Kineticist Problems - did I find them all?

[Psyren]

My GM is a fan of the 3.5 Warlock, and wanted one of us to play a Kineticist. However, he caught wind of the fact that the class is not viewed very favorably and asked me to investigate.

I've gone over the class as well as various threads/handbooks on it, and I think I've identified the major pain points; I also have some ideas to fix it (which I may eventually compile into a post on the Homebrew board) but first I wanted to check my work with any members of the community willing to assist. Are there any other weaknesses of the Kineticist that I missed?

TL;DR up here, detail below:

1) Weak core math
2) Poor support
3) Burn being both good and bad
4) Burn reduction abilities not particularly helpful

EDIT with more, thanks to the community:

5) Primary attack has abysmal base range
6) Stuck with 1-2 elements for most of the game
7) Talents are too weak for when you acquire them, especially for their cost
8) Overly complicated to parse / barrier to entry

Weak core math: ¾ BAB only really works when you have a decent number of built-in bonuses to hit. The kineticist’s bonuses, rather than being passive extras, come from an ability (Elemental Overflow) that scales slowly and has heavy drawbacks compared to similar classes. Worse, a kineticist generally only attacks once per round, so every missed shot feels particularly bad. And finally, even when you don’t miss outright, layers of defenses apply to each blast - for physical blasts, full AC and DR, while energy blasts hit touch but have to deal with ER and SR, and both have to worry about short range and cover/concealment/etc.

Weak support: What makes the weak math even worse is that your primary (and in some games, only) way to compensate for it is by taking Burn, in order to power up your aforementioned Elemental Overflow ability. There are no other class buffs, few to no items, few party buffs and few feats that can help you land your blasts, especially the physical ones that need it the most. And speaking of Burn...

Burn inconsistencies: Burn is the problem that is intertwined with and compounded by all the others. As other handbook authors have mentioned, Burn feels like it was designed by two people who couldn’t agree on a cohesive design goal.

On the one hand, you want to avoid Burn as much as possible because it puts you in physical danger; incurring Burn leads to you carrying around a lot of nonlethal damage that can’t be removed without stopping to rest/sleep, reducing the HP you actually have available to protect you in a fight. Think of each point of Burn you take as roughly the equivalent of losing two points of Con and you get a general idea for how dangerous it is - putting you only a few solid hits away from getting knocked out of a fight, potentially even before classes with less HP than you have.. But even if you can safely manage your Burn soft cap of staying awake and alive, you also have a hard cap of Burn you can incur each day, equal to 3+Con mod - once you reach this cap you can’t take on more Burn even if you want to, which effectively locks you out of your more powerful abilities (read: nearly anything that isn’t a simple blast) for the rest of that adventuring day.

All of that wouldn’t be so bad, except for the other problem - far from avoiding it, you actually want to incur Burn (or at least a decent chunk of it) as early as possible each day thanks to Elemental Overflow. Without this ability, the kineticist’s combat math doesn’t work as mentioned above, especially if you’re trying to use physical blasts (which target regular AC). And if you don’t build up this Burn as early as possible, you’re likely to waste your actions during a fight when your blasts repeatedly miss their targets. Because of this conflict, you end up in a weird position where you want to get enough burn early on each day to max out your Overflow so that you’re not wasting your actions in a fight missing enemies (or failing to kill them quickly enough) - and then trying to avoiding Burning after that except when absolutely necessary so you have as much as possible for emergencies and/or utility, as well as keeping yourself awake and alive. It’s all quite clunky and counterintuitive. And even that’s not all.

Oddly designed Burn reduction: Adding to the above confusion around whether Burn is supposed to be good or bad, Kineticist comes equipped with a number of abilities to help you avoid taking Burn during an adventuring day, most of which come with a caveat. Infusion Specialization is the best of these, but only helps your blasts and takes quite a while to build up. Gather Power might as well be just a move action. And the less said about Internal Buffer, the better - what kind of ability works best every other day?

Community additions TBD

Any that I missed?

[Alexvrahr]

Everything about the kineticist is a bit complicated, which I'd call both a 5th problem and a reason to waffle on some of your points. For many (not all) types of kineticist a reasonable way to get your burn in early is that their defensive talents benefit from extra burn. If you're into aether or earth or maybe some of the others then pump up your defensive talent with burn when you start the day to the point where elemental overflow is happiest and you're set.

Base range of the kinetic blast is 30'. But extended range is an easy infusion which gives you 120' which is usually enough. Air can get a wild talent to double either/both ranges. Some wild talents have a solid combat use and a decent range. Range isn't a big problem for them.

Unlike warlocks, kineticists have no special ability with UMD and no reason to increase Cha or Int to use it. This is a difference and maybe another problem.

[Psyren]

Base range of the kinetic blast is 30'. But extended range is an easy infusion which gives you 120' which is usually enough. Air can get a wild talent to double either/both ranges. Some wild talents have a solid combat use and a decent range. Range isn't a big problem for them.

This is a good one that I forgot to mention. Warlocks get a base range of 60', while the Kinny only gets 30' for some reason. It's unclear why this was considered a good idea, especially for a class that has to punch itself in the face to do much beyond simple blasts - being within a single move of most of their targets feels terrible. I think an infusion to extend it to 120' is fine, but there's no reason it couldn't have been a base of 60'.



Unlike warlocks, kineticists have no special ability with UMD and no reason to increase Cha or Int to use it. This is a difference and maybe another problem.

This one I won't hold against them - it's certainly true that they're not the best class to attempt UMD-mancy with, but I feel that if their other problems were solved you'd have too many fun things to do to care that much about faking being a caster. A cohesive approach to Burn would leave them with more of it available to do out-of-combat stuff too.

[Kurald Galain]

Two big ones to consider,

(5) You are largely restricted to one element; so if you see two cool talents in the list and want both on one character, there's a good chance that you can't. Arguably, four or five of the printed seven elements are outright traps. The second element comes online pretty late (considering most campaigns end level 10-ish), and comes with a hefty level reduction. For that matter, Extra Evocation is a good feat, but its kinny equivalent also comes with a hefty level reduction.

(6) Many talents are weakened versions of spells, and/or come available much later. For instance, several talents that you get at level 8 are the equivalent of spells one could get at level 4 (e.g. Spray = Snowball Swarm, Toxic Infusion = Cloud of Seasickness, Shape Wood = Woodshape). At level 8 we also get Singularity, which deals approximately seven damage, save for half.

So yeah, loosen up the restrictions, by a lot. That the class largely doesn't benefit from common party buffs is particularly aggravating.

[Psyren]

Two big ones to consider,

(5) You are largely restricted to one element; so if you see two cool talents in the list and want both on one character, there's a good chance that you can't. Arguably, four or five of the printed seven elements are outright traps. The second element comes online pretty late (considering most campaigns end level 10-ish), and comes with a hefty level reduction. For that matter, Extra Evocation is a good feat, but its kinny equivalent also comes with a hefty level reduction.

Yeah, the element restriction is huge. That reminds me of a write-up I was planning, comparing an energy-blast using Kineticist to an Alchemist, or possibly a physical-blast user to a Sound Striker.

I wonder if it would be bad if you could get all the simple blasts for your element, or at the very least be able to pick up another with a feat without having to wait to expand your element. This would make elements like Air and Water (for example) much more attractive since you could pick up both their physical and energy blasts before 7th - and when that level rolls around, have more than one composite blast to choose from.


(6) Many talents are weakened versions of spells, and/or come available much later. For instance, several talents that you get at level 8 are the equivalent of spells one could get at level 4 (e.g. Spray = Snowball Swarm, Toxic Infusion = Cloud of Seasickness, Shape Wood = Woodshape). At level 8 we also get Singularity, which deals approximately seven damage, save for half.

I'd love to buff several of the talents by making them available earlier but I also want to be careful - it's possible that the other buffs giving them a lot more Burn to play with could have unintended consequences here. Not likely from what I've seen so far but I'd want to be thoughtful.

This is all excellent feedback.


So yeah, loosen up the restrictions, by a lot. That the class largely doesn't benefit from common party buffs is particularly aggravating.

Yeah, that "for the purpose of feats" line (and nothing else) is beyond aggravating. I'm really sad this class got released in the state it was in.

[Khosan]

I'd add that it's just overly complicated. Not a problem for everyone, but it's definitely a problem. I've never played a Kineticist purely because I'd have to read and understand the class and there's so many moving parts interconnected with and dependent on others, and I just don't have the patience or attention span for it.

Just to make a level 1 Kineticists, I would end up going through three (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/kineticist-elements/) massive (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/utility-wild-talents/) lists (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/infusion-wild-talents/) of options just to pick my element, my utility wild talent and my infusion. And each of those decisions impacts the other decisions and also any future decisions I have to make. It hits me right in the executive dysfunction.

[Aldrakan]

I'd add that it's just overly complicated. Not a problem for everyone, but it's definitely a problem. I've never played a Kineticist purely because I'd have to read and understand the class and there's so many moving parts interconnected with and dependent on others, and I just don't have the patience or attention span for it.


I second this and while it may not be the biggest problem with the kineticist, I think it is the biggest obstacle to fixing the kineticist. Easier access to elements, faster talent gain, numerical improvements, support items and feats, these can make the class stronger but doesn't change (in fact makes worse probably) that the class is a headache to understand because talents are this interwoven mess where every element can do just enough of the things the others can do that there's no sensible way to lay it out.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Khosan
I'd add that it's just overly complicated. Not a problem for everyone, but it's definitely a problem. I've never played a Kineticist purely because I'd have to read and understand the class and there's so many moving parts interconnected with and dependent on others, and I just don't have the patience or attention span for it.

This in spades. A player of mine was interested in running a kineticist, but she gave up in frustration because it was so difficult to understand. I had the same issue when I tried to work through it. The fact that it has so many widely discussed design issues--or at least complex choices--is a major disincentive to spend additional time on it.

[Psyren]

Agreed that the barrier to entry is abysmal. I could split that into two issues really - just the general presentation of the class (massive amounts of text to slog through to find important information, like how your primary attack scales - most other classes put this important info in the class table) - as well as the fact that you have to cross-reference element, utility talents, infusions and defenses in order to even make a choice of your element, which is compounded by the fact that you're stuck with that first element for the vast majority of your career.

I've updated the OP with all your feedback - much thanks again, and please chime in with any more.


This in spades. A player of mine was interested in running a kineticist, but she gave up in frustration because it was so difficult to understand. I had the same issue when I tried to work through it. The fact that it has so many widely discussed design issues--or at least complex choices--is a major disincentive to spend additional time on it.

Part of me does want to give up on it, but the concept is so cool. An elemental, con-based warlock? Those three words are all the pitch I would have ever needed to give the class a try. But egad, that execution.

Is there a decent homebrew fix out there for the kinny? Without using Spheres I mean. (Nothing against spheres, but I think my chances of getting a single class fix approved in most campaigns are better odds than getting a whole new subsystem approved, no matter how well it works.) If there isn't, now that i understand it, I think I can come up with a version that is much more playable and a lot easier to read.

[Aotrs Commander]

I definitely agree on the compelxity.

When I was doing all that 3.Aotrs stuff, I looked at the kinetist several times and just always went "too much like hard work." And left it. Hell, even in KINGMAKER (the CRPG), I basically followed to the letter suggested builds for the NPCs, on the basis (which I didn';t do for any other characters), simply because of it. It's not a very intutitve class, and if even an inveterate rulesmith like me is going "that's a bit muddied," then you're fracked it up all proper-like.

You're right, the concept of "element-based warlock" is a good one, but it's so poorly implemented.

If I was to do anything with it, I'd have more-or-less rebuilt it entirely. I'd likely have kept the talents and such, but significantly altered the chassis around them. (There might be an arguement it's almost better as an extensive archetype of Warlock...)



I think Burn, as a concept, fundementally ought to just go. I think it is, frankly, bad flavour-made-mechanics (having Raistlin nearly collapse after he used all his daily spells might ave made for good story-telling (maybe?) but I sure as hell wouldn't want every spellcaster to have that) and worse purely mechanically, for the reason you state.

No, be better to just set a picked limit to what you can augment your blasts with (like the Warlock) and modify stuff appropriately - started for ten, just at level you have that burn reduction, you can add one extra of the doofers or something. Maybe start with the equivilent of one burn's worth to start with?

(Hell, the Warlock itself needed a bit of an upgrade; 3.Aotrs gave it 13 invocations, plus another 7 blast shape/eldtritch essence-only ones, and said as long as you didn't apply a blast shape, you could use your iteratives, and if you did, past a point, blast shapes would be automatically Empowered.)

I don't think the kineticist's damage as is is particularly a problem that needed Burn to compensate for. They seemed like the tried to re-invent the wheel, rather than adapt and improve on the idea of the warlock, and ended up making it octagonal. Sure, it's better than square and it does make it easier to move the load, but it still doens't work very well. It's a class fundementally designed around Shooting Elemental Lasers. It ought to be good at Shooting Elemental Lasers. I ought to be, at the very least, on the upper levels of DPS (and probably still can't achieve output levels an optimised TWF DPS Rogue could do, even, if range is disregarded). Hell, the fact that both it and the Warlock can be out-shot by any half-competent longbow specialist is a bit embarrasing. The Warlock's ability to fly (possible invisible) with unlimited ammo, ossensibly, is what trivialises some encounters, not the damage output. And I don't the the kineticist can even do that.



(Needless to say, would be interested in seeing your "fix" as/when/if you do it.)

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, the element restriction is huge. That reminds me of a write-up I was planning, comparing an energy-blast using Kineticist to an Alchemist, or possibly a physical-blast user to a Sound Striker.

Maybe beating a dead horse here, but this really ties in with the difficulty that people mention.

I’ve made several mid level kineticists for cons and games. And without exception I spend an hour and a half fighting the class complexity and the elements and come out with something playable. And then I think “how would I make this as an Alchemist?” and 15 minutes later I have a better character. It’s not that they are undergunned (they are) or complex (they are). It’s that there are better written classes that do their job better.

And then there comes the advice “use this 3rd party fix”. Which probably works fine. But if I’m in a place where I can/want to argue for 3rd party rules, I’m not going to bust my behind for kineticist. I’ll use Vizier or Spheres of Power. Which are much easier to build and play.

I think you are touching on the correct solution, Psyren. It would be easier to make a water bender archetype for alchemist, with a new spell list and replacing bombs with blasts, than to fix kineticist to be that good. Or an elemental bard like sound striker. Or an alternate magus. Or a forward ported Warlock with some elemental theming. I’m not saying you can’t do it. You have good system mastery. But why start with that mess when you could start with something workable, clean, and balanced?

[Bucky]

Burn is a type of nonlethal damage. Kinetic blasts are spell-like abilities. Burn explicitly happens while casting the blast. If the user of a spell-like ability takes nonlethal damage while casting, they must make a concentration check or fumble the ability, wasting their action.

By RAW, a Kineticist who accepts burn to use one of her abilities must make a difficult concentration check (DC = 11 + level x burn taken), or fumble the ability and keep the burn.

This interaction is a major flaw with the class; however, I do not know of a single table that actually enforces it.

[Railak]

I really really want to love this class, because it's a very cool concept. But yeah the burn is rediculous. I've played a couple of them, and found that the archetype psychokinetic is probably the best route to avoid most issues with burn. It burns your mind and will save instead of your body. While it has its own problems, it's still better.

The other major issue you didn't state is you flat out can't use any burn ability in the standard version if you are immune to non lethal damage. So you can't even use this with an undead character/NPC/bad guy.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think you are touching on the correct solution, Psyren. It would be easier to make a water bender archetype for alchemist, with a new spell list and replacing bombs with blasts, than to fix kineticist to be that good. Or an elemental bard like sound striker. Or an alternate magus. Or a forward ported Warlock with some elemental theming. I’m not saying you can’t do it. You have good system mastery. But why start with that mess when you could start with something workable, clean, and balanced?

I think mining the kinetecist talents for ideas is likely worth doing, if only to save coming up with them from the whole cloth, but yes, fundementally, I concur that the class chassis is itself too deeply flawed.

[Gnaeus]

I think mining the kinetecist talents for ideas is likely worth doing, if only to save coming up with them from the whole cloth, but yes, fundementally, I concur that the class chassis is itself too deeply flawed.

Sure. They could be discoveries or magus arcana. Ideally leveling naturally (like, you get the lame hover power at level X, then the flight power with the hover prereq at level Y.)

[stack]

I recall hacking together a homebrew PF warlock using alchemist bomb discoveries to modify the eldritch blast and granting witch hexes for non-blast invocations. It was a fair start on the concept. I know others have since given the concept more thorough treatments. These days, I would just use spheres, but that isn't an option for everyone. Neither is hacking together a custom class.

As for fixing the kinny, people talk about the Legendary fixes for it, but I have never used any of that material, so can't speak to it.

[Kurald Galain]

Is there a decent homebrew fix out there for the kinny? Without using Spheres I mean.
Well, the straightforward fix is to play a draconic bloodline sorcerer, and start spamming (intensified) Snowball or Scorching Ray or even Magic Missile. It's easy to play, versatile to build, and easy to add utility to. And it outdamages the kinny, too.

Sure, it's not quite at-will, but if you have 10-12 rounds of combat per day, then there is no practical difference between "12/day" and "at-will". Except the flavor of using minor magic whenever you want, but you've got cantrips for that.

It takes only a 4th-level sorcerer cast the 1st level spell of your choice every single round during the day.

[Gnaeus]

Well, the straightforward fix is to play a draconic bloodline sorcerer, and start spamming (intensified) Snowball or Scorching Ray or even Magic Missile. It's easy to play, versatile to build, and easy to add utility to. And it outdamages the kinny, too.

Sure, it's not quite at-will, but if you have 10-12 rounds of combat per day, then there is no practical difference between "12/day" and "at-will". Except the flavor of using minor magic whenever you want, but you've got cantrips for that.

It takes only a 4th-level sorcerer cast the 1st level spell of your choice every single round during the day.

If you rewrote the spell list to limit it to one or 2 elements of spells, and some taken from element powers of kineticist, it would probably be T3.

[Aotrs Commander]

Dammit Psyren, you've got me thinking a bit. Good job I decided with all the crap (and the fear the computermight just switch off at any moment) I decided to take this week as Holiday, since I won't be getting my normal one...)


Bleakbane's Quick and Dirty (By Bleakbane Standards) Possible Kinetict Fix.

Elemental Focus: Ditch entirely. Just add the appropriate simple blast type as a pre-req to any elemental utlities, but in theory, let the player decide if they want to play Katara or Korra.

Burn: Ditch entirely. Replace talent burn costs with, I dunno, "Infusion points." Rather than be "Thing that Hurts you unless you Migitate it" it becomes "thing you mix-and-match Stuff With" more like the Warlock's blast shape/eldtritch essenses.

Wild Talents: Delete "utility talent" and "infusion" from the "Special" and add a "Wild Talent", column and just give a straight numerical progression of how many wild talents you get at every levels, just like EVERY OTHER CLASS that has discrete abilites (spells/powers/invocations/manouvers) with a "max level." (That's part of the complexity problem.) At BARE minimum, this ought to be changed, even if you did literally nothing else to the class; not being able to tell at a glance is part of what makes this class muddy in a way that something with stuff like Rogue Talents doesn't, because of all the xtra crap floating around.

Simple and Composite Blasts just become wild talents; "simple blast," "composite blast," "infusion" and "defence talent" et all just become labels (in the same way you have "Sneak Attack Rogue Talents" and "other Rogue Talents." You can pick any wild talent from any category provided you meet the pre-reqs.

Start out with at least two wild talents (so you have to have at least one simple blast, because you've made all the talents have one as a pre-req). Maybe 3-4.

Allow one infusion point to be applied per blast at level 1, and increase by +1 wherever you get Infusion Specialisation.

Kinetic Blasts: Allow simple blast iteratives on full attack (or rapid shot etc), unless it has an area, in which case maybe apply automatic Empower at a certain level instead.

Composite blast could be level-gated to 7th level (when Expanded Element would come), dropped to the same damage as regular blasts (but with iteratives as before, so you're on slightly-better-than-warlock damage), or make composite blasts a Standard action, rather than an Attack/Full Attack (making them closer to spell damage numbers than SA weapon attack numbers) and/or require 2 infusion points to use (which would gate them to 5th level tacitly anyway.

Gather power: Ditch as unecessary or replace with adding a boost (maybe the action allows you to add additional infusion points), possibly even make this a wild talent and add one as required.

Elemental Defence: Ditch, replaced with a wild talent and a level requirement is you really think they'd be broken if someone wanted to pick them at level 1.

Elemental Overflow: Ditch. Instead, just give a straight +1/3 levels bonus to blast attack rolls/+2/3levles to damage rolls.

Expand Element: Ditch, unecessary, but add some addition wild talents appropriate to compensate for what would previously have been the free composite blasts.

Internal Buffer: Delete entirely or make into a wild talent with appropriate changes (including name) so that you essentially store an extra point (et al) of infusion, almost like a form of spell-storing.

Metakinesis/Metakinetic Master: Replace burn cost with infusion point cost (Empower may automatically in in place with area blasts already, though).

Supercharge: Replace burn reduction with infusion point reduction; make this a wild talent if Gather Power was, and have that as a pre-req, maybe.

Compoite Specialiation: Deleted as unecassary, unless you made composite blasts require infusion points.

Omnikinesis: Would require a bit of retinkering, depending on exactly what you did, but fundementally the ability to use talent you don't know would just change from burn to infusion point and maybe the second part two.



Gonna stop there, as if I think about it more than that, I'll actually be DOING it, and at that point, it's more crap to add to 3.Aotrs already bloated 1000+ pages...!

[Psyren]

I might catch some flack for this one but here goes:

I actually like Burn (as a concept, not the execution.) Specifically, I like (a) "Here's some stuff you can do at-will, and here's a resource that lets you do more powerful versions of that stuff that you need to rest overnight to recover" as well as (b) "that resource is your hit point total, in the form of nonlethal damage that you can't get rid of except by sleeping overnight, so you don't have to track anything else."

I consider nonlethal damage being the limiter on a kineticist spamming their most powerful stuff all the time to be a good idea. A Con-based class with built-in magical defenses that can stay at range could end up pretty tough for a GM to take down otherwise, potentially provoking an arms-race as the GM throws bigger and bigger damage numbers at the party in response. And I wouldn't want to change the kineticist from being Con-based (the standard kinny anyway) because it's a slam dunk from both a fluff and crunch perspective. "I handle more powerful elemental magic by enduring more of it" makes sense fluff-wise, and a "caster" that is based on physical stats is something folks have wanted almost since PF debuted.

Where Paizo screwed up is that Burn should be consistently something you want to avoid - both because it can hinder your short-term goals (knocking yourself out during a key fight) and your long-term ones (you want to make sure to keep some burn capacity in reserve in case there's a tough fight around the corner.) It's like they wanted Burn to be a risk-reward thing, forgetting that it already is that, because you need to incur it for just about everything that isn't a simple blast, especially early on in your career. Change the need to obtain Burn to attain basic competence and I think people would hate the mechanic a lot less than they currently do.


EDIT: With the above in mind, Aotrs, I think I'll take a swing at the class similar to the approach you just laid out - one that keeps Burn but makes it a lot more reasonable as a cost for doing awesome things. (And of course, part of making those awesome things awesome is changing the level at which you get them/getting more of them, but that's a bigger endeavor).

[Aotrs Commander]

I consider nonlethal damage being the limiter on a kineticist spamming their most powerful stuff all the time to be a good idea. A Con-based class with built-in magical defenses that can stay at range could end up pretty tough for a GM to take down otherwise,

Far less so than an invisible flying warlock (or indeed, an invisble, flying anything). Unless Kineticist also get basically permenant flight, they're no worse than archers, just using a different stat.

On a find check - Air kinetcists apparently can do, so that right there make them far more dangerous than merely higher spike damage, because it means thay they can safely deal with non-ranged capable enemies at leisure (given their unlimited "ammunition" and flight time).

They do not appeat be able to go invisible, however.





EDIT: With the above in mind, Aotrs, I think I'll take a swing at the class similar to the approach you just laid out - one that keeps Burn but makes it a lot more reasonable as a cost for doing awesome things. (And of course, part of making those awesome things awesome is changing the level at which you get them/getting more of them, but that's a bigger endeavor).

You could simply add Burn as an additional option (talent, maybe) on top of that "infusion point" system I suggested, but specifically only for exceeding those limitations by taking hit point damage. (So basically, "you can take 1 damage/class level as Burn to spend an addition infusion point.") Fundementally working the same way, but relensed as "thing you can do in a pinch" instead of "think you have work around." Best of both, which was my attitude to combing 3.5 and PF1 (if in doubt, allow whatever it is to do the version of either edition...!)

[Bucky]

Kinetic Blasts: Allow simple blast iteratives on full attack (or rapid shot etc), unless it has an area, in which case maybe apply automatic Empower at a certain level instead.

Composite blast could be level-gated to 7th level (when Expanded Element would come), dropped to the same damage as regular blasts (but with iteratives as before, so you're on slightly-better-than-warlock damage), or make composite blasts a Standard action, rather than an Attack/Full Attack (making them closer to spell damage numbers than SA weapon attack numbers) and/or require 2 infusion points to use (which would gate them to 5th level tacitly anyway.

Gather power: Ditch as unecessary or replace with adding a boost (maybe the action allows you to add additional infusion points), possibly even make this a wild talent and add one as required.

You can kill two birds with one stone by making Gather Power your full attack replacement. Gather Power becomes a move action that gives you 1/2/3 orbiting simple blasts. These fire off during your next compatible Kinetic Blast, with -5 to hit, and dissipate after one round. They don't benefit from infusions, except that they can follow the main blast to targets that would otherwise be under total cover or out of range.




They do not appeat be able to go invisible, however.


That's the Aether kineticist's schtick.

[Psyren]

Far less so than an invisible flying warlock (or indeed, an invisble, flying anything). Unless Kineticist also get basically permenant flight, they're no worse than archers, just using a different stat.

Well, they're considerably worse than archers mathematically - 3/4 BAB with few to no bonuses, no items to boost them, few feats, few party buffs can assist them etc. Your best hope is touch attacks, but those start at a disadvantage even before you get to the myriad defenses your targets get to apply.

Fix that math though, and I think there's room to add varied enough kineticist defenses that invisibility and flight shouldn't be necessary. (Certainly some kineticists should be able to do those two, but not all.)



You could simply add Burn as an additional option (talent, maybe) on top of that "infusion point" system I suggested, but specifically only for exceeding those limitations by taking hit point damage. (So basically, "you can take 1 damage/class level as Burn to spend an addition infusion point.") Fundementally working the same way, but relensed as "thing you can do in a pinch" instead of "think you have work around." Best of both, which was my attitude to combing 3.5 and PF1 (if in doubt, allow whatever it is to do the version of either edition...!)

My issue with this is that now you're tracking two resources (burn and infusion points) when one would be simpler.


You can kill two birds with one stone by making Gather Power your full attack replacement. Gather Power becomes a move action that gives you 1/2/3 orbiting simple blasts. These fire off during your next compatible Kinetic Blast, with -5 to hit, and dissipate after one round. They don't benefit from infusions, except that they can follow the main blast to targets that would otherwise be under total cover or out of range.

I would make multiple blasts be an infusion or metakinetic option rather than standalone - which in fact it is! It's just hamstrung by all the clunky math surrounding it.

[Aotrs Commander]

My issue with this is that now you're tracking two resources (burn and infusion points) when one would be simpler.

Just cut out the terminology completely then; "you can take 1 point of nonlethal damage per class level to gain 1 [additional] infusion point [insert limitation on how many infusion points (and thus hit point damage) you can take based on level]."

[Krazzman]

I don't think you missed any of the problems that would annoy me. Similar to your DM I also really liked my Warlocks in 3.5. I think mixing Warlock, Dragonfire Adept and Kineticist into a use-able working class is a possible way to fix it.

Personally I really dislike the Burn mechanic. Both for RP purposes as well as the mechanic itself.

Can you imagine how some Kineticist would start their days? "Ah a fresh new morning... lemme sear my flesh real quick, then I am ready for breakfast."

[Kurald Galain]

FWIW I really like the concept of the Gather Power mechanic, i.e. that you take longer to cast something in order to get a bigger effect. The current implementation is kind of meh though.

(of course, the sorc already does that with any metamagic feat)

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If Spheres is off the table, the Legendary Kineticist attempts to fix most of the problems

[Psyren]

FWIW I really like the concept of the Gather Power mechanic, i.e. that you take longer to cast something in order to get a bigger effect. The current implementation is kind of meh though.

Agreed. It should really start at 2/4 for move/full-round, and then become swift/move/full-round with higher values as the big "11th level mid-capstone." (11th is a power spike moment for lots of classes - Witches get their first major hex, rogues get their first advanced talent, Gunslingers can reload fast enough to full-attack etc.)


Just cut out the terminology completely then; "you can take 1 point of nonlethal damage per class level to gain 1 [additional] infusion point [insert limitation on how many infusion points (and thus hit point damage) you can take based on level]."

I view "Burn" like a keyword in Magic or Hearthstone - you define it one place, then you only have to say the name elsewhere. I prefer it to infusion points because that quickly signals that the mechanic doesn't just apply to infusions, but also to metakinesis, composite blasts, omnikinesis, gather power, internal buffer and other stuff. And you do need to define it at least once, because you need the lines that say "here is how the nonlethal you take from Burn differs regular nonlethal that you can't simply pop a Lesser Restoration to get rid of, and also here's how much nonlethal damage you take every time you buy it." Lastly, tying this special nonlethal to a single resource (burn) for tracking makes sheet auditing easy - at any given moment the GM can pick up the player's sheet, see how much nonlethal they have, and quickly determine how much came from burn and how much came from other sources.



Can you imagine how some Kineticist would start their days? "Ah a fresh new morning... lemme sear my flesh real quick, then I am ready for breakfast."

The "wake and bake" approach to frontloading burn as soon as possible is less a function of the burn mechanic itself, and more the odd design of Elemental Overflow specifically. IMO, once you fix Elemental Overflow and the underlying math of the Kineticist, then that weird behavior kineticists feel compelled to perform will organically go away.

I agree that "burn" can seem like an odd term for some elements, but i like the term because it encompasses everything you need to know about the mechanic in one word. It's a drawback, it's something you can survive in small quantities, it's not easy to get rid of, and it doesn't overlap with any existing debuffs.

[Psyren]

If Spheres is off the table, the Legendary Kineticist attempts to fix most of the problems

I assume you mean this one? (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/legendary-kineticist) It doesn't go far enough in my view, and simultaneously the change of Burn from being nonlethal damage to a penalty on skill checks is too drastic. Depending on their party, they can simply ignore that penalty most of the time, which makes it not much of a penalty at all; in addition, they still need Elemental Overflow to hit anything, Gather Power is still too weak, the basic blast's range is still too short, they're still stuck with a single element's simple blast too long etc.

[VoltsofEight]

Someone's already said the Legendary Kineticist, but what about the Avowed?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?563703-Forrestfire-Studios-The-Avowed-Promises-of-Power-Updated-Playtest

[Rynjin]

In addition to the raw "power level" concerns laid out in your opening post, a big issue with the Kineticist is its rigidity. It has very tight math; deliberately tied down to mediocrity. There is almost no way to optimize a Kineticist, and likewise basically no way to **** one up. Once you've chosen your element, one Kineticist will look largely identical to another.

Combine this with the fact that there's a clear list of a few "master elements" (air, earth, and MAYBE water in a pinch) that get all the goodies in terms of both utility and good combat Infusions, and you have a class that is dubiously interesting to play, and certainly uninteresting to play more than once.

[Sinner's Garden]

And you do need to define it at least once, because you need the lines that say "here is how the nonlethal you take from Burn differs regular nonlethal that you can't simply pop a Lesser Restoration to get rid of, and also here's how much nonlethal damage you take every time you buy it."

Do you? Why does burn have to be a special type of damage that can't be healed like any other type of damage? While the aesthetic of you pushing past your limits and straining your body to accomplish something great is nice, you should balance it around the ubiquitous nature of healing spells, not try and handwave it away by saying "for no reason, healing doesn't apply to this." Given how deliberately lackluster the kinny is, I do wonder if you even need to balance it, versus simply accepting that a game with lots of free healing access is probably playing at a higher power level anyway and allowing them to benefit from it like everyone else.

[TiaC]

The Kineticists of Porphyra and Legendary Kineticist books both contain a ton of options for kineticists that do a lot to help with the lack of support for kineticists. 1st party is really limited. As an example of how few 1st party options exist, in composite energy blasts there is one that just does damage, one that does damage and doesn't work on undead or constructs, one that only will damage undead, and one that deals damage like a simple blast. It's a thin spread of options, and most kineticists will get none of them, which if they were relying on touch attacks will mean that they won't hit anything with composite blasts

DSP's Avant Guard has an interesting way of dealing with burn. At the start of the day, you can accept burn up to half your level rounded up. This burn determines the strength of the Avant Guard's unique defense talent and blast. For every three points of burn accepted this way, all other burn costs are decreased by one. (except for healing effects). If you were to allow this to apply to a normal defense talent you'd mitigate the worst parts of burn pretty well.

This could be a way to rework elemental overflow. If you replaced the effects of elemental overflow with a mechanic where taking on burn reduced future burn costs, you have a situation where taking burn is always a cost, and it doesn't give bonuses, but you can't get stuck in the situation where you have no health and only basic abilities for the rest of the day. (The class would need a numbers boost, but that part's easy.) It works flavorwise too. Burn is elemental energy overloading your system, but the more energy is flowing through you, the easier it is to use that power.

Another approach I've seen used was to double the effect of burn, but let it be healed normally. The Kineticist could take herself out easily, but it didn't stop her from playing for the rest of the day

The class could really use more talents, and no level penalty for talents from secondary elements and feats. The -6 effective level penalty on top of the usually delayed level that the

[Kurald Galain]

Do you? Why does burn have to be a special type of damage that can't be healed like any other type of damage?

I don't think burn really needs to be damage; in fact it would be clearer and more consistent if it's not. I'd suggest making it a "pool" similar to monk ki, barbarian rage rounds, or swashbuckler panache.

[Rynjin]

I don't think burn really needs to be damage; in fact it would be clearer and more consistent if it's not. I'd suggest making it a "pool" similar to monk ki, barbarian rage rounds, or swashbuckler panache.

A fix my DM went with in a game was having Burn count up to a limit of your Con mod without issue, after which there's a scaling percent chance of backlash and having all the accumulated nonlethal damage hit you at once.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't think burn really needs to be damage; in fact it would be clearer and more consistent if it's not. I'd suggest making it a "pool" similar to monk ki, barbarian rage rounds, or swashbuckler panache.

I know Psyren likes the idea for whatever reason, but I agree with you. Having a class (the only class) whose primary class feature for doing the only thing they can moderately competantly do actively makes them progressively easier to be knocked out is a fracking terrible idea, personally. The only RPG I can think of off the top of my head that used hit points like power points was Star Ocean 3, and you could heal that off. Going up and down like a yo-yo and irritating the rest of the players who have to devote their actions to being your personal healbot makes you an annoying liability, not a useful character class. I honestly think that burn is the kineticist's biggest single problem among its many problems. It is, to my mind, just a straight bad concept and mechanic.

If I was playing a kineticist, I would NEVER use burn except for that which could be migitated. MAYBE towards the end of a boss fight, but NEVER as the standard resource they seem to expect you to to use is as, it's just tantamount of asking to be knocked out and sit around the combat twiddling your thumbs or for the cleric to be having to spend his action to constatnly get you conscious again, ESPECIALLY as it is non-healable damage.

(AND we play with max hit points, where the effect would be most minimal. That said, we ALSO play in an high-expected damage environment. First Sudden-maximised Fireball or whatever that gets dropped on you, and you're going to be out if you've been using any burn.)

At average hit points, max burn (3+Con mod) reduces you to fundementally 1.5 hit point per level, so no more than 30 hits at level 20, for what? Maybe 15 points of non-mitigated burn (assuming 34 end con), which is 2.5 rounds of max burn. Hell, even with max hit points, max burn leaves you with just 5 hits per level.

Pretty sure the kinetecist can't nova hard enough to be worst than a wizard or psion in damage output, so at absolute best that's a laughable amount of rounds, considering that no other class I can think of can nova and fundementally take themselves out of the fight by doing so. Plus, at 20th level, what can you possibly do with a kinetecist that is worth taking 120 points of nonlethal damage per round? (That's have to be what, a composite blast with 12 points of burn or something?) And if there comes a point where you can't do anything for which the burn isn't fully mitigated by your character class abilites - why does it exist as a mechanic in the first place? It is just to screw low-level kinetecists?

No, I just really can't see the point of burn at all as a central mechanic (I can barely see the point of it as something you do maybe once per day in a pinch).

[HeraldOfExius]

I also like the idea of burn as a "sacrifice hit points to go above and beyond" sort of mechanic, but the default kineticist doesn't really represent that well. If kineticists were more capable of doing things without taking burn and had a reliable way to get their bonuses from elemental overflow without sacrificing HP first thing in the morning (Limited rounds per day? Ability that lasts for a few rounds before needing to be reactivated?), then burn could be an interesting "let's get dangerous" ability. Having the option to trade your HP for a power boost would be interesting, but having to make that trade just to keep up with everybody else is a problem.

[DrMartin]

Personally I would have Burn work like committing Effort does in Godbound.

You have a pool of effort, say 3 + your level. Certain abilities require you to commit effort for a certain amount of time. Some require you to commit it for anything between 1 minute and a full day, but have only a short duration. Other require you to keep effort committed, and the ability they grant is active as long as you leave it committed. You can always reclaim committed effort to end an active ability and use it for something else. You cannot reclaim effort committed to "one and done" abilities until the time as passed, but it still counts as committed.

Make it so that as long as you have enough committed effort your elemental overflow activates. And give it cool, thematic powers like dragonblooded auras in exalted, not (or not only, If the class needs those number so that the math work) samey stat bonuses. Your fiery elemental overflow burns. The watery one drowns people. Have them be metal, they are flashy elemental auras, not lightshows.

If you wanna keep the "burn does damage" thing, add a mechanic like overchannel (the psionic feat), when you can get hp damage to increase your caster level.

No reason to have that damage be unrecoverable though, it wasn't the case for Overchannel, can't see why burn should be different.

[Psyren]

I know Psyren likes the idea for whatever reason, but I agree with you.

I provided the "whatever reason":



I consider nonlethal damage being the limiter on a kineticist spamming their most powerful stuff all the time to be a good idea. A Con-based class with built-in magical defenses that can stay at range could end up pretty tough for a GM to take down otherwise, potentially provoking an arms-race as the GM throws bigger and bigger damage numbers at the party in response. And I wouldn't want to change the kineticist from being Con-based (the standard kinny anyway) because it's a slam dunk from both a fluff and crunch perspective. "I handle more powerful elemental magic by enduring more of it" makes sense fluff-wise, and a "caster" that is based on physical stats is something folks have wanted almost since PF debuted.

^ I thought I was pretty clear on my rationale.


I also like the idea of burn as a "sacrifice hit points to go above and beyond" sort of mechanic, but the default kineticist doesn't really represent that well. If kineticists were more capable of doing things without taking burn and had a reliable way to get their bonuses from elemental overflow without sacrificing HP first thing in the morning (Limited rounds per day? Ability that lasts for a few rounds before needing to be reactivated?), then burn could be an interesting "let's get dangerous" ability. Having the option to trade your HP for a power boost would be interesting, but having to make that trade just to keep up with everybody else is a problem.

Yes - this whole post is exactly what I think needs fixing in a nutshell. And I for one would rather fix this (and maybe a handful of other things, like increasing KB base range to 60') and see how it plays, than commit to scrapping Burn entirely.



Make it so that as long as you have enough committed effort your elemental overflow activates. And give it cool, thematic powers like dragonblooded auras in exalted, not (or not only, If the class needs those number so that the math work) samey stat bonuses. Your fiery elemental overflow burns. The watery one drowns people. Have them be metal, they are flashy elemental auras, not lightshows.

This is closer to my vision for Elemental Overflow as well. The class math should be completely divorced from it, but the visual effects as you take on more effort/burn should be there. I also like the idea of your fortification increasing the more of it you take on - you're becoming more of an elemental essentially, and they're immune to precision damage because of their amorphous bodies, so you start to get a little of that. Not only is it flavorful, it also helps save you from damage spikes while you're carrying a decent amount of burn. The first time this saves a player's life by negating a crit or sneak attack, you're guaranteed to get that "yes!" fist-pump moment that makes not just the class but the entire session memorable - great design, win-win.

My only caveat is that I think its effects should be purely defensive. Elemental Overflow should be a safety net for high-burn days and a visual trigger for bystanders (including your party and enemies) - not something you burn yourself for to increase your offensive power.

[Thunder999]

Burn definitely shouldn't be easily healed, because there's not really a cost to it at all then, healing is far too easy in pathfinder. Either keep it as the unhealable nonlethal and make the stuff you do by spending it more powerful, so it's a simple case of trading max HP for power, or just make it a standard pool like most classes, you get 3+con or half your level+con or w/e per day and can spend it as you want.

[Sinner's Garden]

Damage can be a pretty considerable cost; in most campaigns, taking damage recklessly can quickly run you down up to 5kgp and a level. More importantly, while healing is easy, unless you're at a favorable enough position that losing the battle isn't a realistic outcome, then you're trading resources (and actions) in order to break even on the whole "casting from HP" thing, which other classes don't have to worry about because they're casting from a different resource than the one that keeps them in the game.

[N. Jolly]

I assume you mean this one? (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/legendary-kineticist) It doesn't go far enough in my view, and simultaneously the change of Burn from being nonlethal damage to a penalty on skill checks is too drastic. Depending on their party, they can simply ignore that penalty most of the time, which makes it not much of a penalty at all; in addition, they still need Elemental Overflow to hit anything, Gather Power is still too weak, the basic blast's range is still too short, they're still stuck with a single element's simple blast too long etc.

Eh, I think it went far enough myself, but you try redesigning a class while keeping it backwards compatible with your entire library of content ;)

[Rynjin]

Personally I would have Burn work like committing Effort does in Godbound.

Wow! So there are 6 people who've played Godbound, not just 5!

Seriously good game but this is the first time I've heard anyone mention it outside of a group I played with once.

[Psyren]

Damage can be a pretty considerable cost; in most campaigns, taking damage recklessly can quickly run you down up to 5kgp and a level. More importantly, while healing is easy, unless you're at a favorable enough position that losing the battle isn't a realistic outcome, then you're trading resources (and actions) in order to break even on the whole "casting from HP" thing, which other classes don't have to worry about because they're casting from a different resource than the one that keeps them in the game.

While that's true, those other classes aren't Con-based either (on top of being ranged and getting more defenses from their element.) And keep in mind we're talking about a subforum where in-combat healing is most often looked on with disdain anyway.

My proposed fix (which would build on HeraldofExius' quick summary) would, by making Elemental Overflow defensive in nature, offset the additional danger incurred from Burn damage while still being intuitive to grasp.


Eh, I think it went far enough myself, but you try redesigning a class while keeping it backwards compatible with your entire library of content ;)

Oh I'm not trying to impugn your efforts by any means, and certainly any attempt to dig through this mess of a class to fix it is worthy of commendation :smallsmile: but I genuinely don't think a skill/check penalty is a meaningful enough drawback for a combat-oriented class to provoke truly interesting decisions/tradeoffs. And while I completely get the thought behind the "Battle Burn" mechanic, imo it's just one more thing for an already burdened class (and GM) to track. For me, the ways to manage your burn during a fight would primarily come from Gather Power and Infusion Specialization (tactically) and a redesigned Internal Buffer (strategically).

[Kurald Galain]

And keep in mind we're talking about a subforum where in-combat healing is most often looked on with disdain anyway.

The people who disdain in-combat healers are almost universally 3E players, not PF players (specifically because PF's channel energy ability).

[Psyren]

The people who disdain in-combat healers are almost universally 3E players, not PF players (specifically because PF's channel energy ability).

Fair point.

[DrMartin]

Wow! So there are 6 people who've played Godbound, not just 5!

Seriously good game but this is the first time I've heard anyone mention it outside of a group I played with once.



I´ve never actually managed to get a Godbound game going, but I know the system inside out.
The Exaled game that was considering switching to it died before we could implement the switch :(

I am an avid consumer of pretty much everything from that publisher though, the quality is mostly stellar, and the ratio of ready-to-use and actionable content to noise is great.

I´ve run Kingmaker using Red Tide rules as kingdom management system instead of Ultimate Campaign, a very nice experience

[Aniikinis]

It's been mentioned before, but Forrestfire Studios' Avowed would work much better and with almost no real modification required. It's a better, more versatile warlock with a few different archetypes and patron choices of all kinds.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DrMartin
I´ve run Kingmaker using Red Tide rules as kingdom management system instead of Ultimate Campaign....

For those of us not familiar with this system, where can we find the Red Tide rules?

[Psyren]

It's been mentioned before, but Forrestfire Studios' Avowed would work much better and with almost no real modification required. It's a better, more versatile warlock with a few different archetypes and patron choices of all kinds.

I do like the Avowed as a more faithful Warlock conversion, and will try to get my GM to use it. I'm still interested in fixing the Kineticist though because fluffwise, I think there's room for both. (The Avowed is more patron/pact-y in feel, even when that pact is with something like an ideal that has no agenda of its own - whereas the Kineticist feels more like a phenomenon of nature or the inner planes made manifest in a person.) They have mechanical differences too like the Avowed's use of verbal components for its Clauses, and its focus on Charisma.

And there's the simple practical matter of "Here's a fixed version of {1st-party class}" tends to be an easier sell (at least it is for me) than "here's a brand new class to learn." (Especially when that brand new class comes pre-packaged with a whole new subsystem, as the Elementalist does - though the Avowed at least avoids that.)


Burn definitely shouldn't be easily healed, because there's not really a cost to it at all then, healing is far too easy in pathfinder. Either keep it as the unhealable nonlethal and make the stuff you do by spending it more powerful, so it's a simple case of trading max HP for power, or just make it a standard pool like most classes, you get 3+con or half your level+con or w/e per day and can spend it as you want.

I don't mind keeping the hard daily cap on Burn alongside the soft cap of unhealable damage - that future-proofs the design in case bonus or temporary HP become plentiful somehow. I would raise that hard cap to 3+1/2 level+Con burn per day (minimum 1) for some additional scaling however.

As an example - a UMD'd scroll or staff of Greater False Life (especially one that is Maximized or Empowered) can provide 40+ extra hit points that last all day. This is a good enough purchase for kineticists today with a Burn cap, never mind how much better it would become without. And that's only a 4th-level spell (without the metamagic) so it's reasonable to imagine there's design space at the top end for an even more powerful all-day temp HP spell or ability to be developed at some point.

[N. Jolly]

Oh I'm not trying to impugn your efforts by any means, and certainly any attempt to dig through this mess of a class to fix it is worthy of commendation :smallsmile: but I genuinely don't think a skill/check penalty is a meaningful enough drawback for a combat-oriented class to provoke truly interesting decisions/tradeoffs. And while I completely get the thought behind the "Battle Burn" mechanic, imo it's just one more thing for an already burdened class (and GM) to track. For me, the ways to manage your burn during a fight would primarily come from Gather Power and Infusion Specialization (tactically) and a redesigned Internal Buffer (strategically).

I feel ya. Trust me, if I was able to make a full rebuild, it'd have been a lot different. I just like popping my head in whenever kineticist stuff gets discussed. Maybe in corefinder, I'll get to make MY kineticist.

[Manyasone]

I feel ya. Trust me, if I was able to make a full rebuild, it'd have been a lot different. I just like popping my head in whenever kineticist stuff gets discussed. Maybe in corefinder, I'll get to make MY kineticist.

Keep the Porphyra stuff in then, please

[Darg]

The problem with kineticist is that everything feels too slow. I haven't tested this, but to make the progression feel smoother is at first level you get both types of blasts from your primary element (composite is still at level 7), fighter AB for physical blasts, expanded element at level 5/10/15, Infusions have expanded element list once unlocked, and more composite combos.

I also like burn as a concept but is too crippling as it is considering MAD. Play testing halved burn penalties (rounded up) has seen positive results. Have noticed that the effects of talents aren't near strong enough for many of them considering the cost associated with taking burn and the opportunity cost of them being so limited in number and uses.

[DrMartin]

[stuff on elemental overflow]

My only caveat is that I think its effects should be purely defensive. Elemental Overflow should be a safety net for high-burn days and a visual trigger for bystanders (including your party and enemies) - not something you burn yourself for to increase your offensive power.


I get what you mean from a game-stat perspective, but setting people that stands too close to you on fire is a pretty good defensive measure as well :D

And, on a slightly more serious note, auras like this are also something that the player has more control over - fortification is nice and all, but if it works or not is largely out of the player´s hand. Giving Aura-like abilities to Elemental Overflow give the player more active, tactical choices related to their positioning. Say Elemental Overflow´s ability for wood is making the spaces around you difficult terrain, or Air blocks gases, dispels fog and blocks/penalizes ranged attacks. Now the kineticist is a small mobile area of elemental-themed battlefield control, which works independently from its blasting.



For those of us not familiar with this system, where can we find the Red Tide rules?

the rules for domain management are in an expansion to Red Tide called An Echo, Resounding. Is on Drivethrough

[Psyren]

I'm compiling notes based on the great discussion in this thread and I had a question:

Kinetic Blast only counts as a weapon for the purposes of feats, such as Weapon Focus. I feel like there's a weakness I'm missing because of that wording. In what ways can you treat Kinetic Blast as a weapon, and which ways not? Are there common buffs or techniques available to other classes that aren't available to the Kineticist, and if so, which ones? Conductive weapons look like they work with Kinetic Blast - how do they interact, and do they help or hurt the Kineticist?


I get what you mean from a game-stat perspective, but setting people that stands too close to you on fire is a pretty good defensive measure as well :D

And, on a slightly more serious note, auras like this are also something that the player has more control over - fortification is nice and all, but if it works or not is largely out of the player´s hand. Giving Aura-like abilities to Elemental Overflow give the player more active, tactical choices related to their positioning. Say Elemental Overflow´s ability for wood is making the spaces around you difficult terrain, or Air blocks gases, dispels fog and blocks/penalizes ranged attacks. Now the kineticist is a small mobile area of elemental-themed battlefield control, which works independently from its blasting.

I like these ideas, but not sure if they should be baseline, or talents/feats. Certainly creating a bunch of difficult terrain around you anytime you pass a certain burn threshold is not something your party is going to be too happy with you for doing. Similarly, radiating fire damage passively could have negative consequences in some locations.

[Kurald Galain]

Are there common buffs or techniques available to other classes that aren't available to the Kineticist,

Many common buffs, such as bard song and the Prayer spell, explicitly add to weapon damage rollls, so not to kinblasts.

[Alexvrahr]

Conductive weapons work with a kinetic blast and can make bows a competitive option for the kineticist. Worked example here (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42owi?I-m-new-to-using-Kineticist-but-why-does#11).

There's a bunch of feats which don't work for a kineticist because they don't wield the blast, especially style feats when in melee.

[Rynjin]

Many common buffs, such as bard song and the Prayer spell, explicitly add to weapon damage rollls, so not to kinblasts.

?

Presumably this text: "Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus." means the same for Kinetic Blasts as for Ray spells, per the relevant FAQ.

[Kurald Galain]

Presumably this text: "Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus." means the same for Kinetic Blasts as for Ray spells, per the relevant FAQ.
But a kinblast is not a ray, and neither bard song nor the Prayer spell is a feat. So you might presume so but that's not what the rules say. (edit) and the point of this thread is to suggest that maybe they should.

[Darg]

Kinetic blast isn't a weapon, but it does have infusions that turn it into one such as kinetic blade. So, kinetic blast would indeed benefit from weapon only effects if infused.

Due to the very vague wording of the benefit from feats, it technically can be specialized in if multiclassing fighter.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I'd point out that in addition to most talents being weak, the levels at which you gain talents is a bit awkward and leads to swings in effectiveness, especially at lower levels.

You should probably add a note about poor support from feats and items for what is effectively a Gish. This also hurts the class unless you're playing in low-wealth campaigns (which just hurts all martials).

[Kurald Galain]

Kinetic blast isn't a weapon, but it does have infusions that turn it into one such as kinetic blade.
And by "infusions such as kinetic blade", you mean "exactly one infusion, i.e. kinetic blade" :smallamused:

But yes, kinny becomes better if you ignore as many kinny options as possible and play it as a standard melee character. Problem is that that's really not what most kinny players want, and that this kind of character has tons of competition from other classes that do a better job at it.

[Psyren]

Conductive weapons work with a kinetic blast and can make bows a competitive option for the kineticist. Worked example here (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42owi?I-m-new-to-using-Kineticist-but-why-does#11).

There's a bunch of feats which don't work for a kineticist because they don't wield the blast, especially style feats when in melee.

Thanks, that's helpful.

I don't mind the "they don't wield the blast" text for the baseline kinny - it's very clear, and can be altered for the purposes of melee archetypes like Kinetic Knight or Elemental Ascetic where you do want styles to be a thing.


But a kinblast is not a ray, and neither bard song nor the Prayer spell is a feat. So you might presume so but that's not what the rules say. (edit) and the point of this thread is to suggest that maybe they should.

Yes, exactly - this is also helpful.

However, I was taking a look at the Warlock Vigilante's Mystic Bolts (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Vigilante%20Warloc k) for some helpful text, like the "Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts." I think there's some language I could leverage from there to clean up how the kinetic blast is interpreted/presented.

EDIT:


I'd point out that in addition to most talents being weak, the levels at which you gain talents is a bit awkward and leads to swings in effectiveness, especially at lower levels.

You should probably add a note about poor support from feats and items for what is effectively a Gish. This also hurts the class unless you're playing in low-wealth campaigns (which just hurts all martials).

Releveling talents and adding new ones would be a big part of the proposed fix. This is easier with kineticist than it might be with other rebuilds, because you can basically start with every [element descriptor] spell and figure out if the kinny should have it, and if so, when. For example, I think Kineticists should have access to the Elemental Body line for their chosen element, albeit for a moderate cost in burn.

[DrMartin]

I'm compiling notes based on the great discussion in this thread and I had a question:


I like these ideas, but not sure if they should be baseline, or talents/feats. Certainly creating a bunch of difficult terrain around you anytime you pass a certain burn threshold is not something your party is going to be too happy with you for doing. Similarly, radiating fire damage passively could have negative consequences in some locations.

If the existing static bonuses that elemental overflow grants get folded into the base class chassis, then these "aura effects" can be something you have the option to turn on when your burn gets past a threshold.

If elemental overflow keeps being something that gives you static bonuses, that these could be upgrades to elemental defense, still requiring accumulating a certain burn to activate.

I would say give them as baseline abilities, as the class certainly needs the love - but that wholly depends on how the rest of your write-up looks like.

Another option is having the aura activate automatically, but giving the option of picking a talent to exclude allies from the effects - similar to an alchemist bombs aoe + precise bombs

[Darg]

And by "infusions such as kinetic blade", you mean "exactly one infusion, i.e. kinetic blade" :smallamused:

But yes, kinny becomes better if you ignore as many kinny options as possible and play it as a standard melee character. Problem is that that's really not what most kinny players want, and that this kind of character has tons of competition from other classes that do a better job at it.

Kinetic Whip, Blade Whirlwind, and Whip Hurricane. Still, it's all the same "infusion" tree.

I too find kineticist lacking in a lot of ways and burn on many utility talents and infusions are simply unreasonably priced considering you are paying 2 costs in order to use them: selection and burn. I think the direction I would go is separate them into "spell levels" similar to warlock invocations and reduce burn cost as you access new tiers. I also don't think utility talents should be limited by element.

[Psyren]

If the existing static bonuses that elemental overflow grants get folded into the base class chassis, then these "aura effects" can be something you have the option to turn on when your burn gets past a threshold.

If elemental overflow keeps being something that gives you static bonuses, that these could be upgrades to elemental defense, still requiring accumulating a certain burn to activate.

I would say give them as baseline abilities, as the class certainly needs the love - but that wholly depends on how the rest of your write-up looks like.

Okay, I pondered this idea a bit more and I'm warming up to it.

Since Elemental Overflow shouldn't be increasing attack and damage (fixing the weird dynamic of Burn being both a good thing and a bad thing), I was trying to think of what else it should do instead. I wanted to keep the ability because the visual effect, while cosmetic, is a useful way for you and your allies (and knowledgeable enemies) to have a way of telling when you're getting near your Burn limit without metagaming. But just granting Fortification didn't feel like it was worth a whole ability.

I'm open to ideas on what to do with EO but building on the above, here's what I have so far:


Keep the Fortification buff;
Gain energy resistance corresponding to your element (and its opposite element too - e.g. as a pyrokineticist takes on Burn, they should be insulated from both cold and heat);
EO can boost the magnitude of your Elemental Defense;
High overflow allows you to share some of your Elemental Defense and energy resistance with your party in a radius around you (e.g. a pyrokineticist can keep their party warm passively.)


Any other ideas for benefits to Overflowing? And where should the attack bonuses/size bonuses come from now, if anywhere?

[Alexvrahr]

And where should the attack bonuses/size bonuses come from now, if anywhere?
Possible ways: if you're using automatic bonus progression or similar do that. If not, then perhaps kineticists could use magic weapons/amulets of mighty fists/handwraps/special focuses or whatever you think most appropriate.

Some people are actively turned off by kineticists using magic items at all though. Asking them why they like PF of all things doesn't help. If that's an issue in your group then maybe copy the magus ability to enhance their weapon?

[DrMartin]

ok, so - piecing together a few different ideas that got thrown around, and without anything more than token consideration for numbers or game balance, how about:

- Kinetic blast: have some of them tie on Strength, some on Dexterity. If you throw rocks, your ranged attack is BAB + Str, if you throw fire, BAB + dex. Either assign the stat that correspond to each blast, or let player choose, but this ties in with the next ability, so I think I'd rather have fixed pairs.

- Burn: your max burn is equal to 3 + con bonus. You have to commit burn to an effect with a duration, you recover it when the effect ends. Instantaneous effects require you to commit your burn for 24 hours / until you take a long rest. Infusion only require to commit your burn for 10 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

- at 3rd level you get a new Ability: Elemental Body, which does just that: you can accept one burn to use Elemental Body I for up to 10 minutes per level. This becomes Elemental Body II for 2 Burn at 7th, Elemental Body III for 3 burn at 11th, Elemental Body IV for 4 burn at 15th, and a to-be-extrapolated Elemental Body V for 5 burn at 19th. Maybe the scaling is way off and the progression has to be adjusted, but you get the idea.

Elemental body boosts either Str or Dex, and higher forms boost Con as well, helping with the class math. Boosts to Con give you extra Burn as well, partially offsetting the activation cost. This bonus burn is spent first, as temp hp.

(Maybe it's necessary to gate the movement abilities granted by Elemental Body I after level 5 or so, since pathfinder doesn't really expect you to fly or glide earth basically at-will at level 3).

- at 5th level, you start to add either Str or Dex to the damage of your blast as well, Unchained-Rogue like. So Elemental Body and stat-boosting items help you keep up your math.

- at 6th level, you get Elemental Overflow, which replaces internal buffer. When you spend burn, you can overflow with your element. This creates an area infused with your element in a 5ft radius around you, that moves with you.
The effects of the Aura improve when you have accepted more than [threshold] burn.

Example abilities:
- fire: foes in the area get 1d6 damage per round per 5 level you have, friends get fire resist 5 per 5 levels you have.
improved: foes are set on fire and have to save vs fatigue first and then exhaustion, friends get cold resist as well
- water: foes get bull rushed to the limit of the area, friends get cold resist
improved: foes get tripped too, friends get fire resist
- earth: foes suffer 10% miss chance + 10% per 5 levels you have, friends benefit from the same concealment from foes outside of the area.
improved: foes need to pass a reflex save to move within the area, friends get a free 5ft step
- wood: foes around you consider the area as difficult terrain, allies get partial cover
improved: foes must save or become first sickened and then nauseated, friends get full cover


too much? not enough? hot garbage?

[Psyren]

Got a bit sidetracked here, sorry!


Possible ways: if you're using automatic bonus progression or similar do that. If not, then perhaps kineticists could use magic weapons/amulets of mighty fists/handwraps/special focuses or whatever you think most appropriate.

Some people are actively turned off by kineticists using magic items at all though. Asking them why they like PF of all things doesn't help. If that's an issue in your group then maybe copy the magus ability to enhance their weapon?

I honestly think they should have both; innate bonuses that effectively get them to full BAB with kinetic blast, and access to items that boost them further, just like any other archery class :smallsmile: I've been looking at other 3/4 BAB classes that can pick up archery like the Inqusitor and Medium, as well as archetypes like the Myrmidarch Magus or Arrowsong Minstrel Bard, for inspiration here.

I would make the innate bonuses only apply to their blast though - I don't want them to just have full BAB (at least, not the base kineticist), because their martial prowess should stem from their mastery of their blast, not with any weapon they happen to pick up. That also provides incentive to shape it to fit the kineticist's needs, rather than, say, keeping it one form and using regular weapons the rest of the time. Thus I think 3/4 base with a bonus when using the blast, and some items that let the kineticist enhance it further works best.

The one caveat is that these boosts will effectively make their touch attacks (energy blasts) auto-hit, leaving SR and ER their only remaining obstacles. I'm generally okay with this since similar attacks (Eldritch Blast, Bombs, Mystic Bolt, Wounding Words etc) get similar treatment, and the energy blasts do less damage anyway (getting only half Con). I was toying with the idea of giving the physical blasts another tiny nudge too - maybe going from their current {Xd6+X+Con} to a simpler to calculate and more fun to roll {Xd8+Con}.



- Kinetic blast: have some of them tie on Strength, some on Dexterity. If you throw rocks, your ranged attack is BAB + Str, if you throw fire, BAB + dex. Either assign the stat that correspond to each blast, or let player choose, but this ties in with the next ability, so I think I'd rather have fixed pairs.

With respect, I think MAD is the last thing the class needs :smalltongue: Being Dex+Con SAD is the biggest thing the class has going for it currently imo.



- Burn: your max burn is equal to 3 + con bonus. You have to commit burn to an effect with a duration, you recover it when the effect ends. Instantaneous effects require you to commit your burn for 24 hours / until you take a long rest. Infusion only require to commit your burn for 10 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

I'm not opposed to the idea of "short duration burn" - but here I think you begin running into the recharge magic problem where now the GM has to be tracking 10-minute intervals throughout the adventuring day, even during the exploration and social pillars, instead of having the freedom to abstract things to longer increments. If I were to do something with shorter burn amounts, it would probably be at least an hour of downtime to clear, similar to 5e's short rest. I'd like to get the current daily burn allotment feeling good though before I experiment in that direction.


- at 3rd level you get a new Ability: Elemental Body, which does just that: you can accept one burn to use Elemental Body I for up to 10 minutes per level. This becomes Elemental Body II for 2 Burn at 7th, Elemental Body III for 3 burn at 11th, Elemental Body IV for 4 burn at 15th, and a to-be-extrapolated Elemental Body V for 5 burn at 19th. Maybe the scaling is way off and the progression has to be adjusted, but you get the idea.

Elemental body boosts either Str or Dex, and higher forms boost Con as well, helping with the class math. Boosts to Con give you extra Burn as well, partially offsetting the activation cost. This bonus burn is spent first, as temp hp.

(Maybe it's necessary to gate the movement abilities granted by Elemental Body I after level 5 or so, since pathfinder doesn't really expect you to fly or glide earth basically at-will at level 3).

I definitely like the idea of them getting the Elemental Body line and it costing a chunk of burn. I was thinking it should be a wild talent, but making it free/baseline isn't bad either. My one caveat is that I'm not sure what kineticists outside the classic elements, like Aether, Wood, Void and Blood would get instead.

As far as the movement abilities, as long as the level you get these talents are benchmarked to the spell level it should be fine, even if the duration or uses/day are higher than an equivalent caster.


- at 5th level, you start to add either Str or Dex to the damage of your blast as well, Unchained-Rogue like. So Elemental Body and stat-boosting items help you keep up your math.

Not sure if I like getting two stats to damage. That could get out of control quickly, especially once infusions and composite blasts (not to mention the items we'd be adding) enter the picture.


- at 6th level, you get Elemental Overflow, which replaces internal buffer. When you spend burn, you can overflow with your element. This creates an area infused with your element in a 5ft radius around you, that moves with you.
The effects of the Aura improve when you have accepted more than [threshold] burn.

Example abilities:
- fire: foes in the area get 1d6 damage per round per 5 level you have, friends get fire resist 5 per 5 levels you have.
improved: foes are set on fire and have to save vs fatigue first and then exhaustion, friends get cold resist as well
- water: foes get bull rushed to the limit of the area, friends get cold resist
improved: foes get tripped too, friends get fire resist
- earth: foes suffer 10% miss chance + 10% per 5 levels you have, friends benefit from the same concealment from foes outside of the area.
improved: foes need to pass a reflex save to move within the area, friends get a free 5ft step
- wood: foes around you consider the area as difficult terrain, allies get partial cover
improved: foes must save or become first sickened and then nauseated, friends get full cover


too much? not enough? hot garbage?

These are all great :smallsmile:

Well, all except Fire - again, Elemental Overflow should be a defensive safety net, not a way to hurt yourself for additional damage. Instead of fire damage, I would apply a scaling attack penalty to sighted creatures as you throw off sunspots/flares etc or just plain get brighter and harder to look at. Of course, that can cause a fire kineticist's allies to hate him as he ruins their attempts to sneak, so I'll probably think about that one some more.

Air feels like it should be the miss chance one rather than Earth.

[DrMartin]

Fair point on the MAD - what I was trying to do was switching certain elements to Strength altogether, but that would make expanded element options prone to MADness indeed. Didn't think it 100% through, but maybe I can expand a little on the thoughts behind

The Strength-or-Dex pairing was tying in with Elemental Body, which gives stat boost to the matching stat. The idea was to use that as the fix to the class math. For Instance: Fire Body boosts Dex, so starting at level 3 while transformed that boosts to your Dex means your to-hit gets better, and starting at level 5 your Damage improves as well. If you have Earth Body same goes but using Strength instead.

Aether and Wood etc would need homebrewing for the corresponding Elemental Forms - (as maybe would element mixes when you pick expanded elements? Paraelemental-Body? :D)

Also note that when Elemental Body ends you recover the Burn committed to it, so it's kind of an at-will ability, as long as you have enough Burn capacity to kick it off.

(Also if I am 100% honest I was just really thinking that Toph should use Strength instead of Dex :) )

Regarding the 10 minutes recover for Burn: I wanted to bring that in line with how Practitioners regain maneuvers, so that Burn becomes effectively a per-encounter resource. Maneuvers have the same 10 minutes recover mechanic out of combat, at least in 3.5 they did.

Giving Blind abilities to Fire Aura is a cool idea - is still a pretty aggressive way to express a defensive ability, goes well with fire :) . I was thinking of clouds of dust when writing the earth ability, but yeah, maybe it is a better fit for air.

[RifleAvenger]

Dropping in to say that I actually like Burn as a concept. I like a a risk/reward meter that bundles penalties with bonuses, and even how one of its biggest penalties is self-harm.

The current implementation is bad, for reasons already discussed in this thread. Gotta take some Burn to even attain a base level of competence, it's really hard to do anything worthwhile w/o taking more or screaming like a DBZ character for 10-20 seconds, and (imo) how undynamic it is. I would vastly prefer to see Burn as something that is managed within an encounter, not an irreversible creep throughout the day. Or at least can be reduced after being gained to some degree.

It's a very different system, but an analogy I'm going to try to draw here is Heat in Lancer. Taking Heat is bad; if you overcap Heat and take reactor stress, at best your mech is extra vulnerable to attack and at worst you instantly die as the reactor melts down. Taking Heat is good; systems that generate Heat on oneself tend to be very powerful otherwise and some mechs/talents/systems actually synergize with high Heat (e.g. Nuclear Cavalier talent tree and the gun that fires your super-heated fuel rods at enemies). The big difference is that Heat isn't a daily limiter so long as you don't take reactor stress. Heat is something to be managed within a single encounter.

I admit, I don't think that would work as well in Pathfinder, which is tied to daily resource attrition as a core mechanic in a way that Lancer is not. Designers' fear of an "all-day" pseudocaster breaking attrition is what probably how we wound up with the kineticist as is.

[Psyren]

So I've been working on this update quite a bit during my downtime using all the great suggestions so far, and I had another general question:

Would it be a problem if the Kineticist gained all simple blasts for their chosen element as soon as they pick it?

In other words, instead of picking a single simple blast from their element, they get both of them. For most elements this would mean getting both an energy blast and a physical blast at 1st level, which would minimize your chances of being totally hosed at low levels if you go up against the wrong kind of opponent. As a refresher, the simple blasts are:

Aether: Telekinetic Blast (physical)
Air: Air Blast (physical) + Electric Blast (energy)
Water: Water Blast (physical) + Cold Blast (energy)
Fire: Fire Blast (energy)
Earth: Earth Blast (physical)
Void: Gravity Blast (physical) + Negative Blast (energy)
Wood: Wood Blast (physical) + Positive Blast (energy)

Naturally, this means Aether, Fire, and Earth start at a bit more of a disadvantage than they currently do, so I'd probably want to make it up to them in some way, but I wanted to get opinions on the general approach. Current ideas here:Earth could gain a new Acid simple energy blast (doesn't currently exist for some reason, Paizo!). I could demote Aether's Force Blast to a simple blast and cut its damage even further to Xd4+½ Con, similar to the Alchemist's Force Bombs, and change the existing Composite to be "Greater Force Blast." And Fire, rather than gaining a physical blast, might simply get a low-level form infusion of some kind for free to represent its ease of being shaped and spread.

Any drawbacks I'm not considering with this approach?

[Darg]

One thing is the acid blast, whether it bypasses spell resistance or not. I don't think it should without a wild talent or the benefit for a composite blast (earth + acid = acid sludge).

An option for aether to fit a theme of elemental damage is a sonic damage blast. It would also fit the material manipulation theme that aether has.

Fire could simply have a chance to light something on fire based on your kineticist level.

I'm personally in favor of giving access to all blasts from an element. One thing to think about is composite blasts. Normally you get composites based on your expanded element. If you want to keep composites to a smaller number, you could choose a single composite based on your primary element for the first expanded element and for the second you get 2 more composites of your choice.

[Rynjin]

In general, a good idea. I'd make two arguments against two of the variants: you should not give Fire or Earth a second blast.

Fire is...fire. It is hands down the most destructive element, and is defined by it being an energy blast specifically. Instead, I'd buff fire by lowering the insane level requirements on many of the key fire-flavored Infusions. For an easy example, the Pyrokineticists version of Fireball (Explosion) doesn't come online until Level 13, which is nuts. It shouldn't come on any later than 7th level IMO, so should be moved down to a level 4 Infusion.

Earth is similar in that it's one of the two strongest elements in the game (the other being Air), and is defined largely by being a physical element. I can see the merits of giving it an Acid blast, but would somewhat argue against for both flavor and balance reasons; Acid damage is just brutally effective against most creatures. For Earth I think the main thing it needs is MORE Infusions rather than more Blasts. Earth has a very small number of available Infusions (though the ones that are available are all solid), and its Utility Talents in particular are limiting and that is where I think a buff to Earth should mostly be applied.

[Psyren]

I'm personally in favor of giving access to all blasts from an element. One thing to think about is composite blasts. Normally you get composites based on your expanded element. If you want to keep composites to a smaller number, you could choose a single composite based on your primary element for the first expanded element and for the second you get 2 more composites of your choice.

You're correct, this change would give access to every composite blast from any element(s) you combine. Personally I think the level hit to your secondary elements + the burn cost would be enough of a drawback to keep that buff in check, but I'll take a closer look at exactly how many new blasts each Kinny combination would gain from this.


One thing is the acid blast, whether it bypasses spell resistance or not. I don't think it should without a wild talent or the benefit for a composite blast (earth + acid = acid sludge).

Agreed, energy + bypass SR is definitely composite territory and should cost burn. Perhaps that can be another earth+water combo aside from mud blast.


An option for aether to fit a theme of elemental damage is a sonic damage blast. It would also fit the material manipulation theme that aether has.

Sonic is another one that I would put into composite territory. Even if you don't include the bypass hardness factor (which should be there imo), sonic resistance is rare enough that such a blast would functionally be untyped in many games.

Making it composite also has the advantage that I don't have to decide whether it fits air or earth better :smallbiggrin: it would simply be a matter of saying both air+aether and earth+aether can get you access, enjoy!


Fire could simply have a chance to light something on fire based on your kineticist level.

Hmm - I'd rather catching on fire be tied to Blue Flame Blast personally (i.e. Fire+Fire) but I'll consider having it be part of the simple blast. Perhaps the simple blast uses the regular catch on fire rules (capped at 1d6) while blue flame can apply a harder-hitting dot...


In general, a good idea. I'd make two arguments against two of the variants: you should not give Fire or Earth a second blast.

Fire is...fire. It is hands down the most destructive element, and is defined by it being an energy blast specifically. Instead, I'd buff fire by lowering the insane level requirements on many of the key fire-flavored Infusions. For an easy example, the Pyrokineticists version of Fireball (Explosion) doesn't come online until Level 13, which is nuts. It shouldn't come on any later than 7th level IMO, so should be moved down to a level 4 Infusion.

Earth is similar in that it's one of the two strongest elements in the game (the other being Air), and is defined largely by being a physical element. I can see the merits of giving it an Acid blast, but would somewhat argue against for both flavor and balance reasons; Acid damage is just brutally effective against most creatures. For Earth I think the main thing it needs is MORE Infusions rather than more Blasts. Earth has a very small number of available Infusions (though the ones that are available are all solid), and its Utility Talents in particular are limiting and that is where I think a buff to Earth should mostly be applied.

Yes, great feedback.

Trust me, releveling fire talents (ALL talents really, but especially fire) is on my to-do list :smallamused: I was going to do that alongside giving Fire something nice in exchange for having just one simple blast. So a free infusion for fire is still on the table.

I hear you loud and clear on Earth, especially given that it's the only simple blast that can bypass all three kinds of physical DR1. So maybe I dump the acid simple blast idea and make that purely a composite blast as stated above.

Concerning utility talents - I haven't gotten to those yet either, but one of my big changes in fact is simplifying the class greatly by getting rid of the separate "you must alternate-between-infusions-and-utility-each-level" progressions. Instead, they'd just have one pool of wild talents to choose from. If you want a kinny that is mostly utility with just a couple of infusions, you can do that. If you want the opposite, an elemental archer that can manipulate their blast 10 ways from sunday and doesn't need to do much else, you can do that too. Or you can go with one similar to what we have now that goes half-and-half if you want. But the choice should be in the hands of the player.

The class table (very WIP, more changes coming) ended up looking more like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7mj5uskqpomblc1/NewKinTable.PNG?raw=1

1Well, maybe Wood can too - but I think that one should be scaled back to just piercing or slashing personally, it's not like you're chucking a log! And Aether can too but it's restricted to whatever happens to be lying around.

[Kurald Galain]

Fire is...fire. It is hands down the most destructive element
It's intended to be, but given that fire is the most common resistance or immunity for monsters, it turns out that it's really not. So what fire really needs is a talent to bypass those.


Earth is similar in that it's one of the two strongest elements in the game
How do you figure? Other than bypassing material DR, I don't see how earth has anything going for it.

[Particle_Man]

Designers' fear of an "all-day" pseudocaster breaking attrition is what probably how we wound up with the kineticist as is.

Which is weird to me since the Warlock from 3.5 proved not to be a problem. And was three orders of magnitude easier in design.

[Psyren]

It's intended to be, but given that fire is the most common resistance or immunity for monsters, it turns out that it's really not. So what fire really needs is a talent to bypass those.

Indeed - and i think that a "searing" component that lets you ignore X fire resistance should definitely be the province of Blue Flame Blast for that reason. (And yes, I know Draining Infusion exists, but that has so many caveats that I'm probably going to throw it out entirely and start from scratch.)



How do you figure? Other than bypassing material DR, I don't see how earth has anything going for it.

From what I can see, "strongest" is relative. Earth has few huge upsides, decent utility and few traps, which would ordinarily make it average - but the number and severity of the pitfalls that come with some of the other elements cause Earth's normalcy to actually make it stand out.


Which is weird to me since the Warlock from 3.5 proved not to be a problem. And was three orders of magnitude easier in design.

Not to mention PF's own Witch, who has at-will mechanics that are simultaneously cleaner and more powerful than those of the Kinny.

[Rynjin]

It's intended to be, but given that fire is the most common resistance or immunity for monsters, it turns out that it's really not. So what fire really needs is a talent to bypass those.

Fire already has a Talent for that called Penetrating Infusion. All it really needs is to lower the base Burn to 1 (+1 per 5 reduced) and to give the standard wording for "Immunity is treated as Energy Resist 30 for the purposes of this Talent".



How do you figure? Other than bypassing material DR, I don't see how earth has anything going for it.

Combination of a few factors, partially subjective:

1.) I think physical Blasts are pound for pound stronger than Energy blasts. Physical DR is typically lower, there's no physical immunity, and physical Blasts work with Deadly Aim.

2.) Of the physical Blasts, Earth gets the best talents. They get a reliable low level AoE that scales pretty well (Impale), rare Earth Infusion allows them to overcome material DR, it has access to all of the good "Combat Maneuver" infusions, it has a solid high level AoE in Fragmentation (somewhat trash but better than nothing, whicch is what most elements get), and Magnetic Infusion is just solid. Unlike most elements I don't find myself taking an Infusion just because I HAVE to, since there are enough good ones to fill out every level.

3.) Earth gets probably the second or third best defense, after either Aether or Water's, depending on whetehr you like Aether's or not.

4.) It has great composite blasts with any other element.

[Eldonauran]

Honestly? If I had to balance out how Blue Flame blast interacted with Fire Resistance, I'd just take a page out of the divine caster's handbook and treat half of the damage as divine damage, and thus not subject to elemental resistance (ie, as per Flame Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flame-strike)). Probably make it a substance infusion, rather than an ability inherent with the composite blast.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd just take a page out of the divine caster's handbook and treat half of the damage as divine damage, and thus not subject to elemental resistance (ie, as per Flame Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flame-strike)).

The catch is that that doesn't help.

Suppose you deal 30 fire damage against fire resistance 15 (and you don't get much higher than that); you end up doing 15 damage.
Now suppose you deal 15-fire-and-15-divine damage against fire resistance 15; you end up doing... the same 15 damage.

That rule for Flame Strike is essentially flavor text and doesn't improve the spell any.

[Rynjin]

For resistance, yes. It turns immunity into 50% damage though.

[Eldonauran]

The catch is that that doesn't help.

Suppose you deal 30 fire damage against fire resistance 15 (and you don't get much higher than that); you end up doing 15 damage.
Now suppose you deal 15-fire-and-15-divine damage against fire resistance 15; you end up doing... the same 15 damage.

That rule for Flame Strike is essentially flavor text and doesn't improve the spell any.

Well, yes. Everyone has to deal with energy resistances. Kineticists are no different. The divine damage is much more desirable when facing something immune to fire damage flat out. Fire kineticists already have means to reduce an opponents fire resistance, should the need arise.

[Edea]

Raise kinetic blast's base range to 60 feet, that one's just a headscratcher. I'm also not sure why it even checks damage reduction if it's not physical, is that a Pathfinder thing?

I'm not sure why the talent progression rate is so strictly regimented, it really clutters the class up. I'd set a number of 'talents known', starting at 2 and gain another one every level. Let the player pick what types of talent they want to specialize in. I also don't know why they tried to follow spellcaster levels; I'd just use 'grades' for picking them like the warlock did.

Burn needs to go. That whole mechanic's garbage, not even going to mince words with that one. I'd probably replace it with a re-tooled version of Magic of Incarnum's essentia system (essence -> talents instead of essentia -> soulmelds).

Restrictions on talent elements also need to be relaxed considerably right from the beginning. There would be incentive to use elements that match your spec (likely revolving around the aforementioned essentia re-work), but it's too narrow as-is. The additional element spec/'composite' system's too convoluted; just have them pick one element spec, and don't punish them so much for stuff that's not within that spec.

But then the real problem with the class, the one that makes fixing this so hard: the talents themselves. They're all over the place, and a lot of them are underpowered. The whole library, bloated as it is, probably needs to be reviewed, a lot of it needs to be re-written, and that's...a big undertaking.

[Thunder999]

Raise kinetic blast's base range to 60 feet, that one's just a headscratcher. I'm also not sure why it even checks damage reduction if it's not physical, is that a Pathfinder thing?

I'm not sure why the talent progression rate is so strictly regimented, it really clutters the class up. I'd set a number of 'talents known', starting at 2 and gain another one every level. Let the player pick what types of talent they want to specialize in. I also don't know why they tried to follow spellcaster levels; I'd just use 'grades' for picking them like the warlock did.

Burn needs to go. That whole mechanic's garbage, not even going to mince words with that one. I'd probably replace it with a re-tooled version of Magic of Incarnum's essentia system (essence -> talents instead of essentia -> soulmelds).

Restrictions on talent elements also need to be relaxed considerably right from the beginning. There would be incentive to use elements that match your spec (likely revolving around the aforementioned essentia re-work), but it's too narrow as-is. The additional element spec/'composite' system's too convoluted; just have them pick one element spec, and don't punish them so much for stuff that's not within that spec.

But then the real problem with the class, the one that makes fixing this so hard: the talents themselves. They're all over the place, and a lot of them are underpowered. The whole library, bloated as it is, probably needs to be reviewed, a lot of it needs to be re-written, and that's...a big undertaking.

Kinetic blasts come in physical and energy variants, physical blasts do normal physical damage (as in bludgeoning, piercing and/or slashing) whereas energy blasts do energy damage, so naturally physical blasts interact with DR and energy with energy resistance.

The split talents is fine, one side is all the invocation style new abilities, the other is infusions for your blast, the idea is you can grab a full selection of blast infusions without having to give up your other options. Now there's plenty to improve with regards to the talents themselves, but the way you acquire them is appropriate.

Elemental specialisation is a big part of the class' theme, I wouldn't get rid of it, what I would do is remove the ridiculous reduced level for secondary/tertiary elements and make them all a bit more equal rather than some being utter garbage,

[Arkain]

You're correct, this change would give access to every composite blast from any element(s) you combine. Personally I think the level hit to your secondary elements + the burn cost would be enough of a drawback to keep that buff in check, but I'll take a closer look at exactly how many new blasts each Kinny combination would gain from this.

Maybe I'm misreading things, but this sounds like the -4 from Expanded Element. Do you actually wish to keep these level hits? I can certainly see an appeal there that the first element defines a character more because it's what they are best at ("I know some earth and water tricks, but fire is my true passion"), but I rather thought it an unreasonable nerf to the class and it's probably the first thing I'd lose. Admittedly, this view does not take into account a re-design of the class, including re-leveled talents and such.

[Psyren]

Maybe I'm misreading things, but this sounds like the -4 from Expanded Element. Do you actually wish to keep these level hits? I can certainly see an appeal there that the first element defines a character more because it's what they are best at ("I know some earth and water tricks, but fire is my true passion"), but I rather thought it an unreasonable nerf to the class and it's probably the first thing I'd lose. Admittedly, this view does not take into account a re-design of the class, including re-leveled talents and such.

I do in fact want a kineticist's primary element to matter more to them. A "pyrokineticist" who is as adept at using water (if not moreso) as a hydrokineticist just feels bad. I'm open to other ways to accomplish that feel however; while I'm not opposed to the reduced level for secondary and tertiary elements, I think a few other changes (like broadening universal talent options) might make that drawback more palatable without diluting the importance of that initial choice/manifestation.

With that said, I do think there's room for a variant of kineticist that IS equally adept at every element they know. This would be fertile ground for an archetype of some kind.


Raise kinetic blast's base range to 60 feet, that one's just a headscratcher.

60ft is the range of a warlock's eldritch blast, and for good reason. 30' is entirely too short for a primary ranged class to operate in - never mind charges, you're within range of a single move action from most creatures at that point, and some bigger or unusual monsters wouldn't even need that to reach you.

The talents that boost your range to 120' and 480' in exchange for burn can stay unchanged, but the base range being upgraded is something all kineticists would enjoy imo.


I'm also not sure why it even checks damage reduction if it's not physical, is that a Pathfinder thing?

There are both physical and energy kinetic blasts; the energy ones ignore DR but are subject to SR and ER.



I'm not sure why the talent progression rate is so strictly regimented, it really clutters the class up. I'd set a number of 'talents known', starting at 2 and gain another one every level. Let the player pick what types of talent they want to specialize in.

Indeed, this is one of the first changes I made.


Burn needs to go. That whole mechanic's garbage, not even going to mince words with that one. I'd probably replace it with a re-tooled version of Magic of Incarnum's essentia system (essence -> talents instead of essentia -> soulmelds).

I'm definitely keeping Burn (and gave several reasons why during the thread), though I'm not against further discussion about ways to improve it.
I'll tuck the essence idea away for some form of veilweaving archetype down the line though.



Restrictions on talent elements also need to be relaxed considerably right from the beginning. There would be incentive to use elements that match your spec (likely revolving around the aforementioned essentia re-work), but it's too narrow as-is. The additional element spec/'composite' system's too convoluted; just have them pick one element spec, and don't punish them so much for stuff that's not within that spec.

As noted above, I think a better option here is a bigger/better pool of "universal" talents. That way you still have to choose your element carefully, but there is more you can do regardless of that choice.

I'm also thinking of pulling Omnikinesis down from being the capstone - it's a fun yet reasonable ability that the vast majority of games will never see. A better capstone would be something like the Metamind's Font of Power but for Burn, that lets you go absolutely nuts with your most powerful and world-breaking talents - that would be ideal for a level 20 blowout, end-of-the-campaign sort of ability.


But then the real problem with the class, the one that makes fixing this so hard: the talents themselves. They're all over the place, and a lot of them are underpowered. The whole library, bloated as it is, probably needs to be reviewed, a lot of it needs to be re-written, and that's...a big undertaking.

It certainly is - I'll let you know how it goes :smallbiggrin:

[Edea]

I mean, at minimum get burn separated from your Con/hit points. It can still knock you out if it goes over a set limit, but trying to track all those different types of hp damage is obnoxious, and PF still allows situational ability score changes. Burn also has the same problem wild surge does (part of the feature gets worse the higher your level).

Have the burn limit be static according to the character's effective kineticist class level and nothing else, and then scale 'burn damage' with that new limit. Con/hit points don't even enter into the equation.

[Efrate]

IMO just play an elemental themed vizier. Using city of 7 seraphs as well as Akashic mysteries can net you a ton of elemental themed abilities or easily refluffed elemental themed abilities. When my DM asked about it I said "Its similar to bending in avatar, just with the ability to bend earth one day and fire the next. We went over it he said yep and it's a blast to play.

DSP stuff is always excellent and well regarded, and makes a better elemental blaster type than most right out the gate. Eclipse is easily refluffed as a better void skinny, radiant could easily be fire (or light if you want), etc.

At the very least discrete packages of veils as archetypes focusing on single element veils.

On keeping primary element relevant, just give an elemental focus at level 1 that scales up to like 6d6 or 7d6 or whatever your wanted power level at level 20, possibly with minor riders. Start with an extra 1d6 and nothing, at 4 its 2d6 and Minor rider, at 7 its 3d6 and slightly better minor rider or minor rider +1(or fire dazzles and at 4 goes to a -2 penalty which scales to like -6 or something). At level 10 or 11 they can pick a second focus and get half the benefits, or every 5 levels depending on how much you want to tinker.

It makes your primary thing element fairly substantially better and shows your increasing mastery. Free talents related to your primary could also be a things, freeing slots for other stuff.

So if fire is the damage focused kinny, get free fire based talents that also skew offensive and that saves slots for other utility or options.

[Arkain]

I do in fact want a kineticist's primary element to matter more to them. A "pyrokineticist" who is as adept at using water (if not moreso) as a hydrokineticist just feels bad. I'm open to other ways to accomplish that feel however; while I'm not opposed to the reduced level for secondary and tertiary elements, I think a few other changes (like broadening universal talent options) might make that drawback more palatable without diluting the importance of that initial choice/manifestation.

With that said, I do think there's room for a variant of kineticist that IS equally adept at every element they know. This would be fertile ground for an archetype of some kind.




I would argue that a hydrokineticist and a pyrokineticist being as adept at each others elements as the other just by choosing them at higher levels is not necessarily true though. It may look that way, but individual build differences should account for something. A dedicated blaster is different from a caster who uses Fireball every now and then, after all. So in this sense I'd say that the option to acquire talents requiring certain elements much earlier is not to be ignored, particularly if you want to make them attractive, yet put a huge focus on improving utility talents. So while the pyrokineticist may just be as adept at water on a basic level, maybe they lack the hydrokineticists water-based talents that make them feel more in tune with the element.
Now, Efrate has already offered some nice ideas along the lines of what I was thinking. Their idea being that Elemental Focus gives out bonuses to the first element. What I was thinking is similar, in that I considered Expanded Element giving a bonus whenever you choose to go for an element you already have access to. So you could gain a bonus and even another one for your one and only element, or gain a slight bonus to your second one later in your career. It doesn't quite work, but maybe a bit like (Advanced) Weapon Training. Gain another one at a lower bonus, or instead gain some new trick for what you have. One could also have a couple talents require a double or even triple focus, but that is probably difficult to pull off to a satisfying degree for every element.
Now, as for the bonus itself, I was thinking maybe a slight level boost. So you count as for instance 1 higher for fire, maybe if you go down that path another time it's not 2, but 3. That improves your damage, your concentration and all that, but most importantly, it would affect your access to higher level (elemental-oriented) talents, thus allowing for the elemental mastery to show by being capable of things somebody who dabbles in many elements cannot pull off. On the flip side, maybe the penalty of Expanded Element could be kept, yet mitigated via feats - but that would basically mean a feat tax. At least one problem I see there is that it may be difficult to avoid a situation where a given Kineticist just goes for one element that offers great versatility and calls it a day, disincentivizing spreading out.
... I think what I'm really saying is I'd rather see the specialty shine and be stronger than optional diversity weakened.

On the note of archetypes, I was going to say that there is one for the hyperspecialized kind of Kineticist already, but... yeah, the archetypes are mostly not great at all. Still, I think there is a place for both, a proper "avatar" styled Kineticist* (classical four elements only as a limitation, for instance) and also a specialist who goes beyond just not choosing other elements. The Blood Kineticist archetype does try to go into this direction by focusing the character rather heavily on using water.
* N. Jolly's guide does mention such an archetype from Kineticists of Porphyra, the appropriately named Elemental Avatar.

[Darg]

... I think what I'm really saying is I'd rather see the specialty shine and be stronger than optional diversity weakened.

I have to agree with this. I tried making a kineticist once and I remember the level drop felt so wrong when I realized it was there. It feels like the only reason it's there is to make make picking another element weaker to put it in line with specializing. Specializing should be just as strong as branching out without nerfs, it's not like kineticist would be OP with it gone considering the limited selection of talents in the first place.

[Psyren]

I was thinking through the basic utility wild talents next and they are really weird. They seem to function like a collection of cantrips - some granting 3 and some granting 2. For example Fire (basic pyrokinesis) duplicates Spark, Light, and Flare. Meanwhile, Air duplicates just two - Breeze, and a weird one with no analogue (at least, not one I saw) that helps you and your companions hide your scent.

I think fire's basic utility talent is the right model for these - each one gives you three cantrips (or cantrip-equivalent powers) that thematically fit your element. So with that comes the question - what three cantrip effects would represent each kineticist element best?

For Air I've already settled on adding Message (whispering your words on the wind to a distant listener is very thematic) and I'm thinking of scrapping the scent one for an electricity cantrip, but I'm not the authority on all the cantrips and orisons in PF (or 3.5 for that matter) so I can already imagine there are some really cool ones that I'm missing that would fit the 7 core kineticist elements. (As a refresher these are air, earth, fire, water, aether, void, wood.)

Oh, and thanks for all the feedback/prior comments, I did go through those too and continue to be appreciative.


I mean, at minimum get burn separated from your Con/hit points. It can still knock you out if it goes over a set limit, but trying to track all those different types of hp damage is obnoxious, and PF still allows situational ability score changes. Burn also has the same problem wild surge does (part of the feature gets worse the higher your level).

Have the burn limit be static according to the character's effective kineticist class level and nothing else, and then scale 'burn damage' with that new limit. Con/hit points don't even enter into the equation.

Well... "Burn damage" is already only based on character level, meaning that having more sources of HP (high Con, temp HP, favored class, items/buffs/etc) already dilutes its drawback. That's all it needs in my opinion. I did raise the hard cap though (to scale more with level) so if that results in kineticists carrying a bunch more burn damage and being more in danger than they were before, I'll revisit that.


IMO just play an elemental themed vizier. Using city of 7 seraphs as well as Akashic mysteries can net you a ton of elemental themed abilities or easily refluffed elemental themed abilities.

While I'm a big fan of both DSP and Akasha, "play a different class" isn't really the kind of suggestion I was looking for, no matter how effective that might prove to be :smallbiggrin:


I would argue that a hydrokineticist and a pyrokineticist being as adept at each others elements as the other just by choosing them at higher levels is not necessarily true though. It may look that way, but individual build differences should account for something. A dedicated blaster is different from a caster who uses Fireball every now and then, after all. So in this sense I'd say that the option to acquire talents requiring certain elements much earlier is not to be ignored, particularly if you want to make them attractive, yet put a huge focus on improving utility talents. So while the pyrokineticist may just be as adept at water on a basic level, maybe they lack the hydrokineticists water-based talents that make them feel more in tune with the element.

It's certainly true that build diversity could lead to this sort of difference all on its own, but I think the design should encourage that sort of diversity in the first place. If your character chooses to be a "pyrokineticist" (or more accurately, the way it works in-universe - if they are chosen to be one by some unknown power or circumstance), that choice/label should be meaningful in the sense that something should be pushing you towards fire talents... even and perhaps especially if you expand later to include secondary elements. Then an archetype can modify/break this rule.

A -4 CL hitmight be too harsh though, I'll take a closer look at that.


I have to agree with this. I tried making a kineticist once and I remember the level drop felt so wrong when I realized it was there. It feels like the only reason it's there is to make make picking another element weaker to put it in line with specializing. Specializing should be just as strong as branching out without nerfs, it's not like kineticist would be OP with it gone considering the limited selection of talents in the first place.

Given that the limited talents is something I plan to buff anyway, that drawback may not be so harsh as it first appears, but I'll take feedback once that part is ready.

[Kurald Galain]

An issue to consider is that cantrips are all over the place in terms of power level. For instance, Spark and Flare are pretty much useless; whereas Daze and Create Water are pretty good.

[Kurald Galain]

So, sticking with cantrips that are actually useful:
Aether => Daze, Enhanced Diplomacy, Mage Hand
Air => Create Water (by summoning a raincloud), Mage Hand, Message
Earth => Detect Magic, Ghost Sound (making echoes), Mending
Fire => Detect Magic, Light, Purify Food (i.e. by cooking it)
Void => Daze, Light, Ghost Sound
Water => Create Water, Enhanced Diplomacy, Stabilize
Wood => Mending, Purify Food, Stabilize

[Rerednaw]

Read most of this thread and agree with most of it.

I was a tester for the kineticist and pointed out many of the areas that could use improvement. (Many of which persist today.)

One thing that would help is if infusions had better scaling.
For example if you took 'Kinetic Blade...' say it automatically became Kinetic Whip once you reached 7th level. Blade Whirlwind should grow into Whip Hurricane at 13th level and so on.
And waiting until minimum 7th level for a non-lethal option (Expanded Metakinesis -> Merciful Spell) is kind of a slap in the face too.

Another has to do with the damage...
Composite blasts are somewhat underpowered. At 7th level, the damage for an empowered basic physical blast is nearly identical to a composite blast...only it's 1 burn vs. 2 burn.
Math-> 25 point buy, starting with 18 dex and 16 con, +2 siz bonus to each (elemental overflow), +2 belt of con (20 dex and 20 con).
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Target within 30 feet
2 points of burn into Elemental Overflow (+2/+4)
Empowered Basic Blast: 4d6+4(base)+5(con)+1(PBS)+4(EO) = 4d6+14 x 1.5 -> 14+14 x 1.5 = average 42 damage. Yes with kinetic blast, empowered also multiples the static add due to the wording.
This costs 1 burn.
Composite Blast: 8d6+16(base)+5(con)+1(PBS)+4(EO) = 8d6+26 = average 54 damage. This costs 2 burn. Now this is pretty good...about a 28% damage increase...but is it really?

Well we did have one more burn to spend...so let's say you decided on Expanded Metakinesis - Furious Spell with your Empowered Blast. Now it's 4d6+14+6(at 7th level) x 1.5 or 14+20 x 1.5 = average 51 damage. For the same 2 burn.

So basically your signature high damage blast grants you an average of 3 whopping extra points or 5.8% damage increase for the same amount of burn.
In other words, composite blast is essentially not an upgrade at all. While it's not terrible...one would have hoped for more considering how long you have already waited. And needless to say you are playing a Gathlain race...anything else and your damage capability drops even further.

And nope not going to compare numbers with dedicated blaster evokers...that's a whole other story and it's a different meta (nova vs. sustained)...wizards, sorcerers, arcanists, etc...all can nova way better than a kineticist...but that's to be expected.

On the plus side Kineticist does have a rather decent floor in terms of capability. There are several 'trap' combos, but every class has them. I personally like Aether (telekinesis) for it's utility and having one of the best defense talents. Air would rate high simply due to it's access to Haste (Celerity) but it's dinged due to it's weak defense. And if you're playing a Gathlain the other big appeal of Air (at-will flight) doesn't mean as much since you already can fly. Earth has a wonderful defense but is dinged to only having physical blasts...which means welcome to miss-ville. Though at-will earth glide is pretty awesome...did you really want to wait 10 levels before you could do it? Water is a happy medium of decent offense, defense, and utility...but you pay for this by being almost jack of trades in a class that is already a master of none. Fire is really the best at AoE damage...and even single target is nothing to sneer at...but in turn you must expect to run into fire immune creatures, get used to having one of the worst defense talents, no utility to speak of...but man setting things on fire is the bomb :) .

All said...I still love the concept of the class. Ever since it came out, I have played kineticists far more than any other class.

Oh regarding cantrips? I'd add Disrupt Undead to Wood (positive energy blast ftw)...

[vasilidor]

To be honest, having read through the kineticist, it just seems like it would be entirely unfun to play.

[Eldonauran]

To be honest, having read through the kineticist, it just seems like it would be entirely unfun to play.I can offer you only my own experience, and those of the players I have DM-ed for. None of us have ever expressed a similar opinion about the kineticist. In fact, it is now quite common for at least one of our characters to be a kineticist. Our most recent game has an Aether Kineticist with secondary focus in Wood, and one character that dipped two levels of Elemental Ascetic (Aether) to augment their build. No 3rd party material either.

You mileage my vary, of course. It think it all comes down to what your expectations and playstyles are.

[Florian]

To be honest, having read through the kineticist, it just seems like it would be entirely unfun to play.

(also @Psyren)

Kinny is fun. But you have to go at the class with the right expectations. In a sense, the class behaves more like a traditional T3 chassis, the way that you need a solid build at the core, and use your power to boost that beyond it.
You really can't compare it to the old warlock class, in the sense that you simply got to spam you stuff, that would be the Witch.

[Darg]

Considering that with a few minor alterations to update the warlock for pathfinder, it pretty much matches the kineticist in power level. I think that's part of where the problem lies. Using pathfinder, warlock is relatively weaker than its 3.5 counterpart, and it wasn't exactly a star there either.

Although I would say that it isn't that the kineticist wouldn't be fun, it's the continuous feeling that you are just barely missing something all the time that is unlike the warlocks I've built. It's actually pretty weird considering you get more stuff. Maybe it has to do with talents being heavily divided into elements.

[Kurald Galain]

To be honest, having read through the kineticist, it just seems like it would be entirely unfun to play.
That is my experience as well. I have seen several players abandon a kinny mid-campaign because they found it a one-trick pony (in combat, they do the same thing every single round over and over and over; and all their out-of-combat talents are immediately upstaged by any 6- or 9-level caster in the party).

And in PFS, at least in my area, nobody has played a kinny for more than two or three sessions.

Unfun is a good description. Lots of fiddliness for no real benefit.

[VoltsofEight]

My biggest issue with the Kineticist isn't just that it's a bad class. It is in alot of ways, it's that because it's tied to such an interesting concept alot of people will want to play it regardless of it's actual functionality. Like you'll get some people saying, "Well after me and/or my DM jumped through all the hoops necessary to understand the class, and after I tempered my expectations on what the class actually is and can do I had a good time and think the class is actually worth it. Anyone could play it.".

And it's get's worse because of how the general community responds to 3rd party content. The idea that instead of playing the bad class or using the bad options we could use the good stuff refuses to catch on. Paizo could come out and just allow certain 3rd party stuff in Pathfinder Society and kill this attitude. Same with WotC with the fixes to the Ranger or the Way of the 4 Elements. But instead they skirt around the problem saying things like "You CAN use 3rd party stuff in your game if you want to. It's your table." And the idea of 3rd party stuff can't catch on.

In this very thread OP said how it would probably be more likely to have a class be accepted as a completely rebuilt version, untested and all, over the tested well received 3rd party class or 3rd party versions and add-on of the class. It just irks me.

[Kris Moonhand]

In this very thread OP said how it would probably be more likely to have a class be accepted as a completely rebuilt version, untested and all, over the tested well received 3rd party class or 3rd party versions and add-on of the class. It just irks me.This didn't just hit the nail on the head, it sent the nail through to the center of the earth. I swear, 99% of the problems people have with Kineticist would be fixed if they just used Legendary Kineticist. Pick up the Ultimate Kineticist Compendium, folks. It's got all the OG kinny stuff, LegKinny, plus about a thousand more wild talents, feats, archetypes, items, and cool weird junk like Elemental Mutations.

[Eldonauran]

"Well after me and/or my DM jumped through all the hoops necessary to understand the class, and after I tempered my expectations on what the class actually is and can do I had a good time and think the class is actually worth it. Anyone could play it."
That is certainly a common, valid opinion on the class. It is also an opinion shared by many for a number of the other classes as well. Same goes for the people who do not share the same opinions on the matter, for either. Not every class is going to fit in at every table or with every play style. I believe that is the intended function of 3rd party material or homebrew. Change it to fit your table, rather than insist that everyone else adopt the same changes. I can see the friction where PFS is concerned, but that is a PFS and PFS player problem.

[Kurald Galain]

And it's get's worse because of how the general community responds to 3rd party content. The idea that instead of playing the bad class or using the bad options we could use the good stuff refuses to catch on. Paizo could come out and just allow certain 3rd party stuff in Pathfinder Society and kill this attitude.
To be fair, with the notable exception of Dreamscarred Press, pretty much all 3rd-party content I've seen is poorly written, poorly tested, poorly balanced; and frequently all of the above. I know this forum gets a lot of Paizo-bashing, but 3rd-party is almost universally much, much worse than what Paizo puts out (again, except DSP).

And the kinny has the obvious 1st-party solutions of "just play a sorcerer" or "just play an alchemist". If you want to bring 3rd-party into it, then DSP also solves the issue. No need to wade into the cesspool of other 3rd-party stuff, really.

[Darg]

And the worst part about 3rd party is that you have to explain everything to everyone at the table as things come up because not everyone has access to the 3rd party content to understand how it would interact with the table. Sometimes this can lead to feeling as if you weren't playing well with the group or possibly out of no where overshadow the group as they didn't have the capacity to truly understand the interactions the content could have.

[Kris Moonhand]

To be fair, with the notable exception of Dreamscarred Press, pretty much all 3rd-party content I've seen is poorly written, poorly tested, poorly balanced; and frequently all of the above. I know this forum gets a lot of Paizo-bashing, but 3rd-party is almost universally much, much worse than what Paizo puts out (again, except DSP).

And the kinny has the obvious 1st-party solutions of "just play a sorcerer" or "just play an alchemist". If you want to bring 3rd-party into it, then DSP also solves the issue. No need to wade into the cesspool of other 3rd-party stuff, really.I'm sorry... what? There are several great publishers besides DSP. Legendary Games, Lost Spheres Publishing, Cobalt Sages, Little Red Goblin Games, Alluria Publishing, Drop Dead Studios.

[Rynjin]

I'd say the only major publisher that isn't professional level is Rogue Genius.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm sorry... what? There are several great publishers besides DSP. Legendary Games, Lost Spheres Publishing, Cobalt Sages, Little Red Goblin Games, Alluria Publishing, Drop Dead Studios.
There's also Ascension Games, Flaming Crab, Kobold Press, Radiance House, Rite Publishing, and several others. If some of those publishers are great and others are crap, how would anyone know? You expect any GM to just take your word for it? The only ones that are ever mentioned in forum discussions are DSP and Spheres (and the non-sphere material by Drop Dead Studios isn't mentioned either), so it's very reasonable for GMs to conclude that everything else is a huge pile of random quality that isn't worth looking into.

(edit) actually, it might be interesting to have a thread about which 3PP are great and which ones are crap, but I wouldn't expect it to yield any consensus.

[stack]

There can be a great deal of variation within a company too. It's a small market business that relies heavily on freelancers.

[digiman619]

There's also Ascension Games, Flaming Crab, Kobold Press, Radiance House, Rite Publishing, and several others. If some of those publishers are great and others are crap, how would anyone know? You expect any GM to just take your word for it? The only ones that are ever mentioned in forum discussions are DSP and Spheres (and the non-sphere material by Drop Dead Studios isn't mentioned either), so it's very reasonable for GMs to conclude that everything else is a huge pile of random quality that isn't worth looking into.

(edit) actually, it might be interesting to have a thread about which 3PP are great and which ones are crap, but I wouldn't expect it to yield any consensus.


There can be a great deal of variation within a company too. It's a small market business that relies heavily on freelancers.
To be fair, the same can be said of Paizo as well. See: The Shifter.

[VoltsofEight]

snip

I didn't want to be too aggressive in my hypothetical so that I didn't come off as a jerk but I'll be a bit more clear. When I say "jump through hoops" I don't mean that the class is just a little bit harder to understand, it's a ****ton harder to understand all for the privilege of playing a class that unless you fully got everything, in my opinion, feels like crap to play and is way more limited than the image you have in your head of what that class should play like and feel like. And once you do fully understand the class it ends up as a one note wonder(with exception to the Aether element which sacrifices most of it's damage for for some utility that also feels one note-y).

And that's what I mean when I say "tempered my expectations" because it genuinely feels like the concept should be able to do more. Especially compared to other classes that feel like they got too much on the power and versatility side of things. Compare learning the Kinny as someone who never played the class before, new to Pathfinder or experienced with the system, to learning the Gunslinger, or the Alchemist, or even the Medium. I would argue that the Medium is similarly confusing but at least it's a good class with multiple options on how to play it so it feels worth it.

I've actually read people talking about their experience playing the class and how they got it to work which involved flashcards and all I can think of is "well if you're doing all that for this ****ty class how would you like to use flashcards for a PoW class that is actually good and fun to play without having any of that baggage?" But that likely won't happen.

I don't know if that mindset comes from PFS and spreads outwards or if it merely crystallizes there since the people are playing "official Pathfinder", I just know that it sucks. And it's not just in PFS, it's in D&D too. You would think that in 3.5 people would be more open about 3rd Party classes but not so much in my experience or in places I've read about. Instead people would more likely tell you to go to Dragon Magazine #73 page 12, paragraph 4, to pick up this random feat, then play this particular race you've never heard of to get that one particular racial feat and THEN just get blah, blah, blah. Having you look up 7 different sources just to play one concept that is all in this one class.


snip

Nah, I get that. Like other people have said there are other notable devs out there. But I feel like unless you and your friends decide to play spur of the moment randomly on a Tuesday afternoon everybody participating has time to look at who they're gonna play. If your friend comes and says they want to play this 3rd Party class and you look it up just to see what it is and people's experience with it, like you would for any weird concept you would have as a GM, and you see more than a handful of reviews, reddit posts, or forum topics about the class maybe you could give it a shot(note that this doesn't mean read every single one of those things just that knowing that they exist could be enough to be comfortable with trying).

On the other hand if you look up the class and all you find is some D&DWiki article posted by username totallynotBrucesfriend then yeah, you probably shouldn't give that a second look.

Also, just want to be clear that I'm not blaming you for any of this or your reasons for not wanting to use 3rd Party content. Just general exhaustion with the mindset and this was a chance to vent. Sorry for derailing your topic for a little bit.

[Psyren]

Whew, 5 weeks, still under the limit!


This didn't just hit the nail on the head, it sent the nail through to the center of the earth. I swear, 99% of the problems people have with Kineticist would be fixed if they just used Legendary Kineticist. Pick up the Ultimate Kineticist Compendium, folks. It's got all the OG kinny stuff, LegKinny, plus about a thousand more wild talents, feats, archetypes, items, and cool weird junk like Elemental Mutations.

I read Legendary Kineticist and while it has some good ideas, it still has others I'm not as enthused about, as I discussed with N.Jolly earlier in the thread. For example it keeps the 30' base range on KB, it keeps the disconnect between hating burn but wanting a minimum amount of it to be able to have a chance of hitting things, and it conversely changes the downside for having burn completely to one that barely has an impact in combat at all. It also has a pool of consequence-free "encounter burn" (battle burn) which to me is conceptually redundant with the Internal Buffer (I don't think the class needs two "free burn" pools to track), as well as not really needing a per-encounter resource either. All this is to say, LK isn't my cup of tea so I'm still plugging away at a rework of my own for my GM/table that I'm also happy to share for anyone else who might be interested once it's up.


Considering that with a few minor alterations to update the warlock for pathfinder, it pretty much matches the kineticist in power level. I think that's part of where the problem lies. Using pathfinder, warlock is relatively weaker than its 3.5 counterpart, and it wasn't exactly a star there either.

Although I would say that it isn't that the kineticist wouldn't be fun, it's the continuous feeling that you are just barely missing something all the time that is unlike the warlocks I've built. It's actually pretty weird considering you get more stuff. Maybe it has to do with talents being heavily divided into elements.

I think the elemental divide matters somewhat, but isn't nearly as impactful as the utility/infusion divide. You should just have freedom in picking whichever wild talents you want - if you're in a campaign where you can get the blast where you want it to be with 4-5 talents and can devote the other 9-11 to utility stuff (assuming a typical campaign that ends in the 13-15 range). Conversely, if you're in a combat-heavy campaign where you want to be elemental archery/artillery with a couple of neat tricks or movement modes, you should be able to do that too. And if you want a more traditional kineticist that divides its attention between these approaches, it should be able to do that too. In other words, the wall between those two buckets should just be torn down.

On top of this, the Kinny's chassis is just weird - they need certain elements to even have a place in the party without their magic. For me, being one with the elements means spending more time outdoors than most people, so you shouldn't need specific elements to have class skills like Climb, Swim and Fly, and the class that is about being one with the elements should definitely be able to intuitively understand things like planes, arcana, geography, and nature. If you want specific elements to be better at certain activities (like the water kineticists being better swimmers), I think that's better accomplished through mechanics like Skill Focus than the approach they went with.


I didn't want to be too aggressive in my hypothetical so that I didn't come off as a jerk but I'll be a bit more clear. When I say "jump through hoops" I don't mean that the class is just a little bit harder to understand, it's a ****ton harder to understand all for the privilege of playing a class that unless you fully got everything, in my opinion, feels like crap to play and is way more limited than the image you have in your head of what that class should play like and feel like. And once you do fully understand the class it ends up as a one note wonder(with exception to the Aether element which sacrifices most of it's damage for for some utility that also feels one note-y).

And that's what I mean when I say "tempered my expectations" because it genuinely feels like the concept should be able to do more. Especially compared to other classes that feel like they got too much on the power and versatility side of things. Compare learning the Kinny as someone who never played the class before, new to Pathfinder or experienced with the system, to learning the Gunslinger, or the Alchemist, or even the Medium. I would argue that the Medium is similarly confusing but at least it's a good class with multiple options on how to play it so it feels worth it.

I've actually read people talking about their experience playing the class and how they got it to work which involved flashcards and all I can think of is "well if you're doing all that for this ****ty class how would you like to use flashcards for a PoW class that is actually good and fun to play without having any of that baggage?" But that likely won't happen.

I don't know if that mindset comes from PFS and spreads outwards or if it merely crystallizes there since the people are playing "official Pathfinder", I just know that it sucks. And it's not just in PFS, it's in D&D too. You would think that in 3.5 people would be more open about 3rd Party classes but not so much in my experience or in places I've read about. Instead people would more likely tell you to go to Dragon Magazine #73 page 12, paragraph 4, to pick up this random feat, then play this particular race you've never heard of to get that one particular racial feat and THEN just get blah, blah, blah. Having you look up 7 different sources just to play one concept that is all in this one class.


Agreed - the level of mental frontloading you have to do with this class to get baseline performance out of it is criminal. A huge offender here is the class table, which does not help at all with understanding many of the core and even hidden mechanics to this class.

The class table should tell you the basic numbers this class has to offer. Roughly how easy will it be for me to hit enemies? How much base damage will I do? How many talents will I know at a given level? Kinny's table does none of that, nor does it even highlight the abilities you'll need to understand to answer those questions. Compare to something like the Alchemist - a class that is arguably just as complex - where all of this information is laid out right in front of the new player. Or compare to a Warlock/Witch's table. That is what a redesigned Kineticist should do, and what I'm working on (slowly but steadily) with mine.

[DrMartin]

I think the elemental divide matters somewhat, but isn't nearly as impactful as the utility/infusion divide. You should just have freedom in picking whichever wild talents you want - if you're in a campaign where you can get the blast where you want it to be with 4-5 talents and can devote the other 9-11 to utility stuff (assuming a typical campaign that ends in the 13-15 range). Conversely, if you're in a combat-heavy campaign where you want to be elemental archery/artillery with a couple of neat tricks or movement modes, you should be able to do that too. And if you want a more traditional kineticist that divides its attention between these approaches, it should be able to do that too. In other words, the wall between those two buckets should just be torn down.


I think that the divide between combat and utility powers helps in making characters more interesting to play at the table, and it also helps with the design of said talents.

The first problem it´s something I´ve seen with, for instance, Spheres of Might characters, where I can sink all my talents to do some crazy stuff, But in a lot of cases that one thing is The One Thing you are doing every round that you can pull it off. Fun to build but repetitive to play. Having a system that forces you to allocate your character resources to different areas will result in more rounded characters - which are generally more fun to play that 1 trick ponies.

The second problem is that it is very hard to balance utility talents between each other as it is, it becomes even harder if they have to contend for the same resource as a combat power. Unless you have clear indication from the GM that your blasting is already where it´s supposed to be for the campaign you are playing, but that takes a level of planning, understanding the system and foresight on the GM and player side that is not really always there, in my experience.

Maybe you could offer a chance to change where the divide between utility and combat lies through archetypes? I could see an utility-focused kineticist that gets a way to flex utility talents, to be, well, *actually* useful.

[Kurald Galain]

Having a system that forces you to allocate your character resources to different areas will result in more rounded characters - which are generally more fun to play that 1 trick ponies.
While I personally agree with you that rounded characters are more fun, I get the impression that a substantial amount of players disagree; so I'm not so sure if the system should force you to.

[DrMartin]

well - I´ll give you that, offering some guideline in how characters resources should be allocated runs quite contrary to the "a la carte" 3.5/PF philosophy - But! I´d argue that it is not necessarily a bad thing, per-se. A system that provide some help in making a fun *and* effective character is, in my book, a plus.

On a not-too-unrelated note: maybe it´s just my personal experience, but when I explain the game to a new player and go through character creation, it all goes smoothly until Feats. "And now pick one among these 7000 options, which can do pretty much everything! Some make you hit harder with a weapon, some can improve a bit how good you are at cooking. Some of them suck, but allow you to pick better ones later on. Others don´t, they just suck!"

[Kurald Galain]

well - I´ll give you that, offering some guideline in how characters resources should be allocated runs quite contrary to the "a la carte" 3.5/PF philosophy - But! I´d argue that it is not necessarily a bad thing, per-se. A system that provide some help in making a fun *and* effective character is, in my book, a plus.

Oh, I definitely agree that allocating feats requires guidelines and/or assistance from an experienced player. But that issue doesn't really apply to kinny talents, because it's a much shorter list.

[Psyren]

I agree that rounded characters are more fun, and that good design will encourage players to naturally gravitate in that direction. However I don't think forcing those players to spend fully half their talents on infusions is the best way to get there by a long shot.

I think starting the player off with both an infusion and a non-infusion wild talent is enough to plant the seed. The division is still there (infusions being a specific type of wild talent that modify blasts and interact with things like Infusion Specialization) but your loadout is not so rigidly enforced. Maybe at each Expanded Element you do the same thing (infusion + non-infusion) so that over the course of their career, they're forced to at least have either three infusions or three utility talents.



On a not-too-unrelated note: maybe it´s just my personal experience, but when I explain the game to a new player and go through character creation, it all goes smoothly until Feats. "And now pick one among these 7000 options, which can do pretty much everything! Some make you hit harder with a weapon, some can improve a bit how good you are at cooking. Some of them suck, but allow you to pick better ones later on. Others don´t, they just suck!"

As Kurald mentioned, wild talents won't cause nearly the paralysis that PF feats are capable of; but speaking for my table, we'd resolve both those questions the same way, by directing that inexperienced player toward a handbook.