Hypothetical: what set of stats would you pick and what would you do with them?

[MaxWilson]

Just for fun hypothetical inspired by some idle die-rolling during quarantine:

You're starting a game at 8th level with four players. It's going to be a combat-heavy Combat As Sport-ish dungeoneering campaign with two to four Deadly encounters per long rest, in a Mythic Underworld-style dungeon*** with monsters, traps, antimagic zones, secret doors, treasure, teleportation gates, etc.

The DM's rules for stat rolling are: for N players, roll N sets of stats as a group, then figure out between yourselves which PC gets which stats and who plays that PC.

Your group rolls up these arrays:

#1 [Awesome SAD] 18, 16, 14, 11, 10, 10
#2 [Awesome MAD] 17, 15, 17, 15, 17, 15
#3 [Exactly standard] 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
#4 18, 4, 6, 6, 3, 6

Question #1: Given your personality, what set of stats would you gravitate towards and what would you do with them?

Question #2: If you're the most experienced player in the group and everyone is asking you for advice on how to be effective and unique, what builds would you recommend for the other three players in the party, using what stats?

In a Mythic Underworld, as opposed to Gygaxian Naturalism, the dungeon doesn't feel obligated to make sense or to explain how all of these monsters and treasure and antimagic zones got there in the first place, and the dungeon is uniquely hostile to adventurers, e.g. monsters can go through doors automatically but adventurers have to make Strength checks to open any door.

Note that a Mythic Underworld dungeon doesn't necessarily imply an entire Mythic Underworld [I]campaign. You could have a Combat As War-ish campaign with a Mythic Underworld dungeon embedded in it, e.g. a famous malevolent haunted house with a reputation akin to Room 1408 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1408_(film)), or a Tower of Time where reality is broken and you find yourself in other times and places a la Quantum Leap, struggling to get back to your original timeline.

One reason you might do this is if you want players to be able to opt into a very gamist, balanced-between-classes mode of play for some things, especially high-level play, but you also want roleplaying and social adventurers and actual storylines. The Mythic Underworld can be a place where adventurers go to gain power to use back in the real world.

So into the woods you go again
You have to every now and then
Into the woods, no telling when
Be ready for the journey.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Idiot savant bard, max charisma, try to do talking out of fight.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Q1: Well, I've had a very close approximation of #2 (13/18/18/18/18/14 after racials) and I chose to play a Blood Hunter/Wizard, which was at the time a MAD class focused on Wisdom, Intelligence, Dexterity and Constitution.

I would choose those stats again, but use them to play a Redemption Paladin that doesn't have to multiclass Hexblade to keep their supportive and offensive options strong. I normally play Humans, so taking Standard Human here actually makes a lot of sense. I could also instead take Variant Human with +1 Str/+1 Cha and Resilient: Con, I would likely prefer the latter. Max Charisma at 4 and take Inspiring Leader at 8.
(18/15/18/15/15/18)

Q2:
-I would advise #1 to play a Wizard, probably Evocation. Starting at level 8 and with an 18 roll I might suggest Aarakocra so they can be mobile, with Keen Mind at 4 and a +1Int/+1Wis at 8.
(10/16/14/20/12/10)
-I would advise #3 to play a Life or Grave Cleric, leaning Life. Vhuman again (+1Wis/+1Dex) taking Magic Initiate Druid for Goodberry, Druidcraft and Produce Flame, bump Wis to 18 at 4 and take War Caster at 8.
(13/14/14/8/18/10)
-I would advise #4 to play a Moon Druid (shocking), Probably Hill Dwarf with Observant(Wis) and Healer.
(6/6/8/3/20/4)

Sadly, even though I might be the most experienced in my own group, I don't think I'm very creative when it comes to applying stats or making the Idiot Savant effective outside of Moon Druid.

[Angelalex242]

For the Idiot Savant Moon Druid...

I'd actually recommend Str 3, Dex 4, con 6, int 6, wis 18 cha 6

The idea is, we want the Moon Druid to be sentient, not an animal that wildshapes into a human sometimes.

Though reversing it like that has some unique RP opportunities...

[Lavaeolus]

Sadly, even though I might be the most experienced in my own group, I don't think I'm very creative when it comes to applying stats or making the Idiot Savant effective outside of Moon Druid.

So, the more SAD we can get, the better here. Discounting Moon Druid, a ranged Rogue is one of the simpler routes: you use DEX to attack, use DEX as your primary defense, and being able to Hide + Uncanny Dodge can mitigate your low HP -- to an extent. All the low ability scores still hurt, though, and you'll probably want to use your ASIs to boost up your terrible CON. Put Expertise in Perception, most likely.

Alternatively, I could suggest a Hill Dwarf Life Cleric. You get proficiency in heavy armor, letting you dump DEX without compromising your AC too much; you don't need STR to avoid the heavy armor speed penalty; you start with a much-needed bump to your 6 CON. Focus on casting, raise your CON when you get the chance. You could pick up Shillelagh with the Magic Initiate feat, but losing the ASI hurts.

[MaxWilson]

I think I would offer to take the Idiot Savant array, because I can use those stats effectively whereas someone else might have a bad experience with them. Since it's a combat-heavy game and I'm going to have garbage-tier Con, that smells like a sickly spellcaster to me (from a roleplaying stereotype perspective I mean), and after some thinking I believe I'd make it that guy a:

Idiot Savant: Human [Tough] Necromancer 7/Artificer 1
Str 8 (6) Dex 4 Con 7 (6) Int 18 Wis 6 Cha 3 AC 20 (plate armor) HP 36 [Tough, Heavily Armored]

Those stats just scream "scrawny, odious, arrogant, sickly megalomaniac-in-training" to me, and Necromancer is both thematically appropriate and mechanically effective.

Use Longstrider and Phantom Steed to offset low movement speed where possible, aiming for Resilient (Con) at Necr 8 (level 9), which will let me get an actual positive HP modifier. : ) I plan on doing a lot of Dodging while my bonus action does the damage, and later on I'll set up a Contingency (Cure Wounds) to heal me whenever I hit zero HP. Sanctuary from the Artificer spell list will help a lot, and so will Shield.

Since we know antimagic zones are going to be a thing in this dungeon, I want at least one Fighter in this party, and since I'm supplying a bunch of zombie/skeleton meat shields that Fighter should be an archer, so Awesome MAD should be an Eldritch Knight 8 (for defense and to enchant his own weapons if necessary).

Exactly Standard can be a Jorasco halfling Hexblade 2/Life Cleric 1/Divine Soul 5 with Extended Metamagic for nigh-unlimited healing and good control, and Mounted Combatant feat to work around his own low Strength, and so that if I Polymorph myself into a T-Rex or something he can ride on my back to protect me and my concentration. Otherwise he can ride a donkey or a mastiff.

As for Awesome MAD... Paladins are kind of MAD, but also great to have around in CAS games for saving throw bonuses. (In CAW games you'd rather avoid making saves in the first place but in CAS it's unavoidable.) Awesome MAD can be a Paladin, and Changelings are fun for RP so let's make him a Changeling. Having another warrior in the group will also help in antimagic zones and against beholders, and give him some warlock levels for ranged capability.

Awesome SAD: Wood Elf Eldritch Knight 8
Str 10 Dex 20 (18) Con 16 Int 14 Wis 12 (11) Cha 10 AC 18 (Mage Armor) or 20 (Mage Armor + shield) HP 76 [Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, Defensive Duelist]

Exactly Standard: Jorasco Halfling Divine Soul 5/Hexblade 2/Life Cleric 1
Str 8 Dex 14 (12) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 (13) Cha 15 AC 20 HP 53 [Mounted Combatant; Agonizing Repelling Blast; Extended Spell and Quickened Spell]

Awesome MAD: Changeling Paladin of Devotion 6/Celestial Warlock 2
Str 17 Dex 15 Con 17 Int 15 Wis 15 Cha 20 (17) AC 20 HP 76 [Inspiring Leader; Agonizing Repelling Blast]

I would enjoy playing in this group but I can honestly say that my Sickly Necromancer/Idiot Savant is the PC I'd be most eager to play, especially if the halfling and I can coordinate our T-Rex act.

[Pex]

I'd be advocating for everyone to use array #1 because I don't think array #3 would work well in this game and array #4 is garbage. If it's a given the dungeon will be hard and powerful then everyone using array #2 go nuts is fine. Sometimes you just want to play a party of Superman. I've played such games as one shots. They are fun. If it's a more serious game then array #1 is fine.

If it's tough luck too bad all four arrays must be used I'd consider not playing. The discrepancy is too much despite Moon Druid. If it's a one shot we're good friends I might play for friendship sake, but I could still pass. If someone volunteers for the bad arrays and they can make it work hooray for them, but I know from experience those low numbers will hurt the party. I am an unapologetic optimizer. I don't need everyone else to do as I do, but I do want basic competency. The math of the game matters. If it was the first three arrays only I'd lean more to playing. The third array is 5E standard, so it'll work even if poor in comparison to the other two. The fourth array is a deal breaker.

[MaxWilson]

If it's tough luck too bad all four arrays must be used I'd consider not playing. The discrepancy is too much despite Moon Druid.

This is the case--no array can be used more than once. Part of the point is to see how much advantage Awesome SAD and Awesome MAD actually have once a complete party is built. Is Idiot Savant really garbage, and does Awesome MAD really get much use out of those extra 15s? It's a poll of how people use their stats.

[Lunali]

I would have argued against the stat selection method both before and after the arrays were rolled as it's one of the worst methods for determining stats I've seen in that it will both create a disparity in power and cause aggravation between the players. In fact, I would probably seriously consider not playing in the campaign because of the apparent attitude of the DM.

If I were going to play, my choice would depend on who I was playing with. I would tend towards taking #1 for MAD character, #3 for SAD character, or #4 if I felt I was the best choice for dealing with those stats. For #4 the 'correct' choice would be a moon druid, but I would probably play a ranged physical type, probably rogue or ranger.

[OldTrees1]

So there are going to be 4 PCs and each must have a different one of those 4 options?
And I am picking first?

Q1:
#3 for me. I don't need as high a primary stat as many advocate for, so I would leave #1 and #2 for other players. However none of my character concepts are SAD enough (especially RP wise) for #4.

Q2:
I would ask them which has a concept that could handle #4 (probably a caster like Cleric) because #1 and #2 can be used by any character.

[MaxWilson]

OldTrees, really, none of your concepts are SAD enough RP-wise for #4? Ignoring physical stats for a moment, because they don't really affect RP, I feel like weak common sense, weak social skills, and sky-high book smarts fits any number of popular tropes (Big Bang Theory, Revenge of the Nerds) and real-world people, especially sterotypes of exactly the kind of people who play D&D.

There's probably at least one person reading this thread who could model themselves pretty well with IdiotSavant. I mean, in addition to me. :-P

[CTurbo]

The Idiot Savant's stats are TOO bad IMO. Probably need to be something like-

18, 8, 8, 7, 6, 5

[ShinyRocks]

I would gravitate to the SAD or MAD arrays, just because more stats = more choices. But they both give so many options I wouldn't know to do. Awesome MAD would be fantastic for some ideas I have, but would fit more into a more RP-heavy campaign. (For example, the Rogue who was a cold-reading fake fortune teller, with expertise in Insight and Deception, and really wants high Dex, Wis, Cha and Int, and everyone wants high Con. The only thing they don't really need is Str.)

But I'd be totally willing to take the Idiot Savant stats to let the rest of the table have fun. I can only think of one player at my table that would be able to pilot a character with those stats.

Idiot Savant could be a Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric to take shillelagh and rely on Wisdom for everything, but they're still risky on the front line. I'd maybe do a Phoenix Sorcerer. Just rely on Charisma, set everything on fire, and pop back up when you inevitably get taken to 0 because your stats are horrible.

But I think I'd go for an Air Genasi Samurai Fighter. +1 to Dex and +2 to Con means a starting array of:

Str 3
Dex 19
Con 8
Int 6
Wis 6
Cha 4

Archery fighting style, or Close Quarters Shooter if it's allowed. Stand at the back. Shoot things. Levitate and shoot things if the ceiling is high enough. Close Quarters means you can shoot things even if they get close. Alternatively, Mariner would give you +1 to AC and a climbing and swimming speed, which may or may not be useful.

Resilient (Dex) at 4 to take Dex to 20. Boost Con at 6 and Wis at 8 so you get:

Str 3
Dex 20
Con 10
Int 6
Wis 8
Cha 4

Proficiency in Str, Con, Dex and Wis saves means you have -1, +3, +8 and +2 respectively to saving throws - bonuses to all the important ones. +8 to hit (or +10 with Archery or +9 with Close Quarters) and at-will advantage means you should be pretty good at your one job of shooting things.

17 AC with studded leather (18 with Mariner) makes you hard-ish to hit. Maybe you can get some magic studded leather. Maybe you can get some gloves of strength.

A Druid would probably be more useful, but if I was using that array, I'd have a lot more fun with a mysterious, sullen 'You point, I shoot' half-genie. Let the people with the good stats be useful, I'm doing my one job.

[OldTrees1]

OldTrees, really, none of your concepts are SAD enough RP-wise for #4? Ignoring physical stats for a moment, because they don't really affect RP, I feel like weak common sense, weak social skills, and sky-high book smarts fits any number of popular tropes (Big Bang Theory, Revenge of the Nerds) and real-world people, especially sterotypes of exactly the kind of people who play D&D.

There's probably at least one person reading this thread who could model themselves pretty well with IdiotSavant. I mean, in addition to me. :-P

Yes. The closest character concept (shortest summary being "frail necromancer") had at least 2 average ability scores. (Str 4-, Con 6-, Dex 6-, Int 10+, Wis 10+, Cha 16+).

It is not that I can't imagine those stats, it is that I don't have a character concept for them. (and character concepts go a lot deeper than just ability scores)

PS: Physical stats do affect RP, which might factor into your surprise. (Not enough to touch upon your example but, very relevant to the frail necromancer)

[da newt]

I'd grab the LOW stats, and create a heroic zealot barbarian Orc (20 ST, 6 DX, 7 CON, 4 IN, 3 WI, 4 CH) with GWM and +2 CON for 9. He'd know he was the chosen one, his conviction will protect him, and therefor he'd charge every foe head on reckless and swinging for the moon - the ultimate face shield. Throw him in Scale Mail for an AC of 12, set him to "frappe" and see how long he lasts. Then bury him with honors, and roll up a new PC that compliments the party.

[MaxWilson]

Yes. The closest character concept (shortest summary being "frail necromancer") had at least 2 average ability scores. (Str 4-, Con 6-, Dex 6-, Int 10+, Wis 10+, Cha 16+).

It is not that I can't imagine those stats, it is that I don't have a character concept for them. (and character concepts go a lot deeper than just ability scores)

PS: Physical stats do affect RP, which might factor into your surprise. (Not enough to touch upon your example but, very relevant to the frail necromancer)

Ah, got it. You have a library of specific personas and builds already in mind, and none of them happen to match those stats. Fair enough.


I'd grab the LOW stats, and create a heroic zealot barbarian Orc (20 ST, 6 DX, 7 CON, 4 IN, 3 WI, 4 CH) with GWM and +2 CON for 9. He'd know he was the chosen one, his conviction will protect him, and therefor he'd charge every foe head on reckless and swinging for the moon - the ultimate face shield. Throw him in Scale Mail for an AC of 12, set him to "frappe" and see how long he lasts. Then bury him with honors, and roll up a new PC that compliments the party.

Heh. Zealots being zealots, he might last for a long, long time. :-) I'd like to watch that play out. What would you advise for the rest of the party?


The Idiot Savant's stats are TOO bad IMO. Probably need to be something like-

18, 8, 8, 7, 6, 5

Hypothetically, how would that change your build for Idiot Savant?

[KorvinStarmast]

[Awesome MAD] 17, 15, 17, 15, 17, 15 That's a Shadow monk I want to play. Probably vHuman.
feat = Athlete

1. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
2. When you are prone, standing up uses only 5 feet of your movement.
3. Climbing doesn’t cost you extra movement.
4. You can make a running long jump or a running high jump after moving only 5 feet on foot, rather than 10 feet.
Result: S 18 D 18 C 15 I 15 W 18 Ch 15. (I wanna jump!)
Background: Sailor
Proficiencies: Athl, Perc, Stealth, Insight
Extra Proficiency: Medicine

Awesome MAD Half Elf Paladin, Ancients.
S 18 D 11 C 16 I 10 W 12 Cha 16

[KorvinStarmast]

Shouldn't that be S 18? You have three 17s.

I never noticed before that Athlete actually has four bullets. Has that bit about climbing speed always been there? [Checks errata] Oh, I see, it's new.

Yes, I will fix that. Don't recall if prodigy gives a +1, but I might take that for expertise instead .... will not play idiot savant since a negative con mod is ''against my religion" in 5e. :smallcool:

[Willie the Duck]

I think I would offer to take the Idiot Savant array, because I can use those stats effectively whereas someone else might have a bad experience with them.
Therein lies a real question -- how much more experienced am I than the rest of the group? If I don't trust anyone else to use this effectively, I would feel compelled to take this one, regardless of my personality. However, if I trusted someone else to take this on effectively...


Part of the point is to see how much advantage Awesome SAD and Awesome MAD actually have once a complete party is built. Is Idiot Savant really garbage, and does Awesome MAD really get much use out of those extra 15s? It's a poll of how people use their stats.

I would take Awesome MAD, and get quite a bit of use out of those 15s. I would go normal human Rogue or Lore Bard (possibly with dips into each other and ex. Knowledge Cleric to pick up more expertise-level skills), and focus on having a solid skill check for all the skills that might come up (and also being able to open stuck doors without help most of the time). In an bone fide funhouse dungeon crawl, where the solution to a given problem may well come down to someone being able to walk across a greased 8" wide beam to get to the (in)conveniently placed trap-disarming lever, having ~+9 or more on most every skill by L6 would be solid. Mind you, part of this is because I decidedly suspect that I would have no trouble finding someone else in the group who wants to play a moon druid, batman wizard, and some variation of combat-situation-solver.

To help clarify the scenario, how plausible are short rests in-dungeon?

[MaxWilson]

Therein lies a real question -- how much more experienced am I than the rest of the group? If I don't trust anyone else to use this effectively, I would feel compelled to take this one, regardless of my personality. However, if I trusted someone else to take this on effectively...

I would take Awesome MAD, and get quite a bit of use out of those 15s. I would go normal human Rogue or Lore Bard (possibly with dips into each other and ex. Knowledge Cleric to pick up more expertise-level skills), and focus on having a solid skill check for all the skills that might come up (and also being able to open stuck doors without help most of the time). In an bone fide funhouse dungeon crawl, where the solution to a given problem may well come down to someone being able to walk across a greased 8" wide beam to get to the (in)conveniently placed trap-disarming lever, having ~+9 or more on most every skill by L6 would be solid. Mind you, part of this is because I decidedly suspect that I would have no trouble finding someone else in the group who wants to play a moon druid, batman wizard, and some variation of combat-situation-solver.

To help clarify the scenario, how plausible are short rests in-dungeon?

(1) RE: how experienced is the rest of the group. Make whatever assumptions you think are the most interesting, state them for the record, and proceed with your analysis, exactly as you did.

(2) RE: how plausible are short rests in-dungeon, the hypothetical DM responds, "Resting is possible inside the dungeon at the risk of wandering monsters (frequency and strength depends on location), but you gain no XP from wandering monsters. Yes, it's [gaining no XP is] unfair and maybe unreasonable, but that's how this particular mythic underworld works."

P.S. The DM also adds, "by the way, unlike Wall of Force which is explicitly immune to all damage, Leomund's Tiny Hut is not indestructible in this mythic underworld. It's a force construct like Bigby's hand, and it's about as durable as a real wooden hut."

[Willie the Duck]

(2) RE: how plausible are short rests in-dungeon, the hypothetical DM responds, "Resting is possible inside the dungeon at the risk of wandering monsters (frequency and strength depends on location), but you gain no XP from wandering monsters. Yes, it's unfair and maybe unreasonable, but that's how this particular mythic underworld works."

P.S. The DM also adds, "by the way, unlike Wall of Force which is explicitly immune to all damage, Leomund's Tiny Hut is not indestructible in this mythic underworld. It's a force construct like Bigby's hand, and it's about as durable as a real wooden hut."

Alright, excellent starting point.

Short rests are possible, and depending on group, something for which to strive (preferably by using non-major resource consuming methods -- ritual casting Alarm if possible, but also mundane help from caltrops/ball bearings/non-magical grease set up, bells on trip lines, watching down corridors with surreptitious mirrors, carpenter's tools to turn dungeon-detritus into makeshift walls or Czech hedgehogs, the whole old-school arsenal).

Still, best be prepared for few short rests, and minimizing necessary usage of long rest abilities. In that case, possibly valor bard instead to increase durability/reduce healing need (and also because there's less likelihood of getting 3xcha modifier on inspiration after Bardic Inspiration, so the slightly-more-useful Lore bard version isn't as tempting). First feat (particularly if single-classing it) might be Magic Initiate (Guidance, Spare the Dying, Bless; Guidance, Mold Earth, Longstrider; or Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Find Familiar) to increase at-will utility.

[MaxWilson]

Alright, excellent starting point.

Short rests are possible, and depending on group, something for which to strive (preferably by using non-major resource consuming methods -- ritual casting Alarm if possible, but also mundane help from caltrops/ball bearings/non-magical grease set up, bells on trip lines, watching down corridors with surreptitious mirrors, carpenter's tools to turn dungeon-detritus into makeshift walls or Czech hedgehogs, the whole old-school arsenal).

Still, best be prepared for few short rests, and minimizing necessary usage of long rest abilities. In that case, possibly valor bard instead to increase durability/reduce healing need (and also because there's less likelihood of getting 3xcha modifier on inspiration after Bardic Inspiration, so the slightly-more-useful Lore bard version isn't as tempting). First feat (particularly if single-classing it) might be Magic Initiate (Guidance, Spare the Dying, Bless; Guidance, Mold Earth, Longstrider; or Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Find Familiar) to increase at-will utility.

Can you explain this part in bold? I didn't quite get what you mean by it. In this hypothetical I would actually expect short rests to be relatively plentiful compared to long rests, especially if you e.g. trade a Rope Trick for a short rest in an arbitrary location. Theoretically you could build a Warlock 3/Artificer 5 or something with unlimited short rests (each short rest pays for its own Rope Trick with one 2nd level spell slot left over), but getting a long rest will probably require finding a "safe" location where wandering monsters are rare. If other party members have short rest abilities like Bardic Inspiration, the party could be a short-rest powerhouse.

[Willie the Duck]

Can you explain this part in bold? I didn't quite get what you mean by it. In this hypothetical I would actually expect short rests to be relatively plentiful compared to long rests, especially if you e.g. trade a Rope Trick for a short rest in an arbitrary location. Theoretically you could build a Warlock 3/Artificer 5 or something with unlimited short rests (each short rest pays for its own Rope Trick with one 2nd level spell slot left over), but getting a long rest will probably require finding a "safe" location where wandering monsters are rare. If other party members have short rest abilities like Bardic Inspiration, the party could be a short-rest powerhouse.

I see. I misconstrued your meaning, in that case. "Unfair and maybe unreasonable" implied to me that actually going for the short rests might be a losing proposition.

If short rests are instead quite possible, that indeed substantially changes things. I tend to favor Cutting Words over Combat Inspiration, so lore bard has a weight on the scales in its favor, as does pushing for level 6 and font of inspiration ASAP. Feats like Healer and Inspiring leader, plus a single HD spent each SR (along with song of rest) make healing relatively abundant.

Alternative option, although one without the massive skill support, would be Ludic's Celestial Generalist (first listed build on this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds) thread) who is a nice mix of at-will abilities, SR abilities (like any warlock), and the odd LR-one (healing light and Mystic Arcanum spells).

[MaxWilson]

I see. I misconstrued your meaning, in that case. "Unfair and maybe unreasonable" implied to me that actually going for the short rests might be a losing proposition.

Yeah, I meant "unfair and maybe unreasonable that you not get XP that you 'earned' by killing those wandering monsters."


If short rests are instead quite possible, that indeed substantially changes things. I tend to favor Cutting Words over Combat Inspiration, so lore bard has a weight on the scales in its favor, as does pushing for level 6 and font of inspiration ASAP. Feats like Healer and Inspiring leader, plus a single HD spent each SR (along with song of rest) make healing relatively abundant.

Alternative option, although one without the massive skill support, would be Ludic's Celestial Generalist (first listed build on this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds) thread) who is a nice mix of at-will abilities, SR abilities (like any warlock), and the odd LR-one (healing light and Mystic Arcanum spells).

Interesting. It's not clear to me that you actually NEED MAD stats to pull that one off. Looks pretty SAD frankly.

[Willie the Duck]

Interesting. It's not clear to me that you actually NEED MAD stats to pull that one off. Looks pretty SAD frankly.

Oops, yeah, lost the scope of the discussion. That was just another idea for what to play in this dungeon. It wouldn't need (or frankly show off) MAD stats very well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Myself: Triton Paladin (Conquest) with #2, 18 in Str, Con, and Cha, all others are 15.

The group:
#1 Kobold Rogue, Str 9, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 14 or 10, Wis 10 or 14, Cha 10
#3 Hill Dwarf Cleric (Grave or Forge or Order), Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.
#4 Hobgoblin Wizard, 19 Int with Str 4 and Cha 3, pick up Moderately Armored.

[Whit]

#2 rogue cleric. Hide, stealth climb dash find disarm traps, create food water Sanctuary Get out of dodge.

[Pex]

This is the case--no array can be used more than once. Part of the point is to see how much advantage Awesome SAD and Awesome MAD actually have once a complete party is built. Is Idiot Savant really garbage, and does Awesome MAD really get much use out of those extra 15s? It's a poll of how people use their stats.

That's fine. In my take of this hypothetical game I get stopped at the premise. The math of the game matters to me. While obviously I haven't played a real game with someone having an array like #4, I have played in games where players put low numbers in stats their class needs and the high ones where they don't, though not the lowest and highest respectively, and dumped CO. Their lack of competence was significant in the game.

[MaxWilson]

Based on this thread, it looks like you could wind up with a party like:

[Awesome SAD] Celestial Generalist (played by Willie The Duck)
[Awesome MAD] Triton Conquest Paladin (played by Biffoniacus_Furiou)
[Exactly Standard] Something (played by OldTrees1)
[Idiot Savant] Air Genasi Samurai (played by ShinyRocks)

Alternately,

[Awesome SAD] Something (played by Pex edit: or wait, maybe not, based on Pex's most recent post)
[Awesome MAD] Shadow Monk (played by Korvin Starmast)
[Exactly Standard] Jorasco Divine Lifelock (played by Max Wilson)
[Idiot Savant] "The Chosen One" Half-orc Zealot Barb (played by da newt)

I normally find standard array quite boring but in the context of this party I'd be perfectly happy to just play the Divine Lifelock who keeps Revivifying + healing the Zealot Barb whenever he dies, which might or might not be often, while riding around on my big mastiff blasting enemies into hazards with my Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast.

Apologies to anyone whom I overlooked--I couldn't make enough full parties for everyone, because there aren't enough takers for Exactly Standard and Awesome SAD, though there are plenty of Idiot Savant/Awesome MAD takers.

It's not at all obvious to me that the guys with multiple high stats are going to be the ones having the most fun or the most impact, even in a combat-heavy dungeoncrawl. It's kind of interesting though to see so few people interested in Awesome SAD or Exactly Standard.

Edit: @Pex, I'm interested in your take as a skeptic. Do you view the Zealot Barb and Air Genasi as "not competent" to such an extent that you'd refuse to play in this party? It seems to me that the combination of Zealot (48 HP + Rage + no-cost Revivify) + Revivify halfling mitigates the downsides of the Zealot's low stats to such an extent that it wouldn't be a serious issue in play, but I think you would disagree, correct?

[CTurbo]

#4 - A 499 year old Mountain Dwarf War Cleric bound to a wheel chair. He's extra cranky, and he's not really stupid... his Int score is reflective of his forgetfulness. His Cha score is reflective of his poor hygiene and terrible people skills. Tough + Warcaster
8 Str, 3 Dex, 8 Con, 6 Int, 18 Wis, 4 Cha


#3 - Warforged Champion Fighter hired to push #4 around. Probably has the Healer feat and maybe Ritual Caster Wizard?
18 Str, 13 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha


#2 - Mountain Dwarf Zealot Barbarian. Great-grandson of #4. GWM + Res(Wis) and makes his Gramps proud.
20 Str, 14 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha


#1 Human Devotion Paladin 6/Bard 2. Hard core LG. So good at everything it just makes you want to punch him in the face, but he'd probably kick your butt while accosting you the whole time.
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 18, 16 Int, 16 Wis, 18 Cha

[MaxWilson]

#4 - A 499 year old Mountain Dwarf War Cleric bound to a wheel chair. He's extra cranky, and he's not really stupid... his Int score is reflective of his forgetfulness. His Cha score is reflective of his poor hygiene and terrible people skills. Tough + Warcaster
8 Str, 3 Dex, 8 Con, 6 Int, 18 Wis, 4 Cha


#3 - Warforged Champion Fighter hired to push #4 around. Probably has the Healer feat and maybe Ritual Caster Wizard?
18 Str, 13 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha


#2 - Mountain Dwarf Zealot Barbarian. Great-grandson of #4. GWM + Res(Wis) and makes his Gramps proud.
20 Str, 14 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha


#1 Human Devotion Paladin 6/Bard 2. Hard core LG. So good at everything it just makes you want to punch him in the face, but he'd probably kick your butt while accosting you the whole time.
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 18, 16 Int, 16 Wis, 18 Cha

I love the interconnections between #2, #3, and #4. Nice use of Dex 3 to build character traits! Sounds like a fun party.

[Pex]

Edit: @Pex, I'm interested in your take as a skeptic. Do you view the Zealot Barb and Air Genasi as "not competent" to such an extent that you'd refuse to play in this party? It seems to me that the combination of Zealot (48 HP + Rage + no-cost Revivify) + Revivify halfling mitigates the downsides of the Zealot's low stats to such an extent that it wouldn't be a serious issue in play, but I think you would disagree, correct?

It's their defense. They have none. They're failing saving throws. They have no hit points. The party loses their actions fast. Even array #2 can fail a saving throw, but they are failing more often at a fast rate. Zealot gets free resurrections, but that doesn't change we lose his turns because he drops in round 2. Half damage from the orc's great axe. Full damage from the Fireball. Maybe they do nothing for the combat because they can't get out of a Hold Person or Phantasmal Force. Everyone can suffer these problems, but they're doing so at a greater rate. We lose their actions and more resources need to be spent to heal them/remove afflictions.

[Nifft]

#4 - A 499 year old Mountain Dwarf War Cleric bound to a wheel chair. He's extra cranky, and he's not really stupid... his Int score is reflective of his forgetfulness. His Cha score is reflective of his poor hygiene and terrible people skills. Tough + Warcaster
8 Str, 3 Dex, 8 Con, 6 Int, 18 Wis, 4 Cha


#3 - Warforged Champion Fighter hired to push #4 around. Probably has the Healer feat and maybe Ritual Caster Wizard?
18 Str, 13 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha


#2 - Mountain Dwarf Zealot Barbarian. Great-grandson of #4. GWM + Res(Wis) and makes his Gramps proud.
20 Str, 14 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha


#1 Human Devotion Paladin 6/Bard 2. Hard core LG. So good at everything it just makes you want to punch him in the face, but he'd probably kick your butt while accosting you the whole time.
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 18, 16 Int, 16 Wis, 18 Cha

Almost perfect.

Make the human paladin an Oath of Ancients.

When people ask why he's with the group, he just glances at #4 and says, "My Oath."

[da newt]

For the weak sauce Zealot - the pick of the LUCKY feat was meant to help reduce the saving throw vulnerability - but yes, it's just a matter of time before he "Leroy Jenkins" himself to death, at which point you get to celebrate his heroically short life and role another PC with decent stats for the long term.

As the Zealot idiot hero, I'd do everything I could to disrupt the DM's well laid plans with the goal of driving them to want to end his existence and ponder whether their evil plan to hamstring the party with a PC with such crap stats was really a good idea ... all the while, I'd really enjoy causing havoc and chaos while giggling like an idiot.

Everyone loves and remembers the one good guy who died too young.

[MaxWilson]

As the Zealot idiot hero, I'd do everything I could to disrupt the DM's well laid plans with the goal of driving them to want to end his existence and ponder whether their evil plan to hamstring the party with a PC with such crap stats was really a good idea ... all the while, I'd really enjoy causing havoc and chaos while giggling like an idiot.

Are you planning to be disruptive in a deliberately annoying fashion (attacking random NPCs, getting the party arrested, etc.), or am I misunderstanding your intentions? That sounds more likely to anger the other players than the DM. Maybe I'm getting the wrong idea, but the impression I get from your latest post is that instead of "roll up another PC" you may need to "find another group" and let someone else play Idiot Savant Zealot instead, because honestly it sounds potentially like a fun character to play or play alongside.

But not if the player is deliberately being a passive-aggressive jerk.

[Amechra]

I'd probably grab Awesome MAD and play a Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Monk (Kensei) 8 - grab Orcish Fury for the +1 Strength and use my other ASI to bump Dexterity and Wisdom, for a final set of Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 15). Because the stats to get this kind of thing to work are harsh, so why not take the chance? But that's just assuming that someone else doesn't have a better idea for the combination.

Honestly, I think this could be an interesting premise for a game - maybe use point-buy to make four different arrays and go from there?

[da newt]

"Are you planning to be disruptive in a deliberately annoying fashion (attacking random NPCs, getting the party arrested, etc.), or am I misunderstanding your intentions? That sounds more likely to anger the other players than the DM. Maybe I'm getting the wrong idea, but the impression I get from your latest post is that instead of "roll up another PC" you may need to "find another group" and let someone else play Idiot Savant Zealot instead, because honestly it sounds potentially like a fun character to play or play alongside."

Not exactly - I'd aim for 'disruptive in a deliberately amusing fashion' while making the DM re-evaluate their sinister ploy to hamstring one of their players. A tongue and cheek 'suck it' DM - I'm having fun and helping this party succeed despite your completely arbitrary ability score shenanigans.

What does it say about any DM who would inflict this mess upon their party long term? It's not a serious or 'fair' game - it's an experiment. It may be time for the party to find a new DM ...

But as a thought experiment or a not so serious / short game - it could be a hoot, interesting distraction or challenge.

Chuck the Zealot would have apprenticed w/ a black smith where he excelled at hitting things with a hammer really hard over and over again and developing prodigious strength. One day Chuck came to the realization that he was the chosen of GOD - a super hero of sorts, so he created armor (black smith's apron covered in horse shoes - aka scale mail), fashioned a cape (he is a super hero), grabbed the biggest hammer (maul) and a bunch of javelins (but the javelins didn't work right for him, so he pounded them into solid oblate spheroid shapes and they work much better for him now). Then he set out to find an adventuring party to right all of the world's wrongs with him.

He is proficient in Animal Handling, Athletics, Deception (if someone tells him a lie, he believes it and repeats it with such conviction that he can pass any polygraph), and Intimidation. He loves animals (sometimes too hard).

Chuck has trouble grasping the concept of time beyond now, before, soon and later. He cannot remember anyone's name and calls them something descriptive (shorty, elf girl, boss). He is a combat savant - in every encounter he knows who the biggest threat is, and concentrates on taking them out first. Chuck will do anything to protect his party. He will always put himself between the threat and others. Sometimes he could use some help figuring out who to bash, but he trusts his party explicitly so if they point him - he will go 110%. He doesn't register pain normally - he will never ask for healing or whine about hardships or injury. He'd walk miles on a broken ankle if no one noticed and made him stop.