual Castings.

The Wizard will always have more “tools” available to improvise with in a situation.

Wizards, therefore, are better at improvising than Sorcerers.

[Nhorianscum]

Neither of those was what I was referring to.

I meant a Wizard has more spells available to them at any given time due to the difference between Sorc’s Spells Known, and a Wizard’s Spells Prepared + Ritual Castings.

The Wizard will always have more “tools” available to improvise with in a situation.

Wizards, therefore, are better at improvising than Sorcerers.

Moving past the ever present meme above me...

Eh, sorta?

It's a bit of a swiss army knife vs swiss army sledgehammer scenario.

The hammer tends to solve any given problem in a much shorter time, but it takes more effort and can leave a mess if you're not careful.

[RSP]

Moving past the ever present meme above me...

Eh, sorta?

It's a bit of a swiss army knife vs swiss army sledgehammer scenario.

The hammer tends to solve any given problem in a much shorter time, but it takes more effort and can leave a mess if you're not careful.

Not sort of. Sorc is limited in spell selection. Yes they metamagic, but that doesn’t create new effects with spells: it augments what spells can already do.

A 5th level Wizard will have ~3 more spells ready, at hand, over a 5th level Warlock (and a better selection of spells as well). They also have Rituals to use as well and probably a familiar.

At tenth level, it’s probably 4 more spells + rituals, and at 20, a ridiculous 12 more spells + rituals.

Wizard has a lot more to work with in terms of improvising at any given moment.