Echo Knight/Rogue/Warlock with Devil's Sight and Darkness? Viable?

[Wasp]

Hi everyone

While trying to find a build for a Rogue Echo Knight that reliably gives advantage for sneak attack people pointed out the old Devil's Sight Darkness combo for a warlock as an idea.

Do you think there is a worthwhile build there that combines Echo Knight with Rogue and Warlock to utilize the Devil's Sight Darkness trick to get advantage for sneak attacks through the echo?

The idea is: The Echo Knight places their echo near the enemies while staying 30 feet behind and then cast darkness on an item they carry, so the darkness doesn't affect the party. During the next turn they attack enemies from the position of the echo as a sneak attack due to the advantage of being themselves hidden in darkness (at least according to RAW).

Would it make sense to invest in Warlock levels for that? Or would the MADness and the delay of everything higher level including ASIs be too much?

Cheers

Wasp

[Hael]

I haven’t been able to play an Echo Knight yet, but in principle this is very viable.

The problem is DMs rule on this very differently bc the rule set is so ambiguous and poorly worded for many of the features. So discuss the mechanics with your dm first.

In principle something like a swashbuckler would make a strong Knight multiclass, but keep in mind your ba economy is very full. Also what counts exactly for determining advantage.

Darkness/ds also should provide advantage in the usual way, and you can do other interesting things like use your darkness aura to cover the echo and thus give it higher effective ac. Combined with sentinel and you have a very strong kiting class.

[Spiritchaser]

By RAW you’re clearly able to do exactly what you propose however:

1. Make sure your DM isn’t going to house rule against this. I thought about doing so. I decided not to, but I thought about it.

2. You are triple classing. You need a minimum of three levels of warlock to make this work, and of course 3 levels of echo knight, and you might want to take Fighter to 5 for that second attack. At this point you have to ask yourself if it wouldn’t be more effective to go hexblade and GWM. No, I know it’s not the same but still...

Consider going straight rogue/echo knight, at least at first, but find a way to take the minor illusion cantrip (there are a few, and some characters can have it at first level) Make a wall in front of you. Most foes won’t spend an action to Investigate it.

It’s not as good as darkness/devil’s sight or invisibility, but it comes on line fast.

[Bobthewizard]

1. I think what you are suggesting is correct by RAW, but check with the DM. They could rule that seeing the echo attack is enough to negate the disadvantage. They could say that the "you" in the rule applies to the echo. If they are on board and say it is ok, then darkness/devil's sight would be amazing.

2. I would avoid swashbuckler. It says the enemy needs to be within 5' of you to use their sneak attack feature. I think scout or arcane trickster are better options. Not sure you even need the rogue levels here. Echo knight 3/hexblade X is a great combo.

3. What level progression were you thinking with the 3 classes? I'd probably go hexblade 5 then echo knight 3 then either back to hexblade or take your rogue levels here.

[Keravath]

One way to build such a character is to have as many way to generate advantage as possible.
1) Darkness + devils sight
2) Go arcane trickster rogue for an owl familiar
3) Consider fae warlock for the faerie fire spell
4) Rogue bonus action hide using cunning action

If you want to try to generate advantage as often as possible to enable the rogue sneak attack then you need as many ways to create it as possible since they may work in different circumstances.

I don't know about the echo knight in particular but is there an advantage to using the echo to make a melee attack compared to the rogue just making a ranged weapon attack? Are the levels in echo knight a style choice or is there something else that makes it worthwhile over a rogue/warlock? Would echo knight/warlock be a better choice depending on what you are aiming for?

[Spiritchaser]

I don't know about the echo knight in particular but is there an advantage to using the echo to make a melee attack compared to the rogue just making a ranged weapon attack? Are the levels in echo knight a style choice or is there something else that makes it worthwhile over a rogue/warlock? Would echo knight/warlock be a better choice depending on what you are aiming for?

The echo knight gives you essentially an at will teleport, and the echo plus the sentinel feat can make for some very effective single target control. There are a few extra attacks as well, and at higher level the echo can become a pretty interesting spy, though that might not be relevant to the OP. That said, I agree: echo knight warlock is pretty strong on its own.

[Man_Over_Game]

Odd realization. The Echo cannot be blinded, it is immune to conditions. And yet:

"A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition"

That technically means that the Echo doesn't need a light source to see something. Of course, this brings in a whole slew of problems where you need to decide exactly how it DOES see things, but that's worth another thread. Unless the word "effectively" is enough to justify that the Blinded Condition isn't ever really considered, only its impact. However, that'd bring in other questions, like "Can I be effectively paralyzed without being Paralyzed"?
That's before trying to decide what the hell that'd mean if you wanted to attack from the Echo's location (which would mean that YOU'RE blind, but your Echo isn't?), which is different from using your Echo's senses (which I guess just sees through Darkness with just Disadvantage on Perception Checks?).


Mostly a RAW concern. Food for thought, I guess.

[Misterwhisper]

Odd realization. The Echo cannot be blinded, it is immune to conditions. And yet:

"A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition"

That technically means that the Echo doesn't need a light source to see something. Of course, this brings in a whole slew of problems where you need to decide exactly how it DOES see things, but that's worth another thread. Unless the word "effectively" is enough to justify that the Blinded Condition isn't ever really considered, only its impact. However, that'd bring in other questions, like "Can I be effectively paralyzed without being Paralyzed"?
That's before trying to decide what the hell that'd mean if you wanted to attack from the Echo's location (which would mean that YOU'RE blind, but your Echo isn't?), which is different from using your Echo's senses (which I guess just sees through Darkness with just Disadvantage on Perception Checks?).


Mostly a RAW concern. Food for thought, I guess.

The echo itself has no senses at all, it is an object.

It only matters if the PC can see the enemy.

Also because the echo is an object, you could just cast darkness on it.

I am currently playing an echo Knight and it takes some getting used to.

You will spend a bonus action to summon it a lot more than some think.

[Spiritchaser]

You will spend a bonus action to summon it a lot more than some think.

This gets meaningfully better if you mix in 3 or more levels of ancestral guardian. The debuff will actually protect your echo since it isn’t you

A warlock with darkness and devils sight can do something equally effective

[Wasp]

Also because the echo is an object, you could just cast darkness on it.
That opens up some interesting strategies to move darkness around he battlefield. If you move the echo into the air you may be able to maneuver the sphere of darkness quite effectively...

[Man_Over_Game]

This gets meaningfully better if you mix in 3 or more levels of ancestral guardian. The debuff will actually protect your echo since it isn’t you

Me and saucerhead were actually collaborating on a build for the recent powergaming contest, using AG/Echo Knight. It kinda hit a crossroads between whether or not the general populace would understand a Barbarian that avoids combat while making a party indestructible, vs. A Fighter that spams the attack button a bunch more. There's a much more interesting, powerful, and overall fun build focusing on AG features, PAM, Sentinel, and damage avoidance, but...will people get it? Or will they just vote on whatever's the next Samurai?

I hope to introduce something like that in my next high-level campaign: someone split into multiple selves that all disagree, except on their one goal to protect their friends.

[Spiritchaser]

Me and saucerhead were actually collaborating on a build for the recent powergaming contest, using AG/Echo Knight. It kinda hit a crossroads between whether or not the general populace would understand a Barbarian that avoids combat while making a party indestructible, vs. A Fighter that spams the attack button a bunch more. There's a much more interesting, powerful, and overall fun build focusing on AG features, PAM, Sentinel, and damage avoidance, but...will people get it? Or will they just vote on whatever's the next Samurai?

I hope to introduce something like that in my next high-level campaign: someone split into multiple selves that all disagree, except on their one goal to protect their friends.

Heh

I actually submitted an echo knight AG for the last contest (#4) based loosely on a “NPC for loan” I have for a drop in. It’s solid all the way up and a fantastic ranged tank after level 8.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24560104&postcount=30

Because it’s alien and requires a fair bit of chess it actually makes a really awful build for a drop in character for most players, but then, I have other options for most players

Of course it’s not like I’m getting drop in players at all right now

[Bobthewizard]

Me and saucerhead were actually collaborating on a build for the recent powergaming contest, using AG/Echo Knight. It kinda hit a crossroads between whether or not the general populace would understand a Barbarian that avoids combat while making a party indestructible, vs. A Fighter that spams the attack button a bunch more. There's a much more interesting, powerful, and overall fun build focusing on AG features, PAM, Sentinel, and damage avoidance, but...will people get it? Or will they just vote on whatever's the next Samurai?

I hope to introduce something like that in my next high-level campaign: someone split into multiple selves that all disagree, except on their one goal to protect their friends.

Spiritchaser submitted that build there (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24560104&postcount=30). I voted for it.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Man_Over_Game]

Heh

I actually submitted an echo knight AG for the last contest (#4) based loosely on a “NPC for loan” I have for a drop in. It’s solid all the way up and a fantastic ranged tank after level 8.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24560104&postcount=30

Because it’s alien and requires a fair bit of chess it actually makes a really awful build for a drop in character for most players, but then, I have other options for most players

Of course it’s not like I’m getting drop in players at all right now


Spiritchaser submitted that build there (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24560104&postcount=30). I voted for it.

Edit: Ninja'd

lol, my bad. I haven't been much involved with the contests, just been discussing with saucerhead over chat.

Ours is very similar, with the starting feat being PAM to leverage its mobility for AG features. He's deciding on whether he wants to go for more damage (with Fighter as the base) or more tanking (with AG as the base).

My thought process was 1-3 Barbarian, 1-3 Fighter, 4-5 Barbarian, 4 Fighter, 6-16 Barbarian, picking up Sentinel with your first ASI at 7. The idea is that you don't need Extra Attack in Tier 2 with PAM, Action Surge, and your Con-based Echo strikes, as you have 2-4 attacks in a round without it as a TANK. So who cares if you don't get Extra Attack until level 8?

[Spiritchaser]

My thought process was 1-3 Barbarian, 1-3 Fighter, 4-5 Barbarian, 4 Fighter, 6-16 Barbarian, picking up Sentinel with your first ASI at 7. The idea is that you don't need Extra Attack in Tier 2 with PAM, Action Surge, and your Con-based Echo strikes, as you have 2-4 attacks in a round without it as a TANK. So who cares if you don't get Extra Attack until level 8?

So: you’re really depending on the ancestral protector’s debuff shielding your echo, so that you have a free PAM bonus action attack. That’s certainly not crazy, you’re going to be far better of than most echo knights, at least while you’re raging, but I would actually say that the way PAM interacts with your echo makes it less valuable for echo knights in general.

Basically, you can’t make the bonus action attack from your echo’s space, and on those turns when your echo does go down (admittedly not every round with your target debuffed!) you won’t be able to make the attack at all, as your bonus action is spoken for putting that echo back out.

Any character with sentinel should likely consider PAM quite seriously, And given this build’s role of debuffing and lockdown, at standoff, that goes double here... but given how echo knight works, I’d maybe leave it for later.

[Bobthewizard]

lol, my bad. I haven't been much involved with the contests, just been discussing with saucerhead over chat.

Ours is very similar, with the starting feat being PAM to leverage its mobility for AG features. He's deciding on whether he wants to go for more damage (with Fighter as the base) or more tanking (with AG as the base).

My thought process was 1-3 Barbarian, 1-3 Fighter, 4-5 Barbarian, 4 Fighter, 6-16 Barbarian, picking up Sentinel with your first ASI at 7. The idea is that you don't need Extra Attack in Tier 2 with PAM, Action Surge, and your Con-based Echo strikes, as you have 2-4 attacks in a round without it as a TANK. So who cares if you don't get Extra Attack until level 8?

I'd probably get to extra attack at level 5 if I were doing it, but your way is cool because it gets both subclasses 2 levels earlier. So maybe yours would be more fun.

Having played an echo knight now a few times, I can say the echo gets targeted quite a bit (which is great, forcing the enemy to waste an attack on it). I'm using a lot of bonus actions to pop it back up, though.

I like your take of using the Ancestral Guardian as the main class and dipping Echo knight instead of the way I approached it of an echo knight taking a few levels of ancestral guardian. It's good to see different ideas.

[Man_Over_Game]

I realize you don't actually need too many attacks.

If someone who's debuffed attacks the Echo, they do so with Disadvantage. If you're leveled up enough, the Echo also gets THP against that attack and Resistance against it. The likelyhood of them killing your Echo is fairly small with a single attack, so they'll probably burn through another.

You've just mitigated two attacks at the cost of a Bonus Action. You don't actually need PAM's BA attack to trigger AG more often, you can just use Reckless Attack for that. All PAM's BA is good for on a tank is just offering a way out of using Reckless Attack constantly so your defenses are regularly high. Otherwise, you're generally better off poking your lockdown target Recklessly, siccing your Echo on them, and then backing into the edge of your defensive line for PAM + Sentinel to stop anybody that tries to get past.

With this kind of setup, I'd suspect that you can completely lock down about 2 aggressors from doing anything the entire fight.

You are right that the PAM reaction effect on the Echo is a bit limited, due to the rules of the Echo, but your Reaction is already pretty valuable between your personal PAM + Sentinel combo and shielding your Echo/Allies from your primary target.

Overall, the PAM BA and the OA aren't 100% effective on the Echo, but they aren't *for* the Echo. They're there in case your Echo gets ignored/killed, and the AG features are there for when it's not.

I do see the value of Sentinel on the Echo, I just think that PAM is a better deterrent from enemies attacking you than Sentinel is at locking a target down (since it is easily dispatched).

[Hael]

1. I think what you are suggesting is correct by RAW, but check with the DM. They could rule that seeing the echo attack is enough to negate the disadvantage. They could say that the "you" in the rule applies to the echo. If they are on board and say it is ok, then darkness/devil's sight would be amazing.

2. I would avoid swashbuckler. It says the enemy needs to be within 5' of you to use their sneak attack feature. I think scout or arcane trickster are better options. Not sure you even need the rogue levels here. Echo knight 3/hexblade X is a great combo.


This is where some of the rules get ridiculous with the Knight. You are technically correct about 2 by RAW, but if you are far away from your allies, and you send your echo to engage an enemy 30 feet away (and he's completely by himself with no other allies around), by RAI that should be advantage. It makes no sense that that's not advantage, but then the darkness/ds warlock who is sitting in his inkblot a mile away can engage with advantage with his echo who is not obscured at all.

If I was DM, i'd rule this upside down.

[Bobthewizard]

If someone who's debuffed attacks the Echo, they do so with Disadvantage. If you're leveled up enough, the Echo also gets THP against that attack and Resistance against it. The likelyhood of them killing your Echo is fairly small with a single attack, so they'll probably burn through another.

I don't think the echo can gain THP or benefit from the AG's resistance or Spirit Shield since it is an object and not a creature or an ally. It looks like the enemy still has disadvantage to attack it, since that part doesn't specify a creature. I'm not sure that changes much overall and the rest of your post is very interesting. Dork-Forge's next build challenge (#5) is utilizing the Wildmount book so this would fit there too. I'd love to see this all spelled out if you want to submit it there.

I've experienced the benefit of PAM and an echo and it was great. The DM made me change out my subclass because he said it was broken. I just had sentinel but my teammate had PAM. So we went into fights echo, then PAM character, then me, then ranged Rogue. I can see taking PAM over sentinel, but I'd rather have both.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't think the echo can gain THP or benefit from the AG's resistance or Spirit Shield since it is an object and not a creature or an ally. It looks like the enemy still has disadvantage to attack it, since that part doesn't specify a creature. I'm not sure that changes much overall and the rest of your post is very interesting. Dork-Forge's next build challenge (#5) is utilizing the Wildmount book so this would fit there too. I'd love to see this all spelled out if you want to submit it there.

I've experienced the benefit of PAM and an echo and it was great. The DM made me change out my subclass because he said it was broken. I just had sentinel but my teammate had PAM. So we went into fights echo, then PAM character, then me, then ranged Rogue. I can see taking PAM over sentinel, but I'd rather have both.

That's a sad reality, now that you mention it. It didn't occur to me that the AG could cause Disadvantage, but it wouldn't be able to protect beyond that.

saucerhead is making the submission, he just reached out to me for some rough ideas. And he agreed on the suspicion that most players wouldn't really vote on it. Even if someone was smart enough to figure it out, fewer still would spend the time to read it thoroughly to understand it. A winner needs something big and in-your-face. Something you can't misunderstand or question. I learned that lesson myself.

On the terminator contest (to make THE unstoppable tank), my submission used an often-missed Adventure League rule that works off of the Acolyte Background that, when combined with one of the Zealot features, legally grants a player 1 free Resurrection cast every session (so long as the Acolyte's corpse could be recovered by his religion's temples). As far as I could tell, nothing like it has ever been submitted to the forums, as it was something that only functioned by abusing official AL rules (and AL ain't real popular 'round these parts).

But, uh...No votes, no comments, no rule disputes. As far as I can tell, nobody had read the thing, since nobody even told me how I was wrong! That's not meaning to sound bitter or anything, it just made me realize that the winners need to have someone only glance at it to want to vote on it. When information can come as fast as your mouse wheel, whatever it is needs to be understood in seconds.

Avoiding damage by running away, opting to not use Reckless Attack to preserve defenses, dealing less damage to make enemies waste their attacks; these are not the things that people are looking for. He'll probably go with his original idea of Fighter 16/Barbarian 4 for GWM PAM SPAM, and I'd agree.

Spiritchaser put it aptly:

Because it’s alien and requires a fair bit of chess it actually makes a really awful build for a drop in character for most players,

[MrStabby]

The echo itself has no senses at all, it is an object.

It only matters if the PC can see the enemy.

Also because the echo is an object, you could just cast darkness on it.

I am currently playing an echo Knight and it takes some getting used to.

You will spend a bonus action to summon it a lot more than some think.

OK... wow... this is potentially huge.

Moving darkness about on an object isn't that new - familliar carying objects etc, but opening up some more classes/combinations that can do it is certainly cool.

It certainly opens up other thoughts - no eldritch blast against this target, no opportunity attacks against the echo...

It also makes me wonder how a grapple interacts. So you make an attack action and you can replace one of your attacks with a grapple... is this allowed? How would one break free? What is the echo's athletics bonus?

[Bobthewizard]

OK... wow... this is potentially huge.

Moving darkness about on an object isn't that new - familliar carying objects etc, but opening up some more classes/combinations that can do it is certainly cool.

It certainly opens up other thoughts - no eldritch blast against this target, no opportunity attacks against the echo...

It also makes me wonder how a grapple interacts. So you make an attack action and you can replace one of your attacks with a grapple... is this allowed? How would one break free? What is the echo's athletics bonus?

Yes. Spells that only target a creature can't affect the echo. So no Eldritch Blast, but firebolt is ok.

I don't think there are rules for you to grapple an object. So I don't think there is an athletics bonus to worry about. It's weird.

[MrStabby]

Yes. Spells that only target a creature can't affect the echo. So no Eldritch Blast, but firebolt is ok.

I don't think there are rules for you to grapple an object. So I don't think there is an athletics bonus to worry about. It's weird.

Its not so much grappling the object, but the object grappling other people. A grapple is a type of attack. You still make that attack... it just originates from the echo's space... I guess in the same way you would roll for any other attack your would roll for the grapple check (or shove).

I was thinking for spells like spirit guardians (another spell that only affects creatures) with a cleric multiclass - sending out a shadow of yourself to grab an enemy and pull them into your radius of effect just seemed kind of cool.

[Bobthewizard]

Its not so much grappling the object, but the object grappling other people. A grapple is a type of attack. You still make that attack... it just originates from the echo's space... I guess in the same way you would roll for any other attack your would roll for the grapple check (or shove).

I was thinking for spells like spirit guardians (another spell that only affects creatures) with a cleric multiclass - sending out a shadow of yourself to grab an enemy and pull them into your radius of effect just seemed kind of cool.

I think you are right. I think you could grapple something with it. Now I want to see an echo knight/ancestral guardian/war cleric multi class for spirits everywhere. Too bad rage and spirit guardians don't mix, but they could take turns maybe.