variant Rogue House Rule Feedback

[dmhelp]

I've been running a no multiclassing, high magic, game with modified standard array (17, 15, 13, 13, 11, 8). A single classed Rogue is the only class that I would never play (I'd add a 5 dip for Extra Attack) so I feel I need to give that option to the players. Most of the feedback has been that the variant Rogue is too weak, although it has also been called power creep. It doesn't have to be equal to a 15 Rogue/5 Gloom Stalker since it is a non multiclassing game.

So the advantage of the standard Rogue is higher Sneak Attack damage which is especially true when it isn't your turn (on a reaction).
The advantage of the variant Rogue is you are more likely to gain your Sneak Attack damage (if you are having trouble hitting) and you are less dependent on Sneak Attack in the rare situation where you can't get Sneak Attack.

What is the appropriate number of Sneak Attack Dice to give to a Rogue with Extra Attack in a no multiclassing game (so again, we don't need to compare it to optimum multiclassing builds)?

Here is my current version:

variant Rogue (may still choose standard Rogue) - at level 5 gains Extra Attack; Sneak Attack progresses every 4 levels instead of every 2 levels, plus an additional 1d6 @ level 19 (i.e. 2d6 @ 5, 3d6 @ 9, 4d6 @ 13, 5d6 @ 17, and 6d6 @ 19)


Assuming +2 weapons and 20 stat with no feat without crits at level 5 (anything but variant human):
variant Rogue 5 CBE hand crossbow 31.5 + 7 sneak = 38.5
variant Rogue 5 shortsword 21 + offhand 5.5 + 7 sneak = 33.5
standard Rogue 5 CBE hand crossbow 21 + 10.5 sneak = 31.5
standard Rogue 5 shortsword 10.5 + offhand 5.5 + 10.5 sneak = 26.5

Assuming +3 weapons and 20 stat without crits:
variant Rogue 19+ CBE hand crossbow 34.5 + 30 SS + 21 sneak = 85.5
Rogue 19+ CBE hand crossbow 23 + 35 sneak + 20 SS = 78
Rogue 19+ DW rapier 20 + 35 sneak = 55
variant Rogue 19+ DW rapier 32.5 + 21 sneak = 53.5

[Ortho]

Sneak Attack triggers once per turn, not once per attack.

What you've done here is you've effectively halved the Rogue's damage output.

[JellyPooga]

1) Rogues don't need Extra Attack.

2) If you think Rogue needs Extra Attack, you're really missing the point of how the Rogue functions.

3) Sacrificing half your Sneak Attack for Extra Attack is...
...
...just no.

4) Rogues don't need Extra Attack. Yes, I said it twice.

5) If you want Extra Attack, don't play a Rogue.

6) Ranger is pretty close to a Rogue with Extra Attack; why not try that instead? Valour Bard is sort of like a magical swordy rogue with Extra Attack; worth a shot?

7) If you just want DPR from bonus damage and Extra Attack, Paladin called; he says you might be interested in an offer.

8) Seriously. Rogues aren't about DPR. Extra Attack really isn't neccesary. Yeah, I said it again.

9) Did I mention that Rogues don't need Extra Attack to be competetive in combat?

10) Sorry to rag on your houserule, but I just can't fathom why you feel it's needed. As mentioned, there's other classes that, if you want Extra Attack, offer the goods you want; Bard, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Warlock all offer Extra Attack (or a facsimile) and that's just the PHB. Why Rogue too? The addition of Extra Attack to the Rogue chassis really achieves little; either in terms of damage, flavour or utility, so what are you hoping to achieve? The key to good houserules is to KISS; don't try and fix something that ain't broke. And the Rogue? The Rogue ain't broke.

[Lupine]

*Clip*

This. At my table, the full classed wood elf rogue is the most powerful of the party (when the player pays attention.)
Uncanny dodge and evasion, coupled with max dex+studded leather makes one of the most damage-avoiding characters in the game (even if it isn’t built for hitpoints. Our rogue took tough to compensate for that.)
Add in sneak attack for those sweet damage dice, and you end up having damage potentials that can almost match caster spells, at will. Yes, AT WILL. Rogue, if you ask me, is one of the most powerful classes in the game.
If you really, really think you need a second attack, to raise the chances of that second hit, then I advise you to look towards duel wielding. For the low, low price of not being able approach, attack, and disengage in the same turn —something now other class can do endlessly— you can get a second chance to hit that sneak attack.

Seriously. If you don’t like the rogue build, don’t play it, but DO NOT mess with one of the most mobile, highest dpr, interesting, and fun classes in the game.

[Lunali]

But I will play a Rogue in a multiclassing game. It plays the same. But you cap out at 8d6 sneak instead of 10d6. And you get extra attack. In the case of Ranger you also get hunter's mark and either collossus slayer or Gloom Stalker glory. If that is the only way I'll play a Rogue then I feel I should give my players the option, even though it is a no multiclassing game.

I understand that Sneak Attack is once per turn. The damage calculations reflect that and the bonus attack from either two-weapon fighting or crossbow expert (the bonus attack damage is the same no matter which route you choose, if you use cunning action your damage will drop by the same amount no matter which option you choose).

I was asking the theoretical question of how many sneak attack dice is second attack worth to you. Does no one have an opinion on that? You don't have to play the variant Rogue, but some people may want to play it. You are still have the same mobility, interest, and fun. Some of your damage is in the form of an extra attack.

You've more or less answered the question, extra attack is worth roughly 2d6 damage of sneak attack.

[Veldrenor]

But I will play a Rogue in a multiclassing game. It plays the same. But you cap out at 8d6 sneak instead of 10d6. And you get extra attack. In the case of Ranger you also get hunter's mark and either collossus slayer or Gloom Stalker glory. If that is the only way I'll play a Rogue then I feel I should give my players the option, even though it is a no multiclassing game.

I understand that Sneak Attack is once per turn. The damage calculations reflect that and the bonus attack from either two-weapon fighting or crossbow expert (the bonus attack damage is the same no matter which route you choose, if you use cunning action your damage will drop by the same amount no matter which option you choose).

I was asking the theoretical question of how many sneak attack dice is second attack worth to you. Does no one have an opinion on that? You don't have to play the variant Rogue, but some people may want to play it. You are still have the same mobility, interest, and fun. Some of your damage is in the form of an extra attack.

The answer is likely "none." Even in your example the answer is "none": your rogue/ranger multiclass doesn't actually lose any sneak attack damage, it just gets shuffled around a little (hunter's mark + colossus slayer = 1d8+1d6 vs the 2d6 lost sneak attack damage).

[Man_Over_Game]

If you want an extra attack option for when you miss your Sneak Attack, just use daggers. Start the fight with two, throw one at a time and only throw the second one when you miss.

It's basically the Rogue's capstone on a Short Rest, all just by using the basic rules.

Sure, you could upgrade it with Crossbow Expert, but it's not necessary. How often do you expect someone to miss if they have a maxed out attack attribute and are only attacking once per round? I suspect maybe once every 3 rounds?

Coincidentally, the average length of most players' encounters is around 4 rounds. You really just need to nullify a single miss, for the most part.

It's that reason the Scout is actually one of the best throwing-weapons specialists, as the Rogue isn't gimped by the whole "single weapon draw" problem of throwing weapons, and they don't have to use their BA for running away like most Rogues.

[JellyPooga]

I was asking the theoretical question of how many sneak attack dice is second attack worth to you. Does no one have an opinion on that? You don't have to play the variant Rogue, but some people may want to play it. You are still have the same mobility, interest, and fun. Some of your damage is in the form of an extra attack.

The answer to your question only partly lies within your calculations. According to your post, your variant Rogue deals more damage with Extra Attack than regular Rogue. Just keep dialling it down until the numbers match. The only things you might want to be wary of are the impact of hit rates and advantage (some sources of which apply to single attacks rather than all).

It might also be worth considering things that ride off of Extra Attack; your variant Rogue becomes, for example, the hands down best grappler in the game. If that's intended, fine, but it's something to consider. Also consider the possibility of things like using Extra Attack to shove prone (with Expertise in Athletics) then Sneak Attack. When you add something like Extra Attack, you really have to think in terms not just of raw damage, but the other implications of the Class Features it's going to interact with and that includes those of subclasses. For examlle; an Assassin Rogue getting autocrits with Extra Attack is much more explosive than with a single attack and a Thief Rogue with two turns in the first round can do an awful lot more with those additional attacks.

So...by your calculations, at level 5, Extra Attack is doing the same amount of damage as 3d6 Sneak Attack (i.e. your variant Rogue shouldn't be getting any Sneak Attack until at least level 6), but your calculations also assume +2 weapons and 20 Dex at lvl.5, which seems like a high base line to me. If that's normal or what you have planned for your game, then yeah, base your calcs on it, but you might return more reliable data with a lower expectation.

[WadeWay33]

*snip*

Rouges are already one of the best balanced classes in the game. If you REALLY want that extra attack, take some fighter/bard/warlock/barbarian/I’m-probably-missing-some-of-them levels and get it that way. Either way, rogues are effective in AND out of combat, and, frankly, need no changes imo.

[JellyPooga]

Situation 1:
You are in a high magic no multiclassing game with a level 19 Rogue (10d6 sneak dice) with multiple +3 weapons and other magic items. You are questing to free Tharzidun the Chained. Your friend has been pissing you off by basically copying your character (down to the last Expertise) except getting Extra Attack with 8d6 sneak dice (level 19 pure Rogue). Aside from how you feel about your friend, how do you feel about your character's power?
A. I laugh at my friend because my character is superior.
B. I'm happy with how our characters compare.
C. I'm pissed that my friend got the better deal.

If it's a choice between those three, I'd take (C) because 2d6 Sneak Attack is worth less than Extra Attack. Extra Attack is a very valuable feature; as mentioned in my last post, it opens up a whole slew of opportunities for the Rogue because of their other features, like Expertise and Cunning Action. Sneak Attack is just extra damage, Extra Attack is so much more than that. When, in my first post on this topic, I mentioned giving up half your Sneak Attack for Extra Attack...I meant that Rogue needs to give up more. Like a third of the progression at least. I mean, compare your (original) variant Rogue to regular Rogue at level 5. Regular Rogue is only a single die of Sneak Attack behind the variant, but the variant has Extra Attack. A clear imbalance. At level 7, it looks a little better for regular Rogue at 4d6 vs. 2d6 Sneak Attack, but then 5:3 at 9th level again starts looking less fair. Now look at level 20, where the Sneak Attack difference is 10:6. That's a difference of 4d6 (avg. 14) damage. A +3 Rapier with Dex 20 deals 1d8+8 (avg. 12.5) damage. It's pretty close. So if the damage difference is negligible, or even in favour of the Variant (which it is in many cases) what is the variant giving up for the additional versatility and reliability of having Extra Attack? If the answer is nothing, then the houserule needs to be reassessed.

Gaining Sneak Attack every 6 levels (a 1/3 rate) looks a little better. Extra Attack at 5th for the variant, but still only rocking 1d6 Sneak Attack makes the damage comparisons about equal (Dex 16):
Regular: 1d8+3 Rapier +3d6 Sneak Attack = average 18
Variant: 2d8+6 Rapier +1d6 Sneak Attack = average 18.5
Then the Variant gets a boost to 2d6 the very next level, putting them ahead in terms of damage, but they have the additional utility of EA and besides, it doesn't last long because at 7th, Regular Rogue catches up and overtakes at 9th. By level 11 the Variant has dropped behind in damage output, but finally gets their 3rd d6. Let's take a look (Dex 18, +1 weapon):
Regular: 1d8+5 Rapier +6d6 Sneak Attack = average 30.5
Variant: 2d8+10 Rapier +3d6 Sneak Attack = average 29.5
At the Tier 3 break-point, the Variant Rogue still has very comparable damage, but also still has the added utility of Extra Attack. Let's look at Tier 4, level 17 (+3 weapon, Dex 20):
Regular: 1d8+8 Rapier +9d6 Sneak Attack = average 42
Variant: 2d8+16 Rapier +4d6 Sneak Attack = average 39
With only some rudimentary calculations, even at lvl.20 the Regular Rogue is really only looking at an average bonus of 6.5 damage over the Variant Rogue, without considering the impact of other things EA is capable of (e.g. Shove), or things such as subclass, feats, magic items, buffs and so forth. So yeah, even at gaining 1d6 Sneak attack every 6 levels above 1st, the comparison is pretty close in terms of damage, which makes me think Rogue should be giving up more for Extra Attack. It might even be possible that giving up Sneak Attack progression altogether in exchange for Extra Attack, considering what a Rogue can do with it, might be the fairest/balanced option, but that leads to the question of why you're playing a Rogue in the first place.


Situation 2:
You are playing in a Tier 2 or 3 one shot. The rules are standard but no multiclassing except for one house rule. Your DM announces that Rogues are underpowered so all Rogues get Extra Attack for free at 5th level. How do you feel?
A. Rogues are now overpowered compared to the other Extra Attack classes. There is less reason to play a non Rogue.
B. Rogues were underpowered before, so that sounds like a step in the right direction.

I'd question my GMs concept of what is and isn't overpowered/underpowered, for a start. Rogues are probably one of the better balanced Classes in the game; not the most powerful, just very well balanced. If my GM thinks they're underpowered, I'm going to ask myself if they know the rules well enough for me to enjoy a game run by them. I don't mean it in a nasty way, but a GM that doesn't understand the rules they're playing by is often the kind of GM that makes silly mistakes like throwing a Fireball at a lvl.2 party, not realising it'd be a TPK because they "didn't think it would be that bad".

I have trouble enough not playing a Rogue in the first place, so assuming I believed the GM was capable of running a decent game, if he threw Extra Attack at me for free, I'd laugh myself all the way to the bank; way overpowered (answer A). Why would you ever bother playing a Fighter or Ranger if Rogue came with free Extra Attack?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Higher sneak attack is going to be better for what a Rogue does, and it gets even better in certain parties.

You can sneak attack once on your turn, and once on someone else's turn if you can get a reaction attack. You can get reaction attacks from a Battle Master Fighter using Commander’s Strike, or an Order domain Cleric using any 1st level or higher spell on you, or the Sentinel feat, or a normal opportunity attack, etc.

Sneak attack dice get doubled on a critical hit. You can automatically get a critical hit if the target is paralyzed or unconscious. So if you have someone casting Sleep, or Hold Person, using drow poison, or any number of other spells or effects that cause paralysis or unconsciousness, more sneak attack dice are better. If they're unconscious due to being asleep, the first hit wakes them up and you don't get more than one automatic critical hit.

On top of that, if you attack with advantage due to being hidden, only your first attack gets advantage because that reveals your presence and position to your opponents. So if you have multiple attacks, only the first would be able to sneak attack this way.

[Veldrenor]

Valdrenor I think is making the argument for giving all rogues Extra Attack....

Apologies, I could've worded it better. That was not the argument I was attempting to make (I think rogues are terrifically balanced as-is and don't need extra attack or other such tweaks). It seemed to me like that was the argument that you were trying to make. You said:


A single classed Rogue is the only class that I would never play (I'd add a 5 dip for Extra Attack) so I feel I need to give that option to the players.

and:


But I will play a Rogue in a multiclassing game. It plays the same. But you cap out at 8d6 sneak instead of 10d6. And you get extra attack. In the case of Ranger you also get hunter's mark and either collossus slayer or Gloom Stalker glory.

Those statements say to me that you think that a rogue without extra attack isn't worth playing, but you're not willing to sacrifice any of a rogue's sneak attack damage to get that extra attack (since, as I pointed out, a ranger dip just moves the 2d6 damage around). If I misunderstood what it was you were trying to say, I apologize again.

If you really want your variant rogue to work like your rogue/ranger multiclass, then why not make your variant rogue function like your rogue/ranger multiclass? Ditch the level 16-20 features, re-distribute its other features across the new level range, and mix in the features you'd want from the ranger dip. If that's too complicated, then you could say "we're playing a no-multiclass game with one exception: rogues may take up to 5 levels in fighter/ranger/(insert extra attack class here)."

[Yakk]

+2 weapons at level 5? Ok.

Find a DPR calculator. Your variant rogue looks like a Fighter 5 + Some Rogue using the "wrong" weapon style and no action surges.

Removing Sneak Attack at 3 before you change Rogue 5 is probably a bad plan.

Remember if you are going to have damage spikes, have them at 5/11/17.

The best pure rogue melee damage dealer is a booming blade one. The extra d8s is worth the lack of DW sneak-attack or crit-fishing. SS/XBE isn't very good next to it. SS is much better once you have extra attack (and XBE), I'll admit.

[Veldrenor]

My position is that 6d6 sneak with extra attack is balanced in a single classed game (progression shown in my original house rule post). I believe that a /5 splash is significantly more powerful and I wouldn't think it was fair to the other single classed characters. This is why I was trying to have a base class variant.

Every time I propose it I get feedback that I'm nerfing the Rogue. Which is why I try to emphasize that you can still play the standard Rogue. So far one person, JellyPooga, has voted for 4d6 as the magic number. I vote for 6d6. I'm interested to what dice everyone else would pick to get to choice B in situation 1 (balance with your variant Rogue friend).

I guess I'm just not understanding the intent behind the variant. You've said that you would never play a single-classed rogue, that you'd only play a rogue if you took five levels in Ranger to get Extra Attack and the other ranger goodies. If you think the rogue is so weak that you'd never be interested in playing a single-classed rogue, then why are you trying to balance your variant against it? If a single-classed rogue is too weak, then wouldn't an equal-powered variant be too weak as well?

[Hytheter]

What you've done here is you've effectively halved the Rogue's damage output.

Even if you're assuming that every attack hits, an extra attack would still be worth at least 2d6, almost 3d6 with max dex and a d8 weapon, and even more if you have any per-hit damage bonuses. Using OP's proposed progression it would actually be buff at level 5, and even at max level you're looking at basically 9d6 vs 10d6 - hardly half. Not to mention you'd get more crit damage on average (less powerful but much more often) and a much higher chance of actually landing sneak attack altogether.

It is a damage nerf at high level, but by far less than half and with the bonus of being more consistent and flexible, especially on the off chance sneak attack is impossible. And at lower levels, it's just better - they're about on par even at levels 9-11 or so.


I guess I'm just not understanding the intent behind the variant. You've said that you would never play a single-classed rogue, that you'd only play a rogue if you took five levels in Ranger to get Extra Attack and the other ranger goodies. If you think the rogue is so weak that you'd never be interested in playing a single-classed rogue, then why are you trying to balance your variant against it? If a single-classed rogue is too weak, then wouldn't an equal-powered variant be too weak as well?

I'm assuming it's not about power; it's just his personal preference that rogues have an extra attack.

[Nagog]

I'd just give them a Bonus Action Attack class feature. You can still only use sneak attack once per turn, but you can also attack with your bonus action should the first attack miss. That gives them a bit less options (as they'd lose out on all of their Cunning Action) but it's a good backup to have.

[OldTrees1]

I'd just give them a Bonus Action Attack class feature. You can still only use sneak attack once per turn, but you can also attack with your bonus action should the first attack miss. That gives them a bit less options (as they'd lose out on all of their Cunning Action) but it's a good backup to have.

Rogues already have a bonus action attack class feature. Rogue sneak attack limits their melee choices to a subset one handed weapons and the sneak attack dice overwhelm the size of the weapon die. If a rogue wants an extra attack, using 2 daggers is a good solution.

Giving Rogue Extra Attack, for increased chance of landing their 1 sneak attack per round, increases them from 2 to 3 attacks.
Already hit: 1-(miss)^2
Still miss: (miss)^3
Now hit: (1-miss)(miss)^2
Assuming a 50% accuracy to make the math simple, this 3rd attack increases sneak attack by 16.66...%
Already hit = 3/4. Now hit = 1/8. 1/8th is 1/6th of 3/4ths.
Assuming a 75% accuracy to make the math harder, this 3rd attack increases sneak attack by 5%
Already hit = 15/16. Now hit = 3/64th is 1/20th of 60/64ths.
So the 3rd attack contributes a tiny amount of the sneak attack damage. Between 0.5 and 2 dice for a relatively accurate shot.

The main source of extra damage is the magic weapon, ability modifier, and weapon die.
1d4+5 ~= 2d6.
1d4+5+1+2d6 ~= 4d6
So what kind of magic weapon are they likely to find?

Costing 4 dice sounds reasonable but very suspicious. Why do they want a 3rd attack? And if they are not using the bonus action attack, why give them extra attack?


As a shortbow rogue in Tier 1-2, I got 1 attack each round at advantage with roughly 2 less Dex than most Rogues (because I did not focus on combat). As a result I rarely missed. In Tier 3-4 you miss even less due to bounded accuracy. Now if I was using a bonus action attack that would be more than enough.

[Yakk]

I'd push Extra Attack out from level 5.

See, we want:
(a) Sneak attack to be meaty at level 1-4.
(b) This rogue not to outshine the default rogue at level 5.

Extra Attack is a meaty feature -- [W]+Stat is a lot of damage for a level 5 PC. By adding it at level 5, you have to strip out a lot of meat off the baseline rogue.

But that meat is needed to keep Sneak Attack doing something at level 1-4.

Rogue Variant Features

Extra Attack
At level 11, a Rogue can choose to gain the Extra Attack feature instead of +1d6 sneak attack damage. If they do so, when they take the Attack action on their turn, they can make 2 attacks instead of 1.

Disruptive Strike
At level 11, a Rogue can choose to gain the Disruptive Strike feature instead of +1d6 sneak attack damage. If they do so, after a turn where the Rogue took the attack action, when a creature is hit by an enemy within range of a weapon they are holding, they can expend a reaction to make a weapon attack on the enemy. If the Rogue's attack hits, the creature hit gains a bonus to AC equal to the Rogue's proficiency bonus, which can cause the attack to miss.

Viper Blade
At level 11, a Rogue can choose to gain the Viper Blade feature instead of +1d6 sneak attack damage. If they do so, as an action they can apply venom to a slashing or piercing weapon and make a melee attack with it. If the attack hits, it deals +2d10 poison damage, increasing to +3d10 at level 17. If the attack crits, the creature hit must make a constitution saving throw (DC 8+proficiency+rogue's intelligence modifier) or become poisoned until the end of the Rogue's next turn.

Precision Mastery
At level 11, a Rogue can choose to gain the Precision Mastery feature instead of +1d6 sneak attack damage. If they so do, they can take a Precise Strike action. The Precise Strike action involves making exactly 1 attack that scores a critical hit on a 18-20.

These are all designed to be balanced against Booming Blade (or Greenflame) based Rogues. The balancing was eyeball level, so I'd advise running the numbers before using them. They all require the Attack action, so they don't stack with Greenflame Blade. Booming Blade costs a feat to gain, and you get an additional 1d8 damage at level 11 (and 17) plus splash/secondary damage. By factoring that into the power budget, the gain of a feat and the loss of 1d8+1d6 damage gives these a decent power budget without power creep.

They are also placed at the start of T3, to align with other class power bumps.

Viper Blade is more damage than Greenflame, but is poison damage, one of the most "sorry I'm immune" damage types in the game. The critical hit is a ribbon (with 1 attack/round, even with super advantage it won't go off often).

Disruptive Strike is a strong offence/defence ability. Using it optimally is tactically tricky (optimally, you use it on someone you have advantage on, or failing that is adjacent to one of your allies, and either do it as a melee attack, or a ranged attack while nobody is next to you, or ...) barring feat support (crossbow expert).

Extra Attack is a gimmie.

Precision Strike is designed for rogues who want to crit-fish. It has annoying downsides, like it isn't the attack action, so you cannot two weapon fight with it.

[OldTrees1]

Disruptive Strike
At level 11, a Rogue can choose to gain the Disruptive Strike feature instead of +1d6 sneak attack damage. If they do so, after a turn where the Rogue took the attack action, when a creature is hit by an enemy within range of a weapon they are holding, they can expend a reaction to make a weapon attack on the enemy. If the Rogue's attack hits, the creature hit gains a bonus to AC equal to the Rogue's proficiency bonus, which can cause the attack to miss.

Disruptive Strike is a strong offence/defence ability. Using it optimally is tactically tricky (optimally, you use it on someone you have advantage on, or failing that is adjacent to one of your allies, and either do it as a melee attack, or a ranged attack while nobody is next to you, or ...) barring feat support (crossbow expert).
First, moving it to level 11 makes a lot of sense. But level 11 is also where reliable talent appears. Personally I would be fine with both at that level, but I know I want double the feature density so delaying reliable talent might be wise.

Is this an easy reliable way to get 2 SA a round?



Viper Blade
At level 11, a Rogue can choose to gain the Viper Blade feature instead of +1d6 sneak attack damage. If they do so, as an action they can apply venom to a slashing or piercing weapon and make a melee attack with it. If the attack hits, it deals +2d10 poison damage, increasing to +3d10 at level 17. If the attack crits, the creature hit must make a constitution saving throw (DC 8+proficiency+rogue's intelligence modifier) or become poisoned until the end of the Rogue's next turn.

These are all designed to be balanced against Booming Blade (or Greenflame) based Rogues. The balancing was eyeball level, so I'd advise running the numbers before using them. They all require the Attack action, so they don't stack with Greenflame Blade. Booming Blade costs a feat to gain, and you get an additional 1d8 damage at level 11 (and 17) plus splash/secondary damage. By factoring that into the power budget, the gain of a feat and the loss of 1d8+1d6 damage gives these a decent power budget without power creep.

Viper Blade is more damage than Greenflame, but is poison damage, one of the most "sorry I'm immune" damage types in the game. The critical hit is a ribbon (with 1 attack/round, even with super advantage it won't go off often).
2d10 is similar to 3d6. This definitely shows GFB being the metric instead of the attack action (as you clearly said), but brings that metric into question.

These 2 specific ones feel strong. Maybe too strong, but maybe not. This 4 options seem like a good route to develop.

[Relbin]

Do you have a player who wants to play a rogue? If not, you’re doing a lot of unnecessary work. If so, do they share your desire for extra attack? For many players, mechanics come secondary to story and role play and won’t care about specific mechanics as long as they feel generally on par to the rest of the party. If making a lot of attacks is their primary goal, maybe playing a fighter or ranger is a better option if multiclassing isn’t an option. When you’re making home brew, I’d say the context of your game and making your players happy is more important than mechanics for the most part.

[Nifft]

It's my experience that single-class Rogues play just fine, and the players seemed happy with their characters.

However, note that the two longest-played single-class Rogues were an Arcane Trickster and a Mastermind, which seem to be regarded as better than some of the other options.

[clash]

I think no matter what number you choose, if you go the route of having sneak attack dice scale linearly then the rouge will be too strong at level 5 and then become disappointing later on. What I would suggest is starting with one dice of sneak attack at level 1 then not getting another until after level 5. If you did 6d6 for sneak attack for example you could do 1, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 basically skipping the one increment for extra attack.

[Yakk]

First, moving it to level 11 makes a lot of sense. But level 11 is also where reliable talent appears. Personally I would be fine with both at that level, but I know I want double the feature density so delaying reliable talent might be wise.

Is this an easy reliable way to get 2 SA a round?


2d10 is similar to 3d6. This definitely shows GFB being the metric instead of the attack action (as you clearly said), but brings that metric into question.

These 2 specific ones feel strong. Maybe too strong, but maybe not. This 4 options seem like a good route to develop.

Booming at level 11 is +2d8 damage and +2d8+stat if you force them to move.

Viper is 2d10 damage, but of the most immune damage type in the game; in exchange for 1d6+2d8. But it doesn't cost a feat.

[OldTrees1]

Booming at level 11 is +2d8 damage and +2d8+stat if you force them to move.

Viper is 2d10 damage, but of the most immune damage type in the game; in exchange for 1d6+2d8. But it doesn't cost a feat.

To reiterate:

Yes, that is the math in the Booming Blade case.
2d10 ~= 11
1d6+2d8 ~= 12.5
Then it costs an Arcane Trickster cantrip or a Feat for the 2nd half of the Boom and the different damage type.

But there is a question on whether Booming Blade is part of a balanced Rogue breakfast. (But see the 3rd hand)

On the 3rd hand, the 2d10 is just a number and can be scaled if it is a problem. So these 4 options Yakk designed seem like a good route to go down.

[Yakk]

Disruptive strike, at-will, could be too strong (as it permits off-turn sneak attack easily).

But it by far is my favorite homebrew rogue ability. ;) (Stolen from the 4e ranger)