OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, Redcloak got reasonable much more quickly than I expected. I suppose Durkon hit him with some sense, though.

Even though he never struck a blow.

[Quebbster]

Nice to see the situation didn't go south immediately. It's very clear that option is still open though.

[deworde]

Feels like a Cleric of Thor expecting never to have to wipe goblin spit out of his beard was an ambitious expectation.

Really odd but nice to see Durkon taking the initiative, rather than just doing what Roy tells him or waiting to see what turns up.

[littlebum2002]

Well there goes all the theories that said Redcloak wouldn't be willing to negotiate. After all, what's the point of holding people hostage if you won't listen to anyone who might be willing to give you your demands?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, Redcloak got reasonable much more quickly than I expected.

Every cleric is probably used to occasionally having to obey an order of their god that feels downright suicidal. RC definitely does.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

You know, in hindsight of course Redcloak would have expected the gods to send someone.

Feels like a Cleric of Thor expecting never to have to wipe goblin spit out of his beard was an ambitious expectation.
Well, there's not that many goblins where the dwarves live.


Really odd but nice to see Durkon taking the initiative, rather than just doing what Roy tells him or waiting to see what turns up.
Yeah, it's almost like we had an entire book about that. :smalltongue:

Well there goes all the theories that said Redcloak wouldn't be willing to negotiate. After all, what's the point of holding people hostage if you won't listen to anyone who might be willing to give you your demands?
Hey now, he isn't willing to negotiate with. Besides he's under the impression that this is in reaction to his action (thus giving him some much needed craved validation. I expect him to change his tunes once Durkon explains himself.

[Lord Torath]

Goblin spittle... Poor Durkon. At least things are moving toward less violence for the time being.

Thanks, Rich!

[Jay R]

Redcloak isn't the real threat; Xykon is.

Is Redcloak going to be working with the Order (or with Durkon?) behind Xykon's back for most of this book?

Frankly, my guess is that Durkon makes the offer, Redcloak rejects it, and comes back to Durkon a few hundred pages later.

[ref]

OK, Durkon. Instinctive Onslaught prevented. Now let's see how the negotiation goes. :)

[Coyote0715]

Redcloak seems willing to talk, for the moment. Maybe no so much after hearing what he has to say...

[SlashDash]

Why wouldn't Redcloak be reasonable?
He has a high wisdom score and we know he is a VERY long term strategist. He has been out this whole plan for quite a while.



I'm actually surprised I didn't notice Redcloak not holding a weapon. That's a rather bold choice.
Though a great character style to show how much he counts on the spells from his god.

[Lord Torath]

I'm actually surprised I didn't notice Redcloak not holding a weapon. That's a rather bold choice.
Though a great character style to show how much he counts on the spells from his god.I don't think Redcloak's ever held a physical weapon, in comic. I don't think we've even ever seen him hold a fork. Hence his assertion that not holding a weapon doesn't mean one is helpless/harmless.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm actually surprised I didn't notice Redcloak not holding a weapon. That's a rather bold choice.

RC has never used a weapon. He might have very poor strength, so it wouldn't be of much help - he is a pure caster. In some ways, a contrast to Durkon, who seems to prefer to hit things with his hammer.

Grey Wolf

[FlawedParadigm]

Why wouldn't Redcloak be reasonable?
He has a high wisdom score and we know he is a VERY long term strategist. He has been out this whole plan for quite a while.



I'm actually surprised I didn't notice Redcloak not holding a weapon. That's a rather bold choice.
Though a great character style to show how much he counts on the spells from his god.

Well, there is the "I hate all humans" thing, and - while I admit I am speculating here - it may well extend to humanoid non-humans too, although I am not certain that Redcloak has ever specifically drawn that line (just the one between whether he was a racist or speciest.)

[137beth]

Oh, sweet, this conversation is going to last several strips:smallsmile:

[Griffincat]

But where is our bugbear friend going while the clerics conclave?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But where is our bugbear friend going while the clerics conclave?

Outside of lethal blast radius for clerical 9th level spells.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

Congrats to him for getting to Cliffport so fast.

[hamishspence]

Nice to see how quickly Redcloak becomes reasonable.

[Jay R]

But where is our bugbear friend going while the clerics conclave?

To tell Xykon that a negotiator is here. This is early in the book. Complications are expected.

[deltamire]

Good move on Durkon's part to skip directly to appealing to the religious aspect of Redcloak's plan/motives: Redcloak isn't going to listen to a moral or ethical standpoint on the issue, because of his sunk cost fallacy and general distrust of what he sees as 'the good fight'. A chance for him to tip the scales for his god through divine channels, though? Now we're cooking with gas!

Also, shout-out to the Bugbear some on the forum are assuming is the Shaman in the first panel. They seem pretty chill about this whole situation. We've also got another couple of shots of Redcloak with that scroll and stowing it on his person, so it must be going to come up in some fashion later on.

[SpectralTime]

Poor Durkon. The problem with being reasonable is always going to be when others choose to be unreasonable.

At least he managed to get a word in edgewise, no pun intended.

[137beth]

Well, there is the "I hate all humans" thing, and - while I admit I am speculating here - it may well extend to humanoid non-humans too, although I am not certain that Redcloak has ever specifically drawn that line (just the one between whether he was a racist or speciest.)

In SoD, when the possibility of using Xykon for The Plan is first suggested
Redcloak says he wanted to use a goblin. When Right-Eye points out that goblins don't make good arcane casters, Redcloak says

Fine, I
admit that maybe
our people aren't exactly
genetically predisposed
to be masters of
arcane magic—
—but then let's
find a kobold half-
dragon or an ogre mage
or a...a...an awakened
chipmunk! Anything
but a human!

So I get the impression he dislikes all "PC races," or at least thinks they are worse than "monster races," but that he particularly views humans as the worst.

[Reboot]

So, Redcloak regards that as his "name" by now, eh?

[thorr-kan]

That last panel is actually pretty funny.

[dancrilis]

RC has never used a weapon.

To memory neither has Xykon or the Monster in the Darkness - so in a sense the OOTS are an armed gang seeking to met out vigilante justice against a group of unarmed people.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Bit surprised Redcloak didn’t hit him at least once. :smallconfused: Someone out of spells for the day?

[Kashem]

So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?

Great lead in Giant, Looking forward to whether or not Redcloak actually allows negotiation.
Also, LOL @ "Redcloak" and "You know my name?"

No, it just seems like goblin clerics are only referred to by the color of their cloaks, with the sole exception of Jirix.

[Ghosty]

But where is our bugbear friend going while the clerics conclave?

Off to do whatever? It may be that Monster Hollow gets very few or no visitors, in which case the taciturn bugbear might be running off to sound the alarm.

OTOH, if this really is a dungeon filled with the toughest monsters around, might word of such a place have leaked out to all sorts of suicidal adventurers to come and ply their trade? So that the bugbear settlement might be used to serving as a standard inn/healer/shops that we all know and love? Durkon would just be another dwarven adventurer then.

You'd think the Mechane's crew would have heard of the settlement though, as villages like that get a lot of money circulating through them.

[Nomen]

Well there goes all the theories that said Redcloak wouldn't be willing to negotiate. After all, what's the point of holding people hostage if you won't listen to anyone who might be willing to give you your demands?

Yea but the question is will he continue to listen once Durken explains that the current plan is an inconvenience for the gods in power and Thor's mostly bothering to negotiate because this plan will kill the Dark One and Thor sort of needs the Dark One.
I think the RedCloak will dismiss Durkens claims initially but will most likely think/pray about it.

[Psyren]

Crap, it's actually working. My Vegas odds that Roy/the Order mess things up trying to "save" Durkon are now increasing :smalltongue:

[TwistedSultan]

I dig the "you'll see this in a different light" reference to the Quiddity.. I assume.

I'm glad to see Redcloak stopping to talk though, with him stowing the scroll i'm imagining the conversation is going to take place in a different location to avoid eavesdropping. hopefully not with the rest of the Order.

[Quebbster]

So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?

Lots of people already made that guess. It wouldn't really make much sense to have the gate unprotected like that though.

[Fyraltari]

So, Redcloak regards that as his "name" by now, eh?
Has done so for a while, unfortunately.

So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?
You're the ten thousandth to do at least. Haley already explained why that's unlikely (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) and it's really a terrible idea to hide something in the most visible spot of the place. That's literally where everybody would look first as is evident by th enumber of people proposing that.



Also, LOL @ "Redcloak" and "You know my name?"

No, it just seems like goblin clerics are only referred to by the color of their cloaks, with the sole exception of Jirix.

You should read Star of Darkness, the prequel book featuring Xykon's and Redcloak's backstories. It's great.

[Segev]

Is Redcloak unusually tall for a goblin, or are dwarves much smaller than in most D&D settings here? Goblins are Small sized, typically, after all, and dwarves Medium. Yet Redcloak towers over Durkon almost as much as Roy does.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?

Plenty. Haley disagrees (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html), though.


Is Redcloak unusually tall for a goblin, or are dwarves much smaller than in most D&D settings here? Goblins are Small sized, typically, after all, and dwarves Medium. Yet Redcloak towers over Durkon almost as much as Roy does.

Rich decided to have goblins be human-sized (Medium) so that it would not look like the order where beating up green children (Haley's headbutt of a horny teenaged goblin notwithstanding).

Grey Wolf

[Windscion]

I do enjoy Durkon's snark.
Also, looks like the statue is about one-and-a-half times life size.

[Fyraltari]

Is Redcloak unusually tall for a goblin, or are dwarves much smaller than in most D&D settings here? Goblins are Small sized, typically, after all, and dwarves Medium. Yet Redcloak towers over Durkon almost as much as Roy does.

Goblins have been human-sized since book One since The Giant didn't feel they'd be threaening otherwise.
I do admit to finding it weird to see a goblin diss a dwarf's height too.

[Peelee]

To tell Xykon that a negotiator is here. This is early in the book. Complications are expected.
Why would the bugbears care about Xykon knowing?

Bit surprised Redcloak didn’t hit him at least once. :smallconfused: Someone out of spells for the day?
Not a chance, IMO. He's most likely freshly prepped.

So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?.
Yes, that is a popular theory. One that a great deal of people, myself included, don't buy. Way too many risks that make it a poor choice.

Crap, it's actually working. My Vegas odds that Roy/the Order mess things up trying to "save" Durkon are now increasing :smalltongue:
Eh, Vegas odds are weird. IIRC the Red Sox had remarkably small Vegas odds (something akin to 3:1 at one point, IIRC) on them winning the World Series in the 90s and early aughts.

[Crœsos]

Willingness to negotiate, or at least talk, is probably helped by the fact that both parties are Lawful.

[Peelee]

Goblins have been human-sized since book One since The Giant didn't feel they'd be threaening otherwise.
I do admit to finding it weird to see a goblin diss a dwarf's height too.

I don't think he's mocking Durkon's height so much as expecting a much larger angelic being, like the Planetar that Mig-Jun summoned to quash the hobgoblin village.

Also, I like how Redcloak would be perfectly civil to a random dwarf who happened to be around.

[Rockphed]

Yes, that is a popular theory. One that a great deal of people, myself included, don't buy. Way too many risks that make it a poor choice.

My theory is that the gate is hidden somewhere else entirely. Quite possibly behind another dungeon full of monsters. In fact, I suspect that the hollow is refilled when the other dungeon starts overflowing (because monsters have life cycles).

[Fyraltari]

I don't think he's mocking Durkon's height so much as expecting a much larger angelic being, like the Planetar that Mig-Jun summoned to quash the hobgoblin village.

Also, I like how Redcloak would be perfectly civil to a random dwarf who happened to be around.

I interpreted the dwarf's depth comment as a dig but maybe it wasn't intended as such.

Redcloak is always civil (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil). He doesn't trade insults with dead men (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), after all.

[CriticalFailure]

Well so far it has gone better than expected.

[Peelee]

I interpreted the dwarf's depth comment as a dig but maybe it wasn't intended as such.

Redcloak is always civil (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil). He doesn't trade insults with dead men (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), after all.

Imean, he did just by saying that.:smallwink:

[Lheticus]

Has Redcloak ever...LOOMED over someone like that before? It actually looked pretty cool.

[Fyraltari]

Imean, he did just by saying that.:smallwink:

He's trying!

[deltamire]

To memory neither has Xykon or the Monster in the Darkness - so in a sense the OOTS are an armed gang seeking to met out vigilante justice against a group of unarmed people.
From what we've seen of prisons with their magic dampening cells, this universe probably doesn't exacly count having magic that can turn people into a facsimile of a Pollock painting with a couple of fingersnaps as unarmed.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, all things considered the “goblin spit” route was one of the better ways things could have gone. It’ll be interesting to see how this develops.

[Lheticus]

Redcloak isn't the real threat; Xykon is.

Is Redcloak going to be working with the Order (or with Durkon?) behind Xykon's back for most of this book?

Frankly, my guess is that Durkon makes the offer, Redcloak rejects it, and comes back to Durkon a few hundred pages later.

The coming back might happen more quickly than that. This is the last book--I doubt we HAVE more than a few hundred pages left in the whole thing. I'd more put my quatloos on a few dozen than hundred. At this stage of the game, Things are Happening, this negotiation is just the start. It's gonna be frenetic (and I can't wait!)

[xroads]

After playing D&D for years, having a goblin be tall enough to stand over a dwarf just strikes me as so odd. :smallconfused:

[understatement]

I (won't be) the first to admit that Redcloak is among my favorite characters, but Durkon (who is also among my favorites) dissing him is so damn satisfying.

So many things I love about the strip, mainly:

*Redcloak was going to let Durkon walk away. 'Nice' of him, I guess.
*Cool dweomer effects!
*He actually RECOGNIZED him from two years ago? When I read that line I thought Durkon was a goner for sure.
*Durkon yelling back made me smile so hard.

I'm also silently begging for Durkon to lower his voice. Can't wait to see what the two are going to say, and how the Order (or Xykon) interferes.

[Elves]

Feels unrealistic that the back and forth goes on so long. Could just go:

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

Feels unrealistic that the back and forth goes on so long. Could just go

Have you not noticed that this comic is a tiny teensy bit wordy at times?

[NobleCuriosity]

I wonder if Redcloak’s comment about expecting an angel will inspire Durkon to bring up the information about the outsiders getting their memory wiped every time the world resets. I don’t think it would help any with Redcloak, but it might be an interesting thing for the three fiends to overhear.

[Elkins]

"The Kind That Makes Friends Easily With Clerics of Evil Gods" may be a strangely specific wheelhouse, but...

Fun to see Redcloak give such good loom.

[Angelalex242]

Hmmm. I guess Durkon rolled pretty well on that Diplomacy check.

Then again, Redcloak as a cleric should have a fantastic sense motive, so there's that too.

[deltamire]

Fun to see Redcloak give such good loom.
We've already had an aside just over ten pages ago (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html) regarding the way that height affects shorter races' experience with the world - d'you think that Durkon straight up isn't as affected by the loom (he mostly just looks peeved at not being able to speak, and then angry) because any time someone taller than him speaks to him, it's always just like that? Like, it's got to be less effective if someone trying to intimidate you is roughly the same body movement as your good but incredibly tall friend Roy Greenhilt leaning over and asking if you want help reaching the top shelf.

[Fyraltari]

"The Kind That Makes Friends Easily With Clerics of Evil Gods" may be a strangely specific wheelhouse, but...

With Evil Clerics. We don't know that Nergal is an evil god.

EDIT:

We've already had an aside just over ten pages ago (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html) regarding the way that height affects shorter races' experience with the world - d'you think that Durkon straight up isn't as affected by the loom (he mostly just looks peeved at not being able to speak, and then angry) because any time someone taller than him speaks to him, it's always just like that? Like, it's got to be less effective if someone trying to intimidate you is roughly the same body movement as your good but incredibly tall friend Roy Greenhilt leaning over and asking if you want help reaching the top shelf.

Roy never leans over like that, though. This is a deliberate invasion of personal space. Look at the way Durkon recoils.

[Peelee]

With Evil Clerics. We don't know that Nergal is an evil god.

True. That being said, Malack never said Nergal wasn't, and certainly equivocated on his own evilness as well, so I just assume Malack was consistent and equivocated on Nergal as well.

[drazen]

I interpreted the dwarf's depth comment as a dig but maybe it wasn't intended as such.

There would be substantial digging involved in dwarven tunnels. I suspect those are what Redcloak was alluding to (how deep do they go?), just some wordplay with no insult intended.

[Fyraltari]

True. That being said, Malack never said Nergal wasn't, and certainly equivocated on his own evilness as well, so I just assume Malack was consistent and equivocated on Nergal as well.
While the first part is true, and the rest is certainly probable Malack's reasonning is sound so I won't take your conclusion as established fact.

[Kurald Galain]

So, Redcloak regards that as his "name" by now, eh?
Yeah, it's almost like we had an entire book about that, too :smallamused:

When did the Order learn that name, anyway? After their first encounter it was "some goblin with a red cloak, I didn't get his name".


To memory neither has Xykon or the Monster in the Darkness - so in a sense the OOTS are an armed gang seeking to met out vigilante justice against a group of unarmed people.
Xykon has hit people with his hands and with huge rocks, at least. MitD hasn't to my knowledge attacked anyone, ever.


Has Redcloak ever...LOOMED over someone like that before?
Kind of? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

[deltamire]

Roy never leans over like that, though. This is a deliberate invasion of personal space. Look at the way Durkon recoils.
I was mostly goofin'. I just used Roy as an example, though the logic came from my own experience - it's hard to intimidate me by making yourself look big when you're short like I am in a friend group of bloody giants, so Durkon's relative inaction moving away from it was very relatable.

(Although the recoil part might just have been the goblin spit aspect. Urg.)

[Lemarc]

Crap, it's actually working. My Vegas odds that Roy/the Order mess things up trying to "save" Durkon are now increasing :smalltongue:

It's such a classic set-up that the only reason I'm not sure it'll happen is that it's so predictable. Durkon really should have dismissed the Wind Walk on the others and told them "I'm leaving, don't try to come after me" rather than giving them the Irish Goodbye.

[Fyraltari]

When did the Order learn that name, anyway? After their first encounter it was "some goblin with a red cloak, I didn't get his name".

Haley and Belkar learned it when they lived in occupied Azure City.

[Aquillion]

Well there goes all the theories that said Redcloak wouldn't be willing to negotiate. After all, what's the point of holding people hostage if you won't listen to anyone who might be willing to give you your demands?The immediately obvious problem is that Durkon isn't actually empowered to make any concessions (which seems like an oversight on Thor's part; given the importance of this, it'd be totally worth making a few concessions for Goblins and the Dark One.) It seems like negotiations are likely to fall apart once Redcloak realizes this.

[Ghosty]

Has Redcloak ever...LOOMED over someone like that before? It actually looked pretty cool.

Reminded me of how Tsukiko's last strips were drawn. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

EDIT: Aquillion's point is an excellent one. It is incredibly frustrating trying to negotiate with an agent that can't make any meaningful concessions on behalf of their principal.

[Peelee]

The immediately obvious problem is that Durkon isn't actually empowered to make any concessions (which seems like an oversight on Thor's part; given the importance of this, it'd be totally worth making a few concessions for Goblins and the Dark One.) It seems like negotiations are likely to fall apart once Redcloak realizes this.

Doubtful; both are agents of their gods, and neither can make decisions on this big a scale on their god's behalf. Both will almost certainly know this already. Thor could always try the Summon Proxy route, though I don't think we'll see that.

[Fyraltari]

I was mostly goofin'. I just used Roy as an example, though the logic came from my own experience - it's hard to intimidate me by making yourself look big when you're short like I am in a friend group of bloody giants, so Durkon's relative inaction moving away from it was very relatable.

(Although the recoil part might just have been the goblin spit aspect. Urg.)

Well that makes sense. Though the fact that Redcloak is a murderer in service to an evil god and a maniacal lich, and was channelling dark magics probably helped his case too.

EDIT:
Doubtful; both are agents of their gods, and neither can make decisions on this big a scale on their god's behalf. Both will almost certainly know this already. Thor could always try the Summon Proxy route, though I don't think we'll see that.

You know what, I'd like to see that a lot. That'd be a way to bring TDO into the action. He might even forget that Redclaok can hear him speak this way and let slip some things he'd rather his high priest not know.

[Peelee]

You know what, I'd like to see that a lot. That'd be a way to bring TDO into the action. He might even forget that Redclaok can hear him speak this way and let slip some things he'd rather his high priest not know.

Oh, I certainly would, but it takes away agency on both Reddy's and Durkon's behalf, so I'm uncertain we'll see it.

[Lheticus]

Also, how has no one yet called attention to how hilarious it is for Durkon to be using the phrase "slow your roll"? Or well, "yer" roll in his case, obviously.

[understatement]

I think it's mildly crazy that Durkon and Redcloak are (around) the same ages. One will definitely outlive the other, though. :smalleek:

Man, Redcloak does give a good loom. But if anyone can make him change his mind not to destroy the multiverse, it'd be Durkon.

I am on the boat that the Order will show up to "rescue" Durkon at the most inopportune time possible. And if Xykon comes out the hut at the same time, well...great! Book ends, people.

[happycrow]

It's so nice to see two characters negotiating with their wisdom stats.

[Angelalex242]

TDO and Thor almost certainly need to send proxies in some way...otherwise, how is Durkon to collect the Purple Quiddity he needs to save the world?

[Fyraltari]

Oh, I certainly would, but it takes away agency on both Reddy's and Durkon's behalf, so I'm uncertain we'll see it.

Not anymore than the Moot took away from Durkon*'s agency as a villain. I'm not expecting TDO and Thor to solve anything is the clencher there.

EDIT:
TDO and Thor almost certainly need to send proxies in some way...otherwise, how is Durkon to collect the Purple Quiddity he needs to save the world?

Thor needs to give Redcloak instructions on how to perform a specific ritual that will burn one 9th-spell slot and give Thor access to that energy. Durkon needn't do a thing once Team Violet is on-board.

[rasborry]

Love it. I can't wait to see all the chips laid down!

[Shale]

The immediately obvious problem is that Durkon isn't actually empowered to make any concessions (which seems like an oversight on Thor's part; given the importance of this, it'd be totally worth making a few concessions for Goblins and the Dark One.) It seems like negotiations are likely to fall apart once Redcloak realizes this.

Even Thor likely isn't empowered to make concessions on the scale Redcloak wants. The best Durkon will be able to do is take an offer back to the pantheon, which they would then put to a Godsmoot.

[dancrilis]

For those praising Redcloak's loom - he has seen a few (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) in his time, he was bound to pick up something.

[Quebbster]

Roy never leans over like that, though. This is a deliberate invasion of personal space. Look at the way Durkon recoils.

Good thing he didn't bring a wrench, otherwise the negotiations might have taken an unexpected turn.

[RMS Oceanic]

Oh dear, the talk actually getting to this point means it's a good chance someone will blunder in to wreck it, and it's a good chance of being the Order. :smallfrown:

[Peelee]

Everybody's talking about Redcloak's loom, but what use is that unless Xykon has a spinning wheel?

[Shale]

Everybody's talking about Redcloak's loom, but what use is that unless Xykon has a spinning wheel?

Are you saying we should ask you about loom(s)?

[dancrilis]

Oh dear, the talk actually getting to this point means it's a good chance someone will blunder in to wreck it, and it's a good chance of being the Order. :smallfrown:

The Order is not prepared to fight Xykon (and Redcloak, MITD and a Bugbear Tribe) in a 'meet in the street no planning' fight where their cleric is focused on other matters - Roy I suspect knows this.

If he blunders into this discussion and it goes badly for him then he deserves everything he gets.

[Fyraltari]

Even Thor likely isn't empowered to make concessions on the scale Redcloak wants. The best Durkon will be able to do is take an offer back to the pantheon, which they would then put to a Godsmoot.

Redcloak doesn't want concessions, he wants the gods to grovel at his master's feet thanks to his efforts.

[Shale]

His exact words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) are that he (well, TDO) wants the gods to agree to "a series of concessions that will improve the lives of the goblin race."

[Fyraltari]

His exact words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) are that he (well, TDO) wants the gods to agree to "a series of concessions that will improve the lives of the goblin race."

Yes. Hoever you'll notice that the plan just so happens to give the Dark One the power of life and death over all of the gods. Only a fool would trust anyone who come up with that plan to have reasonable goals. Also Redloak is a known speciest. Also alsowhat rEdclaoks wants and what he tells himself are two very different things; in the same scene he says he controls Xykon.

[Yirggzmb]

Everybody's talking about Redcloak's loom, but what use is that unless Xykon has a spinning wheel?

I mean, I'm sure there's someone on staff or in the bugbear village who knows how to use a spindle at any rate.

[Jasdoif]

Doubtful; both are agents of their gods, and neither can make decisions on this big a scale on their god's behalf. Both will almost certainly know this already. Thor could always try the Summon Proxy route, though I don't think we'll see that.You know what, I'd like to see that a lot. That'd be a way to bring TDO into the action. He might even forget that Redclaok can hear him speak this way and let slip some things he'd rather his high priest not know.Oh, I certainly would, but it takes away agency on both Reddy's and Durkon's behalf, so I'm uncertain we'll see it.Getting the Dark One to agree is kind of the crux of the whole thing, so if it happens I'm quite confident we will see it.

More significantly, that would actually be the first time we've seen the Dark One directly in a character role (the absence of which so far is kind of suspicious)...meaning that in addition to general establishing of personality/etc., this would be our first opportunity to see exactly how much his goals align with Redcloak's. And, unless the Dark One has another level 17+ cleric somewhere, Redcloak has the drastic option of refusing to cooperate unless Thor's proposal meets with his approval as well. (I suppose Durkon could also refuse to do his part in setting up the ritual, but that looks ridiculously speculative at this point in time)


Everybody's talking about Redcloak's loom, but what use is that unless Xykon has a spinning wheel?That's pretty warped, even for you.

[Squire Doodad]

"The Goblin of your Loooooooom"!

[FlawedParadigm]

I think it's mildly crazy that Durkon and Redcloak are (around) the same ages. One will definitely outlive the other, though. :smalleek:

Teeeeeeechnically one has already outlived the other.

[Peelee]

Getting the Dark One to agree is kind of the crux of the whole thing, so if it happens I'm quite confident we will see it.

I think that it was quite deliberate that Redcloak mentioned the only feedback he gets from his god is that he gets to keep casting spells, and I think that will be the most direct intervention we'll see from TDO.

Also I didn't get the "warped" pun, so you win this one pretty quickly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Anyone else willing to bet that this is just the first step in negotiations? Durkon lays a few things out and then backs off so Redcloak has time to think it over?

[LadyEowyn]

Finally finally finally!!!

I’ve been excited about this plot direction ever since we got the backstory-comics with Thor in the last book. SO glad to see it paying off!

[Squire Doodad]

Anyone else willing to bet that this is just the first step in negotiations? Durkon lays a few things out and then backs off so Redcloak has time to think it over?

"If you betray your master in the next 200 comics, we'll give you a 10% rebate!"

[Ginasius]

I don't think Redcloak's ever held a physical weapon, in comic. I don't think we've even ever seen him hold a fork. Hence his assertion that not holding a weapon doesn't mean one is helpless/harmless.

Redcloack wields a battleaxe in a scene of "The Start of Darkness". So TSOD is a prequel that tells the origins of the Evil Team is useful to indicate that he does this when he is already the High Priest of the Dark One and a powerful cleric.

When Xykon has been recently "liched" and learns for the first time that he won't be able to taste coffee anymore he kills the waitress at the diner where they used to go and is about to kill Right Eye. Then Redcloack threatens to shatter the phylactery and when he does that, he wields a battleaxe.

[Fyraltari]

I think that it was quite deliberate that Redcloak mentioned the only feedback he gets from his god is that he gets to keep casting spells, and I think that will be the most direct intervention we'll see from TDO.

My money is on "The Giant is saving him for a big dramatic reveal".


I was so excited about this update I made a tumblr post (https://warrioreowynofrohan.tumblr.com/post/621642240811581440/taking-a-break-from-the-silmarillion-for-a-minute)!
Truly the most desperate of actions.


Taking a break from The Silmarillion
How dare!

[understatement]

Anyone else willing to bet that this is just the first step in negotiations? Durkon lays a few things out and then backs off so Redcloak has time to think it over?

Considering they still have to find the paladins, maybe Serini, definitely the IFCC and mystery of the riftworld...yeah, Durkon's just laying the dominoes here.

Dammit Durkon, I believe in you! You've been pretty compadre with two Evil clerics so far; you can mildly convince this last one.


Redcloack wields a battleaxe in a scene of "The Start of Darkness". So TSOD is a prequel that tells the origins of the Evil Team is useful to indicate that he does this when he is already the High Priest of the Dark One and a powerful cleric.



That was Right-Eye's battleaxe.

Redcloak does seem to have enough STR to kinda-lift the MITD onto the cart during the circus scene, and he does have the Smite attack as a melee option.

[Squire Doodad]

Considering they still have to find the paladins, maybe Serini, definitely the IFCC and mystery of the riftworld...yeah, Durkon's just laying the dominoes here.

Dammit Durkon, I believe in you! You've been pretty compadre with two Evil clerics so far; you can mildly convince this last one.

Who was the second? Or are you counting Greg?

[understatement]

Who was the second? Or are you counting Greg?

Hilgya and Malack. Not that either ended well...

Greg is somewhat different, being a version of him and all.

[Waraila]

Yes. Hoever you'll notice that the plan just so happens to give the Dark One the power of life and death over all of the gods. Only a fool would trust anyone who come up with that plan to have reasonable goals. Also Redloak is a known speciest. Also alsowhat rEdclaoks wants and what he tells himself are two very different things; in the same scene he says he controls Xykon.

Thing is, as much as Redcloak is a speciest, he does want what is best for the goblin races... and if the world is destroyed, either through the Snarl, or the gods destroying the world... then all that progress he has made for his people will be wiped out... with the added risk that TDO will not survive in the period between the current world and the next.

I would think both Redcloak and TDO would be a little more open to finding out more about the risks at that point, and possibly ask for more reasonable demands to co-operate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hilgya and Malack.

[dancrilis]

Yes. Hoever you'll notice that the plan just so happens to give the Dark One the power of life and death over all of the gods.

Well it gives him a one off ability to kill ~1 (maybe more if they are in close proximity, maybe less if they aren't were he expects them to be) of them and likely ruin the day of many more - but using such a weapon is normally a bad idea rather then merely threatening to use it.

I think The Giant has also made that point somewhere.

[Squire Doodad]

Hilgya and Malack. Not that either ended well...

Greg is somewhat different, being a version of him and all.

Right, Hilgya counts as well.

[Fyraltari]

Thing is, as much as Redcloak is a speciest, he does want what is best for the goblin races... and if the world is destroyed, either through the Snarl, or the gods destroying the world... then all that progress he has made for his people will be wiped out... with the added risk that TDO will not survive in the period between the current world and the next.
When "getting all currently alive goblin blown up by the gods" is one likely outcome of your actions followed closely by "getting all currently alive goblins devourde by a soul-munching abomination" and you yourself have sent loads of goblins to an early grave, you do not get to claim to be acting in the goblins' interest. Redcloak is not a reformist he is a living weapon wielded by a power(hungry god wracked by guilt and ready to go to absurd leanght not to have to face the reality of what he's become. He had a name, but now he's only Recloak.

Well it gives him a one off ability to kill ~1 (maybe more if they are in close proximity, maybe less if they aren't were he expects them to be) of them and likely ruin the day of many more - but using such a weapon is normally a bad idea rather then merely threatening to use it.

I think The Giant has also made that point somewhere.
So what? The point of having the Plan is to have the gods too terrified to disobey him, it doesn't matter that he can only using once (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_Cat).

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I really love this comic. People have been speculating left and right about how Durkon would carefully bring up Thor's idea, but I wouldn't in a million years have considered that Redcloak might have been expecting it.

[Jasdoif]

I think that it was quite deliberate that Redcloak mentioned the only feedback he gets from his god is that he gets to keep casting spells, and I think that will be the most direct intervention we'll see from TDO.Fair, but I also think it was quite deliberate that Thor mentioned a specific way Durkon could contact him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html), and that we had multiple comics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) with (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html) proxy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)-conversing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html).

So while I think it could certainly go either way, there's a lot more value to be had in hearing from the Dark One directly.


Thing is, as much as Redcloak is a speciest, he does want what is best for the goblin races... and if the world is destroyed, either through the Snarl, or the gods destroying the world... then all that progress he has made for his people will be wiped out... with the added risk that TDO will not survive in the period between the current world and the next.Redcloak already said he's okay with destroying the world, because the Dark One will be able to help the next world's goblins; and that was while he was markedly invested in what was good for the goblin people who are not him.


Well it gives him a one off ability to kill ~1 (maybe more if they are in close proximity, maybe less if they aren't were he expects them to be) of them and likely ruin the day of many more - but using such a weapon is normally a bad idea rather then merely threatening to use it.

I think The Giant has also made that point somewhere.

Probably thinking of this:

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

[Psyren]

When did the Order learn that name, anyway? After their first encounter it was "some goblin with a red cloak, I didn't get his name".

I dunno about the whole Order, but Durkon at least was told by Thor "you know him as Redcloak." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

EDIT: Digging backwards a bit, Belkar knew his name as early as Greysky city. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) Perhaps they learned it during Haley and Belkar's time in the resistance?

[Psychronia]

Considering it's Redcloak, and all the other circumstances...

That was a pretty clean start. Well done, Durkon.

[understatement]

When "getting all currently alive goblin blown up by the gods" is one likely outcome of your actions followed closely by "getting all currently alive goblins devourde by a soul-munching abomination" and you yourself have sent loads of goblins to an early grave, you do not get to claim to be acting in the goblins' interest. Redcloak is not a reformist he is a living weapon wielded by a power(hungry god wracked by guilt and ready to go to absurd leanght not to have to face the reality of what he's become. He had a name, but now he's only Recloak.


I've always thought that Redcloak viewed the whole thing as 70-30; the Plan would most likely succeed, enough that the risk (destroying the planet) is gamble-able. (Bettable? Dunno the word).

However, as Roy tells us here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html), a Good person knows that they don't inherently hold jurisdiction over someone else's life. I do believe that Redcloak is sincere about the goblins' plight, but him being Evil stems from the fact that he doesn't have the right to decide for others (in terms of mortality), and neither does his God.

Which makes me wonder: in


Why is the Dark One so set on this Plan? The hobgoblin cleric (later Supreme Leader II) doesn't even know about the Crimson Mantle, and Redcloak's previous Master was literally chilling in a goblin village for probably a couple of decades. Heck, Redcloak gets to keep his spells even after he decides to settle down in Right-Eye's village (not that the peace lasted long). So what's the deal here?

[Peelee]

Fair, but I also think it was quite deliberate that Thor mentioned a specific way Durkon could contact him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html), and that we had multiple comics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) with (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html) proxy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)-conversing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html).

So while I think it could certainly go either way, there's a lot more value to be had in hearing from the Dark One directly.

Commune isn't Summon Proxy, though; I have no doubt we'll hear from Thor again, and we'll probably hear from TDO. I'd even bet on it. But I'm not completely certain.

[dancrilis]

Probably thinking of this:


Thanks that was it.



So what? The point of having the Plan is to have the gods too terrified to disobey him, it doesn't matter that he can only using once (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_Cat).
I will defer to The Giant on this.


Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

As such the 'grovel at his master's feet' plan is likely not on the cards - depending on what you meant by that, if you meant a simple apology in written form that might be doable, if you meant he would be top god forever and all others would be his minions begging off his wrath then Redcloak is likely out of luck if he expects that.

[Fyraltari]

I dunno about the whole Order, but Durkon at least was told by Thor "you know him as Redcloak." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

EDIT: Digging backwards a bit, Belkar knew his name as early as Greysky city. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) Perhaps they learned it during Haley and Belkar's time in the resistance?

No, that line by Thor means that Durkon already used that name.

They probably learned it when going through his stuff. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html)

[Peelee]

No, that line by Thor means that Durkon already used that name.

They probably learned it when going through his stuff. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html)

That's a good point; Haley was in a resistance movement for quite some time, in a city where Redcloak was a prominent figure.

[Windscion]

...

Which makes me wonder: in


Why is the Dark One so set on this Plan? The hobgoblin cleric (later Supreme Leader II) doesn't even know about the Crimson Mantle, and Redcloak's previous Master was literally chilling in a goblin village for probably a couple of decades. Heck, Redcloak gets to keep his spells even after he decides to settle down in Right-Eye's village (not that the peace lasted long). So what's the deal here?


Honestly, I assumed they didn't have proper intel on the locations of the gates, plus there was the whole 'epic (near-epic?) arcane caster' problem. Plus, RC might have lost his casting abilities had he stayed.

[understatement]

Honestly, I assumed they didn't have proper intel on the locations of the gates, plus there was the whole 'epic (near-epic?) arcane caster' problem. Plus, RC might have lost his casting abilities had he stayed.

Why not just tell them, or make another red-cloak?

My pet theory: the TDO is full of bull. If he really wanted to give goblins a fair chance, he should have just told Redcloak to a) level up and b) conquer a city (a fairly Evil thing, but reasonable within mortal limits and it doesn't risk the entire multiverse). If he was any decent god, he should've told Redcloak that allying with Xykon is a terrible idea. (Can gods see the future?)

[Fyraltari]

I've always thought that Redcloak viewed the whole thing as 70-30; the Plan would most likely succeed, enough that the risk (destroying the planet) is gamble-able. (Bettable? Dunno the word).
First: betting the survivla of the entire world even at 0.001 odd is terrible.
Second: That was four gates ago, things have changed.


However, as Roy tells us here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html), a Good person knows that they don't inherently hold jurisdiction over someone else's life. I do believe that Redcloak is sincere about the goblins' plight, but him being Evil stems from the fact that he doesn't have the right to decide for others (in terms of mortality), and neither does his God.
Oh he's cares about goblin well-being, that's for sure. It's a distant third behind "revenge" as #2 and sunk-cost fallacy at #1.



Which makes me wonder: in


Why is the Dark One so set on this Plan? The hobgoblin cleric (later Supreme Leader II) doesn't even know about the Crimson Mantle, and Redcloak's previous Master was literally chilling in a goblin village for probably a couple of decades. Heck, Redcloak gets to keep his spells even after he decides to settle down in Right-Eye's village (not that the peace lasted long). So what's the deal here?

Well we don't know what Redclaok's master's plans for the future were. Also TDO has very lttle control over his high priest. The only way he has to communicarte his displeasure is to strip them of their powers definitively which would bring him back to square one.

Thanks that was it.


I will defer to The Giant on this.


As such the 'grovel at his master's feet' plan is likely not on the cards - depending on what you meant by that, if you meant a simple apology in written form that might be doable, if you meant he would be top god forever and all others would be his minions begging of his wrath then Redcloak is likely out of luck if he expects that.
Oh there was hyperbole of course. But I say that the Plan's intended result is more than giving TDO a seat at the metaphorical table. It's to give him the fancy armchair at the high end and have the others call him "sir". Sure you can only push people so far until they are willing to fight to the death to overthrow you (I can even think of one god famed for their willingness to bell the proverbial cat but I win't say more because of da rulz) so he can't push it until he's the only one sitting at the table while the other eat in a dog's plate. But the plan is certainly for him to become top god for as long as possible. He claimed he intend to use his new power in the goblin's favour but I'll let you decide what you think a politician's promise is worth. As for what Redclaok calls "betterment of goblin lives", last time he got to create a nation he gave it the motto "screw you! It's our turn now" and instituted chattel slavery, so I think it's pretty clear he's not gunning for civil rights.

Of course, t's also possible that unberknownst to Redcloak, TDO has gone so far off-kilter that once given control over the Snarl's cosmological position he'd immeditaely fire it on the plane with the highest concentration of gods. We'll just have to wait and see.

[dancrilis]

Why not just tell them, or make another red-cloak?

Generally in DnD Gods don't toss out artifacts like they are nothing - why is not really explained (to memory) but my suspicion is that opposing deities would start pulling the same stunts for their followers and so it ultimately causes a headache for everyone.



My pet theory: the TDO is full of bull. If he really wanted to give goblins a fair chance, he should have just told Redcloak to a) level up and b) conquer a city (a fairly Evil thing, but reasonable within mortal limits and it doesn't risk the entire multiverse). If he was any decent god, he should've told Redcloak that allying with Xykon is a terrible idea. (Can gods see the future?)

Odin seems to be able to have the ability to see the future - but if others have it I don't think it has been shown.

It is entirely possible that without Xykon around Redcloak would have been dead a long time ago.
Hel has tried to establish herself a clergy but when she does some adventurers show up and kill them, it is possible that the Dark One would have had the same issue except that his head priest got a powerful protector.

[masamune1]

Why not just tell them, or make another red-cloak?

My pet theory: the TDO is full of bull. If he really wanted to give goblins a fair chance, he should have just told Redcloak to a) level up and b) conquer a city (a fairly Evil thing, but reasonable within mortal limits and it doesn't risk the entire multiverse). If he was any decent god, he should've told Redcloak that allying with Xykon is a terrible idea. (Can gods see the future?)

If the gods could see the future they wouldn't need to vote on the possibility of the world ending or not- they would know it would or would not happen one way or the other.

[Fyraltari]

Why not just tell them, or make another red-cloak?

My pet theory: the TDO is full of bull. If he really wanted to give goblins a fair chance, he should have just told Redcloak to a) level up and b) conquer a city (a fairly Evil thing, but reasonable within mortal limits and it doesn't risk the entire multiverse). If he was any decent god, he should've told Redcloak that allying with Xykon is a terrible idea. (Can gods see the future?)
TDO is Lawful Evil. And what've seen of gods make me think that when a god goes evil, they go full evil.


Odin seems to be able to have the ability to see the future - but if others have it I don't think it has been shown.

It is entirely possible that without Xykon around Redcloak would have been dead a long time ago.
Hel has tried to establish herself a clergy but when she does some adventurers show up and kill them, it is possible that the Dark One would have had the same issue except that his head priest got a powerful protector.
Tiamat has given the gift of prophecy to the oracle and Rooster gave it to Sangwaan. My own headcannon is that each pantheon has a designated god of prophecy. I doubt Team Violet's Pantheon of One has that angle covered yet.

[Peelee]

First: betting the survivla of the entire world even at 0.001 odd is terrible.

As terrible as stealing 40 cakes? An oldie, but a goodie.

[Psyren]

No, that line by Thor means that Durkon already used that name.

Right, I'm just pointing out that he definitely knew it before this meeting.


They probably learned it when going through his stuff. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html)

While that is likely to be Redcloak since he's the only goblin cleric, Haley and the resistance have also collectively used "goblins" to describe both the greenskins and the hobbos at various points, so it doesn't have to be.

[Fyraltari]

Right, I'm just pointing out that he definitely knew it before this meeting.



While that is likely to be Redcloak since he's the only goblin cleric, Haley and the resistance have also collectively used "goblins" to describe both the greenskins and the hobbos at various points, so it doesn't have to be.

How many do you think get a private bathroom?

[Squire Doodad]

While that is likely to be Redcloak since he's the only goblin cleric, Haley and the resistance have also collectively used "goblins" to describe both the greenskins and the hobbos at various points, so it doesn't have to be.

Something that always bothered me about that scene: while it was just a throwaway gag and nothing bad happened, couldn't they have just cast a fireball or any fire-based skill at the corpse and burned away the flesh? It is possible none of the mages had actually learned fireball in particular, but still. Or maybe they could have held the body outside, and charred off bits of it at a time so the smoke doesn't risk detection.

[understatement]

First: betting the survivla of the entire world even at 0.001 odd is terrible.
Second: That was four gates ago, things have changed.

He's Evil for betting any of the world on it. Never said he wasn't. But he views it relatively rationally as an Evil person would.


Oh he's cares about goblin well-being, that's for sure. It's a distant third behind "revenge" as #2 and sunk-cost fallacy at #1.


Sunk-cost fallacy is to Xykon, not the plan. If he turns on Xykon, #1 is out. As for #2, he does mention that killing Thanh wasn't as satisfying as he remembered, but I guess at this point it doesn't matter, since I doubt Redcloak will ever return to Gobbotopia.


As for what Redclaok calls "betterment of goblin lives", last time he got to create a nation he gave it the motto "screw you! It's our turn now" and instituted chattel slavery, so I think it's pretty clear he's not gunning for civil rights.

Of course, t's also possible that unberknownst to Redcloak, TDO has gone so far off-kilter that once given control over the Snarl's cosmological position he'd immeditaely fire it on the plane with the highest concentration of gods. We'll just have to wait and see.

Well, he's gunning rights for goblinoids, and maybe-vaguely monster races. The slavery part, again, marks him as evil and not some Neutral do-gooder (?). Diplomacy != getting away with your crimes, and I suspect the Order will make him answer for them.

[Peelee]

How many do you think get a private bathroom?

Jirix probably did.

[Squire Doodad]

Jirix probably did.

I assumed it was Jirix's bathroom too.

[LadyEowyn]

Diplomacy frequently means getting away with your crimes. It’s why peace treaties (as opposed to terms of surrender) don’t usually lead to one side of the negotiations being arrested.

EDIT: Huh, where did the post I was replying to go...?

[dancrilis]

Tiamat has given the gift of prophecy to the oracle and Rooster gave it to Sangwaan. My own headcannon is that each pantheon has a designated god of prophecy. I doubt Team Violet's Pantheon of One has that angle covered yet.

Ah yes thanks - I had forgotten about them, and it is a fair assumption that if they can grant the gift they likely have it (although not certain as some DnD entities can't do what they can grant).

[Fyraltari]

He's Evil for betting any of the world on it. Never said he wasn't. But he views it relatively rationally as an Evil person would.

He murdered his own brother rather than admit to his failures. He’s not rational he’s a fifty year old stuck in the body and mindset of an angry teen.
I do agree that he’s ‘as rational as an evil person would [be]’ though.



Sunk-cost fallacy is to Xykon, not the plan. If he turns on Xykon, #1 is out.
Which is why he’ll do the irrational thing and stick with murderous skeleton.

[Squire Doodad]

Ah yes thanks - I had forgotten about them, and it is a fair assumption that if they can grant the gift they likely have it (although not certain as some DnD entities can't do what they can grant).

And then Odin is the Northern one.
I'm not sure who the Eastern God of prohpecy would be, though it's a bit of a moot point.

[Fyraltari]

Jirix probably did.


I assumed it was Jirix's bathroom too.

Fair point. Then they probably learned Redcloak’s name by going through Jirix’s stuff.
I still find it funnier if it was Redcloak’s bathroom though.

[Psyren]

How many do you think get a private bathroom?

Among the clerics, I'm guessing "more than one." At the very least Jirix probably has one too.


Something that always bothered me about that scene: while it was just a throwaway gag and nothing bad happened, couldn't they have just cast a fireball or any fire-based skill at the corpse and burned away the flesh? It is possible none of the mages had actually learned fireball in particular, but still. Or maybe they could have held the body outside, and charred off bits of it at a time so the smoke doesn't risk detection.

It's yet another gaming gag whereby PCs hauling around their dead party member's corpse typically gloss over things like decomposition and... uh... other things corpses do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tHJK2CSz6Q) unless they have a mechanical impact, which smells usually don't.

[dancrilis]

EDIT: Huh, where did the post I was replying to go...?

Here I believe:


Well, he's gunning rights for goblinoids, and maybe-vaguely monster races. The slavery part, again, marks him as evil and not some Neutral do-gooder (?). Diplomacy != getting away with your crimes, and I suspect the Order will make him answer for them.

I am assuming that based on content.

[Quebbster]

And then Odin is the Northern one.
I'm not sure who the Eastern God of prohpecy would be, though it's a bit of a moot point.
{scrubbed}

[understatement]

Diplomacy frequently means getting away with your crimes. It’s why peace treaties (as opposed to terms of surrender) don’t usually lead to one side of the negotiations being arrested.

EDIT: Huh, where did the post I was replying to go...?

Somewhere above.

I've probably mentioned this before, but I can't see the Order letting Redcloak walk away (metaphorically). Especially Haley. Heck, he personally murdered all of the Resistanc, and they all view him as complicit (which he is) in a Plan involving destroying the world.


He murdered his own brother rather than admit to his failures. He’s not rational he’s a fifty year old stuck in the body and mindset of an angry teen.
I do agree that he’s ‘as rational as an evil person would [be]’ though.

Which is why he’ll do the irrational thing and stick with murderous skeleton.

I had to laugh at "murdeous skeleton."

But will he, though? He clearly views himself as a different faction from Xykon (in this comic he mentions he won't let the Order "stop me." And I honestly think that miight be the climax -- if he can 'grow up' and sink the fallacy, or, uh, get sunk by it.

Antimetaboles are not my forte.


Fair point. Then they probably learned Redcloak’s name by going through Jirix’s stuff.
I still find it funnier if it was Redcloak’s bathroom though.

Apart from that early strip (you know the one), do people in OOTS even need to go to bathrooms? The whole Order does fine at the pyramid, Redcloak spends a whole day standing in the Battle of Azure City, etc etc. Then again, this is OOTS, not ASOIAF.

[dancrilis]

Apart from that early strip (you know the one), do people in OOTS even need to go to bathrooms?

Yes. Panel 8. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

Edit: Also (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)

[HUMVEE Driver]

I just saw a goblin tower over a dwarf as he threatened him.

FAIL.

[Fyraltari]

Somewhere above.

I've probably mentioned this before, but I can't see the Order letting Redcloak walk away (metaphorically). Especially Haley. Heck, he personally murdered all of the Resistanc, and they all view him as complicit (which he is) in a Plan involving destroying the world.



I had to laugh at "murdeous skeleton."

But will he, though? He clearly views himself as a different faction from Xykon (in this comic he mentions he won't let the Order "stop me." And I honestly think that miight be the climax -- if he can 'grow up' and sink the fallacy, or, uh, get sunk by it.
I hope so. But this scene isn't when that'll happen, I'm sure of it.

[Squire Doodad]

I hope so. But this scene isn't when that'll happen, I'm sure of it.

A 100 page script for book 7 is awfully short...
Of course, if it wasn't for some things the Giant said I could have looked at this and said "ah, they're putting RC against Xykon now, and then they'll move to the IFCC as the secondary big bad later". But Xykon is apparently definitely going to be the "final boss" here, and there are 2 instances of forcing V to leave left. There's both a laundry list and Xykon as the proper big bad, so this isn't going to quickly solve everything in phase 1.

[understatement]

I hope so. But this scene isn't when that'll happen, I'm sure of it.

I have no disagreements there.


A 100 page script for book 7 is awfully short...
Of course, if it wasn't for some things the Giant said I could have looked at this and said "ah, they're putting RC against Xykon now, and then they'll move to the IFCC as the secondary big bad later". But Xykon is apparently definitely going to be the "final boss" here, and there are 2 instances of forcing V to leave left. There's both a laundry list and Xykon as the proper big bad, so this isn't going to quickly solve everything in phase 1.

The IFCC feel a bit like Hel to me; they're not fightable at all for the Order, and the Order can only stop them by ruining their plans. Maybe Durkon can get Thor to strike against the iFCC?

[Bartok]

So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?


Yes. I also suspect statue is the "plug" like the sapphire was. Secondary guess is the entryway to a dungeon is opened by interacting with the statue.

[CriticalFailure]

I don’t see why the order would have a choice with “letting Redcloak get away with it.”

“Work with us now and then we’ll turn around and avenge your misdeeds” just isn’t great diplomacy, especially towards someone who was also seeking to avenge misdeeds.

[Fyraltari]

I don’t see why the order would have a choice with “letting Redcloak get away with it.”

“Work with us now and then we’ll turn around and avenge your misdeeds” just isn’t great diplomacy, especially towards someone who was also seeking to avenge misdeeds.
Frankly, if it gets to the point that Red is willing to work with the Order, Redcloak might not let Redcloak get away with it. Redemption is a hard road, and he'll have a long way to go before he could forgive himself for what he has done.









Oh god, he and V might go on a redemption quest together in the epilogue. Imagine that.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Interesting to note Durkon claiming he has no weapons midway through the strip. Assuming that he's not lying -- and he tends not to -- then what did he do with his returning hammer of lightning from Firmament? Did he leave it behind there, or on the ship? Or took a loophole by handing it to Minrah as a trained fighter and fellow servant of Thor?


So... Any one else assuming that the gate is a shell game? Not in any of the doors, but instead in the statue, which keeps being prominently featured?

Lots of people have indicated that the statue is a bad idea. How I think this shell game goes is that neither the statue holds the gate, nor any of the dungeons. Redcloak stated the whole area was "built up" out of multidimensional stone, so it seems to me that a thick enough layer of that would block divinations and force someone to rely on dwarvish mining and barbarian strength to get to it. The statue may merely be the "X marks the spot" on the surface, for whoever is in the know as to where to look fathoms below amidst solid rock.

[CriticalFailure]

Frankly, if it gets to the point that Red is willing to work with the Order, Redcloak might not let Redcloak get away with it. Redemption is a hard road, and he'll have a long way to go before he could forgive himself for what he has done.









Oh god, he and V might go on a redemption quest together in the epilogue. Imagine that.

Redcloak and V going on a redemption quest would be extremely entertaining.

I agree that it’s very likely the gate is just encased in stone.

[Peelee]

I don't see why anyone would believe Redcloak "got away with it" even if he doesn't suffer any retribution before he dies. While he would most likely go to The Dark One's battlefield in the afterlife, there's still the chance that he ends up in a much more unpleasant place.

[Fyraltari]

Interesting to note Durkon claiming he has no weapons midway through the strip. Assuming that he's not lying -- and he tends not to -- then what did he do with his returning hammer of lightning from Firmament? Did he leave it behind there, or on the ship? Or took a loophole by handing it to Minrah as a trained fighter and fellow servant of Thor?

Most likely Minrah, she's got to be around here somewhere. Note that at no point does he claim to be there alone.

[understatement]

I don't see why anyone would believe Redcloak "got away with it" even if he doesn't suffer any retribution before he dies. While he would most likely go to The Dark One's battlefield in the afterlife, there's still the chance that he ends up in a much more unpleasant place.

A penchat for seeing characters rewarded/punished on-screen.


Redcloak and V going on a redemption quest would be extremely entertaining.

I third this.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Most likely Minrah, she's got to be around here somewhere. Note that at no point does he claim to be there alone.

True, and I think that's the case.

Then again, the only indication we have was in #1204, where we saw the entire ledge and she wasn't there either (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html), so while she might be near Durkon (as seems probable), the only certainty is that she isn't with the rest of the party.

[Squire Doodad]

True, and I think that's the case.

Then again, the only indication we have was in #1204, where we saw the entire ledge and she wasn't there either (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html), so while she might be near Durkon (as seems probable), the only certainty is that she isn't with the rest of the party.

Or she's just not on screen, though I think Rich intentionally made it somewhat ambiguous so as to allow for discussion.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She could easily be hovering above them while still under the Wind Walk spell.

[Lheticus]

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

{scrubbed}

I shouldn't laugh but your signature is unfortunately very appropriate there.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm eager to see what Thor is willing to offer/concede. In my head cannon there was a conversation between Thor and Durkon about what options were on the table. This wasn't showing because it would all need to be repeated in front of Redcloak.


To memory neither has Xykon or the Monster in the DarknessActually, Xykon killed Fryon with an improvised weapon.

Apart from that early strip (you know the one), do people in OOTS even need to go to bathrooms? The whole Order does fine at the pyramid, Redcloak spends a whole day standing in the Battle of Azure City, etc etc. Then again, this is OOTS, not ASOIAF.
Julio uses the bathroom as well (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html).

There were time cuts in the pyramid where the order could have gone to the bathroom. They probably did so between #891 and #892.

As for the battle, I'm just going to assume the hobgoblins dug a latrine.

A penchat for seeing characters rewarded/punished on-screen. I fully expect Rich to subvert this. I expect the ending to be real diplomacy and breaking the cycle of violence rather that a "good guys" win all.

Maybe they'll have to fight a literal cycle of violence (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/a-vicious-cycle)? Maybe that's what tMitD is?

[Angelalex242]

On redemption? ....

Well, Quoth Lord Soon:

Redemption is a rare and special thing. It is not for everyone.

Though there's irony to be found if :redcloak: achieves what :miko: could not.

[Mariele]

Anyone else willing to bet that this is just the first step in negotiations? Durkon lays a few things out and then backs off so Redcloak has time to think it over?
I like it, but I'll take the bet that Durkon is just going to spill it all and try to persuade him now.


Finally finally finally!!!

I’ve been excited about this plot direction ever since we got the backstory-comics with Thor in the last book. SO glad to see it paying off!
I enjoyed the Tumblr post. :) And I agree.


I really love this comic. People have been speculating left and right about how Durkon would carefully bring up Thor's idea, but I wouldn't in a million years have considered that Redcloak might have been expecting it.
Same. The "no... I actually didn't" stood out to me a lot in this strip. Hadn't thought of that one!


Lots of people have indicated that the statue is a bad idea. How I think this shell game goes is that neither the statue holds the gate, nor any of the dungeons. Redcloak stated the whole area was "built up" out of multidimensional stone, so it seems to me that a thick enough layer of that would block divinations and force someone to rely on dwarvish mining and barbarian strength to get to it. The statue may merely be the "X marks the spot" on the surface, for whoever is in the know as to where to look fathoms below amidst solid rock.
I hadn't thought of that. Clever! That would make Redcloak and Xykon's exchange a nice bit of foreshadowing. Nobody cares about the exposition, indeed. :)


He murdered his own brother rather than admit to his failures. He’s not rational he’s a fifty year old stuck in the body and mindset of an angry teen.
I do agree that he’s ‘as rational as an evil person would [be]’ though.
Meh. Everyone always uses that example of Redcloak being irrational, but imo, Right-Eye's plan did have a lot of holes in it, and Redcloak is... a cleric. Y'know, the people that devote themselves most fully to their gods and do their best to live out their lives as their gods wish? If I was that devout and my god gave me a personal mission and they seemed to "approve" of how I was fulfilling it (giving spells, no warnings, etc), I'd be more inclined to see Xykon as a means to an end as well. His brother wasn't a cleric, he couldn't expect him to see it the same way he did. Does Redcloak feel guilty about it? Yes. Does he seem to suffer from sunk cost fallacy? Yes. But I don't think his decision at the time was at all irrational--he was between a rock and a hard place, and he chose his connection with his god over his connection with his brother. It didn't seem that crazy to me.


I like how Redcloak was so relatively decent to some random dwarf... and willing to listen to Durkon instead of smiting him outright when he learned he was from the OotS. But this strip was different from what I was expecting. The last strip just set up so much expectation for drama and to see it go down in such a smooth way is surprising. Definitely makes me excited for the next strip, though.

[Squire Doodad]

I like how Redcloak was so relatively decent to some random dwarf... and willing to listen to Durkon instead of smiting him outright when he learned he was from the OotS. But this strip was different from what I was expecting. The last strip just set up so much expectation for drama and to see it go down in such a smooth way is surprising. Definitely makes me excited for the next strip, though.

In all fairness, a statue of a great dwarf of whom there are very few records of would be of great value to a dwarven archaeologist of some sort, to say nothing of the hollow being an interesting adventure location. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a group that appeared shortly after team evil arrived at the Tomb with an interest in the statue itself. Whether they were quickly shooed away to save magic, took their notes and left before RC and Xykon returned from a gate-hunting session, or still remain there in the form of ash would be up in the air.

[Bisqwit]

Where is Minrah, though?

[Fyraltari]

Meh. Everyone always uses that example of Redcloak being irrational, but imo, Right-Eye's plan did have a lot of holes in it, and Redcloak is... a cleric. Y'know, the people that devote themselves most fully to their gods and do their best to live out their lives as their gods wish? If I was that devout and my god gave me a personal mission and they seemed to "approve" of how I was fulfilling it (giving spells, no warnings, etc), I'd be more inclined to see Xykon as a means to an end as well. His brother wasn't a cleric, he couldn't expect him to see it the same way he did. Does Redcloak feel guilty about it? Yes. Does he seem to suffer from sunk cost fallacy? Yes. But I don't think his decision at the time was at all irrational--he was between a rock and a hard place, and he chose his connection with his god over his connection with his brother. It didn't seem that crazy to me.
That you think it isn't crazy to choose to murder your brother to gain some vague approval from a distant god is legitimately scary to me. Not joking at all here.

But there's two things wrong here: Even if Right-Eye and him couldn't ake Xykon after he was weakened by the duel (which I doubt) he could have simply chosen not to intervene. In fact, that he did intervene shows that he really thought Xykon was going to die. He could have done nothing an dthen resurrect right-Eye and smuggle him away, or at least try to.

The second is that, he didn't choose between his brother and his god at all. Because Xykon isn't necessary to the Plan. There are others evil arcasne spellcasters in the world. Hell, there are others evil arcane spellcasters in the book. If Xykon died he could have moved on and started again with another caster, one who would be his henchman instead of the other way around. But he didn't? And you know why? Because the sunk cost fallacy didn't start after his brother died, it satrted well before that. It started when the first goblin under his command died. ANd it grew deeper with each death. He didn't kill his brother to obey the Dark One, he killed him because he couldn't accept that he was wrong to ally with Xykon, because he couldn't accept that every goblin who ded because of Xykon died for nothing and that each goblin who was killed because of Xykon died because of him. He killed his own brother because he'd rather murder all the family he has left than face the consequences of his actions and then makes up excuses for his sorry ass and pretends that feeling bad about it somehow makes it okay. Because much like Tarquin, Durkon*, Belkar and Nale (and hell, like Miko in a way) he isn't a rationnal person. He's an angry, immature and confused teenager who just saw his family and friends slaughtered and can't let go of that, can't grow beyond that with all of his worst impulses nurtured and encouraged by an uncaring, vengeful demon-god and the toxic approximation of a human being that serves as the closest thing he's had has a friend. Redclaok is deep-down a terrible person because he refuses to be better and he does so because he is terrified of what the cost would be.

He puts airs of being a serious non-nonsense, in-control, sensible and pragmatic guy but he really is not. If he were well-balanced with a healthy mind he wouldn't be evil.

[Peelee]

That you think it isn't crazy to choose to murder your brother to gain some vague approval from a distant god is legitimately scary to me.

The god is not all that distant here.

[Fyraltari]

The god is not all that distant here.

Is he not? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

[Peelee]

Is he not? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

Imean, when Redcloak dies, if all goes well, he will be spending his afterlife with The Dark One. I'd call that "not terribly distant", despite the lack of video calls.

[Fyraltari]

Imean, when Redcloak dies, if all goes well, he will be spending his afterlife with The Dark One. I'd call that "not terribly distant", despite the lack of video calls.

That he will be less idstant doesn't mean he isn't right now. But more importantly, I have yet to see any eveidence that TDO cares about Redcloak the way Thor cares about his people. He's not being a positive influence on Redcloak is what I'm going at.

[bunsen_h]

Julio uses the bathroom as well (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html).

Mr. Scruffy uses a litter box (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html). :smallyuk:

[Grey Watcher]

Oh god, he and V might go on a redemption quest together in the epilogue. Imagine that.

If the defunct Crack Pairings thread of all things turns out to have made accurate predictions, I officially give up.

[understatement]

If the defunct Crack Pairings thread of all things turns out to have made accurate predictions, I officially give up.

This is gold.


That he will be less idstant doesn't mean he isn't right now. But more importantly, I have yet to see any eveidence that TDO cares about Redcloak the way Thor cares about his people. He's not being a positive influence on Redcloak is what I'm going at.


Come to think of it, the TDO has probably the worst possible influence ever given to a mortal. Was there seriously not a better time to dump the Plan on Redcloak than at the site of his village's massacre? It's almost like he's self serving or something...

Altho he seems pretty nice with Jirix, so who knows.

[dancrilis]

Come to think of it, the TDO has probably the worst possible influence ever given to a mortal. Was there seriously not a better time to dump the Plan on Redcloak than at the site of his village's massacre? It's almost like he's self serving or something...


I think that might have been more 'put on the cloak get the knowledge' rather than the Dark One actively communicating.

[understatement]

I think that might have been more 'put on the cloak get the knowledge' rather than the Dark One actively communicating.


There's the huge-text LEARN, and Redcloak right after that says he "understands it all" now or something. And right after that, Redcloak is already moving on with the Plan (with the weird mind-control-ish eyes) just seconds after his village gets wiped.

I do doubt that's a direct communication, but the fact that Right-Eye states he's "still the same angry kid" maaybe suggests he's, essentially, 'trapped' in that moment? In no way am I excusing Redcloak of anything, since killing his brother is very much on his head, but I wouldn't trust the Dark One with anything either. Doesn't seem like a selfless guy.

[Mariele]

That you think it isn't crazy to choose to murder your brother to gain some vague approval from a distant god is legitimately scary to me. Not joking at all here.

But there's two things wrong here: Even if Right-Eye and him couldn't ake Xykon after he was weakened by the duel (which I doubt) he could have simply chosen not to intervene. In fact, that he did intervene shows that he really thought Xykon was going to die. He could have done nothing an dthen resurrect right-Eye and smuggle him away, or at least try to.

The second is that, he didn't choose between his brother and his god at all. Because Xykon isn't necessary to the Plan. There are others evil arcasne spellcasters in the world. Hell, there are others evil arcane spellcasters in the book. If Xykon died he could have moved on and started again with another caster, one who would be his henchman instead of the other way around. But he didn't? And you know why? Because the sunk cost fallacy didn't start after his brother died, it satrted well before that. It started when the first goblin under his command died. ANd it grew deeper with each death. He didn't kill his brother to obey the Dark One, he killed him because he couldn't accept that he was wrong to ally with Xykon, because he couldn't accept that every goblin who ded because of Xykon died for nothing and that each goblin who was killed because of Xykon died because of him. He killed his own brother because he'd rather murder all the family he has left than face the consequences of his actions and then makes up excuses for his sorry ass and pretends that feeling bad about it somehow makes it okay. Because much like Tarquin, Durkon*, Belkar and Nale (and hell, like Miko in a way) he isn't a rationnal person. He's an angry, immature and confused teenager who just saw his family and friends slaughtered and can't let go of that, can't grow beyond that with all of his worst impulses nurtured and encouraged by an uncaring, vengeful demon-god and the toxic approximation of a human being that serves as the closest thing he's had has a friend. Redclaok is deep-down a terrible person because he refuses to be better and he does so because he is terrified of what the cost would be.

He puts airs of being a serious non-nonsense, in-control, sensible and pragmatic guy but he really is not. If he were well-balanced with a healthy mind he wouldn't be evil.

Yeah, ok, there really aren't enough eyeroll emojis for your first line there. Just gonna skip over that.

This is a universe with a confirmed afterlife and confirmed strong presence of gods. The gods aren't exactly "distant" here. There's not the ambiguity in this universe about gods and life after death that there is in the real world. We've already established death is treated differently in this universe because of this.

I never said that Redcloak wasn't evil. I said that his position wasn't irrational.

Your second point would be a good one if Redcloak could get away from Xykon. He tried that, it didn't work. Xykon wasn't going to let him just up and leave. Maybe Redcloak could have resurrected and smuggled Right-Eye away (and presumably the rest of his living family), but could he keep him from Xykon forever? Chances are he'd into him again while recruiting more goblin villages for the cause. And finding a new arcane spellcaster would be good and all only if he could get rid of Xykon, otherwise he has someone who knows about the gates who doesn't seem intent on letting him run off. I don't think that the chances were as great for Redcloak and Right-Eye to take Xykon down as you do. Wasn't Right-Eye fairly low level compared to Redcloak and Xykon (not sure if that's accurate, that's just how I remember it, since he left to settle down and all). All it would take for Redcloak to not want to participate was knowing that Xykon could kill him, and then the Plan would really be screwed--and not acting and witnessing his brother turn on Xykon and try to take him down wouldn't exactly make Xykon happy.

Didn't Redcloak figure that chances were good that the planet would get made over or some such if the Plan went according to, uh, plan? (Can't check, don't have SoD on hand) Seems very "ends justify the means" to let goblins suffer now--himself included--at the hands of a crazed lich so that future goblins had a better life.

Your opinion is perfectly valid, and I can see where it comes from, but I don't share it.

Edit: it occurred to me that maybe you think that Evil characters are inherently irrational? I don't agree with that, since different mentalities have different values of what makes sense in their worldview and all. I and am thinking of rationality as "what would be rational for an Evil character", with the disregard for dignity, decency, and rights that follows that. This is a character that thinks slavery is all well and good, after all--I don't think his love for his baby brother is the same quality as, say, Roy's love for his baby brother.

[dancrilis]

I do doubt that's a direct communication, but the fact that Right-Eye states he's "still the same angry kid" maaybe suggests he's, essentially, 'trapped' in that moment? In no way am I excusing Redcloak of anything, since killing his brother is very much on his head, but I wouldn't trust the Dark One with anything either. Doesn't seem like a selfless guy.


I think that Right-Eye might have been engaged in two things - firstly he knew how to press his brother buttons, and secondly he was pointing out that Redcloak hadn't lived and grown - but whether that is a function of immortality or mentality I do not know.

As for the Dark One - we know almost nothing about him really, of all the named characters in the comic we might know the least about him, so both trust and suspicion might be unearned (except insofar as people can be trusted to have their own interests in mind and one can be suspicious that their interests align with yours).

[Wraithfighter]

With regards to what Redcloak might demand? I think the biggest thing, and the greatest stumbling block, is Azure City and Gobbotopia.

Redcloak wants a better world for all Goblinkind, and that capital city serving as the foundation for a strong nation to protect the interests of Goblins is the greatest non-divine tool that they could hope for. If there's any prize that could convince Redcloak to help, it's that.

...but beyond the mundane reasons why a Lawful-Good deity like Thor might balk at that (I mean, it's explicitly a slave state occupied by a Usually-Evil species), it's not just Thor involved here. The Southern Pantheon voted "No" to the blow-up-the-world-now plan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), and we have word from Thor that The Dark One's previous ally, Rat, is furious over what happened to Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), and the rest of the Twelve Gods aren't exactly happy about it either. How many votes might they lose if the only way they can stop the Snarl now is to let the Goblins keep Azure City?

How many would shrug and see if they can find a more amenable new god down the line?

[understatement]

I think that Right-Eye might have been engaged in two things - firstly he knew how to press his brother buttons, and secondly he was pointing out that Redcloak hadn't lived and grown - but whether that is a function of immortality or mentality I do not know.

As for the Dark One - we know almost nothing about him really, of all the named characters in the comic we might know the least about him, so both trust and suspicion might be unearned (except insofar as people can be trusted to have their own interests in mind and one can be suspicious that their interests align with yours).



I believe it's mentality. If Redcloak had gotten the cloak (and the Plan) a less traumatic way -- like a simple passing it over or such -- things might've turned out for the better. I view the scene as Redcloak -- who's standing over his master's corpse -- mentally thinking "what the heck happened and what can I do about it to avenge my family?" The TDO via cloak promptly gives him an answer -- "hijack the world." If that's not sketchy timing then I don't know what is.

But who knows what the TDO is up to. Even the gods don't know.

[dancrilis]

With regards to what Redcloak might demand? I think the biggest thing, and the greatest stumbling block, is Azure City and Gobbotopia.

Redcloak wants a better world for all Goblinkind, and that capital city serving as the foundation for a strong nation to protect the interests of Goblins is the greatest non-divine tool that they could hope for. If there's any prize that could convince Redcloak to help, it's that.

...but beyond the mundane reasons why a Lawful-Good deity like Thor might balk at that (I mean, it's explicitly a slave state occupied by a Usually-Evil species), it's not just Thor involved here. The Southern Pantheon voted "No" to the blow-up-the-world-now plan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), and we have word from Thor that The Dark One's previous ally, Rat, is furious over what happened to Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), and the rest of the Twelve Gods aren't exactly happy about it either. How many votes might they lose if the only way they can stop the Snarl now is to let the Goblins keep Azure City?

How many would shrug and see if they can find a more amenable new god down the line?

We don't know how tight the vote in the South was, it might be a single vote can swing it or it might be that Rat* voted to end the world and the other 11 voted to keep it.
*or any other god, or no god at all.

Also Thor likely doesn't care about Gobbotopia at all on a personal level and he might not need any others to help him (we don't know his plan).

If the Dark One is thinking like I am he would would to be recognised as the new Eastern Pantheon and thereby get a senior seat at the main God table and be left alone to oversee a quarter of the world - with that he likely has achieved any aims he has (except petty revenge ones).

[danielxcutter]

Huh... you know, just last book we got some insight on the nature of gods. They literally have some truths hard-baked into them that they are physically unable to go against.

That is not to say they are no more than that, but it really defines a lot of what they are.

What would define TDO? What would his nature be? We’ve seen gods doing obviously unwise decisions because of this; Dvalin was bound by his oath and Loki couldn’t be honest with Hel despite probably wanting to.

As a mortal goblin, TDO probably could have been reasoned with. Considering how he ascended, though... we’ll have to see, I guess.

[PracticalM]

And then Odin is the Northern one.
I'm not sure who the Eastern God of prohpecy would be, though it's a bit of a moot point.

{scrubbed}

[woweedd]

Huh. Redcloak and Durkon actually have kinda a cool dynamic.

And then Odin is the Northern one.
I'm not sure who the Eastern God of prohpecy would be, though it's a bit of a moot point.
Given that Sagawan (the blind chick we saw in some comics a while back) states Rooster as the one who gave her her powers, i'm gonna guess it's him.

[danielxcutter]

Huh. Redcloak and Durkon actually have kinda a cool dynamic.

Given that Sagawan (the blind chick we saw in some comics a while back) states Rooster as the one who gave her her powers, i'm gonna guess it's him.

Eastern is the pantheon that got killed by the Snarl in the first world. The Twelve are the Southern Pantheon.

[Wraithfighter]

We don't know how tight the vote in the South was, it might be a single vote can swing it or it might be that Rat* voted to end the world and the other 11 voted to keep it.
*or any other god, or no god at all.

Also Thor likely doesn't care about Gobbotopia at all on a personal level and he might not need any others to help him (we don't know his plan).

If the Dark One is thinking like I am he would would to be recognised as the new Eastern Pantheon and thereby get a senior seat at the main God table and be left alone to oversee a quarter of the world - with that he likely has achieved any aims he has (except petty revenge ones).

Sure, but on one hand we've had this reminder that the faction devoted to the Dark One has severely pissed off the Southern Gods, who voted to keep the world around...

......and we also have Roy's comments from earlier this book about how the interests of the gods might not align with those of the people of the world.

Even the refugee Azurites would prefer to let the Goblins keep Azure City, slaves and all, compared to the entire world getting blown up or, worse, consumed by the Snarl.

But for the gods, where this is try #242,215,849? A permanent status quo with that kind of god, well, might be better to kill him off by starving him of worshipers, rather than have him around forever...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Your second point would be a good one if Redcloak could get away from Xykon.

That's easy enough. Heal. Cure Light Wounds. The first reduces Xykon to 1d4 hit points. The second removes an additional 1d8+5 hit points. Now, that'd be a Mass Heal and a Mass Cure Light Wounds, so you don't even need to get close any more.

[Andrew Markham]

I can't help but be struck by the similarities between Redcloak and Roy here. They both have very strong logical brains. So they're getting worked up over something and somebody hits them with a well-timed fact and BAM- they go right back to neutral. Plus they both overprepare to the point of almost paranoia.

[The MunchKING]

Eastern is the pantheon that got killed by the Snarl in the first world. The Twelve are the Southern Pantheon.

Yeah, but since there IS no more Eastern Pantheon, poor Rooster has to do double duty, covering all the Southern AND Eastern prophecies.

Fortunately noone remembers the Eastern Pantheon, so there aren't many people expecting prophecies from them... :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

That's easy enough. Heal. Cure Light Wounds. The first reduces Xykon to 1d4 hit points. The second removes an additional 1d8+5 hit points. Now, that'd be a Mass Heal and a Mass Cure Light Wounds, so you don't even need to get close any more.This is one of those things that was changed in 3.5...harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) (and thus heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) or mass heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm) used on an undead creature) is 10 hp per caster level (max 150, Will save for half), to a minimum of 1. It might still do the job, though.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That's easy enough. Heal. Cure Light Wounds. The first reduces Xykon to 1d4 hit points. The second removes an additional 1d8+5 hit points. Now, that'd be a Mass Heal and a Mass Cure Light Wounds, so you don't even need to get close any more.

Xykon is well into epic levels at this point. How is a Heal spell enough to lay him that low? It took a whole pile of positive energy ghost-martyrs and their epic-level leader to even make a serious dent in him.

We also saw Malack already try the negative energy equivalent of that combo on Nale, with Harm followed by a quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. Nale survived by the skin of his teeth and he was nowhere near epic level. I would imagine Xykon would be more sensible and have some sort of solid counter to that idea.

[understatement]

That's easy enough. Heal. Cure Light Wounds. The first reduces Xykon to 1d4 hit points. The second removes an additional 1d8+5 hit points. Now, that'd be a Mass Heal and a Mass Cure Light Wounds, so you don't even need to get close any more.

Redcloak is not going to "get away" from Xykon with sheer spellpower. They're nowhere on the same level.

Plus, don't the undead get good Will Saves?

If Redcloak has to 'kill' Xykon, it'll be as a distraction or turning point -- which is where I once again very subtly slide in my theory that he will do a Mass Heal when/if the Order fights Xykon.


And I suppose that's the tragedy of the situation: by choosing to keep Xykon (un)alive, Redcloak has to stick with that choice forever. Until a group of plucky adventurers come to the last gate, I guess.

[bunsen_h]

Your second point would be a good one if Redcloak could get away from Xykon.

Xykon not being the most observant guy in the world, this might be doable just by handing the Crimson Mantle off to some other goblin. :smallbiggrin:

[Angelalex242]

Xykon not being the most observant guy in the world, this might be doable just by handing the Crimson Mantle off to some other goblin. :smallbiggrin:

He'd have to make the goblin he hands it off to wear an eyepatch, or Xykon will definitely notice.

[Gurgeh]

Plus, don't the undead get good Will Saves?
Liches don't get racial HD, so the Undead save progression is irrelevant - but sorcerers also have good will saves and Xykon's at epic levels and probably has oodles of magic items and spells anyway. He's definitely not going to be crippled by a single sixth-level spell.

If he's on the low end of the Epic spectrum then a failed save could theoretically take him down right away (Redcloak's Heal would hit for 150 points of damage and the mean score for 21d12 is 136.5) but given Xykon's been shown throwing out what are functionally thirteenth-level spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) it's not unreasonable to expect him to be significantly past level 21.

[rbetieh]

Yeah, but since there IS no more Eastern Pantheon, poor Rooster has to do double duty, covering all the Southern AND Eastern prophecies.

Fortunately noone remembers the Eastern Pantheon, so there aren't many people expecting prophecies from them... :smallbiggrin:

There is no "east", the world is pizza shaped. The "east" mentions are just 4th wall breaks to help the audience not get dimensionally lost :-D

[Necris Omega]

I do hope Durkon's got a bang-up sales pitch prepared here, and one he can rattle off real quick before Xykon shows up and sees a new outlet for his sadism.

And... maybe he does. If he was going to be doing this via sending, he'd likely have this work-shopped real nice and tight.

“Gods are going to destroy the world in response to what you’re doing, and they’re only held up by bureaucracy. Thor, however, wants to negotiate.”

While I can't possibly see things getting wrapped up that neatly, it's nice to think that, if not for the inevitable bad timing, justified mistrust, and conspiracies of the Overgod that is Plot to prevent such a nice and neat little arrangement, cool heads and rationality prevailing would see the most parties come away with what they want. Still, there's way too much of the plot left for this to amount to anything more than maybe the seed of an idea within Redcloak's mind long term.

Unless things are about to go off in some truly unthinkable direction.

At the very least, I don't see Durkon getting iced YET AGAIN. *Grumble grumble*

[Belsirk]

I'm wondering why Durkon did not leave snow prints at all. While we can see clearly the path walked by Redcloack and the female hob-goblin, Durkon seems to just appeared between Redcloak and the statue. And we are speaking about Sir Clanksalot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), subtle movements are not on his department.

EDIT: I mean, Durkon is indeed there. We can see how the snow is affected by him. But, there are not footprints at all. And we can see clearly how Redcloack is leaving a trace as he approaches to Durkon.

[Jasdoif]

I'm wondering why Durkon did not leave snow prints at all. While we can see clearly the path walked by Redcloack and the female hob-goblin, Durkon seems to just appeared between Redcloak and the statue. And we are speaking about Sir Clanksalot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), subtle movements are not on his department.

EDIT: I mean, Durkon is indeed there. We can see how the snow is affected by him. But, there are not footprints at all. And we can see clearly how Redcloack is leaving a trace as he approaches to Durkon.I guessed he landed directly on that spot and didn't do any walking, myself.

[understatement]

EDIT: I mean, Durkon is indeed there. We can see how the snow is affected by him. But, there are not footprints at all. And we can see clearly how Redcloack is leaving a trace as he approaches to Durkon.

Durkon stood his ground the whole time.

Speaking of which, what spell was Redcloak going to use on him anyway? Is there anything that can one-shot a fairly high-level cleric without blowing up the whole village? (and yes, I find Hilgya's Flame Strike very dubious)

[Belsirk]

Durkon stood his ground the whole time.

Speaking of which, what spell was Redcloak going to use on him anyway? Is there anything that can one-shot a fairly high-level cleric without blowing up the whole village? (and yes, I find Hilgya's Flame Strike very dubious)

Well... maybe Redcloak was expecting to have another low budget (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) battle ? :smallbiggrin:


I guessed he landed directly on that spot and didn't do any walking, myself.

If the spell is indeed in effect maybe is also his escape route

[Emperor Time]

It nice that Durkon was able to convince Redcloak to hear him out before killing him which has to count for something. And if he likes the plan then he might even spare his life as well. Or at least for the time being.

[hamishspence]

Durkon stood his ground the whole time.

Speaking of which, what spell was Redcloak going to use on him anyway? Is there anything that can one-shot a fairly high-level cleric without blowing up the whole village? (and yes, I find Hilgya's Flame Strike very dubious)

Implosion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm)? Redcloak has used it before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html).

[understatement]

Implosion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm)? Redcloak has used it before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html).

Urghh, what a way to go. Durkon seems to have a pretty good Fort save (being a dwarf and all), so he might have a chance of surviving that. And implosion doesn't seem to be a touch spell.

I'd wager Harm or any of those duel of the clerics spells.

[danielxcutter]

Liches don't get racial HD, so the Undead save progression is irrelevant - but sorcerers also have good will saves and Xykon's at epic levels and probably has oodles of magic items and spells anyway. He's definitely not going to be crippled by a single sixth-level spell.

If he's on the low end of the Epic spectrum then a failed save could theoretically take him down right away (Redcloak's Heal would hit for 150 points of damage and the mean score for 21d12 is 136.5) but given Xykon's been shown throwing out what are functionally thirteenth-level spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) it's not unreasonable to expect him to be significantly past level 21.

Twelfth, actually, but yes. If he lacks non-epic methods of metamagic cost reduction and the “immune to fire” item is a Ring of Fire Immunity, I believe the bare minimum level is Sorcerer 27(Improved Spell Capacity x3 and Epic Spellcasting)... so yeah.

Honestly, in a non-epic game I’d call foul even if he is the final boss. You’d need to be at least ECL 22 to even get proper XP for him.

Oh, and I believe he has a Ring of Positive Protection or something, so Heal probably won’t work anyways.

[hamishspence]

If he lacks non-epic methods of metamagic cost reduction and the “immune to fire” item is a Ring of Fire Immunity, I believe the bare minimum level is Sorcerer 27(Improved Spell Capacity x3 and Epic Spellcasting)... so yeah.

If it were a standard Ring of Fire Immunity from the Epic Handbook, he'd need to be level 32 - Forge Epic Ring requires 35 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, and in Spellcraft.

If it's something else, he may be lower in level.

[danielxcutter]

If it were a standard Ring of Fire Immunity from the Epic Handbook, he'd need to be level 32 - Forge Epic Ring requires 35 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, and in Spellcraft.

If it's something else, he may be lower in level.

Oh okay, thought that might be the case. He’s still level 26 or higher if he doesn’t have metamagic reducers, though, which is honestly still kinda BS for the Order’s level and optimization degree.

[Fyraltari]

This is a universe with a confirmed afterlife and confirmed strong presence of gods. The gods aren't exactly "distant" here. There's not the ambiguity in this universe about gods and life after death that there is in the real world. We've already established death is treated differently in this universe because of this.
I don’t think you understand what I mean by distant. Redcloak has had a grand total of one interaction with the Dark One and it was a one sentence message relayed by a third party. The Dark One isn’t Redcloak’s friend or mentor or substitute father or anything like that. He’s Redcloak’s boss that send him a memo once.



I never said that Redcloak wasn't evil. I said that his position wasn't irrational.
Again, he murdered his brother in order not to have to face his own guilt. And he spent the next year and a half slaving away under a guys he hate while pretending to himself that he was in control (when the guy you control decides how many eyeballs you have, you don’t control him) in order not to face his guilt. Like, that’s the entire conclusion of SoD. That’s not a rational being, that’s not reasonable behaviour.


Your second point would be a good one if Redcloak could get away from Xykon. He tried that, it didn't work. Xykon wasn't going to let him just up and leave. Maybe Redcloak could have resurrected and smuggled Right-Eye away (and presumably the rest of his living family), but could he keep him from Xykon forever? Chances are he'd into him again while recruiting more goblin villages for the cause. And finding a new arcane spellcaster would be good and all only if he could get rid of Xykon, otherwise he has someone who knows about the gates who doesn't seem intent on letting him run off. I don't think that the chances were as great for Redcloak and Right-Eye to take Xykon down as you do. Wasn't Right-Eye fairly low level compared to Redcloak and Xykon (not sure if that's accurate, that's just how I remember it, since he left to settle down and all). All it would take for Redcloak to not want to participate was knowing that Xykon could kill him, and then the Plan would really be screwed--and not acting and witnessing his brother turn on Xykon and try to take him down wouldn't exactly make Xykon happy.
okay, maybe I have poorly worded my position. Let me try again.
Right-Eye is flying away towards Xykon. Redcloak has three options: A) Side with Right-Eye. B) Stay neutral. C) Side with Xykon. D) Obi-Wan Kenobi. The fact that D) is without contest the best option notwithstanding, let’s analyze the consequences of each from Redcloak’s point of view. And remember that Redcloak does not know that Xykon is aware of Right-Eye’s plot.
C) Right-Eye is toast. That’s the one with the least ambiguity possible. His brother dies by his own hand. He can carry on like before and pretend this never happened. He’ll feel terrible about Right-Eye’s death, but he won’t have to admit that people died on his watch for nothing because he made a bad call.

B) This one is the most ambiguous. Xykon is obviously taxed by his fight. But is he taxed enough that a critical on a mid-to-high Rogue’s sneak attack would kill him? Redcloak isn’t sure. So what happens if Xykon wins? Well Right-Eye is dead, but Redcloak (who at that point seriously underestimate how perceptive The much truly is) has no reason to think Xykon will recognize his attacker. At this point Redcloak can stay with Xykon and resurrect his brother and get him away while he’s not looking (and if Xykon is always looking that’ll be one more chip on Redcloak’s shoulder but at least he wouldn’t have murdered his own brother). That’s outcome B1.
Right-Eye wins. Then, Right-Eye lives (obviously) Xykon is dead and Redcloak is forced to admit that the people who died because of his alliance with Xykon died for nothing.
That’s outcome B2.
A) Redcloak sides against Xykon. Given that the goblins are at full power and health and Xykon is not, they have the good odd of winning, as far as Redcloak knows. If they win, see B2. If they die, the Plan has gone through at least three high priests already and Xykon needs one to do the ritual anyway, so odds are good somebody else will pick up the work where Redcloak’s left it. And Redcloak won’t have murdered his own brother. In both case Redcloak has to admit that he was wrong to ally with Xykon, that those who died under his watch died for nothing.

So why did Redcloak chose A)? Was it long term planning for the good of his god’s objective? No. It was because he rejected C) and was afraid of B2). Because he refuses to admit to his own failures.


Didn't Redcloak figure that chances were good that the planet would get made over or some such if the Plan went according to, uh, plan? (Can't check, don't have SoD on hand) Seems very "ends justify the means" to let goblins suffer now--himself included--at the hands of a crazed lich so that future goblins had a better life.
Redcloak figures that if he messes up the Gates too much and the world explodes, the Dark One will at least be part of the creation of the next world. Something that I expect to see brought up soon-ish in comic. The thing about ends justifying means is how Redcloak saw things in the beginning, but that flew through the window after the café scene when Xykon took over the operation and started slaughtering goblins indiscriminately. That guy is a nutcase, time to ditch him and start over with someone manageable. And yes they could have taken him out, they are his right hand men, they could have organised some kind of ambush. Create an anti-magic zone in his room and gang-up on him with a dozen warriors. Right-Eye tried to ally with Eugene to take him down and we know Xykon has other ennemies, they could have gone further in that direction.


Your opinion is perfectly valid, and I can see where it comes from, but I don't share it.
Likewise.


Edit: it occurred to me that maybe you think that Evil characters are inherently irrational? I don't agree with that, since different mentalities have different values of what makes sense in their worldview and all. I and am thinking of rationality as "what would be rational for an Evil character", with the disregard for dignity, decency, and rights that follows that. This is a character that thinks slavery is all well and good, after all--I don't think his love for his baby brother is the same quality as, say, Roy's love for his baby brother.
It’s a bit more complicated than that. Rational may not be the right term. People aren’t rational. As David Hume said, « Reason is a slave to the passions. » We don’t choose our objectives based on reason but on emotions, reason being the tool we use to figure out how to bring our goals about. Even ‘making the world better’ isn’t a rational goal but an emotional one. But I think Redcloak isn’t reasonable and by that I mean that not only is he not honest to himself about his own goal but that they are self defeating (in that in order to feel better about the death of his goblins, he causes the death of more goblins rincé and reapeat) and self-destructive (he is on quite the suicide mission). And he locked himself into his mode of thinking in a circular reasonning that starts and ends with ‘I was never wrong’.
And I think this unreasonableness, this unwillingness to change and confront reality is a core part of what make characters evil in OOTS. Name, Tarquin, Tsukiko Crystal and Bozzok all rejected reality when the evidence that they were wrong was flying in their faces. Tarquin, Durkon*, Hel and Loki all refuse to accept that what they are doing his wrong or to accept blame for their mistakes. Belkar meanwhile, has accepted that he needs to change and has made some progress in that direction which means that he may end-up not evil when all is said and done (still a long and bumpy road ahead). And Vaarsuvius has accepted blame for their crime and are willing to face the consequences and do whatever they can to atone. The only real outlier here is Xykon, and he is less a character than a destructive force of nature. George R. R. Martin said once that the only thing worth writing about is the human spirit in conflict with itself. And I think he is on to something. I think that that’s what makes Redcloak’s character so compelling. He isn’t coldly weighing the cost of his actions while keeping his eyes on the prize. He is doubling down on his mistakes so he can escape the consequences. I want him to see the folly of his way, but I also understand how hard that would be. Which is why I enjoy this so much.

[dancrilis]

This is one of those things that was changed in 3.5...harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) (and thus heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) or mass heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm) used on an undead creature) is 10 hp per caster level (max 150, Will save for half), to a minimum of 1. It might still do the job, though.


Isn't Xykon immune to positive energy due to a ring he has so the entire plan would be a non-starter.

[hamishspence]

That's what he claims, yes.

To be exact, Right Eye's dagger grants the ability to sneak attack undead - through being infused with positive energy, and Xykon claims his ring grants him protection from those positive energy attacks.

However, it seems the Oathspirits (positive energy undead) can damage him a little, though it's not clear if that's through Smite Evil attempts or regular positive energy - if positive energy can damage Xykon, then it may be that it's only immunity to that special "undead-damaging sneak attack" that the ring grants.

Or Xykon could just have been bluffing all along.


Another important factor - Xykon was blown up in Dungeon Crawling Fools and regenerated. In the process he may have left some of his magic items behind.

[ArkenBrony]

Oh okay, thought that might be the case. He’s still level 26 or higher if he doesn’t have metamagic reducers, though, which is honestly still kinda BS for the Order’s level and optimization degree.

technically there are many ways he could have cast that spell at level 21, sudden maximize is my usual suggestion. there are just too many ways to cheat things out earlier to know for sure.

[danielxcutter]

technically there are many ways he could have cast that spell at level 21, sudden maximize is my usual suggestion. there are just too many ways to cheat things out earlier to know for sure.

Considering the context, Sudden Maximize seems like a bit of a cop-out.

[ratfox]

Yay! Immediate automatic implosion spell averted! Now to convincingly argue that Redcloak can achieve what his god wants through different means...
That might be a very uphill battle though. Redcloak's plan involved getting complete control of the rift, so the Dark One can threaten the other gods and get anything he wants; that still seems like a safer bet than pinky-swear promises.

Dark Ones have learned not to trust vague promises of equal rights. Ahem.

[RatElemental]

Oh god, he and V might go on a redemption quest together in the epilogue. Imagine that.

I never knew how much I needed this until I read this sentence.

[Doctor West]

Xykon is well into epic levels at this point. How is a Heal spell enough to lay him that low? It took a whole pile of positive energy ghost-martyrs and their epic-level leader to even make a serious dent in him.

We also saw Malack already try the negative energy equivalent of that combo on Nale, with Harm followed by a quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. Nale survived by the skin of his teeth and he was nowhere near epic level. I would imagine Xykon would be more sensible and have some sort of solid counter to that idea.

To be fair, Nale probably survived that because Malack missed with the second touch attack.
*returns to lurking*

[woweedd]

Eastern is the pantheon that got killed by the Snarl in the first world. The Twelve are the Southern Pantheon.
Ah...Apollo, best guess?

[Cirin]

With Evil Clerics. We don't know that Nergal is an evil god.

Nergal has traditionally been labeled as Neutral Evil in the D&D alignment system in official works, like the 2005 sourcebook Sandstorm, or the 1996 work On Hallowed Ground.

We don't know for absolute sure if that's carried through in OotS, but it's certainly consistent with the one cleric of Nergal we've encountered and is the usual D&D classification of that deity.

[danielxcutter]

Nergal has traditionally been labeled as Neutral Evil in the D&D alignment system in official works, like the 2005 sourcebook Sandstorm, or the 1996 work On Hallowed Ground.

We don't know for absolute sure if that's carried through in OotS, but it's certainly consistent with the one cleric of Nergal we've encountered and is the usual D&D classification of that deity.

Plus, you know, vampires.

[Cirin]

Liches don't get racial HD, so the Undead save progression is irrelevant - but sorcerers also have good will saves and Xykon's at epic levels and probably has oodles of magic items and spells anyway. He's definitely not going to be crippled by a single sixth-level spell.

If he's on the low end of the Epic spectrum then a failed save could theoretically take him down right away (Redcloak's Heal would hit for 150 points of damage and the mean score for 21d12 is 136.5) but given Xykon's been shown throwing out what are functionally thirteenth-level spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) it's not unreasonable to expect him to be significantly past level 21.

To have both Epic Spellcasting (for Cloister etc.) and at least 4 of the feat Improved Spell Capacity (to have a 13th level slot), he'd have to be at least 26th level.

12+25d12 comes to, on average 175 HP. Not enough for a single Heal spell to take down. Heal would put him at ~25 HP. You'd need something with more oomph than just a Cure Light Wounds to bring him to negative.

[dancrilis]

To have both Epic Spellcasting (for Cloister etc.) and at least 4 of the feat Improved Spell Capacity (to have a 13th level slot), he'd have to be at least 26th level.


Lets assume Improved Spell Capacity is how he cast Maximised Energy Drain - why are you thinking he needed a 13th level spell slot?
Seperately if you do think it was a 13th level spell slot how would he have the 5 epic feats you suggest by level 26?

[danielxcutter]

Lets assume Improved Spell Capacity is how he cast Maximised Energy Drain - why are you thinking he needed a 13th level spell slot?
Seperately if you do think it was a 13th level spell slot how would he have the 5 epic feats you suggest by level 26?

Probably just a miscalculation. Also, Sorcerer 26 is just enough for four epic feats; that likely precludes PrCs as well.

[Schroeswald]

There is no "east", the world is pizza shaped. The "east" mentions are just 4th wall breaks to help the audience not get dimensionally lost :-D

Alas this completely serious suggestion is ruined by
the fact that we see the Oots world in whole at the end of HtPGHS, and it’s not pizza shaped, it’s world shaped.

[Peelee]

Alas this completely serious suggestion is ruined by
the fact that we see the Oots world in whole at the end of HtPGHS, and it’s not pizza shaped, it’s world shaped.

I see you make your pizzas differently than I.

[Schroeswald]

I see you make your pizzas differently than I.

I mean when I first get a pizza it usually isn't missing a fourth of it but as I understand it thats what rbetieh was suggesting.

[Peelee]

I mean when I first get a pizza it usually isn't missing a fourth of it but as I understand it thats what rbetieh was suggesting.

I meant I make my pizzas as oblate spheroids. With topographical toppings!

[factotum]

I meant I make my pizzas as oblate spheroids. With topographical toppings!

Is that to scale with the actual Earth? Because, if so, those topographical toppings are going to be really, really tiny. :smallamused:

[CriticalFailure]

with respect to the argument that Redcloak’s choice to kill his brother was irrational, you are forgetting that Redcloak thought a likely outcome of Right-Eye’s plan was killing everyone and finding another village to enslave. He wasn’t just weighing killing his brother with doing nothing and everything turning out fine either way, and suggesting that he was is missing the point. Throughout SOD Redcloak is faced with choices that have no easy answers. The fact that most of the key points in the story *don’t* have a clear and easy alternative is kind of the point.

[Peelee]

Is that to scale with the actual Earth? Because, if so, those topographical toppings are going to be really, really tiny. :smallamused:

Oh don't be silly, my oven isn't nearly that big!

[Mariele]

It’s a bit more complicated than that. Rational may not be the right term. People aren’t rational. As David Hume said, « Reason is a slave to the passions. » We don’t choose our objectives based on reason but on emotions, reason being the tool we use to figure out how to bring our goals about. Even ‘making the world better’ isn’t a rational goal but an emotional one. But I think Redcloak isn’t reasonable and by that I mean that not only is he not honest to himself about his own goal but that they are self defeating (in that in order to feel better about the death of his goblins, he causes the death of more goblins rincé and reapeat) and self-destructive (he is on quite the suicide mission). And he locked himself into his mode of thinking in a circular reasonning that starts and ends with ‘I was never wrong’.
And I think this unreasonableness, this unwillingness to change and confront reality is a core part of what make characters evil in OOTS. Name, Tarquin, Tsukiko Crystal and Bozzok all rejected reality when the evidence that they were wrong was flying in their faces. Tarquin, Durkon*, Hel and Loki all refuse to accept that what they are doing his wrong or to accept blame for their mistakes. Belkar meanwhile, has accepted that he needs to change and has made some progress in that direction which means that he may end-up not evil when all is said and done (still a long and bumpy road ahead). And Vaarsuvius has accepted blame for their crime and are willing to face the consequences and do whatever they can to atone. The only real outlier here is Xykon, and he is less a character than a destructive force of nature. George R. R. Martin said once that the only thing worth writing about is the human spirit in conflict with itself. And I think he is on to something. I think that that’s what makes Redcloak’s character so compelling. He isn’t coldly weighing the cost of his actions while keeping his eyes on the prize. He is doubling down on his mistakes so he can escape the consequences. I want him to see the folly of his way, but I also understand how hard that would be. Which is why I enjoy this so much.

I'm not going to respond to the rest since it's all good points that I can't argue with as being flawed, just as not the same opinion as mine. :) Just want to respond that I think this was maybe the crux of our disagreement--I certainly agree that Redcloak isn't reasonable. I consider his actions at the time to have been rational (as in, can be rationalized convincingly given the ambiguity of the outcomes--especially with CriticalFailure's comment taken into consideration) within his worldview and moral judgment, but not reasonable on the whole, no. As far as I know, reasonable connotates a bit more of a "big picture" mentality and more morality than rational does. While Redcloak's plans may be very big-picture, his way of trying to achieve them has been extremely narrow-minded. So, yes, agreed on that much, and that it seems to be a recurring theme in OotS.
Yes, Redcloak's reaction to all of this is going to be interesting, and it makes me wonder about Jirix and Oona's role in how Redcloak sees his priorities, as those are two notable characters with a stake in goblinhood but conflicting goals. Kind of hoping we don't have a Right-Eye 2.0 situation. :(

[Segev]

Given Redcloaks last fight with a cleric, he probably was going to cast slay living. Sure, the other cleric may well save, but there's always bad luck/natural 1s. (That Durkon hopefully cast death ward as a precaution is a possibility, but Durkon also isn't planning to fight if he can avoid it, and sometimes the heroes can be a bit dumb about precautions.)

[KorvinStarmast]

...but beyond the mundane reasons why a Lawful-Good deity like Thor Thor is not depicted as lawful good in this comic. There was much discussion on that during the Durkon and Thor scenes. Thor being neutral good would allow Durkon to be lawful good if you just went by 3.5 rules. But the Giant need not be constrained by the rules as he has said frequently


I never knew how much I needed this until I read this sentence. I think that would be a great epilogue

Also, I got a real kick out of the last panel and the "I was expecting someone taller" joke

[Squire Doodad]

Oh don't be silly, my oven isn't nearly that big!

Yeah, that's what Worldforges and Magrathean Planetary Industries are for.

[Ghosty]

Urghh, what a way to go. Durkon seems to have a pretty good Fort save (being a dwarf and all), so he might have a chance of surviving that. And implosion doesn't seem to be a touch spell.

I'd wager Harm or any of those duel of the clerics spells.

It probably would work poorly on Durkon. Since undead have 0 Constitution, lichdom doesn't affect Fortitude saves, and Sorcerers don't look to have great Fort saves anyway, it probably would work fantastically on Xykon, no? Or Disintegrate (minding Xykon's likely ridiculously high touch AC) or Destruction, if Necromancy spells work on the undead. Spell Resistance applies to all of those, though, and isn't Xykon's sky high there too?

[dancrilis]

It probably would work poorly on Durkon. Since undead have 0 Constitution, lichdom doesn't affect Fortitude saves, and Sorcerers don't look to have great Fort saves anyway, it probably would work fantastically on Xykon, no? Or Disintegrate (minding Xykon's likely ridiculously high touch AC) or Destruction, if Necromancy spells work on the undead. Spell Resistance applies to all of those, though, and isn't Xykon's sky high there too?

Xykon is immune to Implosion and Destruction.
Xykon might not have any spell resistance.
Disintegrate is a good option - unless Xykon has factored it into his survival plans, which he might very well have done he has been around for a while after all and doesn't seem to get killed that often.

[Squire Doodad]

It probably would work poorly on Durkon. Since undead have 0 Constitution, lichdom doesn't affect Fortitude saves, and Sorcerers don't look to have great Fort saves anyway, it probably would work fantastically on Xykon, no? Or Disintegrate (minding Xykon's likely ridiculously high touch AC) or Destruction, if Necromancy spells work on the undead. Spell Resistance applies to all of those, though, and isn't Xykon's sky high there too?

234 pages later:

:xykon: "Damn, I knew I shouldn't have used Magic Resistance as my dump stat."

[gatemansgc]

Well, Redcloak got reasonable much more quickly than I expected. I suppose Durkon hit him with some sense, though.

Even though he never struck a blow.

i was kind of expecting complete disaster!

[understatement]

It probably would work poorly on Durkon. Since undead have 0 Constitution, lichdom doesn't affect Fortitude saves, and Sorcerers don't look to have great Fort saves anyway, it probably would work fantastically on Xykon, no? Or Disintegrate (minding Xykon's likely ridiculously high touch AC) or Destruction, if Necromancy spells work on the undead. Spell Resistance applies to all of those, though, and isn't Xykon's sky high there too?

I was referring to Durkon, and he has good Fort and Will saves. Honestly there's probably no non-epic spell that can remove Xykon completely. Except Miracle.

...I wish Redcloak can just cast Miracle in the end and ask the TDO to dump Xykon in a volcano.


Someone just mentioned it, but I can't seem to find it...was Xykon bluffing about the positive energy ring? If he was...jeez. What a ****.

[KorvinStarmast]

i was kind of expecting complete disaster! Give it time. We have only had one comic strip for their interaction. They are at the North Pole. Things almost only "go South" from the North Pole :smallbiggrin:

[dancrilis]

I was referring to Durkon, and he has good Fort and Will saves. Honestly there's probably no non-epic spell that can remove Xykon completely. Except Miracle.

...I wish Redcloak can just cast Miracle in the end and ask the TDO to dump Xykon in a volcano.
Xykon is immune to fire damage.




Someone just mentioned it, but I can't seem to find it...was Xykon bluffing about the positive energy ring? If he was...jeez. What a ****.


You are likely thinking of this:

That's what he claims, yes.

To be exact, Right Eye's dagger grants the ability to sneak attack undead - through being infused with positive energy, and Xykon claims his ring grants him protection from those positive energy attacks.

However, it seems the Oathspirits (positive energy undead) can damage him a little, though it's not clear if that's through Smite Evil attempts or regular positive energy - if positive energy can damage Xykon, then it may be that it's only immunity to that special "undead-damaging sneak attack" that the ring grants.

Or Xykon could just have been bluffing all along.


Another important factor - Xykon was blown up in Dungeon Crawling Fools and regenerated. In the process he may have left some of his magic items behind.

I see no reason to assume Xykon was lying - but he could have been, but such an item would likely be a good idea so I see no reason he wouldn't make one when he was bored.

[bunsen_h]

I'm being reminded of Babylon 5, when the supposed climactic conflict appeared a lot earlier than people expected to make room for another climactic conflict. The B5 spin-off Crusade was planned to have the same: the Drakh plague appeared initially to be the Big Problem, but in fact was going to be sorted out in a year or so, revealing a much bigger problem. And Rich cites B5 as a model for storytelling.


I meant I make my pizzas as oblate spheroids. With topographical toppings!

Now thinking of pizza-making in zero gravity. One starts with two flat discs of dough, joined at the edges. Inflate like a balloon, smooth out any irregularities, add toppings (coatings? there is no top), gently maneuver into the oven. One would want to include at least two vent holes placed symmetrically, to avoid the thing bursting as the gas inside expands. Some kind of tether would be a good idea too.

[Jasdoif]

I mean when I first get a pizza it usually isn't missing a fourth of it but as I understand it thats what rbetieh was suggesting....wait. What if the Snarl is Super Pac-Man?


Disintegrate is a good option - unless Xykon has factored it into his survival plans, which he might very well have done he has been around for a while after all and doesn't seem to get killed that often.Yeah, make warlocks cry ray deflection is a 4th-level spell that'd make him impervious to disintegrate.

[Mandor]

Durkon is not NEARLY out of the woods yet.
It's still extremely probable that Redcloak will want to take him captive EVEN IF Durkon gets to lay out Thor's proposal and EVEN IF Redcloak considers it seriously and agrees to run it past The Dark One next time he prays for spells.

If nothing else, Redcloak has recognized him as the cleric with Order of the Stick.
He'll want him as a hedge / hostage against possible interference by Roy et al.
He may even simply kill Durkon even after listening to his proposal.

My personal suspicion is that Minrah is hanging back with a Scroll of Raise Dead and various items to move undetected, against just that possibility... quietly drag the corpse away and raise after.

[Peelee]

Now thinking of pizza-making in zero gravity.
That was actually my original intent. I've been known to have a problem being too subtle for my own good from time to time, though.

One starts with two flat discs of dough

I reject Flat Pizza theory!

[One Skunk Todd]

If Durkon doesn't have his weapons, and is NOT fighting back against Redcloak, does that count as "Dying in Battle" if he's killed? Is he risking literal Hel here?

[bunsen_h]

I reject Flat Pizza theory!

I'm not sure how one might get a spherical pizza other than by starting with something flat and balloon-y. Trying to inflate a sphere of dough to get a uniform spherical shell would be very difficult. One definitely wouldn't want a pizza built on a non-hollow sphere of dough; that would be far too much dough relative to coatings/toppings. I suppose one might start with a long strand of dough and wind it into a spherical shape.

[Squire Doodad]

That was actually my original intent. I've been known to have a problem being too subtle for my own good from time to time, though.


I reject Flat Pizza theory!

What about the Darylian-Sicilian theory?

THEPIZZAISSQUARE

[deltamire]

One starts with two flat discs of dough, joined at the edges. Inflate like a balloon, smooth out any irregularities, add toppings (coatings? there is no top), gently maneuver into the oven. One would want to include at least two vent holes placed symmetrically, to avoid the thing bursting as the gas inside expands. Some kind of tether would be a good idea too.
Is that . . . Is that not a non-semicircle calzone? Probably not, if you've stuck the toppings on the outside, though they'd probably all float off if you did . . .

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is that . . . Is that not a non-semicircle calzone? Probably not, if you've stuck the toppings on the outside, though they'd probably all float off if you did . . .

Not if you bake in a smallish black hole in the middle, to provide sufficient gravitational attraction for the toppings to stick.

Or, you know, some kind of edible glue. But that's the easy way.

Grey Wolf

[One Skunk Todd]

I'm not sure how one might get a spherical pizza other than by starting with something flat and balloon-y. Trying to inflate a sphere of dough to get a uniform spherical shell would be very difficult. One definitely wouldn't want a pizza built on a non-hollow sphere of dough; that would be far too much dough relative to coatings/toppings. I suppose one might start with a long strand of dough and wind it into a spherical shape.

You might be able to do an inverse sphere pizza with 2 half spheres, crust on the outside, toppings on the inside, spin them, flip one, join while spinning, heat. Getting it remain a sphere after words would probably involve a VERY cripsy crust.

[Jasdoif]

I'm not sure how one might get a spherical pizza other than by starting with something flat and balloon-y. Trying to inflate a sphere of dough to get a uniform spherical shell would be very difficult. One definitely wouldn't want a pizza built on a non-hollow sphere of dough; that would be far too much dough relative to coatings/toppings. I suppose one might start with a long strand of dough and wind it into a spherical shape.Pita forms an interior pocket while it's baked; I imagine something analogous in a low-gravity environment could form a hollow sphere....

[understatement]

Xykon is immune to fire damage.
A pool of acid, then?


You are likely thinking of this:
Gotcha, thanks.


I see no reason to assume Xykon was lying - but he could have been, but such an item would likely be a good idea so I see no reason he wouldn't make one when he was bored.

I'm just wondering how the SOD information would be introduced into the main -- "Hey, Redcloak, I didn't have a ring" would be such a low blow that it'd be perfectly within character.


If Durkon doesn't have his weapons, and is NOT fighting back against Redcloak, does that count as "Dying in Battle" if he's killed? Is he risking literal Hel here?

Since Durkon died on a personal holy mission from his god, I'd punt him to Valhalla again.

I have also forgotten that Wind Walkers can go into physical form and back into wind form again, so (I guess) Durkon and Minrah do have a backup plan. If they manage to do the 600ft/round wind they might even escape any possible Dispels.

[Dion]

I’m confused about pizza theory.

Are we suggesting that OOTS-world is shaped like a spherical pizza that has a North, South, and West, but no East?

That makes perfect sense. We’ve seen in the comic that Durkon went South, West, and North again, and got back home.

So the surface of the world is clearly a sqrt(3) dimensional surface where you can only go in three directions. After you’ve gone in one direction, you have to go the other two directions to get back to where you started.

You know... exactly like the surface of a spherical pizza.

[deltamire]

Or, you know, some kind of edible glue. But that's the easy way.
Perhaps corn syrup, if one can stand the taste.

showing my ineptitude regarding baking, but does corn syrup have a taste???? is it sugary?? i mostly see it associated with sugary junk food, but ?????

[Squire Doodad]

I’m confused about pizza theory.

Are we suggesting that OOTS-world is shaped like a spherical pizza that has a North, South, and West, but no East?

That makes perfect sense. We’ve seen in the comic that Durkon went South, West, and North again, and got back home.

So the surface of the world is clearly a sqrt(3) dimensional surface where you can only go in three directions. After you’ve gone in one direction, you have to go the other two directions to get back to where you started.

You know... exactly like the surface of a spherical pizza.

Actually, abiding by the Enixian Law of Geography, the world is a torus-shaped pizza.

[dancrilis]

A pool of acid, then?

Well we don't know if he has protection from it at least.

Miracle would likely be to mimic 'Trobriand's Baleful Teleport', but that allows a Will Save (likely an augmented one unless Redcloak is very familiar with the pool) and even then Xykon seems to maintain his flying ability so it isn't like he would fall into it.

[Peelee]

Not if you bake in a smallish black hole in the middle, to provide sufficient gravitational attraction for the toppings to stick.

Or, you know, some kind of edible glue. But that's the easy way.

Grey Wolf

Obviously you bake it in the form of a Dyson Pizza. This not only gives it a nice, thin crust, but also allows baking by having the heat source focused on the crust instead of the top, as we're not broiling a pizza.