Pathfinder Arcane Archer

[Biggus]

One of my players wants to take Arcane Archer. I've never played it myself but I know it's notoriously poor (a gish class that doesn't improve spellcasting at all? Seriously?).

My first thought was to just give it 5/10 casting, but then I had a look at the PF version and saw that they give it 7/10 casting, and also give more flexible bonuses to the enhance arrows ability.

Has anyone played a PF Arcane Archer? If so, how was it? Strong, weak, middling? Lots of fun, not much fun, OK?

[Kurald Galain]

It's pretty bad. Use this one instead (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/eldritch-archer-magus-archetype/).

[Biggus]

It's pretty bad. Use this one instead (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/eldritch-archer-magus-archetype/).

That's an archer specialisation of a gish-in-a-can class if I've understood it correctly?

If so, thank you for the suggestion but it's not really what I'm looking for. The player is currently an elf Ranger 2/Sorcerer 2 and is looking for prestige classes to make that combo work. They liked the look of Arcane Archer so I said I'd think about ways to make it not suck.

[Psyren]

I think "pretty bad" is a bit harsh. Certainly if your player's primary aim is to be a spellcasting archer from level 1, then Eldritch Archer is probably the way to go as Kurald recommended - but EA does have limitations or lack certain capabilities (particularly at higher levels) that separates it from what a good Arcane Archer build can do too. For example, the EA is limited to the Magus list (minus stuff like Spell Blending) and can thus only use spells that are 6th level and below. In addition, the EA can only put attack spells on its arrows, while the AA can use Imbue Arrow with various denial and control spells as well, like putting AMF on its arrows to shut down enemy casters and magic-using monsters.

Of particular importance is that, if you're trying to look for options for an existing character, a prestige class can be added to a build and continue advancing it while a base class can't, which is another point in AA's favor.

As far as builds, I would recommend only 4 levels in AA (so that your player has a chance of getting 9th-level spells), unless you're also allowing them to use Prestigious Spellcaster.

[Kurald Galain]

If so, thank you for the suggestion but it's not really what I'm looking for. The player is currently an elf Ranger 2/Sorcerer 2 and is looking for prestige classes to make that combo work. They liked the look of Arcane Archer so I said I'd think about ways to make it not suck.
Well, the catch is that the Eldritch Arcane Archer's imbue arrow largely doesn't add anything. That is, it only works with area spells, and almost all useful area spells already have sufficient range that you rarely (if ever) need to attach them to an arrow.

So the way to make it not suck is to (1) allow it to attach any spell to an arrow, in particular touch spells; and (2) lower the BAB requirement, as you're level four now and as written he must either wait until level 11, or sacrifice his spellcasting for Ranger BAB; and maybe (3) add some better arrow enchantments to the list, bearing in mind that the character can easily afford a +1 Flaming bow before this prestige class lets him make his arrows +1 and flaming.

[Psyren]

Well, the catch is that the Eldritch Archer's imbue arrow largely doesn't add anything. That is, it only works with area spells, and almost all useful area spells already have sufficient range that you rarely (if ever) need to attach them to an arrow.

I think you meant Arcane Archer here (Eldritch Archer doesn't get Imbue Arrow).

But beyond that, I'd provide a counterpoint that there are in fact lots of useful area spells that don't have a range nearly as long as that of a bow.


So the way to make it not suck is to (1) allow it to attach any spell to an arrow, in particular touch spells; and (2) lower the BAB requirement, as you're level four now and as written he must either wait until level 11, or sacrifice his spellcasting for Ranger BAB; and maybe (3) add some better arrow enchantments to the list, bearing in mind that the character can easily afford a +1 Flaming bow before this prestige class lets him make his arrows +1 and flaming.

You can get in a lot earlier than 11 if you take some Eldritch Knight levels first. OP's player would probably want to retrain one of those Ranger levels though.

Another potentially interesting option is the Hinterlander (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hinterlander/) prestige class, which gets the AA imbue arrow ability but can advance divine and psychic casting too, in addition to arcane. You might even get it earlier because it lacks the BAB requirement that AA has.

[Arkain]

Another issue is that the traditional Arcane Archer has a problem many such gish builds seem to have: attack or cast (barring swift/immediate action spells), whereas the Eldritch Archer can use the Magus' schtick and do both in the same round. So one of the big mechanical draws for the Arcane Archer really seems to be the ability to use different spell lists - but in that case I feel you'll probably end up with a caster who likes shooting arrows, rather than a gish who actively combines magic and martial aspects, else you lose the ability to make good use of your spell list. All of which is perfectly fine, mind you, if that's what is desired. It also takes comparatively long, as Kurald said, to come online, even if you lower the BAB requirements.

[martixy]

Third party stuff okay? Can I shill for myself a little bit here?

If yes, check out my signature.

Admittedly, it's a rework of 3.5, but given that PF only adds a spellcasting progression, you should be fine. You can tweak enhance arrow to be closer to pf. I've playtested the early levels and it feels pretty good so far.

[Biggus]

Another potentially interesting option is the Hinterlander (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hinterlander/) prestige class, which gets the AA imbue arrow ability but can advance divine and psychic casting too, in addition to arcane. You might even get it earlier because it lacks the BAB requirement that AA has.

Thank you, as it happens the Hinterlander fits very well, defending the borders of civilization is what the current campaign is all about. I'll suggest it to him as an option.


Third party stuff okay? Can I shill for myself a little bit here?

If yes, check out my signature.

Admittedly, it's a rework of 3.5, but given that PF only adds a spellcasting progression, you should be fine. You can tweak enhance arrow to be closer to pf. I've playtested the early levels and it feels pretty good so far.

Yes, I'm open to third party. The game I'm running is using 3.5 as the base but including some PF content. I like the Unerring Flight class feature, I might use that even if I go with the PF version as the base.

[ngilop]

One of my players wants to take Arcane Archer. I've never played it myself but I know it's notoriously poor (a gish class that doesn't improve spellcasting at all? Seriously?).

My first thought was to just give it 5/10 casting, but then I had a look at the PF version and saw that they give it 7/10 casting, and also give more flexible bonuses to the enhance arrows ability.

Has anyone played a PF Arcane Archer? If so, how was it? Strong, weak, middling? Lots of fun, not much fun, OK?

doesn't advance spell casting?

are we looking at the same pathfinder arcane archer? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer? it gives 7/10 progression.

[Psyren]

doesn't advance spell casting?

are we looking at the same pathfinder arcane archer? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer? it gives 7/10 progression.

You, uh, may want to read the post you quoted again (the whole thing this time) :smalltongue:

[ngilop]

You, uh, may want to read the post you quoted again (the whole thing this time) :smalltongue:

I get paid to lead... not read.



:smallwink:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
You can get in a lot earlier than 11 if you take some Eldritch Knight levels first. OP's player would probably want to retrain one of those Ranger levels though.


Originally Posted by Arkain
It also takes comparatively long, as Kurald said, to come online, even if you lower the BAB requirements.

Given how long AA takes to come online, what would be a reasonable fix for the BAB requirements?

[Psyren]

Given how long AA takes to come online, what would be a reasonable fix for the BAB requirements?

You can remove it entirely - the Hinterlander PrC I linked above doesn't have any and it does more or less the same thing as AA.

[Arkain]

Given how long AA takes to come online, what would be a reasonable fix for the BAB requirements?

I'd say that also depends a lot on your view of when things should become available. Personally, in my attempts at "fixing" I've aimed to lower the average prestige class entry from 6+ (3.5 standard, iirc) to 4-5, so that you can actually get to play the supposedly character defining prestige class a good while and enjoy their higher level abilities. I don't have a problem with that, as Pathfinder characters tend to get defining, relevant class features much sooner than in 3.5, anyway. In addition to that you usually give up on higher level abilities of whatever class you could have advanced in, e.g. no advanced whatevers and also no favored class bonuses without spending another feat.
If you want to gate prestige classes I'd maybe do that via skills, e.g. say it needs at least 4 ranks in spellcraft, bam, you know exactly how many levels in whatever you at least need. Admittedly, that's another resource one has to spend, so alternatively, maybe go as low as say +2 or +3 BAB, which would allow for a comparatively early access. You could even be flexible and go "+3 BAB and 1st-level spells OR +2 BAB and 2nd-level spells" to allow players greater leniency with multiclassing or focusing on certain aspects. Or just scrap the BAB altogether, for as written it also takes three feats if you leave everything else, which means without bonus feats you'll have to be 5th level before you can consider the class. Given that many martial classes gain bonus feats and you can start out with a racial bonus feat you could theoretically fulfill the requirements by like level 2-3, which is, again, fine with me, as it's still costly.

Suppose we go with a non-human Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer 2. After completing the first quarter of their entire career and spending most of their feats on the requirements, they are a spell level behind and get to cast as a third (maybe even fifth) level Wizard and put, I don't know, Ice Slick or Color Spray on arrows which also count as magical weapons. In exchange for that: either delayed or no (Advanced) Armor/Weapon Training, spell level access (can be slightly fixed with even more feats), bonus feats, advancement for a familiar, Arcane School etc. Again, I'm okay with that.

[Nifft]

If you're open to homebrew, this (https://www.enworld.org/threads/3-5-arcane-archer-niffts-version.67172/) was used in more than one long-running campaign, all the way through Epic levels.

[Kurald Galain]

Given how long AA takes to come online, what would be a reasonable fix for the BAB requirements?

The catch is that the AA is written as a full archer who does a little bit of spellcasting on the side (and can be entered as such around level 8), whereas the OP is looking for a full caster who occasionally shoots a bow. Hence, inverting the prereqs (BAB +1 and 3rd-level spells) may be suitable.

The design behind most prestige classes is that you enter them between level 6 and 8.

[Arkain]

The catch is that the AA is written as a full archer who does a little bit of spellcasting on the side (and can be entered as such around level 8), whereas the OP is looking for a full caster who occasionally shoots a bow. Hence, inverting the prereqs (BAB +1 and 3rd-level spells) may be suitable.

The design behind most prestige classes is that you enter them between level 6 and 8.

I think this is in part also a legacy problem - if you want to call it a problem at all. While prestige classes like Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer have been updated for Pathfinder, the basic design principles behind them were not. As such we get an enhanced Arcane Archer who is more of a traditional 3.5 "gish" - combines spell progression with BAB, because that's what a gish does and has, right? Whereas later on we got classes like Magus or Warpriest who have drastically different design principles, allowing for combining arms and magic basically from the start, instead of having to decide which to employ in full each round (and often only at higher levels, too, because you first need to get your prestige class(es) started).