How would you fix Circle of Dreams?

[werescythe]

So in my efforts to try out a class I hadn't played before, I decided to try out a Lizardfolk Druid. As I looked at classes on my phone, Circle of Dreams stuck out to me and as I read it, I could see it working with the character, the idea being that the druid had a smoke pipe and that she would use that pipe as her druidic focus.

However, as I looked up guides for Circle of Dreams, I realized that not a lot of people like it. Personally I think it gets more flack than it deserves, but I decided that instead of defending this subclass, I would throw the ball into your court.

How would YOU fix Circle of Dreams?

Now here are the rules, you can't change out the abilities. They have to maintain the same theme as the original, so you can't be like "I'd remove Hearth of Moonlight and Shadows." You could however alter the ability to make it better (but hopefully not broken).

Of course this applies to all the abilities (though let's be perfectly honest, the only abilities that people seem to hate for some reason is Hearth of Moonlight and Shadows and Walker in Dreams), feel free to offer your suggestions on how to improve them as you see fit.

The gauntlet has been thrown down. Let's begin.

[Contrast]

How would YOU fix Circle of Dreams?

I think the first question to ask is what exactly you're trying to fix and why.

Personally Circle of Dreams is my favourite druid subclass flavourwise. It isn't top of the heap powerwise but, in my opinion, druid is powerful enough as a class in its own right that regardless of what subclass you choose you're still going to be in a position to contribute well at the table.

So...how would I fix them? I wouldn't.

If you pressured me, I'd probably simplify the 6th level feature so its a little less mechanically janky and give it some sort of Song of Rest style healing bonus. I'd be tempted to add Tree Stride to the 14th level feature.

[werescythe]

Personally Circle of Dreams is my favourite druid subclass flavourwise. It isn't top of the heap powerwise but, in my opinion, druid is powerful enough as a class in its own right that regardless of what subclass you choose you're still going to be in a position to contribute well at the table.

Exactly, I love the flavor of this class and I think it opens up a decent amount of roleplaying potental.

And while I know some people give the 14th level ability guff because of Dream being an aspect of it, I would argue that Dream is actually just as good as Minor Illusion in the right hands.

After all you have the ability to manipulate the dream. Meaning that perhaps you could work it out so you learn some dirty secrets on the dreamer (black mail), found out the archvillain's mysterious plan by convincing him that he has defeated you (despite the fact that it is a dream) so he reveals it you (before you "die"), communicate with distant allies with a bigger message than you could with Seeming.

On top of that you can startle the creature and potentially deprive the villain of the benefits of a long rest (you give them guaranteed disadvantage if you have any of the items mentioned (in the spell description) from the person, which shouldn't be hard to acquire in one of your wild shapes), which over time will give them levels upon levels of exhaustion and could eventually cause them to die outright (6 levels of exhaustion equals death after all).

And you can cast it for FREE! What's so bad about that? Nothing unless the player lacks imagination. :smallamused:


So...how would I fix them? I wouldn't.

I'm glad you think that. :smallsmile:

If I had to alter of them, I would do it this way.

6th level ability: When you use Hearth you also gain the ability to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut inside that 30ft as a 1 or 5 minute ritual.

14 level ability: The player can choose either to use Teleportation Circle normally or the way described (perhaps if you cast it normally it still uses the required spell slot, but you're still doing it without the components and its a spell that druids don't have access to... so... what's wrong with that?).

[Amnestic]

Lets go overboard but not very much.

Make the sphere from 6th level also incorporate the bubbleshield from Leomund's Tiny Hut so not only are you stealthy but also, should anyone spot you somehow, you are also protected for the short rest duration (so cap it at 1 hour).
Add a damage component to the 2nd level effect - heal [friendly target] for xd6 damage and at the same time harm [hostile target] for half that much. Maybe a WIS save to halve it further?
Regain one use of 10th level feature at short rest 1/day and all at long rest.
Add another spell to the 14th level feature - maybe Commune with Nature or Find the Path.

[werescythe]

Lets go overboard but not very much.

Make the sphere from 6th level also incorporate the bubbleshield from Leomund's Tiny Hut so not only are you stealthy but also, should anyone spot you somehow, you are also protected for the short rest duration (so cap it at 1 hour).
Add a damage component to the 2nd level effect - heal [friendly target] for xd6 damage and at the same time harm [hostile target] for half that much. Maybe a WIS save to halve it further?
Regain one use of 10th level feature at short rest 1/day and all at long rest.
Add another spell to the 14th level feature - maybe Commune with Nature or Find the Path.

I don't think it's actually necessary to change Hidden Paths. Hidden Paths is basically Misty Steps (a spell Druids normally don't have access to) except: it can go twice as far (on self), can transport a willing creature for the range of misty step, can be used while Wild Shaped, doesn't use a spell slot or act as a spell (meaning you can cast a spell with your action) and if you have 20 Wisdom you can do this 5 times per long rest, which while that might seem low, considering that you get all your spell slots back on a long rest, it's not much different.

[airless_wing]

As someone who is playing one now, I wouldn’t necessarily change anything.

The theme of the Dreams druid is AMAZING. The names of all the abilities are phenomenal (‘Balm of the Summer Court’ is just A++), and the bonus action healing is incredible. Bonus action teleports and amazing, and the free high level spells reward a good amount of creativity, and are just perfect for a feywild environmental disciple.

I wouldnt mind the lvl 6 feature having a bit more to offer, but it’s a solid, free poor mans Leomunds. Plus, it is active on every rest. If the rest of the party really needs a rest, you can combine it with Pass Without Trace for a +15 to stay hidden, which should set you up in all but the most dangerous settings.

I do miss the Natural Recovery I had on my land druid, but overall, i’m really enjoying the kit of the Dreams Druid.

Plus, and i can’t say this enough, the names of their abilities might be the best of any subclass.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't have a problem with the Dream circle. A lot of people don't realize why it's useful or what it's for.

You see, it's a caster that doesn't need Healing Word. Why is that a big deal? Because when you cast Healing Word, you're limited to casting cantrips that turn, and Druids have some of the worst cantrips but best leveled spells. So now you're not stuck choosing between being a Healer or a Controller, you're always Both.

Additionally, that means not needing to prepare a healing spell, or having to spend spell slots for them. So you effectively gain one additional prepared spell and about 2 level one spell slots per day.

It's very subtle, but the Dream Druid is actually one of the most versatile casting Druids, and I'd put it very nearly on the same level as the Land Druid (although Land gets more spell slots due to its recovery feature). It's still slightly behind Land and Shepherd, but...so is pretty much everything.

[heavyfuel]

There's nothing to be fixed here for two reasons:

1 - Even a Druid with no subclass would still be a really strong class. You could have nothing but your spells and Wild Shape, and you'd still be in the top half of classes;
2 - Circle of Dreams is actually a really good Druid subclass.

Lv 2 ability is just AMAZING in 5e. Since negative HP doesn't exist and there's no risk of dying for fighting at 1 HP beyond level 3, you can just keep healing allies that drop to 0 HP with your bonus action to bring the ally back to the fight at full efficiency, at a very long range, a good number of times per rest.

Lv 6 ability is a lifesaver if your DM has wandering monsters and rolls for random encounters when you rest, although if your DM just lets you rest anywhere any time, then it's indeed kinda useless

Lv 10 ability is Misty Steps on steroids 5/day. Better range, can target allies, no component of any sort means it works as a way to escape bindings, gags, or an area of magical Silence. It even works if you had your druidic focus taken from you. It's incredibly versatile, especially since you can use on others as well. Imagine if you could upcast Misty Step, you'd have increased range with 3rd level slot, be able to target allies with a 4th, and had the removed components at 5th. So that's something that's equivalent of a 5th level spell, 5 times per day.

Lv 14 ability is, well, a bonus 5th level spell. Kinda boring, but still very strong.

If fixing the Circle of Dreams means making it stronger, than there's nothing to be fixed. In fact, I'd probably nerf the 2nd level ability by either reducing the range to Touch or by making it an Action instead.

[werescythe]

I will say, I was both surprised and pleased by the feedback, I received to this thread. I had expected to see a lot of people complaining about this subclass, but instead I found a few people who actually like it. :smallsmile:

[Amechra]

I personally would just toss in a bit of extra oomph into Hearth of Moonlight and Shadow, so that it's still useful for games where DMs don't use wandering monsters or interrupt rests. It'd be kind of boring to just give them something like a Bard's Song of Rest, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

[sambojin]

Almost every druid subclass thread should more-so be "how do I fix Druids?" (so they're not too powerful at Lvls 1-6), rather than "how do I make this subclass better?".

Wildshape is insane. The Druid spell list (and being able to pick any of them up to your preparation limit, of any spell level you could cast, each day) is insane.

Every subclass ability on top of that is great. You might be a tiny bit behind a Wizard power-wise at higher levels, but only a tiny bit, and you didn't have to build for that or get DM handouts for it either. You're just good by default, always.

If people say Moon or Land or Shepherd > Dreams or Stars or Wildfire or Spores, it's more like talking about Wizard specializations. Some are specifically good in some campaigns, or in some parties, or with the requisite player knowledge of a certain character type or class. But the top three are "averagely good" in anyone's hands, while the bottom four are still good, just specifically so. Honestly, the poster-boy-of-power, the Moon is only specifically good until about lvl13 or so, comparatively so. You're selling yourself short after that (note: having a lvl10 "capstone" ability is amazing for most campaigns).

They all have a base level of "a tiny bit worse at high levels than the best class in the game, the Wizard", while subjectively being far better at lvls1-6 than that class anyway (for the problems likely to be encountered on nearly any actual adventure).

[Chaosmancer]

I've been playing a Dream Druid in a play by post game and it is pretty darn good.

Now, I admit, there are a lot of caveats to that statement. I have not gotten a chance to really use the 6th level ability and we are still only level 7. So I haven't seen the other abilities in play yet.

However, the healing from Balm of the Summer court is amazing, and really lets me be the group healer without only relying on spell slots. And for those times the DM throws massive demons at us? I combines with Healing Spirit to keep the party fighting on.


Now, all that said, I do think the 6th level ability needs a small buff. Hiding is fine, but we don't really use wandering monsters so it is kind of a dead ability. I am thinking making it a multiple choice ability on top of the hiding.

When you complete a short or long rest within this zone, you may choose to do one of the following
- Remove a level of exhaustion
- Roll a d8+ the druid's wisdom mod, gain that many temp hp.

[sambojin]

Meh. At lvl6 you can wildshape into a wolf spider and be ultra-stealthed with decent perception. Or ultra-stealth any ritual caster's/MI Bat familiar (with super blindsight perception) for long rests. Yes, they can spend their time casting it, if it's an important rest. Or wildshape into a giant bat for your own super perception/stealth for 4hrs at lvl8 for long or short rests (you're about to get the wildshape charge back anyway).

I'd honestly rather see them coming, than Leomund's "set up an ambush immediately for the PCs that overuse this" Hut.

Fair enough on the exhaustion mechanic though. There's so few ways of removing exhaustion levels in 5e, its sad.


(it's also pretty funny when the use of a short rest resource can give about a flat +10-12 to a skill roll by lvl6, in a stat-capped system, only being spoken of as "decent" in druid terms)

[Nagog]

I too really love the flavor of the subclass, but find it to be lacking somewhat in practice. To be perfectly honest, I have beef with the Druid class as a whole (specifically the metal thing and the lackluster power scaling of Wild Shape), but considering these don't come into play for the subclass, I feel I can be unbiased on my judgement.

Firstly, I feel the subclass lacks interesting features due to it's heavy focus on short and long rests abilities. While flavorful and potentially fun, it pretty much comes down to once a day you can do a mildly interesting thing. To that end, instead of Hearth of Moonlight and Shadow, I'd fit something else there and give Circle of Dreams a short Circle Spells list, including Sleep, Calm Emotions or Darkness, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Hallucinatory Terrain, and Dream. All thematic and useful spells, but not enough to step on the toes of Circle of the Land.

Considering that this adjustment means they get Sleep and Balm at the same time, and the spell list is a gift that keeps on giving, the other abilities need not be as powerful as other subclasses. At 6th level I'd give them the ability to cast Lesser Restoration without a spell slot during a short rest on a number of creatures equal to their Wisdom modifier, usable once per long rest. It's powerful-ish, in the sense it can come in clutch in some otherwise life-threatening scenarios, but outside of those scenarios it likely won't see much use.

Hidden Paths is a pretty good ability, I'd keep it.

Walker in Dreams is back to the "Once a day, mildly interesting thing happens" spot we've been pulling away from. I'd keep the name, but perhaps change it to being able to cast Commune without a slot on every Long Rest. By 14th level, you've got 7th level spells, meaning one 5th level spell a day (And one powerful 2nd-level spell burst with the new Hearth) isn't amazing, but still thematic and interesting.

[Nagog]

Almost every druid subclass thread should more-so be "how do I fix Druids?" (so they're not too powerful at Lvls 1-6), rather than "how do I make this subclass better?".

Wildshape is insane. The Druid spell list (and being able to pick any of them up to your preparation limit, of any spell level you could cast, each day) is insane.


How is Wild Shape insane? Granted at levels 1-6 it doesn't have a direct comparison, but even so the heavy restriction on forms you have access to both in CR and the Beast type is straight up bad.
The Spell List has a few great spells, but so dang many of them take your concentration to the point that when I played a Druid, I only really used one or two spells per combat. The Warlock was straight up casting more leveled spells than I was per combat some days.



Every subclass ability on top of that is great. You might be a tiny bit behind a Wizard power-wise at higher levels, but only a tiny bit, and you didn't have to build for that or get DM handouts for it either. You're just good by default, always.

If people say Moon or Land or Shepherd > Dreams or Stars or Wildfire or Spores, it's more like talking about Wizard specializations. Some are specifically good in some campaigns, or in some parties, or with the requisite player knowledge of a certain character type or class. But the top three are "averagely good" in anyone's hands, while the bottom four are still good, just specifically so. Honestly, the poster-boy-of-power, the Moon is only specifically good until about lvl13 or so, comparatively so. You're selling yourself short after that (note: having a lvl10 "capstone" ability is amazing for most campaigns).



Tiny bit behind the Wizard? How? Are you taking into account Concentration with your spellcasting, the Beast restriction to Wild Shape, the fact that your main class feature was outclassed at level 8 by literally anyone else with Polymorph?

I'd say of all the subclasses, Stars is the most well-rounded and useful. Shepherd is pretty good if you're DM doesnt mind you running half of the rounds of combat, but I tend to shy away from that because as a DM and player alongside such a Druid, I would hate that.
Moon Druids are, imo, the worst of all of them. Literally the entire focus of the subclass is to bring a really bottom of the barrel class ability up to mediocre power levels.



They all have a base level of "a tiny bit worse at high levels than the best class in the game, the Wizard", while subjectively being far better at lvls1-6 than that class anyway (for the problems likely to be encountered on nearly any actual adventure).

How? I understand that in levels 1-6 Wild Shape has no direct competition, but even going Moon Druid you get to CR 2, maximum. Meanwhile your Wizard has summoned 2 CR 1 demons, or Fey/Shadow/Undead spirit that can do all of that for him while he's also casting Fireball. Wizard is top class at any level, Druids are pretty much always lagging behind.

[sambojin]

How far are all the other classes lagging behind in terms of versatility and power? Compared to a druid?

Not in DPR, just versatility and power?
And, yes. I'm taking concentration into account.

So, like I said. Just a tiny bit behind the most powerful class. The Wizard.
(you *can* have summoned daemons, if that spell exists and you chose it/your DM "gifted" you a scroll. Druids have 1-2 CR1-2 beasts by default, PHB only, at lvl5-6. They do restrain-on-hit or flying mounts. And a lot of other things besides. And that works with any party (without being labelled as a demonic scumbag). Totally AL compatible, so you can choose broken stuff from another book).

(plus, you're actually good in combat at lvl2-4 with a druid. And you really don't seem to know how much mechanical BS druids can pull off. It's a high knowledge class, same as wizards, but the DM just gives you stuff in different ways)

Note: will agree with Stars Druids being awesome. They are. Kind of on the off-chance that I retrigger a Wizard supremacist for lols.

[Nagog]

How far are all the other classes lagging behind in terms of versatility and power? Compared to a druid?

Not in DPR, just versatility and power?

So, like I said. Just a tiny bit behind the most powerful class. The Wizard.

(plus, you're actually good in combat at lvl2-4 with a druid. And you really don't seem to know how much mechanical BS druids can pull off. It's a high knowledge class, same as wizards, but the DM just gives you stuff in different ways)

Bards are by far the most versatile, and with a half-thought through build, can be quite powerful as well.
Artificers are extremely versatile by design.
Rogues are both powerful and versatile in skills and sneak attack, despite being completely martial.
Clerics also have the benefit of Prepped Spells, with a much broader spell list to boot and a full class worth of features,
Wizards have spellbooks and the largest and most expansive spell list in the game
Warlocks are extremely versatile with both class abilities and invocations
Paladins are top tier almost all around, only really falling behind in access to full caster slot progression
Then Druids because:
A) Their spell list is extremely flavor enforced. If it doesn't have nature ingrained into the way it works, it probably isn't available to Druids.
B) They have next to no class features.
Lastly (of the full casters) is the Sorcerer, who only falls behind the Druid because they lack any form of spell versatility.

I assume you mean "High Knowledge Class" because you know beast forms and the druid spell list. Beast Forms is heavily limited to what you've seen or what the DM throws at the party. Past early tier 1, most encounters include beasts as an afterthought to give the Druid something to celebrate, and most Beasts don't have the kinds of abilities other creature types do. A spellbook off an enemy spellcaster with 2 spells in it is going to be more of a boon than a whole combat encounter focused on giving the Druid one or two more forms.
As for the "BS druids can pull off", pulling BS is far from a class-specific ability. My friends could easily call "Pulling BS" as my go-to playstyle. If your DM allowed you to pull BS more than anybody else, make no mistake it wasn't class features, it was pity from your DM that your class has so little going for it.

[sambojin]

Lol. You are funny.

(I will give you that Bards are right up there at Druid tier, a squeak behind Wizards, in power and versatility, in most campaigns. Not all-the-way-to lvl20 campaigns. Just the standard lvl1+-lvl15'ish (mostly lvl1'ish to 13'ish) campaigns, on roleplay opportunities, skills and versatility (and thus, power))

(if you haven't had a hard time with a Wizard at early levels, it's because your DM "gifted you". Never had enemies running on by the melee'rs, or never using enemies that are good against shooters/ are good shooters, or never had a condition inducing spell that hits a bad save, or only had small groups of enemies (1-4, strangely enough where druids also excel on lock-down and control abilities) each encounter? Yep, they were nice to the squishy one, that just shuts down small problems, or blows up big ones. Druid's wildshape does cover a lot of "oh sh*t!" moments, that a wizard would have to use a spell slot on. A Bard would just de/inspire the really problematic circumstances for themselves if needed. There's only so many Shield spells, yet tonnes of short rest resources.... Being "gifted" and "whinging for freebies" isn't required with tier-1 classes. Tier-0 however... If you started at lvl5, "pick what you want, everything", yeah, you'd feel better as a wizard in a campaign/ adventure. If you started at lvl1, you'd have so many more good moments as a bard or druid by lvl5, it would be incomparable. You did so much stuff, when it really counted, that everything after was just a cherry on top)
-------

(Fun Fact: you finding a spell book or scroll is simply a cash-sink the DM gave you as a wizard. It's not your spell book. You still have to pay and use 50gp+2hrs per spell level for it, to put it into "your" one. Think of it as "study time". Or half that, if it's in your school speciality. Times two if you want a backup book. It ain't free.
Druids? The three biggest expenses they have are a magic shield, a set of magic studded leather armour, and the cost of Awaken spells (1000gp a time for an extra talking NPC in the party per day). You might not even do that last one.
They can splash cash everywhere, because it ain't nothing to them. The first two are adventure gifts in 5e anyway, and resize beautifully in this edition, even for wildshape.

Yes, a Moon Druid with +1 studded leather and a +1 non-metal shield gets 21AC by default as an Air Elemental at lvl10. Can't be made to stop flying easily, has hands, can talk (in Auran). Easy "capstone" at lvl10. 90HP, non-magic b/p/s resistance. For 5 hrs, each short rest, with other options as well. Weak-as, huh? Lol.

Dreams still gets 3-5 bonus action 60' teleports per day at 10th. Or can wander by a squishy in combat, bonus action teleport them out, then cast a spell, or wildshape into a +HP form and take the hits themselves. As their lvl10 crappy capstone. And they have ultimately free bonus action healing within 120' as well. Even when in wildshape, flying forms or not. Yep, pretty weak class this one, nowhere near wizard BS....
Just being able to bonus 120' heal someone, turn into a warhorse at lvl4 as an action, then move 60' wherever and do whatever assuming the ambulatory uses their action to ride away the hero of the battle (you, the horse), makes it good)

[Tanarii]

Almost every druid subclass thread should more-so be "how do I fix Druids?" (so they're not too powerful at Lvls 1-6), rather than "how do I make this subclass better?".

Wildshape is insane. The Druid spell list (and being able to pick any of them up to your preparation limit, of any spell level you could cast, each day) is insane.

Every subclass ability on top of that is great. You might be a tiny bit behind a Wizard power-wise at higher levels, but only a tiny bit, and you didn't have to build for that or get DM handouts for it either. You're just good by default, always.

That's a pretty good summary of Druids. Very powerful in the right hands, still good in moderate hands, The one downside is they are very complicated for new players, they can be bumble along in brand new hands just because they overwhelm the player.

[AdAstra]

That's a pretty good summary of Druids. Very powerful in the right hands, still good in moderate hands, The one downside is they are very complicated for new players, they can be bumble along in brand new hands just because they overwhelm the player.

The only flaw (aside from the complexity you mentioned) that Druids have is a heavy reliance on Concentration spells in combat, especially before tier 3 or so. Their best stuff is almost all concentration-based, and what isn't is pretty lackluster in comparison. But Druids have enough tools to mitigate this, and just enough useful non-concentration spells, that it's hard to call it an outright weakness.

While the higher-level stuff that Dreams offers is hit-or-miss, bonus action healing that doesn't interfere with spellcasting is always going to have a place. The teleports are also pretty excellent, given that they also don't interfere with spellcasting and Druids don't normally get Misty Step.

[heavyfuel]

How is Wild Shape insane? Granted at levels 1-6 it doesn't have a direct comparison, but even so the heavy restriction on forms you have access to both in CR and the Beast type is straight up bad.


Better stealth than a Rogue with Expertise because you can hide in plain sight. Better athletics than a Rogue with Expertise because you can choose a creature with a climb speed. Excelent infiltration capabilities by picking a creature with a burrow speed.

It also helps you have the absolute best Perception in the game. Proficiency + High wis + creature with Keen Senses.

Wild Shape sucks in combat (unless you're a Moon Druid), but the utility is definitely insane.

[MrStabby]

How would I "fix" circle of dreams?

Well it wouldn't be power - as some people have noted the circle is powerful enough already.

What I would fix is that it doesnt seem to capture dreams or the fey side of nature that I would have hoped for.

It has healing - not quite sure what the connection is between dreaming and healing, so I would cut that out.

Hearth of Moonlight and shadow feels a lot more Fey, it is also about resting... where at least someone might dream.

Hidden paths and walker in dreams is about teleportation - not quite so instinctively what I would have thought as central to being Fey, but close enough and in D&D there is a tight relationship so this gets a pass.



And what it is missing...

Well dream for a start. And possibly sleep... what kind of caster themed around dreams doesn't get these?

I would add to that that to me a Fey theme should encompas illusions and enchantments.


So my fix would be for Balm of The summer Court:

At 2nd level your ties to the dreamlike land of the fey provides you with the ability to draw on enchantment and illusion magic. As a bonus action you may draw upon this power to know any enchantment or illusion spell from any class until the end of your turn. The spell must be of a level equal to or less than half your druid level rounded up. This spell counts as a druid spell for you. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier and regain all uses after a long rest.

[heavyfuel]

So my fix would be for Balm of The summer Court:

At 2nd level your ties to the dreamlike land of the fey provides you with the ability to draw on enchantment and illusion magic. As a bonus action you may draw upon this power to know any enchantment or illusion spell from any class until the end of your turn. The spell must be of a level equalt to or less than half your wizard level rounded up. This spell counts as a druid spell for you. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier and regain all uses after a long rest.

Kinda niche to have your 2nd level ability work exclusively with Wizard/Druid multiclass :smalltongue:

Jokes aside, you somehow took an incredibly strong feature and changed it to make it even stronger. A floating spell from any class is always strong, and the schools you restricted it to aren't exactly bad schools (especially Illusion)

[MrStabby]

Kinda niche to have your 2nd level ability work exclusively with Wizard/Druid multiclass :smalltongue:

Jokes aside, you somehow took an incredibly strong feature and changed it to make it even stronger. A floating spell from any class is always strong, and the schools you restricted it to aren't exactly bad schools (especially Illusion)

Heh heh! Good point, will edit!


As to the class power - I dunno how strong it is. I mean, they are good schools, no doubt but the druid gets a lot of good spells so the opportunity cost of using a slot on one of these is pretty high. I would aslo say that these schools are generally on the control effect side and are often concentration so there is a lot more overlap than there would be with giving druids access to something like fireball.

I agree that the current balm of the summer court is increadibly strong though; I do think that both are strong. Maybe tone it down to once per short rest - enough to add a bundle of flavour and utility without dominating the druid side?

[Chaosmancer]

(it's also pretty funny when the use of a short rest resource can give about a flat +10-12 to a skill roll by lvl6, in a stat-capped system, only being spoken of as "decent" in druid terms)

I think it has less to do with druids and more to do with how people handle rests. A +5 to stealth is amazing, but most people don't roll stealth checks when dealing with wandering monsters. The monsters just stumble onto the party.

And the no seeing firelight is great, until you remember that a lot of parties dig fire pits and bank the fires when they are sleeping, to reduce the firelight seen anyways.

So it does a lot of good things, but they are things that don't come up or that parties already solved.



How is Wild Shape insane? Granted at levels 1-6 it doesn't have a direct comparison, but even so the heavy restriction on forms you have access to both in CR and the Beast type is straight up bad.

Moon Druids are, imo, the worst of all of them. Literally the entire focus of the subclass is to bring a really bottom of the barrel class ability up to mediocre power levels.

So, this is slightly off topic, but a fair point.

Wildshape is weak in terms of a combat ability for most druids. However, in terms of an utility ability it is kind of bonkers. Things my Dream Druid has done (with no flight or swim speed)

- Became a Panther to track down a missing girl by scent
- Became a snake to find allies dragged down into muddy water (blindsight) and help them escape (lots of biting)
- Use same snake form to sneak around swamp/dungeon and scout an enemy position
- Became a spider to infiltrate an enemy shop and observe everything for 8 hours undetected
- Became a bloodhound to track a lost ally by scent
- Became a ferret to steal an invitation to a party (target doesn't know it was not some random animal, plus the warlock turned me invisible)
- Turned into a horse for a solo session where I was traveling what was supposed to be a few day journey, in hours.


Really, in terms of stealth, mobility and tracking, there are few better choices.

Now, Moon Druid turns it into a combat ability. And this is tricky and depends on a lot of factors. But, even a decent creature like a Dire Wolf has some okay damage. The big kicker is that after you kill the wolf? The Druid is there at full hp to keep fighting, making them last a really long time in combat. Which, since they are also a healer class, can mean you end up saving the party's bacon.

The real power though of the Moon Druid kicks in at level 10. Turning into an Elemental is huge, hundreds of hp, possible resistance or immunity and big damage. Had a druid once who preferred Fire Elemental. They dish out so much damage by hitting, hurting you at the end of their turn, and hurting you again when you attack them.


Finally, to tie this back into Dream Druid's a fun little trick with Balm of the Summer Court? Much like the action to activate Call Lightning, it isn't a spell and has no components, so you can heal while in animal form. A mid-level Dream Druid could cast Call Lightning, turn into an owl, and fly around the battlefield healing and blasting with lightning the entire combat.



The Spell List has a few great spells, but so dang many of them take your concentration to the point that when I played a Druid, I only really used one or two spells per combat. The Warlock was straight up casting more leveled spells than I was per combat some days.

I fully agree with this though. I've played and seen a lot of druids, and concentration hits them hard. Almost every spell worth casting takes concentration.

I've ended most adventures as a Druid still having the majority of my slots, because I can't cast enough spells. Also, things like Call Lightning and Moonbeam (which are both excellent) take your action as well, so casting them very much locks you into a strategy until you either drop concentration or decide to ignore your spell in favor of some other idea.


I assume you mean "High Knowledge Class" because you know beast forms and the druid spell list. Beast Forms is heavily limited to what you've seen or what the DM throws at the party. Past early tier 1, most encounters include beasts as an afterthought to give the Druid something to celebrate, and most Beasts don't have the kinds of abilities other creature types do. A spellbook off an enemy spellcaster with 2 spells in it is going to be more of a boon than a whole combat encounter focused on giving the Druid one or two more forms.

Ah, we don't use that variant rule. It literally only exists to prevent Druids from wildshaping into Dinosaurs (or I suppose from shifting into animals that don't exist in your world anymore)

I would say if you do use that variant rule, apply it equally to Polymorph and True Polymorph. Sorry, can't turn anyone into a Beholder mister wizard, you've never seen a Beholder.

[Chaosmancer]

It has healing - not quite sure what the connection is between dreaming and healing, so I would cut that out.

Sleep is one of the most powerful healing actions IRL that your body can do. Also, I always picture the scene where the wounded warrior stumbles, falls and passes out, only for a "strange individual" to find them and nurse them back to health.

The image of a knight laying on the lap of an elven maiden as she magically tends his wounds also comes to mind. Sleep/dream/fey/healing has a thematic connection.


I also tend to play my Balm as fragments of dream/memory that heal you. So, four our Swashbuckler rogue I once told him that the magic brought to mind a Lady's smile at his cunning wit, or for the Barbarian, the smell of summer grass from their homeland. Things that comfort, soothe, and relax them.

[MrStabby]

Sleep is one of the most powerful healing actions IRL that your body can do. Also, I always picture the scene where the wounded warrior stumbles, falls and passes out, only for a "strange individual" to find them and nurse them back to health.

The image of a knight laying on the lap of an elven maiden as she magically tends his wounds also comes to mind. Sleep/dream/fey/healing has a thematic connection.


I also tend to play my Balm as fragments of dream/memory that heal you. So, four our Swashbuckler rogue I once told him that the magic brought to mind a Lady's smile at his cunning wit, or for the Barbarian, the smell of summer grass from their homeland. Things that comfort, soothe, and relax them.

OK, I get this. I get that it is possible to make a link... but it kind of seems tenuous. Out of every magic effect in the game healing is the one associated with dreaming? A mental state supporting an effect associated with evocation in this edition?

It kind of feels like the circle was designed by looking in some kind of leftover bin of proposed class features... having a rumage round till something of the right level was found then doing a post hoc justification for why it was a dreamy feature.

[AdAstra]

OK, I get this. I get that it is possible to make a link... but it kind of seems tenuous. Out of every magic effect in the game healing is the one associated with dreaming? A mental state supporting an effect associated with evocation in this edition?

It kind of feels like the circle was designed by looking in some kind of leftover bin of proposed class features... having a rumage round till something of the right level was found then doing a post hoc justification for why it was a dreamy feature.

I mean, in this edition Long and Short rests are directly associated with healing and restoration, and the former explicitly involves sleep for most characters so I’d hardly call it post-hoc.

[MrStabby]

I mean, in this edition Long and Short rests are directly associated with healing and restoration, and the former explicitly involves sleep for most characters so I’d hardly call it post-hoc.

Thats a reasonable point - I mean its sleep not dreams, but it is at least a lot nearer than I gave it credit for.

[rustythorn]

How would YOU fix Circle of Dreams?



the only fix would be to make it LESS broken, hearth of moonlight and shadow gives you Total cover and +5 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) and Wisdom (Perception), whenever you want it. even traveling [at half speed]

there is no clear definition what constitutes "start of a rest". you can start, stop and start again a rest instantaneously. i can say 'i start a rest', then move 15' then stop resting, then start another rest, etc... so you can continuously remake the sphere around you then move 15'

heck you could see a foe 20'+ away, shot it, then say "i start a rest", now you have total cover

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: how do you fix Thread Necromancy?