Best class/subclass for pyromancer

[moonfly7]

I'm wanting to play a fire based tiefling caster, preferably a wizard. I was planning on going wizard, taking the Lore Wizard UAC subclass(my DM loves it and allows it) and making all my spell damage fire. But I wanted to see if there were better options before commiting to it.

[ezekielraiden]

I'm wanting to play a fire based tiefling caster, preferably a wizard. I was planning on going wizard, taking the Lore Wizard UAC subclass(my DM loves it and allows it) and making all my spell damage fire. But I wanted to see if there were better options before commiting to it.

Alright so....you probably have no better option. Because that UA subclass failed to materialize as a real class due to being blatantly overpowered compared to other Wizard subclasses. The ability to force a save of your choosing once a day? Changing the damage type of ANY spell to whatever element you like WHENEVER you like? Burning first-level slots to add 2d10 FORCE damage?? At 10, swapping out a prepared spell on a short rest??? Casting a spell from ANY spell list once a day????????? Holy crap, you hit the jackpot if you convinced your DM to let you run with this. This subclass breaks nearly every limitation the 5e Wizard has, and makes it straight-up superior to the Sorcerer in every conceivable way: power, flexibility, breadth, total spells. Lore Master has it all. Pretty sure the only significant thing a Sorcerer can do that you can't is Subtle Spell--your class and/or subclass features blow away almost every application of Sorcery Points.

HOWEVER, should your DM re-evaluate later on and ask you to rebuild the character, Fire Draconic Sorcerer (aka Brass, Gold, or Red) is your best bet, especially if you're allowed to use the stuff from the UA: Class Feature Variants article.

Regardless of what you play, be sure to pick up Elemental Adept (Fire). It won't affect your (utterly ridiculous) 2d10 force damage, but all the other damage you deal will always be fire no matter what the spell is, and being able to ignore resistance to Fire damage is insanely useful.

[Angelalex242]

Being a tiefling with flames of Phlegthos doesn't hurt either.

[moonfly7]

Alright so....you probably have no better option. Because that UA subclass failed to materialize as a real class due to being blatantly overpowered compared to other Wizard subclasses. The ability to force a save of your choosing once a day? Changing the damage type of ANY spell to whatever element you like WHENEVER you like? Burning first-level slots to add 2d10 FORCE damage?? At 10, swapping out a prepared spell on a short rest??? Casting a spell from ANY spell list once a day????????? Holy crap, you hit the jackpot if you convinced your DM to let you run with this. This subclass breaks nearly every limitation the 5e Wizard has, and makes it straight-up superior to the Sorcerer in every conceivable way: power, flexibility, breadth, total spells. Lore Master has it all. Pretty sure the only significant thing a Sorcerer can do that you can't is Subtle Spell--your class and/or subclass features blow away almost every application of Sorcery Points.

HOWEVER, should your DM re-evaluate later on and ask you to rebuild the character, Fire Draconic Sorcerer (aka Brass, Gold, or Red) is your best bet, especially if you're allowed to use the stuff from the UA: Class Feature Variants article.

Regardless of what you play, be sure to pick up Elemental Adept (Fire). It won't affect your (utterly ridiculous) 2d10 force damage, but all the other damage you deal will always be fire no matter what the spell is, and being able to ignore resistance to Fire damage is insanely useful.
So, for the most part I agree that it is pretty darn OP, but the save thing is changing an already existing save to one other save once a day. So useful yes, and good because you can target weak saves if you know the stats of what your fighting, but not that feature isn't really broken like the extra 2d10 force damage. As for the damage subbing, I don't see a problem with it. Yeah you can swap damage to avoid resistance, but other than that it's mostly just a fun flavor feature, yes it's definitely useful, but it's not broken. Totally agree about everything after 2nd level though. It's why I wanted another option. But my favorite part of this subclass is the damage substitution(my DMs favorite part too) so if you've got another option that keeps that I'm all for it.

Being a tiefling with flames of Phlegthos doesn't hurt either.

That is the current plan, also definitely going to grab elemental adept. Let's me burn even the toughest jerks.
Also, using mainly fire subbed spells is probably a hindrance considering that it's the most commonly resisted damage type after poison. But this is for flavor so it's not really an issue. Although I can't wait for flaming magic missile, and armor of agathys that burns instead of freezing(DM says substituting that damage is fine, and I'm taking the spell via magic initiate.)

Oh also I'm 100% open to homebrew.

[ezekielraiden]

How do you feel about playing a religious character? I wrote up a Silver Pyromancer PrC that could work if you're interested. It's not particularly overpowered, though in combination with the ability to make any spell deal fire damage it might become so. (Its features depend on "fire spells--spells that deal fire damage" so....) It also has an answer for anything outright immune to fire: causing fire spells to deal radiant damage.

As noted though, it's specifically for devoutly religious arcane spellcasters, so not every player will be interested.

[moonfly7]

How do you feel about playing a religious character? I wrote up a Silver Pyromancer PrC that could work if you're interested. It's not particularly overpowered, though in combination with the ability to make any spell deal fire damage it might become so. (Its features depend on "fire spells--spells that deal fire damage" so....) It also has an answer for anything outright immune to fire: causing fire spells to deal radiant damage.

As noted though, it's specifically for devoutly religious arcane spellcasters, so not every player will be interested.

That's a nope. DM does not like prestige classes. We had a DM once who implemented them for the first game we ever played, but he was NOT a good DM, and all of the homebrew he ended up forcing on us was broken and not fun at all, so stuff that reminds the veterans from that game of his stuff generally leaves a bad taste in our mouths.
Dude was the same reason that we took forever to realise that not all psionics are bad. Thank you for the offer though that sounds dope, but my guy isn't religious.

[Bobthewizard]

I'd like to suggest red/gold/brass dragon sorcerer 6/ evocation wizard 2/ sorcerer X. You get the elemental affinity and empowered meta magic from sorcerer and the ability to sculpt the fire from the evoker. Take the elemental adept fire feat and hope you don't run into too many devils.

credit to @theUser for this build

[moonfly7]

I'd like to suggest red/gold/brass dragon sorcerer 6/ evocation wizard 2/ sorcerer X. You get the elemental affinity and empowered meta magic from sorcerer and the ability to sculpt the fire from the evoker. Take the elemental adept fire feat and hope you don't run into too many devils.

credit to @theUser for this build

I might take those levels in wizard at some point, sounds pretty fun to me, but me and my DM talked, and after I told him I wasn't comfortable with the power of the higher level Lore college abilities, and after discussing my character, he recommended the Pyromancy sorcerer blood line. it comes with fire resistance(Moot point) extra fire damage to an area when I cast fire spells, and the ability to bypass fire resistance at 6th level, which is the level this character will be. So I'll be saving a feat slot, an eventual boost to the flames of phlegathos, and my DM said it was fine if I wanted to make all my damaging spells fire damage, since it would mostly be a detriment.

At some point though I might just take those 2 wizard levels for sculpt spell. Gives me access to some new spell's, sculpt spell, and it costs me nothing. although careful spell metamagics already do sculpt spells, albeight at a cost so it might not be worth it.

[Bobthewizard]

Careful cost sorcery points and only lets them make their save. They still take half damage. I only use careful on hypnotic pattern and fear but it's amazing for those two spells.

Sculpt spells costs nothing, lets allies save, and lets them take no damage.

[CTurbo]

I like either Pyromancy Sorcerer 20 or Pyromancy Sorcerer 18/Evocation Wizard 2

In addition to maxing Cha, the Tiefling has some pretty solid racial feats if they're available (Flames of Phlegethos and Infernal Constitution)

Alert and Lucky are great feats too, and any solo class Sorcerer would appreciate Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate.

[Emongnome777]

I suspect it’s far less op than what’s been discussed, but I feel like this discussion isn’t complete unless the Wildfire druid (UA) at least gets a passing mention.

So there, I mentioned it. I am playing one right now, just got to 3rd. Seems like it will be pretty fun.

[Angelalex242]

Infernal constitution is downright hax. Half damage from ice and poison and advantage on poison saves? It's probably the single best survivability feat out there.

I wish Aasimar had a celestial equivalent.

[moonfly7]

Careful cost sorcery points and only lets them make their save. They still take half damage. I only use careful on hypnotic pattern and fear but it's amazing for those two spells.

Sculpt spells costs nothing, lets allies save, and lets them take no damage.
Huh. your right. I never caught that. Definitley changes my outlook.

I like either Pyromancy Sorcerer 20 or Pyromancy Sorcerer 18/Evocation Wizard 2

In addition to maxing Cha, the Tiefling has some pretty solid racial feats if they're available (Flames of Phlegethos and Infernal Constitution)

Alert and Lucky are great feats too, and any solo class Sorcerer would appreciate Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate.
Yeah, I'm definitley taking those 2 levels wizard, since the sorcerer capstone isn't really worth it and I lose no spell slot progression, and gain extra spells and sculpt, which is very nice.

I suspect it’s far less op than what’s been discussed, but I feel like this discussion isn’t complete unless the Wildfire druid (UA) at least gets a passing mention.

So there, I mentioned it. I am playing one right now, just got to 3rd. Seems like it will be pretty fun.
Yeah, but I'd rather not play a minion mancer kind of guy, this time. I normally greatly enjoy having a commandable sidekick like that. good suggestion though, since it is all about burning things.

Infernal constitution is downright hax. Half damage from ice and poison and advantage on poison saves? It's probably the single best survivability feat out there.

I wish Aasimar had a celestial equivalent.

yeah, it is a pretty nice thing to have on top of the fire resistance. My feat load out is going to look something like:
Flames of phlegathos, Magic initiate for armor of agathys, and infernal constituition. back when I was going to go wizard I was going to take elemental adept too, but with pyromancy I get to ignore fire resistance at 6th level anyways, and at 18th level I consider immunity to be resistance, which is nice. the damage boost form adept is nice, but phlegathos lets me reroll ones for free so it's not something I need, and since all my spells are fire damage I don't need to take empowered spell.

[Nhorianscum]

Huh. your right. I never caught that. Definitley changes my outlook.

Yeah, I'm definitley taking those 2 levels wizard, since the sorcerer capstone isn't really worth it and I lose no spell slot progression, and gain extra spells and sculpt, which is very nice.

Yeah, but I'd rather not play a minion mancer kind of guy, this time. I normally greatly enjoy having a commandable sidekick like that. good suggestion though, since it is all about burning things.


yeah, it is a pretty nice thing to have on top of the fire resistance. My feat load out is going to look something like:
Flames of phlegathos, Magic initiate for armor of agathys, and infernal constituition. back when I was going to go wizard I was going to take elemental adept too, but with pyromancy I get to ignore fire resistance at 6th level anyways, and at 18th level I consider immunity to be resistance, which is nice. the damage boost form adept is nice, but phlegathos lets me reroll ones for free so it's not something I need, and since all my spells are fire damage I don't need to take empowered spell.

With UA in play Zeal/Grave Cleric 2 + Pyromancer/Draconic Sorc is sorta the default "One-Spell-Man" build for fire elemental things if you don't want to lose slot progression.

[moonfly7]

With UA in play Zeal/Grave Cleric 2 + Pyromancer/Draconic Sorc is sorta the default "One-Spell-Man" build for fire elemental things if you don't want to lose slot progression.
never heard of zeal cleric, and I don't quite get why grave cleric would help for a fire build.
going to check out zeal cleric though, sounds cool.

[Bloodcloud]

If you are ok with UA... Maybe ask for a fire eldritch blast and go infernal warlock.
I know the warlock in my game feels pretty good about that.

[Amechra]

Sigh... no one here is talking about my favorite subclass for a pyromaniac Sorcerer - the Phoenix Sorcerer. (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf)

By 6th level, you'd have...

• The ability to light fires with a touch (mostly just thematic),
• A 1/long fire-related super mode, where you get to add your Charisma to fire damage and deal fire damage to everyone you touch in melee (because you're on fire).
• 1/long, you can explode instead of falling unconscious when you hit 0 hp. This sets you back to 1 hp and hits everyone within 10ft with fire damage.
• At 14th level, your non-cantrip fire spells heal you, which is pretty sweet.

Sure, it isn't as directly useful than a Pyromancy Sorcerer, but it's generally more interesting.

[moonfly7]

Sigh... no one here is talking about my favorite subclass for a pyromaniac Sorcerer - the Phoenix Sorcerer. (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf)

By 6th level, you'd have...

• The ability to light fires with a touch (mostly just thematic),
• A 1/long fire-related super mode, where you get to add your Charisma to fire damage and deal fire damage to everyone you touch in melee (because you're on fire).
• 1/long, you can explode instead of falling unconscious when you hit 0 hp. This sets you back to 1 hp and hits everyone within 10ft with fire damage.
• At 14th level, your non-cantrip fire spells heal you, which is pretty sweet.

Sure, it isn't as directly useful than a Pyromancy Sorcerer, but it's generally more interesting.

My DM and I looked at both that and the pyromancey blood line. Ultimately we felt Phoenix was way less balanced and it didn't really fit the theme I was cultivating, so I settled on pyromancer.

Also my spell choice ended being full blown blaster. After choosing my spells, all but 2 are AOEs, and only shield and mage armor are non damaging. Only noticed when I finished.

I've also realised that I have 2, soon to be 3, features that encourage everyone on the battlefield to not touch me. Flames of phlegathos, and 2 pyromancy features let me just torch anyone who gets near me while I'm casting.

Also, I've noticed combat very rarely lasts longer than 10 rounds most sessions. Generally it's rare to make it to 5 with a party of 6 like we have. What this tells me is that I can cast leveled spells every round and not care because I've got 10 slots. Sure it'll probably screw me over, but until it does it'll be very impressive.