Would a ki-caster have potential?

[Millstone85]

Suppose there was a new class, with a focus on casting spells of levels 0 to 9, that was presented as relying not on arcane or divine magic but on the same "magic of ki" that monks use.

Instead of manipulating the Weave or conjuring some other external force, a character would develop the magic found within their own body (and mind, as per the monk's Tongue of the Sun and Moon). They would not necessarily have martial training, but their somatic components would have a more gymnastic flair, and they might be especially good at melee spell attacks, or something like that.

As many of you can tell, this thread is inspired by all the times I or someone else suggested connecting the mystic to the monk, which was met with firm opposition from other forum members. Common arguments against the idea included:

There is no clear precedent for the connection, other than 4th edition which did everything weird.
Ki can involve body-mind harmony, but psionics is strictly the power of the mind.
A psionic class should use sci-fi themes, not pseudo-oriental ones.

Feel free to further weight on the debate. However, what I really want to ask here is your opinion on the concept of a ki-caster, taken on its own. Does it sound interesting? Would it have a place in 5e?

[JNAProductions]

I mean... If you're proposing "Full-caster with Ki themes" then that's fine, pending an actual class. It could be a refluffed Sorcerer or Bard or whatever, or its own homebrew class.

If you're proposing "Full-caster that's technically not magic, so it's unaffected by Dispel Magic and the like" then you are, like the person I've seen propose something like this before, completely overpowering whatever you make.

I feel like you're more saying the first, which is... Yeah, totally fine.

[JellyPooga]

The theme has merit, but like JNA says, I'd build it as a Wizard, Sorcerer or Bard. Storm Sorcerer could work well, if you wanted to veer toward a monk-ish feel of mobilty, etc. If you want a mystic, wu jen or similar feel, then I'd go with Wizard using an "odd" spellbook (tattoos, runes, divination sticks, etc.).

[MrStabby]

Well I would prefer Ki than Sci-fi in my fantasy setting so prefer this to psionic fluff.

Anyway, I think thematically - yes, no problem. Practically its going to be tough.

So imagine you have a Ki based caster class. How much Ki does it get per level? If it is more than the monk, then it probably becomes a go-to multiclass for monk just for extra resources. Or you don't use Ki... in which case it isn't a Ki caster.

Then there is balance. OK, lets take the heroic leap and assume casters are balanced... roughly. They have some great spells and some less good spells. At any given spell level the value of a spell slot it largely determined by the most powerful spell of that level the caster has access to. If you release an overpowered level 4 spell for a class then you overpower all level 4 spell slots. If a more fluid Ki based system is used where one resource is used for all levels of spell then if you overpower one spell then you overpower all uses of Ki; there is less of a limit.

You see this already with monks. The ability that gets used the most is the most powerful for the Ki cost, and it gets used when it becomes available to the detriment of other abilities. OK, it isn't a totally hard rule but its fair to say that for most monks they use most of their Ki on a very narrow subset of abilities.

This hypothetical class would also be somewhat frustrating to play. This kind of resource management is very powerful - how restricted would the spell list need to be to ensure no spell was too far ahead of the curve as the balance is now so sensitive to a single spell? Now resource flow is more efficient - no thinking "well I want to hold back a spell slot of level X for eventuality Y up ahead where I will cast spell Z. Cast what you like as you can convert Ki to a spell of any level. To keep it balanced you are faced with the same problem a sorcerer has: it is only balanced with a relatively narrow spell selection and a tight control over spells known... and everyone knows how much whinging there is about the sorcerer spells known.


On the other hand... you could say to screw the 0 to 9 level spellcasting and do something like 1 to 7. You sacrifice some top level power for the improved veratility of Ki casting. Your spell options are just a bit more like each other (no piling in all your casting to top level spell slots, overshadowing everyone else then demanding to rest - Ok still an issue but a bit less of one). A lower level cap makes the theme stronger as there is a richer set of options at the lower levels; you want to build a coherent character you can but if you were to need more higher level spell options you would have to go off-brand.

[Zevox]

As long as you don't try to call it Psionics, sounds fine by me. Hell, might be a better way to do a Bender-style character - give them some unique cantrips that let them always have that Bender flair in combat even when out of resources and they'd very quickly be a better representation of it than the Four Elements Monk is.

[Duff]

snip
If you're proposing "Full-caster that's technically not magic, so it's unaffected by Dispel Magic and the like" then you are, like the person I've seen propose something like this before, completely overpowering whatever you make.

Even this doesn't have to be an issue, as long as they also can't detect/read/dispel etc magic and there's the right balance of need for those abilities and monsters with "Dispel Ki", "Anti Ki Field" spells etc.
Playing a gimped sorcerer (really limited spell list) might solve your balance issues.

GM would need to work at finding the balance. Wouldn't work in a group where balance is a high priority

[Arkhios]

First of all, you have to realize what Ki actually means, before you start painting vivid pictures of a monastic type character throwing fireballs here and there (NOTE: I'm not saying you are doing that). I'm personally opposed to that kind of magic through Ki, because it doesn't make sense. Ki isn't just some irrelevant name for a point pool resource to be spent for whatever.

Ki, Qi, or Chi is essentially a life energy that flows through every living thing (more or less). It's not produced by each individual's mental strength; it's an energy that's always present, much like the Weave. But the control over Ki depends partly on your mental discipline. That's where I see lies the fundamental difference between Ki and Psionics. Psionics are powers that your sheer will produce. Ki is energy that surrounds and permeates everything, that you can only tap into and make subtle changes to its flow.

Controlling Ki is to control life energy. But I wouldn't extend its reach beyond yourself. I would restrict Ki spells to those that affect only you, or at the most, have a range of touch. EDIT: Actually, having access to aura spells or effects isn't a bad idea, to be honest.

Honestly, I could see Mystic as a Wisdom based Monk Subclass with a "1/3"-spellcasting (even though, if you look closely enough, Four Elements is scaled towards 1/2-spellcasting), drawing spells from fairly limited list and only from certain schools of magic (such as maybe Abjuration and Transmutation)

With that said, now that I think about it, purely hypothetically, a "full caster" with Ki pool could be similar to monk in that they gain a pool of ki just like monk, but also traditional spell slots. They might be able to enhance their spells with Ki, but not cast their spells with Ki by default. This wouldn't be much unlike Sorcerer and Sorcery Points, as was suggested upthread. In fact, you could even use Sorcerer as the chassis for such a class, but for example changing Charisma to Wisdom. Spell list could be similar to that of the Druids and Bards, with some changes.


P.S. I've personally never been opposed to the idea that Monks and Mystics would fall into same category: Monastic type characters. I am opposed to the idea that Mystic has to be somehow related to psionics. I actually find it kind of amusing that people make the comparison always with the idea that Mystic must be a psionic class, and as such, can't be like a Monk. Why is it so difficult to separate their minds from the UA premise of Mystics and re-arrange the concepts the other way around (that is, instead of trying to shoehorn and justify Monk's Ki as if it was Psionics, why not take a few steps further and make Mystics more like Monks, and have them use Ki as a primary or secondary resource like the monks, all without implying Ki was related to Psionics)? :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Some wizards (those in Forgotten Realms) manipulate the Weave, some don't (those in any other setting). Some clerics call on the power of gods, some settings don't have gods, but clerics still work the same way, and so on. Where your power comes from is a trait of the setting, not really of the class. If you want a world where spellcasters use their own internal power instead of external, then just say so, and it is so. You don't need a new class for it; it can be any or all of the existing classes.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Wild and crazy idea for the class chassis, please bear with me and critique gently.

It would obviously need a curated spell list. I liked the above mention of self & touch spells, maybe with subclass added spells like Artificer, Cleric, & Warlock.

Unsure if it would be Wis or Int based, but I like the class symmetry of a second Int full caster (Wis Cleric/Druid, Cha Bard/Sorc/Warlock*)

I think it would regain Ki on a short rest like a Monk or Warlock Spell-slots.

Copy over the Ki=Slot pricing, which I think follows Sorcery-points/Spell-points costing.

Cap them at 5th level like the Sorcerer/Warlock (Font of Magic/Pact Magic)

Give them 1/day 6-9 like Mystic Arcanum of the Warlock

And let them prepare/meditate for Spells like a Cleric praying/Wizard studying Spellbook once a day.

—Clerics are Level+Wis+Domain, Wizards are Level+Int, Bards know 22 at Level 20, Sorcerers & Warlocks know 15 at level 20.

So I think Level plus Subclass Domain might be about right, oh and of course in the meditation, still only 1 each of spells level 6-9. Unless at 17/18/19/20 (or at capstone) we let them prepare a second 6/7/8/9 for the day, but still only cast one of them each spell level per long rest.

Thoughts?

[Vogie]

That'd be my thought - make it essentially a revised spell point warlock, base wisdom (or Intelligence) instead of Charisma. Meditating over a short rest to receive their ki points back, as normal,

They gain the appropriate number of ki points per level, but are capped at a number of things you can do per short rest. At 11, you start gaining more actions per rest. That's also when you get your 1/day superpowers

As for the flavor, your options are wide open. You could have AtLA style Benders, Lightbringer style Drafters, Mutants, Psionics, Occultists, you name it.

It could be cool.

Imma gonna work on it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Flavor wise, zero issues. I mean... here was my introduction for the Psychic Warrior:

One who turns the mind’s potential to the warrior’s art is known as a psychic warrior. Where psions devote themselves wholly to the development of mind-engendered abilities, psychic warriors give emphasis to the development of the body. With mental and physical energy working in union, the psychic warrior strives toward martial perfection.
There's no meaningful difference between "ki" and "psi." Both are wellsprings of internal power, derived from meditation and self-perfection.

Balance wise... any point-based caster is going to be more sensitive to short adventuring days than a slot-based one, but using a short rest recharge nullifies that, and you just wind up with a more flexible Warlock. Other than that, you don't really have problems. The rules for point-based casting are right there in the DMG. As long as you don't bypass parts of them (as the Mystic did, with its invisible casting and lack of the "only one leveled spell per turn" limit), you're fine.

I can tell you all this because I've done it (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7), if you want to check out how I addressed potential issues.

[Arkhios]

I can tell you all this because I've done it. (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7)

I don't mean to disrespect you, but be careful with self-inflating the balloon, or it might pop due too much pressure!

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't mean to disrespect you, but be careful with self-inflating the balloon, or it might pop due too much pressure!
Silence, mortal! I am the lord your Grod, thou shall not have strange Grods before me! :smalltongue:

[JackOfAllBuilds]

That'd be my thought - make it essentially a revised spell point warlock, base wisdom (or Intelligence) instead of Charisma. Meditating over a short rest to receive their ki points back, as normal,

They gain the appropriate number of ki points per level, but are capped at a number of things you can do per short rest. At 11, you start gaining more actions per rest. That's also when you get your 1/day superpowers

As for the flavor, your options are wide open. You could have AtLA style Benders, Lightbringer style Drafters, Mutants, Psionics, Occultists, you name it.

It could be cool.

Imma gonna work on it.

I’m really glad you liked my train of thought. It’s basically what I thought the Mystic should have been, and using Ki instead of Psi. I originally said the Mystic should have been Ki (and that the Sorcerer should use spell points not slots)

[Tvtyrant]

Depends on if the mechanics were distinct enough to be interesting. I have fluffed 4E as Ki based previously, where at-wills used the circulating ki in the body, short rest/encounter powers would unbalance the lesser chakras and daily's would unbalance the larger chakras (require a long time to rebalance.)

[Angelalex242]

So, this is a monk of the 4 elements. Already done, don't need another one. Might as well improve on the monk if you want to do it better.

[JNAProductions]

So, this is a monk of the 4 elements. Already done, don't need another one. Might as well improve on the monk if you want to do it better.

No, it's a caster. As-in, full caster, with 9th level spells.

[Talionis]

I do think you would be on the correct track mimicking Warlock. That being said I think high level Warlocks have issues as full casters with both less spells known and less high level slots.

The other issue which has been touched on is how does it multi class with Monk? My guess is it is supposed to multi class with Monk well because they share the same resource of Ki. Just like Paladin and Warlock oddly pair well. Balancing that multi class would seem imperative that dips from either are good but not overpowering.