Should Healing Light Get A Bump?

[Amechra]

So, I was recently looking at the Circle of Dreams, and it struck me how much better Balm of the Summer Court is than the Celestial Patron Warlock's Healing Light.

Druid: You get {1+level}d6 healing dice that you recover when you spend a long rest. You can spend up to half your druid level in dice as a bonus action to heal an ally within 120ft. Oh, and your ally gets temporary hit-points equal to the number of dice you spent.

Warlock: You get the same number of dice. However, you can only spend a number of them up your Charisma modifier at any one time, the range is 60ft, and they don't get any temporary hit-points.

On the one hand, the Warlock can spend more dice than the Druid can until Tier 3. On the other hand, your range is much shorter, and there isn't that temporary HP rider. I'm wondering if it'd be appropriate to give Healing Light a similar temporary HP rider.

---

A semi-related question: does anyone know of a good way to signal to the rest of the party that they don't need to go out of their way to pick up healing (because you've got it handled)? It's a minor thing, but I remember being pretty frustrated about it when I played my Celestial Warlock, since the rest of the party seemingly missed the fact that I was playing someone healing-focused, including the DM.

[Chaosmancer]

Well, for signalling, I'd just take the direct approach and tell them that you are playing a healing focused character and talk to them about the ways you plan on doing that.

Maybe they don't know you can heal, or maybe they don't think what you have will be enough, but either way, directly talking to them about it is the fastest way.


As for the healing. Yeah, it is weak. I rewrote it to allow you to spend half level after 12th level (under the assumption you will have a 4 of 5 charisma bonus). That was the only change I made to the level 1 ability, but I also replaced the radiant/fire damage buff with a buff to healing instead. Which makes them really good healers in terms of hp.


My final change was to the 10th level ability. I made it closer to Inspiring Leader and gave them a bonus to temp hp if they had Inspiring Leader. Because A) Inspiring Leader is far better than your 10th level ability since it gives all creatures level + mod instead of 1/2 level + mod and B) You can get it at level four, and you want it, so you either ignore the 10th level ability as a dead level, or wait for a worse version of the ability. Either way sucks

[AdAstra]

1. Class features, even if they do similar things, don’t necessarily have to be balanced with each other. As an example, the Monk’s Diamond Soul is objectively better than the Rogue’s Slippery Mind by a wide margin (proficiency with one save for SM vs proficiency with ALL saves, plus save rerolls for DS). This is actually a case where I think there is a serious imbalance that should be addressed, but it still illustrates the point.

2. The Celestial Warlock also gets bonus spell options and two free cantrips when you pick the subclass, while the Dreams Druid only gets the healing. Overall, at the level you get the subclass I would say they’re roughly even, or even in favor of the Celestial.

Basically, the Warlock gets other things that compensate for the weaker healing, and even if that weren’t the case, different classes have different amounts of power coming from their subclasses.

As for signaling, I’d just be direct about it. There’s nothing wrong with reminding people OOC about your class features.

[Nagog]

Just a note: Druids get a number of d6s equal to your level, Warlocks get one more than that.

I get what you're saying, and for the most part I agree with you. I would say however that in early game (Tier 1) Warlock can use more at once, which is great and useful, bit scales out worse past that point. However, Celestial Warlocks also get stronger abilities later on than a Dream Druid does. So while Balm remains a stalwart and effective source of healing into higher tiers of play, their later abilities are rather lackluster by comparison, while Celestial Patron gets new, powerful abilities once their healing phases out of the meta.

[Tanarii]

Different classes get different power levels from their subclass vs base class, and that can change as you level up. There's no point in directly comparing subclass features.

Actually that holds for base class features too. There's no point in comparing them in isolation.

[Contrast]

As has been mentioned druids get level d6, warlocks get 1+level d6. Plus different classes get different amounts of power from their subclass. That said, buff it if you want - it seems a pretty marginal difference to me.


A semi-related question: does anyone know of a good way to signal to the rest of the party that they don't need to go out of their way to pick up healing (because you've got it handled)? It's a minor thing, but I remember being pretty frustrated about it when I played my Celestial Warlock, since the rest of the party seemingly missed the fact that I was playing someone healing-focused, including the DM.

...I mean while you could try and come up with some way of hinting this at the party, I have always found the use of language quite effective. Talk to your party and DM, explain what you're hoping to bring to the table and get out of the game and find out what they are hoping to bring to the table and get out of the game. That said, the more people with access to Healing Word (or equivilent) the better in my opinion. I don't think Celestial warlock packs enough healing that I'd feel comfortable telling everyone else not to both prepping Healing Word.

[Chaosmancer]

2. The Celestial Warlock also gets bonus spell options and two free cantrips when you pick the subclass, while the Dreams Druid only gets the healing. Overall, at the level you get the subclass I would say they’re roughly even, or even in favor of the Celestial.

To be honest though, Light is a cantrip with very limited usefulness (and if you go Aasimar you get it twice with no recourse) and Sacred Flame is a low-tier cantrip too (unless you are fighting undead or dealing with a lot of cover, it offers pretty much nothing, and the damage it low enough you might end up using Eldritch Blast anyways.


The more I think of it, the more anti-synergistic Celestial seems. An Aasimar with Inspiring Leader should be one of the best routes for a Celestial Warlock concept, and it just cancels and deletes abilities from the class.

[Bobthewizard]

Celestial warlock is great as is. Healing light is best used one at a time to bring back downed allies. In practice, being able to use more dice is a trap anyway. You want to use as little as possible to bring someone back so you can do it more times.

No need to add the THP rider since you get Celestial resistance at level 10 and the whole party gets THP.

[Man_Over_Game]

To be honest though, Light is a cantrip with very limited usefulness (and if you go Aasimar you get it twice with no recourse) and Sacred Flame is a low-tier cantrip too (unless you are fighting undead or dealing with a lot of cover, it offers pretty much nothing, and the damage it low enough you might end up using Eldritch Blast anyways.

Don't forget that you do happen to buff your radiant and fire damage eventually. On top of that, the addition of Sacred Flame means you don't need to get Eldritch Blast as a cantrip. Sure, you still can, if you wanted to stack invocations and go full EB build, but if that's not a concern, just stick with Sacred Flame. You're going probably going to be casting your leveled spells more than you are your cantrips, though.

[MrStabby]

The other thing I would add, to the already good points, is that druid gets more healing options anyway.

Balm of the summer court might add more healing, but it doesnt add extra functionality. The warlocks healing adds it to a class that otherwise wouldn't have it.

[Chaosmancer]

Don't forget that you do happen to buff your radiant and fire damage eventually. On top of that, the addition of Sacred Flame means you don't need to get Eldritch Blast as a cantrip. Sure, you still can, if you wanted to stack invocations and go full EB build, but if that's not a concern, just stick with Sacred Flame. You're going probably going to be casting your leveled spells more than you are your cantrips, though.

Yeah, but that feels like a trap to me.

Warlocks have three spells that do Radiant damage, total. The lowest level one being Sickening Radiance at 4th level. And one of those is Wall of Light, which kind of sucks.

Celestial gives you Guiding Bolt, which is great, but by 6th level you are talking 3rd level slots, so it is already 6d6 damage and a rider for advantage, which is pretty good and doesn't really need the buff to damage.


So, with sacred flame, you could deal 1d6 then 2d6 until you hit level 6.

Or, you could take eldritch blast and deal 1d10+cha mod by level 2.

Even at level 6, you are talking save vs nothing on 3d6+cha mod (including hex) as opposed to 2d10+2d6+cha mod twice on Eldritch blast.




It is actually the same story with fire damage too. They only get three fire spells naturally. The expanded list helps by giving Flaming Sphere which can be excellent with the mod bonus, same with Wall of fire, but that is it.

You end up with an entire ability based on giving you a worse version of what you can do with cantrips at level 2, or a small buff to half a dozen spells? Most of which you might not even take.

[Dork_Forge]

As already mentioned the balancing is that you get 1thp per die spent on the Druid whereas you get 1 extra die on the Warlock.

Personally I prefer Healing Light and think it's more potent because realistically you can spend more at once than you can Balm of the Summer Court:

Healing Light allows you to spend a number of d6s equal to your Cha mod, so likely starting at 3 at once, moving up to 4 at 4th and 5 at 8th. Because BotSC is half your Druid level you can't actually spend more than the Warlock until level 12 and you're actually behind them (assuming Warlock bumps Cha with ASIs) until level 10. By the time it evens out the Warlock is now handing out more temp hp in a single rest than the Druid is with all of their d6s.

In higher level games (12+) Balm might pull ahead of Healing Light in a straight comparison (HL is still better for yoyo healing if that's your thing) but overall it's counteracted by the temp hp of the Warlock at those levels.

If your thing is directly healing the party and providing them with temp hp go Warlock, if you want to be a general support character then probably go Druid.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, but that feels like a trap to me.

Warlocks have three spells that do Radiant damage, total. The lowest level one being Sickening Radiance at 4th level. And one of those is Wall of Light, which kind of sucks.

Celestial gives you Guiding Bolt, which is great, but by 6th level you are talking 3rd level slots, so it is already 6d6 damage and a rider for advantage, which is pretty good and doesn't really need the buff to damage.


So, with sacred flame, you could deal 1d6 then 2d6 until you hit level 6.

Or, you could take eldritch blast and deal 1d10+cha mod by level 2.

Even at level 6, you are talking save vs nothing on 3d6+cha mod (including hex) as opposed to 2d10+2d6+cha mod twice on Eldritch blast.




It is actually the same story with fire damage too. They only get three fire spells naturally. The expanded list helps by giving Flaming Sphere which can be excellent with the mod bonus, same with Wall of fire, but that is it.

You end up with an entire ability based on giving you a worse version of what you can do with cantrips at level 2, or a small buff to half a dozen spells? Most of which you might not even take.

I think you might be looking at it from the wrong angle.

You've already described 3 versatile, staple spells that most casters would use consistently that are already getting buffs at level 6, and a complaint was that Sacred Flame wasn't effective with Hex.

Maybe Celestial isn't your thing? It definitely seems like you're dead set on the standard EB build, which I'd say Celestial is probably pretty bad at (as your Concentration will be competing with Hex vs. virtually all of your best spells).

[Chaosmancer]

I think you might be looking at it from the wrong angle.

You've already described 3 versatile, staple spells that most casters would use consistently that are already getting buffs at level 6, and a complaint was that Sacred Flame wasn't effective with Hex.

Maybe Celestial isn't your thing? It definitely seems like you're dead set on the standard EB build, which I'd say Celestial is probably pretty bad at (as your Concentration will be competing with Hex vs. virtually all of your best spells).

I'm looking specifically at the 6th level ability and whether it is worth it, or if it would be better changed to something else.

Is guiding bolt good? Yes. Does it it need +4 or +5 damage from Cha? No, it is good regardless. And you've been casting it for 5 levels without this boost.

Flaming Sphere good? Maybe, I don't see it used much. Could be good with the boost, but you've been casting it for three levels without the boost, so you had to decide on this pretty early on.

wall of Fire? Very good spell even without the boost.

And, if you don't want to look at Hex with sacred flame, you can still look at it without. Using Cha +4 for ease

2d6+4 on single save, or nothing.
2d10+8 over two attack rolls.

And again, since you don't get the damage boost til level 6, you are essentially looking at level 2 and saying "In four levels of play (a large chunk of the game) I could boost Sacred Flame, so I'm not going to boost Eldritch Blast now"

But if you take Agonizing blast, and you only have Guiding Bolt and Wall of Fire (which are excellent spells regardless) are you really excited about a small damage boost to a small subset of spell?

I just think it could be altered into something much more interesting and useful. Or, like I did, just pump it into increasing healing and make this a powerful healing option.

[1Pirate]

Inspiring leader eats up a feat though, I don't think the extra THP gained from it is worth a Cha increase, Moderately Armored, Warcaster, Resilient Con, Luck, or some other Feats I can't think of right now.

Also, if your DM is like mine, or even like me, you're gonna need to RP the first 30-60 seconds of the speech every time you use it. That can get old for some.

[Nagog]

Inspiring leader eats up a feat though, I don't think the extra THP gained from it is worth a Cha increase, Moderately Armored, Warcaster, Resilient Con, Luck, or some other Feats I can't think of right now.

Also, if your DM is like mine, or even like me, you're gonna need to RP the first 30-60 seconds of the speech every time you use it. That can get old for some.

Druids already have Medium Armor proficiency, but because they have really heavy and unnecessary flavor enforcement that even ruins multiclasses into Druid, you only have access to Hide armor, which is already worse than some light armors.

Also, tell the DM your "Inspiring Leader" is flavored as your PC cooking food for the party. It makes more sense mechanically with it being once per rest (need time to cook) and it gets the game rolling without the player needing to muster up Charisma they may not have (but their PC does). I've done this with my Triton Fighter, and we recently fought Dinosaurs so we've been surviving on gourmet dino nuggets.

[Chaosmancer]

Druids already have Medium Armor proficiency, but because they have really heavy and unnecessary flavor enforcement that even ruins multiclasses into Druid, you only have access to Hide armor, which is already worse than some light armors.

Also, tell the DM your "Inspiring Leader" is flavored as your PC cooking food for the party. It makes more sense mechanically with it being once per rest (need time to cook) and it gets the game rolling without the player needing to muster up Charisma they may not have (but their PC does). I've done this with my Triton Fighter, and we recently fought Dinosaurs so we've been surviving on gourmet dino nuggets.

Food is exactly what my Feylock uses, he's the chef of the party anyways and we are doing a post-apocalypse, so I combine that with some small talk, asking how everyone is holding in there, ect.



Inspiring leader eats up a feat though, I don't think the extra THP gained from it is worth a Cha increase, Moderately Armored, Warcaster, Resilient Con, Luck, or some other Feats I can't think of right now.

Also, if your DM is like mine, or even like me, you're gonna need to RP the first 30-60 seconds of the speech every time you use it. That can get old for some.

It is definitely worth the Cha increase if we are talking about a charisma class, less so for other classes perhaps, but it is stupidly good.

Let's say you take it at level 4, and have only a +3 Cha. You are giving everyone 7 hp. Assuming the Warlock has a +2 Con they have 34 hp by this point. That means you've increased your own hp by 20% at the end of every single rest.

By level 10? You are giving everyone 14 temp hp. Which is about two hits.

But, here is where the ability gets really really tricky.

Inspiring Leader says you spend 10 minutes inspiring up to 6 creatures. Those creatures in particular, cannot benefit from this again until they finish a short rest.

But nothing prevents a different set of six creatures from getting Inspired.

Take an hour, you can inspire 36 people, say, the Town Guards. Whom you just took from 11 hp to 25 hp, more than doubling their health. The temp hp also doesn't go away. of you decide to spend a day inspiring the people of a town, or an army? It just balloons.

Abusing the feat? Maybe. But my Feylock is leading armies and he is either digging trenches or inspiring the troops. and We need all the help we can get.

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, but that feels like a trap to me.

Warlocks have three spells that do Radiant damage, total. The lowest level one being Sickening Radiance at 4th level. And one of those is Wall of Light, which kind of sucks.

Celestial gives you Guiding Bolt, which is great, but by 6th level you are talking 3rd level slots, so it is already 6d6 damage and a rider for advantage, which is pretty good and doesn't really need the buff to damage.


So, with sacred flame, you could deal 1d6 then 2d6 until you hit level 6.

Or, you could take eldritch blast and deal 1d10+cha mod by level 2.

Even at level 6, you are talking save vs nothing on 3d6+cha mod (including hex) as opposed to 2d10+2d6+cha mod twice on Eldritch blast.




It is actually the same story with fire damage too. They only get three fire spells naturally. The expanded list helps by giving Flaming Sphere which can be excellent with the mod bonus, same with Wall of fire, but that is it.

You end up with an entire ability based on giving you a worse version of what you can do with cantrips at level 2, or a small buff to half a dozen spells? Most of which you might not even take.
As a point, Sacred Flame is d8, not a d6. So the per-die discrepancy is one.

Celestial is well suited to avoid the Hex trap. Try Flaming Sphere. At 6, you are rolling 4d6+Cha (save for half, optional splash damage), then 4d6+Cha +2d8+Cha (plus splash). Hex blasting will get you more damage per spell slot, by virtue of duration, but Flaming Sphere does better per round.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm looking specifically at the 6th level ability and whether it is worth it, or if it would be better changed to something else.

Is guiding bolt good? Yes. Does it it need +4 or +5 damage from Cha? No, it is good regardless. And you've been casting it for 5 levels without this boost.

Flaming Sphere good? Maybe, I don't see it used much. Could be good with the boost, but you've been casting it for three levels without the boost, so you had to decide on this pretty early on.

wall of Fire? Very good spell even without the boost.

[...]

And again, since you don't get the damage boost til level 6, you are essentially looking at level 2 and saying "In four levels of play (a large chunk of the game) I could boost Sacred Flame, so I'm not going to boost Eldritch Blast now"

But if you take Agonizing blast, and you only have Guiding Bolt and Wall of Fire (which are excellent spells regardless) are you really excited about a small damage boost to a small subset of spell?

I just think it could be altered into something much more interesting and useful. Or, like I did, just pump it into increasing healing and make this a powerful healing option.

But you're also saying "I have all of these good spells that are getting better, so why should I care about the buff to Sacred Flame?"

It's not about Sacred Flame. Sacred Flame is just compensation for not needing Eldritch Bolt. More than likely, you're not going to be casting either Sacred Flame or Eldritch Bolt.

Put another way, you could cast Hex and Eldritch Bolt, or you could cast Flaming Sphere and Sacred Flame. Fairly comparable damage before level 6. Difference is, the Celestial didn't spend a cantrip to get Sacred Flame. They also didn't spend an Invocation for that level 6 buff.

[Hytheter]

And again, since you don't get the damage boost til level 6, you are essentially looking at level 2 and saying "In four levels of play (a large chunk of the game) I could boost Sacred Flame, so I'm not going to boost Eldritch Blast now"

For what it's worth, you can swap invocations on level ups. If you were so inclined you could rock agonizing blast until level 5 and then rely on Sacred Flame as your cantrip from 6 onwards to free up the invocation for something else.

[Chaosmancer]

As a point, Sacred Flame is d8, not a d6. So the per-die discrepancy is one.

Celestial is well suited to avoid the Hex trap. Try Flaming Sphere. At 6, you are rolling 4d6+Cha (save for half, optional splash damage), then 4d6+Cha +2d8+Cha (plus splash). Hex blasting will get you more damage per spell slot, by virtue of duration, but Flaming Sphere does better per round.

Ah, I knew I should have double checked the spell description. So few clerics ever use Sacred Flame since Toll of the Dead came out that I forget.

That does make it much closer.

But, we are still behind Eldritch blast if we assume all hits land. 4d6+2d10+(Cha x2). With optional splash damage. And past level 11, Eldritxh blast clearly pulls away.



For what it's worth, you can swap invocations on level ups. If you were so inclined you could rock agonizing blast until level 5 and then rely on Sacred Flame as your cantrip from 6 onwards to free up the invocation for something else.

I thought about this, but I still have not come across a tactical spread of numbers where Sacred Flame +Cha is clearly superior to EB + Cha. Once I have Agonizing Blast, I can't find the incentive to drop it and focus on a weaker ability.



But you're also saying "I have all of these good spells that are getting better, so why should I care about the buff to Sacred Flame?"

It's not about Sacred Flame. Sacred Flame is just compensation for not needing Eldritch Bolt. More than likely, you're not going to be casting either Sacred Flame or Eldritch Bolt.

Put another way, you could cast Hex and Eldritch Bolt, or you could cast Flaming Sphere and Sacred Flame. Fairly comparable damage before level 6. Difference is, the Celestial didn't spend a cantrip to get Sacred Flame. They also didn't spend an Invocation for that level 6 buff.

Sacred Flame is not compensation for not needing Eldritch Blast. Warlocks have other great attack cantrips. Toll of the Dead, Chill Touch, Booming Blade (for your Blade-Locks) and Tomelocks can steal any cantrip, including Fire Bolt which would also get the Cha bonus from this level 6 ability.

I'm not saying getting Sacred Flame is bad, heck it is thematic and the few times at-will radiant damage will be useful it will shine. But, I'm looking at the level 6 ability and trying to figure out why it is there.

Warlocks don't get a lot of Fire or Radiant spells, the few they get with this subclass or their own list are already good without this buff. Increasing the damage so you don't "need" to take Agonizing blast is pointless. First of all, you never "need" to take it, Eldritch blast by itself is still more powerful than fire bolt, and wizards make do with that across all schools of magic. It is optimal, but not necessary. But Secondly, by the time you get this at 6th level, you already made that decision about whether or not you wanted to use Agonizing Blast or take other Invocations. You've played a decently long stretch of the game, and if you've been wanting that Cha to damage, then it was simple enough to grab it. And now that you have it, this 6th level buff is... weak.


The more I think about it, the more this is a big problem with the design of the Celestial warlock. I can get the same or better effect of their 6th and 10th level abilities by levels 2 and 4. All I'm missing is some cha damage on my big spells, but if I decided not to take any fire or radiant spells? If instead of Guiding Bolt I took Cause Fear? Then I wouldn't even notice the effect of the level 6 ability.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ah, my bad. I was reading it as "Celestial Warlocks are bad, because their damage is bad"

Not "Celestial Warlock's level 6 feature is bad, because it doesn't really add much that they didn't already have".

But I think it needs to be compared to the other Warlock level 6 features, not the Druid's.

Even if it is a measly +4-+5 bonus damage, that's still doing what you're doing even better. Fact is, 5e is limited on Action Economy, and a lot of the features you'll gain are circumstantial. There's a very real possibility that you'll get something that only ever comes up once every two sessions.

Consider that the Champion's +5% crit chance is worth less value than a simple +1 to hit. Tacking on +4-+5 damage to something you were already going to do guarantees that you're doing it better. Heck, you're basically a specialist in zoning by that point, as you chase enemies down with Flaming Sphere, surround them in Fire Wall, and cancel out their cover with your cantrip.

It does kinda force a specific playstyle, I definitely can agree with that, but I'd also say the same of Hexblade (which basically requires you to either use weapons or the single most commonly referenced cantrip in the game).

Personally, I'd be happy with the 3 semi-required spells that you're stuck with, as that's a lot more interesting than the Hexblade's (Eldritch Blast, Darkness, Shield)

[Hytheter]

I thought about this, but I still have not come across a tactical spread of numbers where Sacred Flame +Cha is clearly superior to EB + Cha. Once I have Agonizing Blast, I can't find the incentive to drop it and focus on a weaker ability.

The important point isn't whether Sacred Flame is superior but that you free up the invocation for something other than attacking with cantrips.

[Dork_Forge]

Warlocks don't get a lot of Fire or Radiant spells, the few they get with this subclass or their own list are already good without this buff. Increasing the damage so you don't "need" to take Agonizing blast is pointless. First of all, you never "need" to take it, Eldritch blast by itself is still more powerful than fire bolt, and wizards make do with that across all schools of magic. It is optimal, but not necessary. But Secondly, by the time you get this at 6th level, you already made that decision about whether or not you wanted to use Agonizing Blast or take other Invocations. You've played a decently long stretch of the game, and if you've been wanting that Cha to damage, then it was simple enough to grab it. And now that you have it, this 6th level buff is... weak.


The more I think about it, the more this is a big problem with the design of the Celestial warlock. I can get the same or better effect of their 6th and 10th level abilities by levels 2 and 4. All I'm missing is some cha damage on my big spells, but if I decided not to take any fire or radiant spells? If instead of Guiding Bolt I took Cause Fear? Then I wouldn't even notice the effect of the level 6 ability.

For spells of 1st level or above you're essentially getting to upcast them a step further for free, the notion that a damage buff 'isn't needed' is a bit odd, especially when a Warlock gets so few castings that they want to get the most out of every spell, surely the more damage the better. In general it's not an oh my god fantastic ability, but 6th level abilities on the Warlock rarely are unless they're limited to once per rest, and this at least packages a resistance (even if an uncommon one) as well. A Celestial Bladelock using Booming Blade is doing a respectable amount of damage (with the flexibility to decide which target gets the bonus damage.

Sacred Flame getting a bump also means you have a decent way of targetting Dex saves at will regardless of cover, that combined with a freed up invocation (even if you took it up until this point, you can just change the invocation on level up)

Inspiring Leader is a good feat, but it's a feat not a class feature: Besides being optional it also pushes your Cha maxing back until level 12 (unless you just want to play a variant human) and seeing how every single ability for the Celestial involves the Cha modifier that isn't the best of ideas. (it also has the very minor benefit of just working, no 10 minute time required) and something worth noting I think: The 10th level ability can work with Inspiring Leader. Now your entire party can walk into every encounter with 10+ temp hp.

[Joe the Rat]

Ah, I knew I should have double checked the spell description. So few clerics ever use Sacred Flame since Toll of the Dead came out that I forget.

That does make it much closer.

But, we are still behind Eldritch blast if we assume all hits land. 4d6+2d10+(Cha x2). With optional splash damage. And past level 11, Eldritxh blast clearly pulls away.

Yeah, EB will generally outshine, the feature makes SF more viable, particularly in conjunction with other fire/radiant effects. As Hytheter points out, one benefit is freeing Invocations for other uses - trading some base damage for utility.

(In my case, it's also a matter of being able to remove attack rolls from base strategy - When you have Sunlight Sensitivity, and the party insists on daytime action, a reliable save-based offense has its benefits.)

[Chaosmancer]

Ah, my bad. I was reading it as "Celestial Warlocks are bad, because their damage is bad"

Not "Celestial Warlock's level 6 feature is bad, because it doesn't really add much that they didn't already have".

But I think it needs to be compared to the other Warlock level 6 features, not the Druid's.

Even if it is a measly +4-+5 bonus damage, that's still doing what you're doing even better. Fact is, 5e is limited on Action Economy, and a lot of the features you'll gain are circumstantial. There's a very real possibility that you'll get something that only ever comes up once every two sessions.

Consider that the Champion's +5% crit chance is worth less value than a simple +1 to hit. Tacking on +4-+5 damage to something you were already going to do guarantees that you're doing it better. Heck, you're basically a specialist in zoning by that point, as you chase enemies down with Flaming Sphere, surround them in Fire Wall, and cancel out their cover with your cantrip.

It does kinda force a specific playstyle, I definitely can agree with that, but I'd also say the same of Hexblade (which basically requires you to either use weapons or the single most commonly referenced cantrip in the game).

Personally, I'd be happy with the 3 semi-required spells that you're stuck with, as that's a lot more interesting than the Hexblade's (Eldritch Blast, Darkness, Shield)

Yeah, in my most recent rewrite of the warlock, I gave Hex Warrior to the Blade pact and focused them more on cursing and hexing targets.

But, I don't want to compare the level 6 of Celestial to druids, that was only for their very similar dice pool healing. Comparing their level 6 to other warlocks... isn't good.

Hexblade? Summoning a minion to fight for you
Fiend? +1d10 to a check or save to turn a failure into a success
Fey? Teleport and invisible as a reaction to taking damage

The only one potentially worse is the Goo, which is their shield, giving disadvantage on an attack against them, then gaining advantage if that attack missed.




The important point isn't whether Sacred Flame is superior but that you free up the invocation for something other than attacking with cantrips.

Which is only true if A) You never took Agonizing Blast in the first place (in which case the level 6 ability never helped you, because dealing damage with cantrips was never your point) or B) You give up a superior cantrip combo for an inferior cantrip combo, by swapping agonizing blast out at level 6 to get something else.

So, you are only freeing up an invocation if you decide to weaken your character.



For spells of 1st level or above you're essentially getting to upcast them a step further for free, the notion that a damage buff 'isn't needed' is a bit odd, especially when a Warlock gets so few castings that they want to get the most out of every spell, surely the more damage the better. In general it's not an oh my god fantastic ability, but 6th level abilities on the Warlock rarely are unless they're limited to once per rest, and this at least packages a resistance (even if an uncommon one) as well. A Celestial Bladelock using Booming Blade is doing a respectable amount of damage (with the flexibility to decide which target gets the bonus damage.

Do you mean Green Flame Blade? Because Booming Blade gets no boosts here. Also, waiting until level 6 for your combo to come online isn't great

I also talk about the other abilities up above. All the Warlock level 6 abilities are limited by short rest, making all of them very good (except GOO).


Sacred Flame getting a bump also means you have a decent way of targetting Dex saves at will regardless of cover, that combined with a freed up invocation (even if you took it up until this point, you can just change the invocation on level up)

Just getting sacred flame does the first part. It always targets dex and ignores cover

And, again, if I decided that increasing my cantrip damage was worth an invocation, why would I weaken myself to get something else at level 6? It doesn't actually free up a slot unless Sacred Flame + Cha is equal to EB + Cha, which it is not, no matter how you slice it.

Also, since people were pointing out Flaming Sphere, while it plus sacred flame with this level 6 ability looks nice, what is preventing us from using it with Agonizing blast and EB? Which, is still far better.


Inspiring Leader is a good feat, but it's a feat not a class feature: Besides being optional it also pushes your Cha maxing back until level 12 (unless you just want to play a variant human) and seeing how every single ability for the Celestial involves the Cha modifier that isn't the best of ideas. (it also has the very minor benefit of just working, no 10 minute time required) and something worth noting I think: The 10th level ability can work with Inspiring Leader. Now your entire party can walk into every encounter with 10+ temp hp.

I'm ignoring the Cha maxing, because that is a whole other kettle of fish.

And sure, the feat takes 10 minutes.
The class ability takes an hour, because it always requires a rest first.

Also, they do not stack. Temp HP never stacks, you only take the highest value. So, the 10th level ability gives your warlock (level + cha mod). Inspiring Leader gives (level + Cha mod). That is equivalent.

The party? Well, 10th level gives them (1/2 level + Cha mod). The Feat though still gives them (level + cha mod). The feat is superior and supersedes the ability.

So, the feat I took at 4th level overwrites my entire 10th level ability. Or 1st level if I play variant human. That is problematic.

I wanted to play a Celestial Warlock Variant Human for the campaign that I ended up making a Feylock for. I specifically wanted Inspiring Leader because we were going into the game with no healers, and I knew the temp hp would be a life saver (and it has). The moment I realized that taking my idea and optimal build meant I was canceling my own abilities? I dropped Celestial immediately. Beyond level 1 it really offers nothing at all that is valuable, until you get all the way to level 14.

In fact, just to prove this for a second. We have four members of our party. We just hit level 8 (which means my celestial wouldn't even have the temp hp yet if I decided to wait and not take the feat). I give everyone in the party 12 temp hp every short rest. That is 48 points of damage prevention across the party. If I had to heal that via the Celestial's d6 healing (which is a great ability) I would need to spend about 14 dice... I would have 9.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Yeah, in my most recent rewrite of the warlock, I gave Hex Warrior to the Blade pact and focused them more on cursing and hexing targets.

But, I don't want to compare the level 6 of Celestial to druids, that was only for their very similar dice pool healing. Comparing their level 6 to other warlocks... isn't good.

Hexblade? Summoning a minion to fight for you
Fiend? +1d10 to a check or save to turn a failure into a success
Fey? Teleport and invisible as a reaction to taking damage

The only one potentially worse is the Goo, which is their shield, giving disadvantage on an attack against them, then gaining advantage if that attack missed.





Which is only true if A) You never took Agonizing Blast in the first place (in which case the level 6 ability never helped you, because dealing damage with cantrips was never your point) or B) You give up a superior cantrip combo for an inferior cantrip combo, by swapping agonizing blast out at level 6 to get something else.

So, you are only freeing up an invocation if you decide to weaken your character.




Do you mean Green Flame Blade? Because Booming Blade gets no boosts here. Also, waiting until level 6 for your combo to come online isn't great

I also talk about the other abilities up above. All the Warlock level 6 abilities are limited by short rest, making all of them very good (except GOO).



Just getting sacred flame does the first part. It always targets dex and ignores cover

And, again, if I decided that increasing my cantrip damage was worth an invocation, why would I weaken myself to get something else at level 6? It doesn't actually free up a slot unless Sacred Flame + Cha is equal to EB + Cha, which it is not, no matter how you slice it.

Also, since people were pointing out Flaming Sphere, while it plus sacred flame with this level 6 ability looks nice, what is preventing us from using it with Agonizing blast and EB? Which, is still far better.



I'm ignoring the Cha maxing, because that is a whole other kettle of fish.

And sure, the feat takes 10 minutes.
The class ability takes an hour, because it always requires a rest first.

Also, they do not stack. Temp HP never stacks, you only take the highest value. So, the 10th level ability gives your warlock (level + cha mod). Inspiring Leader gives (level + Cha mod). That is equivalent.

The party? Well, 10th level gives them (1/2 level + Cha mod). The Feat though still gives them (level + cha mod). The feat is superior and supersedes the ability.

So, the feat I took at 4th level overwrites my entire 10th level ability. Or 1st level if I play variant human. That is problematic.

I wanted to play a Celestial Warlock Variant Human for the campaign that I ended up making a Feylock for. I specifically wanted Inspiring Leader because we were going into the game with no healers, and I knew the temp hp would be a life saver (and it has). The moment I realized that taking my idea and optimal build meant I was canceling my own abilities? I dropped Celestial immediately. Beyond level 1 it really offers nothing at all that is valuable, until you get all the way to level 14.

In fact, just to prove this for a second. We have four members of our party. We just hit level 8 (which means my celestial wouldn't even have the temp hp yet if I decided to wait and not take the feat). I give everyone in the party 12 temp hp every short rest. That is 48 points of damage prevention across the party. If I had to heal that via the Celestial's d6 healing (which is a great ability) I would need to spend about 14 dice... I would have 9.

A couple of points:

1) Dealing damage with cantrips can be "not your point" but the damage boost is still appreciated. In fact, if you're not going Agonizing EB to begin with, I'd say the damage is even more appreciated, because it's shoring up a weakness (spammable damage). There is no either/or with at-will damage, where either you're fully optimizing to squeeze out every last point, or you don't care at all and so won't appreciate a boost to Sacred Flame and/or GFB (and/or Fire Bolt if you have it from Tome or whatever). Throughout most of a Warlock's career, invocations are going to be a scarce resource, and freeing one (or more) up while still dealing decent (not optimal) damage is great for everyone except those trying to maximize at-will damage.

2) Inspiring Leader is awesome, but it's actually even better than you give it credit for. You don't need to use it right at the end of a short/long rest, but instead get to choose when you use it, assuming you can find 10 minutes. There's nothing stopping you from getting THP from Celestial Resistance (or another source), and then after your first battle when that's wearing thin, giving new THP via Inspiring Leader. It's a gamble if you think there might be only one fight this rest, or if you think you won't have 10 minutes to spare unless you could've taken a short rest anyways, but in an attrition campaign it's definitely better to have both, and maybe a third source of THP on top of that.

[Chaosmancer]

2) Inspiring Leader is awesome, but it's actually even better than you give it credit for. You don't need to use it right at the end of a short/long rest, but instead get to choose when you use it, assuming you can find 10 minutes. There's nothing stopping you from getting THP from Celestial Resistance (or another source), and then after your first battle when that's wearing thin, giving new THP via Inspiring Leader. It's a gamble if you think there might be only one fight this rest, or if you think you won't have 10 minutes to spare unless you could've taken a short rest anyways, but in an attrition campaign it's definitely better to have both, and maybe a third source of THP on top of that.

Sure, but the chance to stop for ten minutes and not take a short rest can be hard to find, but yes, you could have both and just use Inspiring leader later.

The problem somewhat being, the one you are using second is the stronger one

[Dork_Forge]

Do you mean Green Flame Blade? Because Booming Blade gets no boosts here. Also, waiting until level 6 for your combo to come online isn't great

I did, sorry summer heat is melting my brain today.


I also talk about the other abilities up above. All the Warlock level 6 abilities are limited by short rest, making all of them very good (except GOO).

Hexblade is once per long rest and dependent on you getting a killing blow on a humanoid to get a minon for the day, personally that's a bit too out of my hands to be a good ability and minionmancy could easily not be in sync with the character.

Undying is also long rest based and not very good overall (I know the Undying isn't a good patron, but it's still an official patron).

So out of 6 patrons 3 are short rest, 2 are long rest and 1 is always on. Seeing as the Warlock chassis is short rest based to begin with, I like having an always on ability to rely on.


Just getting sacred flame does the first part. It always targets dex and ignores cover

Yes and as far as damage goes it's far from the best option for cantrips, buffing it's damage with a flat number instead of a die is a pretty good buff and makes it more viable.


And, again, if I decided that increasing my cantrip damage was worth an invocation, why would I weaken myself to get something else at level 6? It doesn't actually free up a slot unless Sacred Flame + Cha is equal to EB + Cha, which it is not, no matter how you slice it.

There's lots of good and fun invocations, a Warlock up until that point might feel like they need Agonizing Blast, then they get the damage bump and can feel like they don't need to do the stereotypical Warlock thing anymore. Is it strictly better than EB, no and you don't need to choose, but it's giving you options and the most optimised thing is not always what people want to do (I say this currently playing a Celestial Warlock with a Fighter dip, i solely engage in melee and didn't even take EB).

Also at 6th level EB: 19avg if both hit GFB (Rapier w/+3 Dex): 16 primary and 8.5 auto hit secondary (if another enemy within 5ft). You can not use EB/AB and still do good damage with cantrips.

Also, since people were pointing out Flaming Sphere, while it plus sacred flame with this level 6 ability looks nice, what is preventing us from using it with Agonizing blast and EB? Which, is still far better.




I'm ignoring the Cha maxing, because that is a whole other kettle of fish.

You can ignore it, but it's especially relevant for Celestials because it affects everything they do (spell attack mod, DC, amount of Healing Light at once, bonus to damage, temp hp, Searing Vengeance Damage).


And sure, the feat takes 10 minutes.
The class ability takes an hour, because it always requires a rest first.

I meant that the feat has a specific time cost where as the tenth level ability just works at the end of a rest.


Also, they do not stack. Temp HP never stacks, you only take the highest value. So, the 10th level ability gives your warlock (level + cha mod). Inspiring Leader gives (level + Cha mod). That is equivalent.

The party? Well, 10th level gives them (1/2 level + Cha mod). The Feat though still gives them (level + cha mod). The feat is superior and supersedes the ability.

So, the feat I took at 4th level overwrites my entire 10th level ability. Or 1st level if I play variant human. That is problematic.

I didn't mean that the temp hp stacks, but the abilities do. You use IL up until 10th level, then you use the 10th level temp hp for the first encounter every rest and after that encounter you give everyone a pep talk and top them up again. They aren't redundant, they can work alongside each other to negate even more temp hp through out the day.

(Celestial Resilience might also work with Cat Nap, but I'm not sure)


I wanted to play a Celestial Warlock Variant Human for the campaign that I ended up making a Feylock for. I specifically wanted Inspiring Leader because we were going into the game with no healers, and I knew the temp hp would be a life saver (and it has). The moment I realized that taking my idea and optimal build meant I was canceling my own abilities? I dropped Celestial immediately. Beyond level 1 it really offers nothing at all that is valuable, until you get all the way to level 14.

So you were going into a game without healers and decided to drop a healing patron for a non healing patron because you didn't think the level 10 ability was worth it? I'm sorry but that makes very little sense to me:

-You already said that Healing Light is a great ability and it scales with Warlock level and Cha mod

-Celestial gets access to Cure Wounds, which since it's auto upcast and they have short rest slots, is pretty valuable especially when you have no other healers

-Inspiring Leader and Celestial Resilience can work together as discussed


In fact, just to prove this for a second. We have four members of our party. We just hit level 8 (which means my celestial wouldn't even have the temp hp yet if I decided to wait and not take the feat). I give everyone in the party 12 temp hp every short rest. That is 48 points of damage prevention across the party. If I had to heal that via the Celestial's d6 healing (which is a great ability) I would need to spend about 14 dice... I would have 9.

You're not really proving anything here, you jumped ship when you didn't have to. If you had stuck Celestial you still could have Inpsiring Leader and could have access to real healing as well. Changing your patron did nothing for party health besides take available healing to zero.

It's also a little false to say Inspiring Leader mitigates 48 damage across the party whereas you'd need x amount of Healing Light dice to do the same. Nothing says the party actually took that much damage or even needed the healing, if they ended up a bit down overall before a rest then it doesn't really matter. Just because you can make so much temp hp doesn't mean you need to match it with healing, especially when you can have both.

[Satori01]

So as to the question posed in the thread title....No, as granting a Temp HP boost to Healing Light will often conflict with the Temp HP granted by the 10th level ability.

As for the points raised by Chaosmancer:

1) 6th level, would appear to be the earliest, the system typically allows one to add an ability modifier to a spell’s damage roll.

(the Agonizing Blast Invocation is an outlier vis a vis the point above).

In terms of multi-classing cheese, one could stack the Cel-lock Radiant Soul power with the Elemental Affinity (Fire) of a DragSorc...presuming multiple damage dice are rolled.

Flame blade, via Druid, or Paladin Smite spells also can benefit.

2) Celestial Resilience activates upon resting. The Inspiring Leader feat requires 10 minutes to use, between rests.
So if granting Temp HP is what you are striving to do, then having both Celestial Resilience AND the Inspiring Leader feat is viable.

The Elemental Adept feat is probably a better choice for a Cel-lock.
A Cel-lock is also an excellent target for a Catnap spell.

Now that said, I feel, Chaosmancer’s point about the standard EB modus operandi, being a superior option from a DPS standpoint.

I’m now, frankly, intrigued by the notation of how to make a Cel-Lock into a Temp HP tank. Pact of the Tome can yield a Cel-Lock the Radiant Word Cantrip, for front line Radiant damage.

The Fiendish Vigor Invocation allows for maintaining personal Temp HP. Thematically a dip into the Paladin class, (perhaps Oath of Redemption), could help.

The problem is an Artillerist Artificer with the Protector Arcane Cannon, can do this more consistently and with better action economy.

[Dork_Forge]

The problem is an Artillerist Artificer with the Protector Arcane Cannon, can do this more consistently and with better action economy.

There's no one really better at dishing out temp hp than an Artillerist using the Protector option (it's too good imo, I'm surprised it made it to print) but if they decide to use that they're significantly hampering their own damage output.

You mentioned mixing Dragon Sorc with Celestial Warlock, it's MAD but Artillerist's Arcane Firearm would also work and give access to Firebolt for 3d10+1d8+Cha at the level it comes online. 23-26 average damage at will isn't bad at all for a non EB/AB user.

[Chaosmancer]

So you were going into a game without healers and decided to drop a healing patron for a non healing patron because you didn't think the level 10 ability was worth it? I'm sorry but that makes very little sense to me:

-You already said that Healing Light is a great ability and it scales with Warlock level and Cha mod

-Celestial gets access to Cure Wounds, which since it's auto upcast and they have short rest slots, is pretty valuable especially when you have no other healers

-Inspiring Leader and Celestial Resilience can work together as discussed

You're not really proving anything here, you jumped ship when you didn't have to. If you had stuck Celestial you still could have Inpsiring Leader and could have access to real healing as well. Changing your patron did nothing for party health besides take available healing to zero.

It's also a little false to say Inspiring Leader mitigates 48 damage across the party whereas you'd need x amount of Healing Light dice to do the same. Nothing says the party actually took that much damage or even needed the healing, if they ended up a bit down overall before a rest then it doesn't really matter. Just because you can make so much temp hp doesn't mean you need to match it with healing, especially when you can have both.

I am cutting a lot of this, because I am very tired, just checking up on posts.

I didn't take healing to zero, I ended up also being the person who brews potions for the party, so I'm still the source of all healing.

And, since I'm still 8th level, I would say I've made the correct decision. Inspiring Leader and my potions have been plenty to keep the party in excellent health.

With the temp hp though, I want to point out, that with only 3 to 4 party members, everyone takes damage pretty consistently. I'm the backline fighter (agonizing Eldritch Blast being my combat so I've been able to focus my spells and invocations of some great RP and utility) and I've still taken quite a bit of damage over the game.

[Satori01]

There's no one really better at dishing out temp hp than an Artillerist using the Protector option (it's too good imo, I'm surprised it made it to print) but if they decide to use that they're significantly hampering their own damage output.


In aggregate terms, you are absolutely correct. In real life terms, 9 Temp HP being granted each round (assuming 20 Int which is not hard to have with the Mark of Making), outweighs the 9 average damage the Assault Cannons grant.

The synergistic impact of taking reduced, or as I have experienced in play, no damage, due to a constant buffer of Temp HP..means no spell slot resources being expended on healing, no actions being expended on administering healing potions, no need to expend healing potions, a significant reduction in feeling like the group needs to SR that unfortunate adventuring constraints prohibit resting, etc, etc.

The 9 points of damage can lead to overkill....(monster has 1HP, you do 12 points of damage). Being on the receiving end of Underkill, via Temp Hp never feels like a problem as a player, does it? 😁

Chaosmancer, (unless I am mistaken), has also played an Artillerist to a bit past 5th level.

Chaos, would you be willing to describe how your Warlock build feels different from your Artillerist?

(If I am mistaken in my recollections, please accept my apologies)

[Dork_Forge]

In aggregate terms, you are absolutely correct. In real life terms, 9 Temp HP being granted each round (assuming 20 Int which is not hard to have with the Mark of Making), outweighs the 9 average damage the Assault Cannons grant.

The synergistic impact of taking reduced, or as I have experienced in play, no damage, due to a constant buffer of Temp HP..means no spell slot resources being expended on healing, no actions being expended on administering healing potions, no need to expend healing potions, a significant reduction in feeling like the group needs to SR that unfortunate adventuring constraints prohibit resting, etc, etc.

The 9 points of damage can lead to overkill....(monster has 1HP, you do 12 points of damage). Being on the receiving end of Underkill, via Temp Hp never feels like a problem as a player, does it? 😁

Chaosmancer, (unless I am mistaken), has also played an Artillerist to a bit past 5th level.

Chaos, would you be willing to describe how your Warlock build feels different from your Artillerist?

(If I am mistaken in my recollections, please accept my apologies)

It's obviously situational based on the type of turret and the number of enemies, but 9 average damage for the turret is the low end. A flamethrower with multiple enemies is easily going to surpass that and unlike the protector, the damage turrets get a bump (an additional 1d8 (4.5avg). If the game goes high enough to get two turrets you can have the best of both worlds, but you are missing out on 13.5 damage a turn at that point. Situational and a lot of the time the crazy amounts of temp hp from the protector turret will be best (unless your party already has their own sources of temp hp) but it isn't always the best choice, especially against a heavy hitting enemy.

[Chaosmancer]

Chaosmancer, (unless I am mistaken), has also played an Artillerist to a bit past 5th level.

Chaos, would you be willing to describe how your Warlock build feels different from your Artillerist?

(If I am mistaken in my recollections, please accept my apologies)

You would be right.

It is a little difficult to compare them, because of the circumstances involved.

The Feylock I'm playing is in a much more geopolitical campaign, with fewer combats. The Artillerist was in a short run of Mad Mage, where we had dozens of combats a rest.

So, both feel/felt very powerful in their respective arenas.

My feylock has actually gone out to rally the town guard, granting temp hp to large numbers of NPCs to help make sure they survive the large scale conflicts ahead. He really is giving a decent sized, single, boost to their survivabilty, which refreshes each short rest. I have even established with the DM, that my character (being the quartermaster and best chef in the ruins of our city) inspires the entire town every morning, by serving breakfast and chatting with everyone


However, the Isnpiring Leader buff would never have let us survive the Mad Mage like my artillerist did. We again were playing in a group with no healers, and my Artillerist took the Healer feat. But, I was dishing out between 7 and 10 temp hp every round, almost every fight.

I actually used the force ballista once, just because I wanted to see it in action, and abandoned it to never summon again after that, because we lived or died based on my ability to reduce the incoming damage in fight, after fight, after fight.

To give an idea. I think we started at 5th level, and descended into the first level of the dungeon. We took maybe two short rests the entire first floor. We had nearly a dozen combat encounters back to back, and I think only one person ever dropped to zero that entire floor. Also, for the back line people (or the turret itself) who rarely got targeted? What that meant was they tended to have the maximum temp hp I could grant, because they would get take the highest value every time, and eventually I rolled max and they kept that.

So, if you are having strings of combat encounters, where you can use the protector near constantly for that hour duration. Nothing is more powerful in terms of damage prevention.