Mystic question

[Tvtyrant]

What was wrong with the Mystic? I was looking at it the other day and it seemed like a fairly neat combination of the 4E and 3.5 Psion systems.

[Dork_Forge]

Some of the disciplines could do with tweaking and the restrictions on disciplines known should be flipped so that they're mostly from your own order. Other than that not much really, I've played it, played with it and DM'd it and no real issues or overshadowing of other characters. Generally the arguments boil down to too versatile which, given the Wizard, isn't the strongest of arguments.

[Kane0]

It was mostly down to discipline access, which allowed you to cover a ton of ground with the one character build.
Just touching up a few things like UAs tend to need would have left it in a pretty good position.

[Zevox]

Trying to cram too many things into a single class. They tried to incorporate both martial and caster-style psionic classes with it, plus the Wu Jen, which is ordinarily an arcane caster, and was thus quite out of place. That attempt to cram everything into a single class probably also lead to the ability they had that would allow them to change one of their save proficiencies, which seemed like a very strange and potentially questionable one, but probably looked necessary in order to let a Psychic Warrior-type take strength or con as their save so they would feel more like the type of character they were trying to build. It also meant that even if you were looking to play a more caster-type psion, you had d8 hit die, light armor proficiency, and at level 8 gained an ability that gave you psychic damage when attacking with weapons, all of which seem very out-of-place on a caster type and the last of which could be completely useless to you.

Plus of course some powers had balance issues. For instance, the Telepathic Contact power "Occluded Mind." For only two psi points, the target makes an intelligence save, and on a failed save it believes one statement of up to ten words that you give it via telepathy, which just needs to describe a creature or object the target can see. So, say, telling them something like "I am your master, you must obey my commands unquestioningly" works. The creature you're describing being yourself, the command is ten words, necessary boxes are checked. Two psi points, an intelligence save, and you get full control of someone for five minutes as early as level 1. Yeah, a little busted.

That said, I don't think there was anything wrong with it that couldn't be fixed. Move Immortal/Psychic Warrior and Soulknife into being Fighter and Rogue subclasses, drop the Wu Jen, rebalance the problematic powers like Occluded Mind, and change the name to something more appropriate (seriously "Mystic" sounds like a generic spellcaster, not a psionic class), and it could've been a great 5E Psion class. Alas.

[MrStabby]

It was a bit too easy to get a bit of everything... but also too easy to use it.

Whist you could be a wizard and get nearly as much versatility, it would tend to chew through spells known and spell slots. This was a bit less of an issue for the mystic.

As all of your effects draw from the same resource you don't need a spell at every level/a good effect of every level. You can just cast fewer big effects or more smaller effects. Yes, it will impact efficency a bit - but not as much as a wizard drawing down a load of utility spells then having no combat spells of 3rd level (although to be fair, wizards ritual casting does help a bit with this).

The mystic also had some pretty powerful abilities using just a very small amount of power. Some even at will. The ability to swap out passive abilities to match the need of the adventure was a bit of an excercise in excessive flexability.


All it all it wasn't as over the top as something like the lore wizard; but it was unreasonably effective due to its versatility. It wasn't even a single ability... just the cumulative effect of a lot of different things:

1) Huge range of what the class could do - healing, buffing, damage, control... basically anything
2) Enough choice that at any point in time you could do a lot of what the class could do
3) Powerful passive abilties that made poer go further
4) Ability to switch out these passive abilities to suit need
5) Power point system that made everything even more versatile
6) Ability to swap out saves
7) Hit point recovery
8) uncharacteristically strong defences for a class that could do these things
9) A small number of really powerful effects that were noteworthy by themselves

[Dork_Forge]

It was a bit too easy to get a bit of everything... but also too easy to use it.

Whist you could be a wizard and get nearly as much versatility, it would tend to chew through spells known and spell slots. This was a bit less of an issue for the mystic.

As all of your effects draw from the same resource you don't need a spell at every level/a good effect of every level. You can just cast fewer big effects or more smaller effects. Yes, it will impact efficency a bit - but not as much as a wizard drawing down a load of utility spells then having no combat spells of 3rd level (although to be fair, wizards ritual casting does help a bit with this).

The mystic also had some pretty powerful abilities using just a very small amount of power. Some even at will. The ability to swap out passive abilities to match the need of the adventure was a bit of an excercise in excessive flexability.


All it all it wasn't as over the top as something like the lore wizard; but it was unreasonably effective due to its versatility. It wasn't even a single ability... just the cumulative effect of a lot of different things:

1) Huge range of what the class could do - healing, buffing, damage, control... basically anything
2) Enough choice that at any point in time you could do a lot of what the class could do
3) Powerful passive abilties that made poer go further
4) Ability to switch out these passive abilities to suit need
5) Power point system that made everything even more versatile
6) Ability to swap out saves
7) Hit point recovery
8) uncharacteristically strong defences for a class that could do these things
9) A small number of really powerful effects that were noteworthy by themselves

Chewing through spells known (and even slots) compared to a Wizard isn't much different if different at all. A 5th level Mystic (that isn't a Soul Knife) knows 5 disciplines (with access limited up to a psi limit of 5), a Wizard of the same level has 14 spells and whilst the spell point varient (which is all psi points are) is more flexible, they are on the same level of resources overall (tipping in favour of the Wizard with Arcane Recovery).

Focuses and Talents are also pretty easily countered by cantrips and rituals (if not more falling in favour of the Wizard as rituals offer their own flexibility based on time available).

They could have done some tweaking and restricted what disciplnies you got to access (like the AT/EK), but in terms of overall power it really wasn't really out of bounds of the Wizard and other full casters.

[Jerrykhor]

Depends on who you ask, IMO there's not much wrong with them. They are just incredibly front-loaded, their power scaling causes them to reach their peak at level 9, which causes people to claim they are overpowered because that is a common tier of play.

They also have a few overtuned and poorly worded abilities. Number of disciplines could use some trimming too. But it was a WIP that got dumped by wotc in the end.

[Appleheart]

It was mostly down to discipline access, which allowed you to cover a ton of ground with the one character build.

Yeah, with 5e they try to make many old D&D archetypes into subclasses, and for the Mystic they tried to fit the old Soulknife, Psion, Battlemind, Ardent, Wu Jen, etc all as subclasses for the same base class. To make this work the base class has both melee and caster features, etc. The subclasses also awards disciplines at level 1, but beyond that there are no discipline limits, allowing a single character to dip into each of the identities of all of these old archetypes. The result is that, if you so wish, you can become a bit too much of a Jack of All Trades.

I've played a Mystic 3 times, and had 3 VERY different experiences depending on what I've made with the class.

My first time I had no idea what I was doing, and I tried to make a melee mystic inspired by an old battlemind or such, and I found the class to be fairly underwhelming and boring to play.

The second time I had read more about the class, and going into playing with a generally optimized group, I specifically picked the best and most diverse selection of disciplines, etc. The character was, as the internet is usually happy to point out, very strong and able to shine at pretty much everything.

The third time I went into it specifically with wanting to play a more typical Psion, focused on telekinesis and telepathy, and only selected disciplines that fit with that theme and such. This character has been, by far, the most fun Mystic to play, and while it is still strong at certain things, it feels a lot more in par with a Wizard.

Ultimately the frame and shell of the class is really solid, and it did have a great potential to become a fun and playable class. It just needed one or two more iterations and some more UA testing. It makes me a bit sad that there has been such fierce community outcry against the class, leading to it being scrapped all together. I fully agree that the UA was too strong, but I don't feel that it was beyond repair as it were. Even now, the class can be a ton of fun to play, as long as you are a bit conscientious with your choices and such.

[Drascin]

What was wrong with the Mystic? I was looking at it the other day and it seemed like a fairly neat combination of the 4E and 3.5 Psion systems.

Basically, the disciplines seem to have been balanced assuming you couldn't pick more than one or two disciplines outside your subclass, except you can actually mix and match however you want, and because they tried to get everything in one class there's some combinations that result in serious monsters and it's easy to have a bunch of various stuff.

If your player is willing to limit themselves in discipline choices, it actually doesn't really unbalance much, I've found out. My Wu-jen is about on par with the wizard, honestly probably weaker, and my Immortal is versatile but also there's an Ancients Paladin in the party so you know, he was always going to be second best.

The other thing I've noticed is that by like level 10 the class falls off a cliff. As a primary caster, "once a day you can hold more than one concentration spell simultaneously" is really not comparable to actually keeping getting new spells. As I approach the cutoff point, my DM and I have been wondering whether to let me multiclass out or replace the thoroughly boring Mastery with something more interesting.

[Arkhios]

For me, the issue was that Mystic had too many things going on in just one class.

I mean, comparing to previous editions, you can see signature themes of Psion (3e) (including all six former disciplines, each of which could be standalone subclasses on their own), Wilder (3e), Psychic Warrior (3e), Soulknife (3e), Ardent (4e), Battlemind (4e). Wu Jen (last I saw it appeared in 3e, but I might be wrong) was a bit of an oddity for a long time, but later I realized it was most likely intended as a replacement for Kineticist due to its theme.

To be entirely honest, I would've expected that the following concepts had been merged into their own separate classes:
Psychic Warrior: Battlemind, Psychic Warrior, and Soulknife.
Ardent: Ardent and Wilder.
Psion: The Former Six Disciplines; Egoist (Psychometabolism), Nomad (Psychoportation), Kineticist (Psychokinesis), Seer (Clairsentience), Shaper (Metacreativity), Telepath (Telepathy).

Now, I understand that it's crazy to try and convert all of those classes into 5e at 1:1 ratio, and as such, merging of the former classes into fewer classes does make sense, but I don't think merging them all into just one class was the best solution, even if they all shared relation to this pseudo-magical power that requires more discipline than standard magic and spells.

Regardless, ever since they introduced the idea that Psychic Warrior and Soulknife could be subclasses for already existing classes (fighter and rogue, respectively), I actually couldn't agree more. Admittedly, those two classes have very little to their own to justify them to have their own classes, and they do have several differences that would make a full merge into one class a bit weird.
In the same vein, I do think that Ardent and Wilder could work as subclasses for two other classes that already exist (Bard and Sorcerer, respectively).

However, Psion (or whatever you want to call it) should be its own class, with its whole schtick being the true master focused on the principles of psionics. Heck, even if it ended up being called Mystic, after all (just, not like this mess).

[Grod_The_Giant]

In addition to the issues that have already been raised, the Mystic has an issue with going nova-- it's too good. Normal spellcasters aren't allowed to cast more than one leveled spell a turn, even if they have relatively rare bonus action spells. The Mystic, on the other hand, has no such limit and has copious bonus action effects, letting you blow through your resources twice as fast as a normal caster. Add on the fact that spell points are already prone to that sort of behavior, and that every freaking Discipline has at least one "one die per pp" smite type power, and you get something that can nuke short encounter days into the freaking ground.

I would personally add "having both Talents and Focuses is unnecessary" and "all those advantage-on-X Focuses are dull and probably to strong" to the list of flaws, though that's a lot more subjective.

But hey, if you want a fixed and upgraded version, I've got you covered (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7).

The Mystic gets chopped up into three classes (Psion, Psychic Warrior, The Avatar Wu Jen), with some Disciplines further restricted to subclass, addressing the "too many options" issue.
Warlock style "High Psionics" added, addressing the "nothing after 10th level" issue.
Psi Limit extended to an entire round, addressing the nova issue.
Disciplines re-balanced and standardized. (No more repetitive smites and questions of "why does this Discipline have twice as many powers as that one?")
Focuses overhauled to be unique and interesting.
Psychic Talent dice from the most recent psionics UA folded into the base class, offering a more unique and interesting version of Talents.

[Appleheart]

But hey, if you want a fixed and upgraded version, I've got you covered (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7).

The Mystic gets chopped up into three classes (Psion, Psychic Warrior, The Avatar Wu Jen), with some Disciplines further restricted to subclass, addressing the "too many options" issue.
Warlock style "High Psionics" added, addressing the "nothing after 10th level" issue.
Psi Limit extended to an entire round, addressing the nova issue.
Disciplines re-balanced and standardized. (No more repetitive smites and questions of "why does this Discipline have twice as many powers as that one?")
Focuses overhauled to be unique and interesting.
Psychic Talent dice from the most recent psionics UA folded into the base class, offering a more unique and interesting version of Talents.


I just had a quick skim of this last night, and I really like what you've done with it.

Breaking it down and spread it out this way fixes many of the core issues with the class. I am also a big fan of the Psi Dice, so adding that to the class is really cool.

Aside from some places where its still clearly WIP, and some messy formatting (thanks homebrewery...) I think its an excellent take on the Mystic.

[Drascin]

But hey, if you want a fixed and upgraded version, I've got you covered (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7).

The Mystic gets chopped up into three classes (Psion, Psychic Warrior, The Avatar Wu Jen), with some Disciplines further restricted to subclass, addressing the "too many options" issue.
Warlock style "High Psionics" added, addressing the "nothing after 10th level" issue.
Psi Limit extended to an entire round, addressing the nova issue.
Disciplines re-balanced and standardized. (No more repetitive smites and questions of "why does this Discipline have twice as many powers as that one?")
Focuses overhauled to be unique and interesting.
Psychic Talent dice from the most recent psionics UA folded into the base class, offering a more unique and interesting version of Talents.


The bolded bit is the only one I'm a bit eh about, in terms of design goals.

I feel like letting disciplines have variable power amounts is actually good. It lets you add more niche things that nobody in their right mind would pick individually, but which are neat. Because plain fact is not every effect is actually worth the same opportunity cost (which is why the spell lists of Sorcerers tend to be painfully homogeneous), so letting any disciplines with more niche effects have more of them would generally be a good idea, I find.

Rest of the stuff looks good, and when I have a moment I'll definitely give your version a look over.

[carnomancy]

To me the biggest thing wrong with the Mystic was the time they choose to abandon it. Not only had they added 4 new order sub classes to the mix, but they also expanded the existing immortal and awakened orders and bumped everything to a full 20 level class. That's a lot to play test at once.

To be fair, they got cold feet on the system they cooked up to replace it too. Kinda annoying. They haven't really been taking advantage of the depth of history of DnD psionics. There most recent offerings felt really shallow, but that's to be expected when you choose the damned Soulknife to be one of your headliners.

[moonfly7]

What was wrong with the Mystic? I was looking at it the other day and it seemed like a fairly neat combination of the 4E and 3.5 Psion systems.

Personally it felt like it wanted too much. It wanted to be a full caster, but also have decent combat skills, and also have a d8 hit die, and also have constant buffs that could he way more powerful than any other comparable stuff like invocations, and also have spells that weren't counterspellable or stopped by an anti magic field(at least how my DM ran it), and also just not die ever. Seriously. The capstone was ridiculous, and long death was broken, and so much was just so powerful on that thing. It could be a skirmisher, a caster, a utility, a tank if done right, and all at the same time.
I had several really bad experiences with that class. Basically it was doing everything at once, and often times better than the core classes.

[TIPOT]

Just generally as well it was 30 pages long. That's a lot of buy in vs other classes which are like 4 pages max. Most people on a forum like this are probably fine with that, but most players would consider that a bit too long to bother.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aside from some places where its still clearly WIP, and some messy formatting (thanks homebrewery...) I think its an excellent take on the Mystic.

Rest of the stuff looks good, and when I have a moment I'll definitely give your version a look over.
Thanks! :smallredface: If you felt like pointing out some of the messy bits, I'd appreciate it.


Just generally as well it was 30 pages long. That's a lot of buy in vs other classes which are like 4 pages max. Most people on a forum like this are probably fine with that, but most players would consider that a bit too long to bother.
To be fair, two-thirds of that was spell-equivalents, and the rest on par with other base classes with numerous subclasses. By those standards I could say that the Wizard is a hundred pages long.

[Drascin]

Just generally as well it was 30 pages long. That's a lot of buy in vs other classes which are like 4 pages max. Most people on a forum like this are probably fine with that, but most players would consider that a bit too long to bother.

I mean, it is less flipping around pages than you have to do to make a Sorcerer, honestly, and more centralized.