Thought Experiment

[thereaper]

Let us posit that, at the bottom of the ocean there is an area where the Weave is torn, preventing magic from working, as described in the PHB (with Sage Advice rules of what constitutes "magic"). The zone is arbitrarily wide, such that no creature that needs to breathe air can traverse it. The zone also extends into the earth an equal distance. In the middle of this is a giant structure of worked stone. It has one passageway that fits a tiny creature. The passageway is filled with water, until it suddenly makes a 90 degree turn upwards into an air pocket (necessitating climbing or flight to progress, as well as the ability to survive without water). At the top is another passageway going horizontal again, which passes through several sharp corners until it reaches a dead end, where a Demilich rests.

A 20th level Adventuring Party needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly. How can they do so?

Relevant Issues:

- Magic is off, so magical attacks, summons, and magical charms are impossible (even Wish arguably doesn't work)
- Any PC small enough to traverse the passageways cannot breathe water
- Creatures must be able to survive in and out of water
- Demiliches are immune to nonmagical attacks, as well as necrotic damage
- There are very few creatures that can burrow through worked stone
- I haven't yet been able to find a nonmagical means of charming a creature

[Segev]

Not to be cheeky, but is the demilich somehow outside of this magical dead zone, and yet still 100% surrounded by it?

[thereaper]

Not to be cheeky, but is the demilich somehow outside of this magical dead zone, and yet still 100% surrounded by it?

No, the Demilich is in the magical dead zone. Note, however, that only Energy Drain and Vile Curse are affected by it. The Demilich is still fully capable of defending itself.

[nickl_2000]

Level 20 party consisting of

Moon Druid
Warforged Monk
Sorcerer/Wizard
Paladin

Whatever else you like.


Warforged Monk PC climb into bag of holding. Moon Druid shifts into a tiny creature that can breath in the water and sends bag into the pocket dimension. Moon Druid goes into air pocket area, shifting into a different creature and having the bag of holding fall out of the pocket dimension into the PC world and opens the bag.

Don't like the bag of holding idea? Moon Druid sneaks in swimming and grabs a rock or other object from the air pocket and swims back out. Hands object to Wizard/Sorcerer who teleports the party into it without any issues due to having an object from there.



Now Moon Druid and Monks attacks are both considered magical for the sake of bypassing resistances. Monk stunlocking it as soon as possible. With flurry of blows and level 20 they will likely burn through the legendary resistance pretty quickly. Both Moon Druid and Monk then proceed to wail on said demilich. The party paladin attacks doing nothing, but smites for radiant damage which passes through no problem (smites are not magical).




Nothing here is using magic inside the zone and there is nothing inherently magical about the Moon Druid and Monk attacks.

[Luccan]

Any chance you could link to the Sage Advice definition of magic?

[MoiMagnus]

Whenever you're stretching out the surface of what is magic and what is not, things start to be weird:
+How is the demilich not dying of old age without access to magic to maintain its phylactery or whatever method it uses?
+How is "invulnerability to non-magical attacks" not considered magical, hence disabled?
+Why does the party "needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly", since the demilich is literally trapped into an no-magic zone, which is the place where it can literally do nothing threatening to the remaining of the world, not even communicate a single word?

As for directly answering your questions, here are peace of answers:
1) Magical effects created by artefact and deity usually bypass anti-magic effects of any kind (the way I understand them, they bear their own source of magic within them), so would probably work and be a main source of solution. They are totally under the creative control of the DM, so not really in the control of the PCs. But as a player, that would be my first instinct "Go on a quest to find a MacGuffin that solve the problem."
2) Monk and Moon Druids gets way to deal damages considered as magical for the purpose of bypassing immunity and resistances, but that are not themselves magical. Warlock's pact weapon works too, since the weapon is "created" through ways that are not explicitly magical, is not a magical weapon, but is also considered magical for the purpose of bypassing immunity and resistances.

[KorvinStarmast]

Whenever you're stretching out the surface of what is magic and what is not, things start to be weird:
+How is the demilich not dying of old age without access to magic to maintain its phylactery or whatever method it uses?
+How is "invulnerability to non-magical attacks" not considered magical, hence disabled?
+Why does the party "needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly", since the demilich is literally trapped into an no-magic zone, which is the place where it can literally do nothing threatening to the remaining of the world, not even communicate a single word? Thank you. :smallsmile: (though I do like the solution as proposed by nickl_2000)

[JNAProductions]

I mean, just bring a team of Triton miners with adamantine picks. Brute force your way in.

I'll also echo those who say "Why is this urgent?" The demilich can't do jack diddly.

[Contrast]

Any chance you could link to the Sage Advice definition of magic?

Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) - p18, 'Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?'.

Wild Shaping is described as magical for reference. If you're following those rules I would definitely have a wildshaped druid shift back to their normal form automatically on entering an antimagic area.

Per Antimagic Field teleportation targetted into an antimagic zone also fails.

Edit - having had a look at the demilichs stat block, hire a load of tritons wearing earmuffs to grapple it and stuff it in a sack. Life drain requires it to be able to see, Howl requires hearing, everything else is magic.

Edit2 - hmm forgot about the tiny passage. Revised rangers with frog animal companions perhaps?

[thereaper]

Any chance you could link to the Sage Advice definition of magic?

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/sage-advice-compendium



Level 20 party consisting of

Moon Druid
Warforged Monk
Sorcerer/Wizard
Paladin

Whatever else you like.


Warforged Monk PC climb into bag of holding. Moon Druid shifts into a tiny creature that can breath in the water and sends bag into the pocket dimension. Moon Druid goes into air pocket area, shifting into a different creature and having the bag of holding fall out of the pocket dimension into the PC world and opens the bag.

Don't like the bag of holding idea? Moon Druid sneaks in swimming and grabs a rock or other object from the air pocket and swims back out. Hands object to Wizard/Sorcerer who teleports the party into it without any issues due to having an object from there.



Now Moon Druid and Monks attacks are both considered magical for the sake of bypassing resistances. Monk stunlocking it as soon as possible. With flurry of blows and level 20 they will likely burn through the legendary resistance pretty quickly. Both Moon Druid and Monk then proceed to wail on said demilich. The party paladin attacks doing nothing, but smites for radiant damage which passes through no problem (smites are not magical).




Nothing here is using magic inside the zone and there is nothing inherently magical about the Moon Druid and Monk attacks.

The passageway is tiny all the way through. I apologize if that wasn't clear.

Bag of Holding wouldn't work, because it's a magic item. Wild Shape would be very promising (Air and Water Elementals have save-based effects that inflict bludgeoning damage and therefore bypass immunity to nonmagical attacks), but Wild Shape is explicitly magical.

Crawford has clarified on Twitter that the Monk's ability to bypass resistance to nonmagical resistance does count as magical, which also prevents the Druid or Warlock from being able to bypass it (I think it's nonsensical, but then again, so is Sage Advice in general on this topic).

Divine Smite doesn't work because it's fueled by spell slots. Improved Divine Smite does, but that alone isn't remotely enough to defeat a demilich.

I like the idea of teleporting (a familiar could grab a pebble, for example), but it is dependent on there being a pebble somewhere in there to get. If there is, then a Wizard could repeatedly teleport small-sized Clerics in there (2d8 Divine Strike damage). I'm very doubtful that would be able to overcome the demilich's healing from Life Drain, though.


Whenever you're stretching out the surface of what is magic and what is not, things start to be weird:
+How is the demilich not dying of old age without access to magic to maintain its phylactery or whatever method it uses?
+How is "invulnerability to non-magical attacks" not considered magical, hence disabled?
+Why does the party "needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly", since the demilich is literally trapped into an no-magic zone, which is the place where it can literally do nothing threatening to the remaining of the world, not even communicate a single word?

As for directly answering your questions, here are peace of answers:
1) Magical effects created by artefact and deity usually bypass anti-magic effects of any kind (the way I understand them, they bear their own source of magic within them), so would probably work and be a main source of solution. They are totally under the creative control of the DM, so not really in the control of the PCs. But as a player, that would be my first instinct "Go on a quest to find a MacGuffin that solve the problem."
2) Monk and Moon Druids gets way to deal damages considered as magical for the purpose of bypassing immunity and resistances, but that are not themselves magical. Warlock's pact weapon works too, since the weapon is "created" through ways that are not explicitly magical, is not a magical weapon, but is also considered magical for the purpose of bypassing immunity and resistances.

The Demilich has killed [person], and the PCs have only 24 hours to get him back before his soul is consumed forever. The PCs have been hired by someone with a personal vendetta against the Demilich, and they want results yesterday. If the Demilich is not defeated soon, the prophecy says unspecified horrible things will happen. The Demilich is hoarding the macguffin needed to save the world. Etc, etc.

The rules on what counts as magical for these things are nonsensical, to say the least (I will definitely not be running dead magic zones that way when my PCs meet them). The idea here is to exploit it to the max, and see if it is still possible for PCs to deal with it.

Artifacts could work, if the DM is willing.

I've spent a couple days thinking about this, and the idea I've come up with is for the PCs to somehow convince or coerce a large group of air elementals to go in, grapple the demilich one at a time, pull him out of his cave, and then spam Whirlwind. But, like the artifact idea, it requires the DM to be on board.

[Luccan]

I forget if 5e has rules for squeezing through spaces smaller than yourself. If it does, a team of Grung (Semi-official, I know, but they're Small and can breath underwater) might be able to make their way through the passageway. One or two Barbarians/fighters/paladins* focused on strength might then be able to grapple the demilich, overpower it and drag it back outside the magic zone where yes it's more dangerous but also can be more easily destroyed. Alternatively, Alchemists Fire and Acid vials while remaining within the anti-magic area

*Let's add in a level of rogue for Expertise in Athletics. And for clarification, I just mean any of those classes, I don't mean a multi-class barbarian/fighter/paladin

[heavyfuel]

Here's what I do:

Yes. Nothing. The demilich who somehow got himself in this situation is also now trapped. Without spells and a way to get out, he's completely harmless. He gets to live for the rest his eternal life in a prison

[MrStabby]

Level 10+ cleric with divine intervention might be able to do something.

[OldTrees1]

What can the Demilich do in this circumstance?
If you can reach the Demilich, what prevents you from moving the Demilich to another location?
A shapechanger (Druid) can reach the Demilich, but so can anyone that can break stone over time.

[The Shoeless]

Level 10+ cleric with divine intervention might be able to do something.

Yes. And a 20th level cleric can absolutely do something with or without Divine Intervention. If the Gods somehow can't slay the Lich directly (or repair the Weave or teleport the party directly to the Lich, or free the soul or steal the McGuffin) a team of 20th level clerics can create an absolutely astonishing amount of Holy Water (which, while created magically, is a mundane item in itself) and equip a grung strike team to absolutely ruin the demiliches day.

If grung are not available, a gang of undying kobold zealot barbarians should do the trick nicely armed with acid flasks, holy water and alchemists fire.

Edit: Also, getting torches into the air pocket is no problem, and a tiny or small 20th level zealot barbarian with a torch will win against a demilich in an antimagic field, although very slowly.

[nickl_2000]

Alright then...

level 20 wizard/warlock/bard casts true polymorph to turn 2 others into Leviathans,. True polymorph isn't affected by anti magic field at all. Then said PCs grapple the other demilich drag it out of the cave where 2 other PCs are dragon turtles who fry the demi lich with their steam breath.

Or all change to leviathans and just kill the demilich with their slam and tail attacks the get +16 to hit and do acid damage to it. Even with life drain it would still drop pretty quickly.


Alternately, just destroy the cave burying the demilich under tons of rock that it doesn't have the magic or strength to get out of. This can be done with slow weapon attacks or true polymorph into a Leviathan for quick results.





Both a breath weapon and previously cast true polymorph are confirmed to work in an anti magic field

[Yakk]

Extracted "is it magical" quote for use here:

Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
• Is it a magic item?
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
• Is it a spell attack?
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
• Does its description say it’s magical?
If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

[Contrast]

True polymorph isn't affected by anti magic field at all.


Spells. Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it.


If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled.

All concentrating on the spell for the hour duration does it remove the need to concentrate on it and change the duration to 'until dispelled'. Its still very much a magic effect and would be suppressed while in an anti-magic field - hell it could be countered by casting Dispel Magic at 3rd level if you rolled well enough. Can you show the confirmation this isn't how it works?

[Tvtyrant]

Befriend several Elsewhales to carry the party, use adamantium picks to break in, the party can hold its breath for 20 times the length of combat. Kill Lich, get back in whale, leave.

[Keravath]

Sage Advice compendium ..

• Is it a magic item?
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
• Is it a spell attack?
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
• Does its description say it’s magical?
If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.


Wild Shape: "Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before."

Wild Shape is considered magical so the moon druid approach won't work.

A demilichs Trap Soul ability would not work in an anti-magic area. Cloud of dust does not work. Energy Drain does not work. Vile Curse does not work.

----

Honestly, the character's best bet might be to nuke it from orbit. :)

Tidal wave, volcano, earthquake - crushing the demi-lich under tons of stone would kill it since falling rock, like falling itself doesn't count as an attack.

In addition, if you read the lore on a demi-lich, they really aren't that impressive and without magic they only have a howl and a life drain attack left. If no one can get into the demi-lich then it can't get out either (which it wouldn't typically want to do anyway, usually being pretty mindless "This "demilich" contains only a fragment of the lich's malevolent life force- just enough so that if it is disturbed, these remains rise into the air and assume a wraithlike form." ... not really much of a threat if buried at the bottom of an ocean.

[thereaper]

True Polymorph is considered magical even after it ends. That doesn't mean that True Polymorph doesn't have a use here, though. I've been combing books looking for a creature with a "nonmagical" means of mind controlling more than humanoids for a while, because that would give much easier access to the abilities of other creatures. So far, I haven't found any.

What book are elsewhales found in?


I forget if 5e has rules for squeezing through spaces smaller than yourself. If it does, a team of Grung (Semi-official, I know, but they're Small and can breath underwater) might be able to make their way through the passageway. One or two Barbarians/fighters/paladins* focused on strength might then be able to grapple the demilich, overpower it and drag it back outside the magic zone where yes it's more dangerous but also can be more easily destroyed. Alternatively, Alchemists Fire and Acid vials while remaining within the anti-magic area

*Let's add in a level of rogue for Expertise in Athletics. And for clarification, I just mean any of those classes, I don't mean a multi-class barbarian/fighter/paladin

5e does indeed allow creatures to squeeze into areas one size category smaller than themselves (and I don't think there are size categories smaller than Tiny, so the demilich can't squeeze itself into a smaller area to avoid this). Grung with the right mundane equipment (is there equipment for scaling worked stone?) could get to the demilich. But is 2d6 damage per turn going to be enough to kill the demilich, given that it will be healing itself with Life Drain? That's the issue with the Grung solution. They could also potentially try to grapple it and pull it out of the cave (their strength is higher than the demilich's), but if the demilich kills its grappler or breaks free, it can move back into position faster than they can pull it away.


Yes. And a 20th level cleric can absolutely do something with or without Divine Intervention. If the Gods somehow can't slay the Lich directly (or repair the Weave or teleport the party directly to the Lich, or free the soul or steal the McGuffin) a team of 20th level clerics can create an absolutely astonishing amount of Holy Water (which, while created magically, is a mundane item in itself) and equip a grung strike team to absolutely ruin the demiliches day.

If grung are not available, a gang of undying kobold zealot barbarians should do the trick nicely armed with acid flasks, holy water and alchemists fire.

Edit: Also, getting torches into the air pocket is no problem, and a tiny or small 20th level zealot barbarian with a torch will win against a demilich in an antimagic field, although very slowly.

Divine Intervention can indeed ignore the magic problem. Are there 8th level cleric and/or domain spells that can change the equation?

[OldTrees1]

In addition, if you read the lore on a demi-lich, they really aren't that impressive and without magic they only have a howl and a life drain attack left. If no one can get into the demi-lich then it can't get out either (which it wouldn't typically want to do anyway, usually being pretty mindless "This "demilich" contains only a fragment of the lich's malevolent life force- just enough so that if it is disturbed, these remains rise into the air and assume a wraithlike form." ... not really much of a threat if buried at the bottom of an ocean.

I forgot, this is 5E. Demiliches are now failed liches rather than advanced liches. This is no Kangaxx we are dealing with. This is a Xykon that starved to death.

A water breather with an adamantine pick and a soundproof bag (soundproof for the howl) is enough. Just supply them with meals and they will capture your demilich.

[Tvtyrant]

Looks like the Elsewhale didn't make it into 5E from AD&D/3.5, that's a shame. Lots of the best monsters never got into 5E (I miss you Eye of the Deep.)

[thereaper]

I forgot, this is 5E. Demiliches are now failed liches rather than advanced liches. This is no Kangaxx we are dealing with. This is a Xykon that lost and finally died.

A water breather with an adamantine pick and a soundproof bag (soundproof for the howl) is enough. Just supply them with meals and they will capture your demilich.

Demiliches can be either one. It depends on if they are a follower of Acererak or not. The particular demilich in this thought experiment is the weaker variety, but it doesn't actually matter, because Trap Soul is magical.

Life Drain isn't magical for the purposes of the dead magic zone.

[Luccan]

5e does indeed allow creatures to squeeze into areas one size category smaller than themselves (and I don't think there are size categories smaller than Tiny, so the demilich can't squeeze itself into a smaller area to avoid this). Grung with the right mundane equipment (is there equipment for scaling worked stone?) could get to the demilich. But is 2d6 damage per turn going to be enough to kill the demilich, given that it will be healing itself with Life Drain? That's the issue with the Grung solution. They could also potentially try to grapple it and pull it out of the cave (their strength is higher than the demilich's), but if the demilich kills its grappler or breaks free, it can move back into position faster than they can pull it away.


They do also have a climb speed, so there's no need to worry about climbing equipment. As far as the Life drain, there's no sure way to avoid it. However, Life Drain requires the demilich to be within 10 feet of the target. Depending on the dimensions of the room and where the Grung launch their attack from, they may be able to stay out of reach. Additionally, Alchemists fire deals only 1d4 damage per turn, but that is until the demilich uses an action to extinguish it. This eats into it's combat effectiveness: it can either pursue and attempt to life drain (which the Grung may very well avoid) or it can waste the action to extinguish itself, therefore not regaining any health. Then presumably you light it up again ASAP. Turns where it's on fire you hit it with the 2d6 Acid

Hmm, checking it Grung only have a 25 foot movement compared to the Demilich's 30. Some rounds may have to be spent dashing. Is there a way to get a 20 Con Barbarian advantage on Con saves without magic? Then it might be worth combining the strategies and locking the Demilich down while your allies hit it with everything they've got.

Edit: you can theoretically counter the healing that way, even if it's attack succeeds, by having enough party members damaging it that it can't heal itself all at once. You'd only need four allies with Acid while one locks it down. The trouble, of course, is the barbarian staying alive

Edit 2: I am approaching this from perspective that anything supernatural won't work. Where do you stand on the effectiveness of Bear Totem in this situation? I figure cutting down the damage even if Life Drain succeeds would be helpful.

[JackPhoenix]

Creatures and Objects. A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere.

A lich is created by an arcane ritual that traps the wizard's soul within a phylactery.

I love a problem that solves itself (a demilich is derived from a lich, and thus created by the same ritual).

[nickl_2000]

All concentrating on the spell for the hour duration does it remove the need to concentrate on it and change the duration to 'until dispelled'. Its still very much a magic effect and would be suppressed while in an anti-magic field - hell it could be countered by casting Dispel Magic at 3rd level if you rolled well enough. Can you show the confirmation this isn't how it works?

Hmm, maybe I was wrong about true polymorph. I thought it was said in the dragon talk episode about anti-magic fields.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP1k2VvUqOQ

By the way, familiars are fine in anti-magic fields.
-Teleporting into anti-magic field doesn't work.
-Spell, Spell attack, or Fueled by spell slot doesn't work in anti-magic fields (paladin's out)
-Spell with duration of "instantaneous" is fine.
-Looks like the "until dispelled" duration changed this to make what I said wrong.
-"Does the work magic or magically appear in the description" if yes then no in anti magic field.
-Wildshape doesn't work
-Monk abilities magical, if they used magic or magically in the ability.
-Stun is fine, sun soul monk bolt is fine
-Dragon's breath is not considered magical
-Magical Summons are suppressed
-Looks like Monk unarmed and Wild Shape magical attack is suppressed



So send in a Grung Sun Soul Monk to squeeze into the hole, grapple the demilich and drag them out (with level 20 they will pass nearly every save). Then await for the army of lower level Water Sun Soul mooks you hired swimming outside the cave to laser beam it to deal

[CorporateSlave]

- Demiliches are immune to nonmagical attacks, as well as necrotic damage


Not quite, per D&D Beyond Demilich stat block:

Damage Resistances: Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Magic Weapons
Damage Immunities: Necrotic, Poison, Psychic; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks

Nonmagical fire, acid, cold, electrical, etc. damage should work just fine.

The simplest (from a mechanical standpoint, perhaps not an in game acquisition standpoint) would be for the PC's to somehow utilize Alien or Futuristic technology (Chapter 9 of DMG), some of which deal Fire (explosives) or Radiant (laser weapons) damage types. These are after all level 20 characters, and probably have significant resources at their disposal (hence the extremely difficult problem). Wish might not work in the anti-magic zone, but a Wish cast outside it might grant access to some non-magical device that would allow them to prevail. (Sure, it might cook a party member in the process, but them the breaks!)

Even cutting edge D&D setting technology might suffice...say a diving bell and a ship with a method to pump large quantities of acid down a flexible tube or pipe. Seal off the pipe into the narrow passage and start pumping in the acid. Won't be cheap, but do they want this thing destroyed or not?

Similarly, perhaps a gnomish tinker in the employ of a cunning and powerful noble somewhere has come up with non-magical, non-living tiny saboteur constructs that don't need to breathe, and can climb vertical surfaces and detonate or release a spray of acid? Should be hard for the demolish to avoid, since the description is the end of the very narrow passage is just a dead end where the demilich sits. Would Howl or Life Drain work on lifeless, non-hearing constructs? They would need to have dozens on hand already to fit the short time frame of course...

[thereaper]

I love a problem that solves itself (a demilich is derived from a lich, and thus created by the same ritual).

Arcane does not necessarily mean magical, in the same way that a dragon's breath is not necessarily magical. It has to fall under the guidelines.


Hmm, maybe I was wrong about true polymorph. I thought it was said in the dragon talk episode about anti-magic fields.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP1k2VvUqOQ

By the way, familiars are fine in anti-magic fields.
-Teleporting into anti-magic field doesn't work.
-Spell, Spell attack, or Fueled by spell slot doesn't work in anti-magic fields (paladin's out)
-Spell with duration of "instantaneous" is fine.
-Looks like the "until dispelled" duration changed this to make what I said wrong.
-"Does the work magic or magically appear in the description" if yes then no in anti magic field.
-Wildshape doesn't work
-Monk abilities magical, if they used magic or magically in the ability.
-Stun is fine, sun soul monk bolt is fine
-Dragon's breath is not considered magical
-Magical Summons are suppressed
-Looks like Monk unarmed and Wild Shape magical attack is suppressed



So send in a Grung Sun Soul Monk to squeeze into the hole, grapple the demilich and drag them out (with level 20 they will pass nearly every save). Then await for the army of lower level Water Sun Soul mooks you hired swimming outside the cave to laser beam it to deal

True Polymorph is one of those things they seem to have changed their mind about over time. Stumbling across that is what got me looking into this in the first place.

Are Grungs able to get PC levels? Volos doesn't have rules for it. Otherwise, the Grung Monk solution looks legit.

Familiars do indeed work. I just haven't found a method for them to contribute here other than pass along intel.

[The Shoeless]

But is 2d6 damage per turn going to be enough to kill the demilich, given that it will be healing itself with Life Drain? That's the issue with the Grung solution.


Well, life drain isn't automatic healing, especially against fighters, barbarians and paladins, which can be expected to have a Con save of +5 to +18 at level 20 without magical effects, and regarding how they can position in the air bubble, there may not be a chance for the demilich to hit more than one target with their life drain.

A 20th level zealot barbarian with a torch will also deal at least 1d6+11 damage (fire and radiant) on a hit against the demilich once per turn (depending on your interpretation of RAW, this can go up to 1d6+15+Str mod), and they can't die during the fight. If the extra damage is dealt on the first attack, follow up with an acid flask or holy water.

A 20th level devotion paladins holy nimbus isn't magical by the above definition. This means 10 guaranteed radiant damage once per round plus 1d8 radiant +1 fire damage per attack up to twice per round.

A 20th level fighter would have a problem with the damage output and survivability though. Up to 4x1 fire damage per action + whatever maneuvers might add in extra damage (+1 damage when dual wielding torches :smallsmile:). But they will likely resist the life drain more than half of the time, so it would not be impossible. The UA throwing weapon fighting style would be very nice with holy water to deal up to 8d6 radiant damage per round, or the dual wielder feat for 4d6 radiant by holy water and then 2 fire damage by torch.



Divine Intervention can indeed ignore the magic problem. Are there 8th level cleric and/or domain spells that can change the equation?


Dunno. Etherealness could be a cool way to get there. But being a grung or water genasi will suffice for that.

A Hallows energy resistance to necrotic/energy vulnerablity to radiant could make it easy for the paladin and zealot and life cleric to slay the creature.

An 8th level Insect Plague would make short work of a demilich, especially if it is peppered with Holy Water and Acid Flasks on the way.

So all in all...


A grung battlemaster fighter (Tavern Brawler feat, Thrown Weapon fighting style and Precision Attack) and a grung cleric go in after the cleric spent 8 hours and 200 gp to create 8 flasks of holy water. The cleric uses the first round to Divine Intervention a Hallow spell, making all creatures vulnerable to radiant damage. The fighter action surges for 8 attacks with +11 to attack + Precision Attack should they miss for a total of 16d6 x 2 damage. That's an ex-demilich.


A grung zealot barbarian and a grung cleric go in. The cleric uses the first round to Divine Intervention in an Insect Plague spell, dealing 7d10 damage per round to the lich. The zealot grapples the demilich to make sure the monster stays in, they themselve not dying while in rage. Should the barbarian die from the lich or the spell damage, they can hit themselves each round until they leave the AM field and receive a free resurrection. This seems a lot funnier to me :smallsmile:

[JackPhoenix]

Arcane does not necessarily mean magical, in the same way that a dragon's breath is not necessarily magical. It has to fall under the guidelines.

And it does, because the Weave sidebar explains what arcane is: "All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding - learned or intuitive - of the workings of the Weave"

"Arcane ritual" available to wizards certainly fits that criteria (and the only official way to get turned into a lich is magical, though it requires some cross-referencing between rules in CoS and DMG). It is really a stretch to say that transforming into a lich is not magical...

Note that AMF (which is the best example we've got for what happens when magic gets turned off) doesn't care if a creature itself is magical or not, only if it is "summoned or created by magic". A perfectly non-magical wolf summoned from a different plane through Gate (just so we use an example of a creature that'll stick around after the summoning spell has ended) will wink out in AMF by RAW, while a dragon (which is explicitly a magical creature per MM description) hatched from an egg in the usual manner that wanders into AMF won't. A zombie is magical, but a zombie created by (instantaneous) Animate Dead or Finger of Death will wink out, while a zombie spawned by a wight won't. It's a mess, but them's the RAW.


Familiars do indeed work. I just haven't found a method for them to contribute here other than pass along intel.

Familiars don't work. They're summoned by a spell.

[Asisreo1]

Let us posit that, at the bottom of the ocean there is an area where the Weave is torn, preventing magic from working, as described in the PHB (with Sage Advice rules of what constitutes "magic"). The zone is arbitrarily wide, such that no creature that needs to breathe air can traverse it. The zone also extends into the earth an equal distance. In the middle of this is a giant structure of worked stone. It has one passageway that fits a tiny creature. The passageway is filled with water, until it suddenly makes a 90 degree turn upwards into an air pocket (necessitating climbing or flight to progress, as well as the ability to survive without water). At the top is another passageway going horizontal again, which passes through several sharp corners until it reaches a dead end, where a Demilich rests.

A 20th level Adventuring Party needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly. How can they do so?

Relevant Issues:

- Magic is off, so magical attacks, summons, and magical charms are impossible (even Wish arguably doesn't work)
- Any PC small enough to traverse the passageways cannot breathe water
- Creatures must be able to survive in and out of water
- Demiliches are immune to nonmagical attacks, as well as necrotic damage
- There are very few creatures that can burrow through worked stone
- I haven't yet been able to find a nonmagical means of charming a creature
Are we saying if there's any means? If that's what you're asking, this is an easy puzzle.

There a section on blessings that says they can mimic any wonderous item. One such blessing that specifically enables this is the Necklace of Adaptation. So, you could call it the Blessing of Adaptation.

Ironically, this would then be a job only the martials can do, since spellcasters loose out on practically every worthwhile option they have. Martials, though, rarely have to worry about magic features.

[MoiMagnus]

I love a problem that solves itself (a demilich is derived from a lich, and thus created by the same ritual).

I was about to say that in my post, but checking on Sage Advice, after the ritual, undeads are not considered magical for the purpose of anti-magic fields. Necromancy is considered as an "instantaneous magic", contrary to conjuring elementals (which would disappear in the field), but similarly to healing someone (which would not lose the arm that was regrown through magic).

[Nagog]

I imagine it would work in the same manner we as average humans would do it: Tritons with a remote controlled bomb. While not neccessarily a "Magical attack", a bomb is near enough to a Fireball and can be packed with even more explosive power to ensure the job gets done.

[MaxWilson]

Let us posit that, at the bottom of the ocean there is an area where the Weave is torn, preventing magic from working, as described in the PHB (with Sage Advice rules of what constitutes "magic"). The zone is arbitrarily wide, such that no creature that needs to breathe air can traverse it. The zone also extends into the earth an equal distance. In the middle of this is a giant structure of worked stone. It has one passageway that fits a tiny creature. The passageway is filled with water, until it suddenly makes a 90 degree turn upwards into an air pocket (necessitating climbing or flight to progress, as well as the ability to survive without water). At the top is another passageway going horizontal again, which passes through several sharp corners until it reaches a dead end, where a Demilich rests.

A 20th level Adventuring Party needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly. How can they do so?

Relevant Issues:

- Magic is off, so magical attacks, summons, and magical charms are impossible (even Wish arguably doesn't work)
- Any PC small enough to traverse the passageways cannot breathe water
- Creatures must be able to survive in and out of water
- Demiliches are immune to nonmagical attacks, as well as necrotic damage
- There are very few creatures that can burrow through worked stone
- I haven't yet been able to find a nonmagical means of charming a creature

Four goblins. For simplicity I'll say they're all Rogue 2/Necromancer 18 with the Mobile feat, Lucky, and Resilient (Con) but the details don't matter.

Two options:

(1) True Polymorph into Atropals, summon arbitrary numbers of Wraiths, have them go fetch the demilich from the deadmagic zone for you (or just kill it with burning oil while you play cards). Doesn't work if the DM rules that undead can still drown.

(2) True Polymorph into an Aboleth long enough to get diseased with water-breathing, then swim to the deadmagic zone and wait for the disease to wear off. Grab the demilich, and either grapple + kill it with burning oil and alchemist's fire or (if the DM rules that undead can drown) drag it to the nearest body of water (or goldfish bowl) and drown it.

[nickl_2000]

Arcane does not necessarily mean magical, in the same way that a dragon's breath is not necessarily magical. It has to fall under the guidelines.



True Polymorph is one of those things they seem to have changed their mind about over time. Stumbling across that is what got me looking into this in the first place.

Are Grungs able to get PC levels? Volos doesn't have rules for it. Otherwise, the Grung Monk solution looks legit.

Familiars do indeed work. I just haven't found a method for them to contribute here other than pass along intel.

Grung are a race that was released by WotC as part of an Extra life campaign. They are on DNDBeyond and part of the One Grung Above Suppliment.

[AdAstra]

- I haven't yet been able to find a nonmagical means of charming a creature

Swashbuckler's 9th level feature, Panache, allows you to charm a nonhostile creature for one minute (with the same "friendly acquaintance" language as Charm Person), with no indication that it's magical in any way. Better yet, since it involves a contested check, the Swash can use Expertise and Reliable talent, and very few creatures have Insight proficiency. A level 9+ Swashbuckler with Persuasion Expertise and 20 charisma can be impossible to beat by anyone with less than a +7 in Insight. There's also no limit to how many times you can do this, so it's not hard to argue that you can keep it up indefinitely so long as you can keep talking to the target.

In addition, nothing would stop a plucky adventuring party from convincing some creatures the old fashioned way, so long as they had a means of communicating.

[thereaper]

Well, life drain isn't automatic healing, especially against fighters, barbarians and paladins, which can be expected to have a Con save of +5 to +18 at level 20 without magical effects, and regarding how they can position in the air bubble, there may not be a chance for the demilich to hit more than one target with their life drain.

A 20th level zealot barbarian with a torch will also deal at least 1d6+11 damage (fire and radiant) on a hit against the demilich once per turn (depending on your interpretation of RAW, this can go up to 1d6+15+Str mod), and they can't die during the fight. If the extra damage is dealt on the first attack, follow up with an acid flask or holy water.

A 20th level devotion paladins holy nimbus isn't magical by the above definition. This means 10 guaranteed radiant damage once per round plus 1d8 radiant +1 fire damage per attack up to twice per round.

A 20th level fighter would have a problem with the damage output and survivability though. Up to 4x1 fire damage per action + whatever maneuvers might add in extra damage (+1 damage when dual wielding torches :smallsmile:). But they will likely resist the life drain more than half of the time, so it would not be impossible. The UA throwing weapon fighting style would be very nice with holy water to deal up to 8d6 radiant damage per round, or the dual wielder feat for 4d6 radiant by holy water and then 2 fire damage by torch.



Dunno. Etherealness could be a cool way to get there. But being a grung or water genasi will suffice for that.

A Hallows energy resistance to necrotic/energy vulnerablity to radiant could make it easy for the paladin and zealot and life cleric to slay the creature.

An 8th level Insect Plague would make short work of a demilich, especially if it is peppered with Holy Water and Acid Flasks on the way.

So all in all...


A grung battlemaster fighter (Tavern Brawler feat, Thrown Weapon fighting style and Precision Attack) and a grung cleric go in after the cleric spent 8 hours and 200 gp to create 8 flasks of holy water. The cleric uses the first round to Divine Intervention a Hallow spell, making all creatures vulnerable to radiant damage. The fighter action surges for 8 attacks with +11 to attack + Precision Attack should they miss for a total of 16d6 x 2 damage. That's an ex-demilich.


A grung zealot barbarian and a grung cleric go in. The cleric uses the first round to Divine Intervention in an Insect Plague spell, dealing 7d10 damage per round to the lich. The zealot grapples the demilich to make sure the monster stays in, they themselve not dying while in rage. Should the barbarian die from the lich or the spell damage, they can hit themselves each round until they leave the AM field and receive a free resurrection. This seems a lot funnier to me :smallsmile:

Method 2 assumes the DM gives you just the right spell, but if they do, it certainly seems that it would work. Method 1 might be achievable with some luck even without Hallow.
That brings our list of solutions to:

Persuasion checks on a bunch of Air Elementals or some other creature(s) capable of solving the problem (requires some DM buy-in)
Go questing for an artifact that solves the problem (requires DM buy-in)
Grung Cleric uses Divine Intervention and hopes for Insect Plague while Grung Zealot grapples demilich (requires DM buy-in and extremely specialized build)
Grung Fighter with extremely specific build (requires extremely specialized build)
Grung Monk

I'm still hoping there's a solution out there that can be accomplished by a more normal party without buy-in.

[MaxWilson]

Method 2 assumes the DM gives you just the right spell, but if they do, it certainly seems that it would work. Method 1 might be achievable with some luck even without Hallow.
That brings our list of solutions to:

Persuasion checks on a bunch of Air Elementals or some other creature(s) capable of solving the problem (requires some DM buy-in)
Go questing for an artifact that solves the problem (requires DM buy-in)
Grung Cleric uses Divine Intervention and hopes for Insect Plague while Grung Zealot grapples demilich (requires DM buy-in and extremely specialized build)
Grung Fighter with extremely specific build (requires extremely specialized build)
Grung Monk

I'm still hoping there's a solution out there that can be accomplished by a more normal party without buy-in.

I posted a couple of solutions that you may have overlooked, involving True Polymorph into Atropal or Aboleth respectively, outside the deadmagic zone.

[Lord Torath]

Create Undead on some dead amphibious tiny creatures that can both swim and climb. Order them to go and retrieve the demilich. Drag it out into the broken weave area and then pound on it with your adamantine picks.

If you issue the order outside of the broken-weave area, your undead should be able to carry it out, yes? And if the demi-lich can still function in the magic-dead area, your frog zombies should be just fine.

Also, if True Polymorph works, turn into a slime or an ooze or a pudding that destroys organic matter, and go dissolve the thing.

[Dork_Forge]

Any race with the ability to swim and breathe underwater, hook the shaft system up to some tubing and flood said system with acid (using some kind of wind spell on the other side of the antimagic zone to achieve adequate pressure. The Demilich has no resistance or immunity to acid damage and acquiring a large amount of acid shouldn't be an issue for a party high level enough to be concerning themselves with some obscurely sequestered Demilich.

[Luccan]

I feel like a fair number of answers are just flat out refusing to engage with the time constraint. Admittedly it's a bit nebulous, but some of them seem to assume you just have hundreds to thousands of X material and non-magical technology decades or centuries ahead of your average D&D world lying around and would in no way need to gather the materials or potentially wait for these things to be invented/assembled

[thereaper]

I posted a couple of solutions that you may have overlooked, involving True Polymorph into Atropal or Aboleth respectively, outside the deadmagic zone.

Wraiths can't stop inside other objects without taking damage. In addition, the Wraiths are summons.

Right, the Aboleth disease to get a small-sized creature in.


Persuasion checks on a bunch of Air Elementals or some other creature(s) capable of solving the problem (requires some DM buy-in)
Go questing for an artifact that solves the problem (requires DM buy-in)
Grung Cleric uses Divine Intervention and hopes for Insect Plague while Grung Zealot grapples demilich (requires DM buy-in and extremely specialized build)
Grung Fighter with extremely specific build (requires extremely specialized build)
Grung Monk
True Polymorph into an Aboleth to inflict water breathing on some other small-sized creature of appropriate build (see above) to employ tactics above

[Contrast]

What book is the Atropal in?

Tomb of Annihilation.

They're a CR13 creature with an innate ability to summon wraiths which last indefinately and obey their commands. As summons its unclear if they could pass into an anti-magic zone. The ability isn't explicit that its magical and the fluff implies its willpower based.


An atropal can summon vestiges of creatures that died in the Negative Plane, which manifest as wraiths. These servants can exist outside the Negative Plane only by the atropal’s sheer force of will, and they quickly dissipate when the atropal is destroyed.

Edit - also just to reiterate. Assuming you can get to the thing its usually going to be reasonably trivial to kill it. Stuff it in a sack and wear earguards and it can't do anything to you so and you can take it back to the surface where the entire party can whale on it. You just need to be able to survive Life Drain long enough to be able to stuff it in the sack but thats pretty easily resolveable for anyone by casting Fog Cloud (godamn antimagic zone) or bringing some smokebombs in a waterproof pouch of whatever.

[thereaper]

It has the word "summon", so that one's out, unfortunately. It's a very neat trick, though. I'll have to remember it.

[Imbalance]

Is the demilich tiny? The dead end at the end of the tiny passage is not said to be a room, so is this dude just squished in there?

I'm also trying to reconcile a tear in the weave. This is not necessarily the same thing as a zone of anti-magic, but is apparently machanically so. Can it be mended somehow - perhaps by beseeching the gods - thereby leveling the playing field?

Barring divine intervention, would there be sufficient time to un-work the stone via mundane means? If there is nothing to hold it together magically, the structure ought to be subject to underwater demolition with a series of strength checks. First you crack the shell, and then you crack the nut inside.

[MaxWilson]

It has the word "summon", so that one's out, unfortunately. It's a very neat trick, though. I'll have to remember it.

For the record, it's not summoned by magic so I believe it would work (and wraiths have enough HP to survive inside objects for quite a while, long enough to drag a demilich out or firebomb it in place), but okay, you're the DM.

P. S. Oh yeah, Gating in some Dao or Earth Elementals looks like it should work too. Or Planar Ally instead of Gate.

[Dork_Forge]

I feel like a fair number of answers are just flat out refusing to engage with the time constraint. Admittedly it's a bit nebulous, but some of them seem to assume you just have hundreds to thousands of X material and non-magical technology decades or centuries ahead of your average D&D world lying around and would in no way need to gather the materials or potentially wait for these things to be invented/assembled

In case my method applies to this I'll clarify: Acid is a standard adventuring item (presumably a 20th level party can buy ample amounts) however if that is a no go, then an Artificer can create an Alchemy Jug which can in turn create 8 ounces of Acid per day. Since we have a full 20th level party that can be 4-6 Artificers producing 32-48 ounces of acid per day in addition to whatever can be purchased or crafted with Tool Expertise. To reduce the quantity needed Homunculus(es?) can maneuver our delivery method of choice into the straight shaft where the Demilich resides (as for the material needed for the tubing/chuting, that's hard to say since we hav eno idea what kind of acid it is, but depending on it's reactivity it'd be safe to assume that a team of +5 Int, Alchemist Supplies Expertise Artificers could come up with something).

Since the timeframe is 'quickly' and the Demilich is so purposefully inaccessible, a time frame of days rather than hours seems more likely, though if that's not the case then the OP should really clarify a deadline or why there even is one since the Demilich appears to have shut itself away to rot.

[Tvtyrant]

Pretty easy one: The Lich pissed off an Elder Evil and has fled to your planet and made this bunker hoping to stay safe. The EE is on its way to eat the Lich, but if it makes planetfall/planetfall it is going to ruin large parts of the world. Killing the Lich so the EE goes away is the goal, party has say 24 hours?

[Sorlock Master]

No, the Demilich is in the magical dead zone. Note, however, that only Energy Drain and Vile Curse are affected by it. The Demilich is still fully capable of defending itself.


Let us posit that, at the bottom of the ocean there is an area where the Weave is torn, preventing magic from working, as described in the PHB (with Sage Advice rules of what constitutes "magic"). The zone is arbitrarily wide, such that no creature that needs to breathe air can traverse it. The zone also extends into the earth an equal distance. In the middle of this is a giant structure of worked stone. It has one passageway that fits a tiny creature. The passageway is filled with water, until it suddenly makes a 90 degree turn upwards into an air pocket (necessitating climbing or flight to progress, as well as the ability to survive without water). At the top is another passageway going horizontal again, which passes through several sharp corners until it reaches a dead end, where a Demilich rests.

A 20th level Adventuring Party needs to slay this Demilich, and quickly. How can they do so?

Relevant Issues:

- Magic is off, so magical attacks, summons, and magical charms are impossible (even Wish arguably doesn't work)
- Any PC small enough to traverse the passageways cannot breathe water
- Creatures must be able to survive in and out of water
- Demiliches are immune to nonmagical attacks, as well as necrotic damage
- There are very few creatures that can burrow through worked stone
- I haven't yet been able to find a nonmagical means of charming a creature

4 Wizards

Cast water breathing, Teleport to edge of anti magic zone, Wizards summon water elementals. Elementals go in grapple the Demilich and drag him out, as soon as the demilich is out of the anti magic area 4 9th level lighting bolts hit him. Average damage is 200 if all 4 do full damage, so at half damage it would still one shot the Demilich and with DC 21 and only +5 on the dex saves means he will likely fail 3. Even a good roll, will only net him 2 saves.

[Contrast]

Problem with plan Grung occurs - finding the thing in the first place. Pretty dark at the bottom of the sea and grung do not have darkvision.

Abolth'd gnomes/goblins may be the way forward.

[Chauncymancer]

Why are we even entertaining the idea that the Howl is a non-magical attack, when the Demi-lich is a disembodied skull with no lungs? I'm a little unsure how any of the demilich's abilities could be mistaken for non-magical.
Also I think we're ignoring the most obvious solution which is creating a Tiny golem and dropping them into the ocean.

[MoiMagnus]

Wizards summon water elementals. Elementals go in grapple the Demilich and drag him out,

Summoned creature disappear in a anti-magic field, so that's not a possibility. To get an elemental in the field, you need to recruit it and get him in the material plane through way other than summoning (dimensional travel).


Why are we even entertaining the idea that the Howl is a non-magical attack, when the Demi-lich is a disembodied skull with no lungs? I'm a little unsure how any of the demilich's abilities could be mistaken for non-magical.

Because it was said in a Sage Advice that undeads are not dispelled by anti-magic fields. While anything "created" or "summoned" by magic is dispelled by the anti-magic field, it doesn't include the undeads.

[Chauncymancer]

... it was said in a Sage Advice that undeads are not dispelled by anti-magic fields. While anything "created" or "summoned" by magic is dispelled by the anti-magic field, it doesn't include the undeads.

I understand why the Demilich keeps existing, I just don't understand how it can use it's brain to attack your soul, scream without any lungs, or levitate in mid-air.

[MoiMagnus]

I understand why the Demilich keeps existing, I just don't understand how it can use it's brain to attack your soul, scream without any lungs, or levitate in mid-air.

It could be supernatural (ie non-magical but non-natural). Creatures can levitate without magic if it is part of their supernatural nature and not a spell.
The fact that there is a difference between supernatural and magical is quite weird in some instances, but it is there to have an anti-magic field spell which is not too effective for its level.

(Relevant sage advice paragraph for reference)

Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical? If you cast antimagic field, don armor of invulnerability, or use another feature of the game that protects against magical or non-magical effects, you might ask yourself, “Will this protect me against a dragon’s breath?” The breath weapon of a typical dragon isn’t considered magical, so antimagic field won’t help you but armor of invulnerability will. You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type.

[Mellack]

There really doesn't seem to be any reason to go through the passages. Get an umberhulk or anything else that can burrow to make a tunnel into the demilich. Send in the party to kill it or have it dragged out. The actual killing doesn't seem that difficult, just the getting to it. Go with the Gordian Knot solution.

[Kane0]

It does appear that True Polymorph and/or Gate provide the answer in this case, though Teleport, Wish and Divine Intervention could feasibly also do the trick.
If the Weave damage didn't extend onto other planes perhaps you could use Etherealness or Plane Shift?
Awakening some marine life could also potentially be pretty helpful.

Otherwise you'd need a race that can breathe water and is small enough for the passageways, then you make them a Monk.

[Tvtyrant]

Also there is the option of pushing meteors onto it from space if all else fails. Stick a helm on a big rock, smack it into the ocean at ramming speed.

[prabe]

Also there is the option of pushing meteors onto it from space if all else fails. Stick a helm on a big rock, smack it into the ocean at ramming speed.

I'd had that thought, but it's potentially a little hard on the world. If you're willing to risk it, just one wish would likely suffice.

[Tvtyrant]

I'd had that thought, but it's potentially a little hard on the world. If you're willing to risk it, just one wish would likely suffice.

I'm sure there will be some survivors.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm sure there will be some survivors.

It was the Aboleth's planet originally anyway.

[CapnWildefyr]

It was the Aboleth's planet originally anyway.

maybe thats why he's hiding?

ok, my first thought was earth and water elementals, but the summoning thing stops that. So: big tubs of air (bathoscope I think) and 1 umber hulk and 1 silver wire net, failing that, just a net. Sea elves, btw, can breathe air and water if I recall correctly. Sea elf rogue locates the demilich. Sea elves put net over the end of the tunnel. umber hulk digs thru top. Water pressure flushes demilich out like poo out of a toilet. Drag him off and kill him somewhere else.

now if the tunnel is literally tiny size, use the tubs of air for a wizard and a familiar, maybe a wizard with a pelican or other sea bird- any familiar that can convey where umber hulk should dig and make it thru. Not sure how many wizards have that kind of familiars...

Just to be mean, have a cadre of clerics bless the water above the thing. Depends on how far away, but flooding the place with holy water would not make the demilich happy. Should work, the water is not magical by itself? I'll be honest I would have to look that up.

[heavyfuel]

Ok, if the Lich must be dealt with, I think the best option is, honestly, a Fighter.

Warforged Brute Fighter to be specific.

Give the Fighter an Adamantine Spear, PAM, and Spear Mastery. Every hit against the Stone is a critical hit (Adamantine) dealing 2d8(weapon and Spear mastery)+2d10(brute)+5(Str)+20(brute) (bonus action attack deals 2d4 instead of 2d8).

At AC 17, with a +12 attack bonus, that's an average 172.8 damage to the rock per turn.

Just destroy the rock. Every 10ft block of stone only has 27HP. The Fighter is destroying 50ft per round (we may have to find a way to increase his speed).

At 8.333 ft per second (2.54 m), he can "dig" at 5.68 mph (9.14 kph).

Find the defenseless demilich (he can't cast spells) and end this whole thing.

Any other class can do it, it just might take longer. As long as the char has non-magical water breathing, it can be done.

[Tvtyrant]

We can also make some lycanthropes or vampires as creatures immune to the water and better in melee then the Lich. Werewhale here I come!

[moonfly7]

It's probably already been said, but magic items made by gods aren't affected by anti magic fields, so I'd assume neither is a gods powers or magic. So just if your level 20, just go in there with 5 clerics. Armed with magic weapons made by God's if possible but not necassary. They use they're automatic call down divine intervention. One to get them inside the cave, and then 4 to replicate 9th level spell effects, or whatever else they can think of, and they'll probably win.
Hard for a lich locked in a cave to survive the whole thing flooding, and a divine whirlpool smashing it over and over into a wall, while meteors fall into it and it's burned by holy wrath.

[nickl_2000]

Just to be mean, have a cadre of clerics bless the water above the thing. Depends on how far away, but flooding the place with holy water would not make the demilich happy. Should work, the water is not magical by itself? I'll be honest I would have to look that up.

That one won't work. Making holy water either requires the ceremony spell or a "performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot." Since it expends a spell slot it is fueled by magic and you couldn't bless it.

Now, if you wanted to pre-create holy water in flasks/barrels and place them inside the hole to explode once they hit the air pocket/wall it would likely work. Nothing the description says that holy water in inherently magical

[CapnWildefyr]

That one won't work. Making holy water either requires the ceremony spell or a "performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot." Since it expends a spell slot it is fueled by magic and you couldn't bless it.

Now, if you wanted to pre-create holy water in flasks/barrels and place them inside the hole to explode once they hit the air pocket/wall it would likely work. Nothing the description says that holy water in inherently magical

Exactly. I meant make the bleeping whole sea holy water if you can. Might flow away, but worth a shot.

Another thing-- who carved this place originally? Bribe them.

You can also use wall of stone and wall of iron outside the dmz, so you can make plugs, tunnels, plates, battering rams... once created as permanent these should remain.

I do think I had the flow backwards in my solution, though. An alternative is to block the bottom entrance. use wall of stones to make a tube. When the umber hulk is nearly though, fill tube with holy water, place above where the hole will be. Engineering project to be sure. Not simple.

Or take a long hose, jam it through the tunnels like a rotor rooter, and pump holy water in.

Lastly, a 20th level high priest of mystra can probably patch the weave. Just leave out the part where the demilich is and pummel him from afar.

[thereaper]

We can also make some lycanthropes or vampires as creatures immune to the water and better in melee then the Lich. Werewhale here I come!

Vampires are harmed by running water. Oceans are very bad for them.

Lycanthropes don't add anything special here, because they can't hurt the demilich and the demilich doesn't attack physically.


There really doesn't seem to be any reason to go through the passages. Get an umberhulk or anything else that can burrow to make a tunnel into the demilich. Send in the party to kill it or have it dragged out. The actual killing doesn't seem that difficult, just the getting to it. Go with the Gordian Knot solution.

The Umber Hulk doesn't actually have the ability to kill it, but yes, it could drag it out (or if not, multiple could) of the dead magic zone, where it could be killed conventionally.


Ok, if the Lich must be dealt with, I think the best option is, honestly, a Fighter.

Warforged Brute Fighter to be specific.

Give the Fighter an Adamantine Spear, PAM, and Spear Mastery. Every hit against the Stone is a critical hit (Adamantine) dealing 2d8(weapon and Spear mastery)+2d10(brute)+5(Str)+20(brute) (bonus action attack deals 2d4 instead of 2d8).

At AC 17, with a +12 attack bonus, that's an average 172.8 damage to the rock per turn.

Just destroy the rock. Every 10ft block of stone only has 27HP. The Fighter is destroying 50ft per round (we may have to find a way to increase his speed).

At 8.333 ft per second (2.54 m), he can "dig" at 5.68 mph (9.14 kph).

Find the defenseless demilich (he can't cast spells) and end this whole thing.

Any other class can do it, it just might take longer. As long as the char has non-magical water breathing, it can be done.

I'll put this down as "use something that can survive underwater to tunnel to the Demilich, where it can then be killed using any previously described killing method". They can even collapse the entrance first, to prevent the demilich from escaping.


Exactly. I meant make the bleeping whole sea holy water if you can. Might flow away, but worth a shot.

Another thing-- who carved this place originally? Bribe them.

You can also use wall of stone and wall of iron outside the dmz, so you can make plugs, tunnels, plates, battering rams... once created as permanent these should remain.

I do think I had the flow backwards in my solution, though. An alternative is to block the bottom entrance. use wall of stones to make a tube. When the umber hulk is nearly though, fill tube with holy water, place above where the hole will be. Engineering project to be sure. Not simple.

Or take a long hose, jam it through the tunnels like a rotor rooter, and pump holy water in.

Lastly, a 20th level high priest of mystra can probably patch the weave. Just leave out the part where the demilich is and pummel him from afar.

So, Umber Hulk tunnels from below to above the demilich, opens a path to it, and party floods tunnel with holy water? The Umber Hulk would need to block the entrance first, but this seems doable.

Current Solutions

Persuasion checks on a bunch of Air Elementals or some other creature(s) capable of solving the problem (requires some DM buy-in)
Go questing for an artifact that solves the problem (requires DM buy-in)
Grung Cleric uses Divine Intervention and hopes for Insect Plague while Grung Zealot grapples demilich (requires DM buy-in and extremely specialized build)
Grung Fighter with extremely specific build (requires extremely specialized build)
Grung Monk
Umber Hulk(s) tunnels to the demilich from below and drags it out of the dead magic zone where it can be killed conventionally
Anything that can survive underwater collapses entrance and tunnels to the demilich, where it can then be killed through methods described above (but without needing to be small-sized)
Umber Hulk collapses entrance, tunnels from below to above the demilich, opens a path to it, and party floods tunnel with holy water

[BurgerBeast]

Vampires are harmed by running water. Oceans are very bad for them.

I’ve never heard an ocean described as running water. I’m not sure what I think about that.

[Tvtyrant]

Vampires are harmed by running water. Oceans are very bad for them.

Lycanthropes don't add anything special here, because they can't hurt the demilich and the demilich doesn't attack physically.


.. If you say so. I think a big lycanthrope can pull the lich out of the barrier though, since it can't hurt them and they can't hurt it but they have better strength scores.

Also Dracula crossed an ocean, so I'm not sure that logic holds. It's a major scene in the books, where he eats everyone on the ship and he gets off accompanied by tens of thousands of rats.

[Asmotherion]

Find a way to lure the Demilich out of there.

For example Planar Binding a bunsh of creatures you Call through a Gate spell (Gate is not mentioned as a summoning effect and 5e Planar Binding does not require you to be the summoner of the creature, just needs to be of an appropriate type). As an extra measure, use diplomacy and a reward for the creatures (possibly coupled with a realistic threat), in case your DM rules they are not compeled by planar binding in the DMZ.

Invest in some Heavy Bruisers with a good swim speed and a good dex/profficient in stealth/investigation/perception. Order them to attempt to locate the phylactery and soul gems through spying on the Demilich. If/when caught, instruct them to give your name to the Demilich. It will have to exit the DMZ to scry on you, and your minions (who have a swim speed) will be able to beat it out of there, and contact you (waiting to the edge).

Finally, it's just a matter of timing a ready action scrying, teleport and wile one of your minions who tailed it engages in melee, Forcecage it.

Ready an action to Forcecage again if it somehow manages to get out.

In the meanwile, your minions who have spent some days trying to find the phylactery and/or soulgems will have located them, and can bring them to you saftelly, at least in reguards to magical traps.

Once you get them, use a Gate to the realm of some Lawful Good Deity, or one of the Deities of Death, and pray to them to put him to his eternal rest. Or get creative, you'll figure something out.

You then have a full power Demilich to fight, but at least now you have access to your full magic, and have planar bound allies to help you.

[Segev]

A necromancer creates a bunch of crawling claws and sends them in to grapple the demilich and drag it out, where the party is ready with all the smite-y spells they can ready to whammy the assortment as soon as the demilich is dragged into magic-ok zone.

[thereaper]

I’ve never heard an ocean described as running water. I’m not sure what I think about that.

It has currents.


.. If you say so. I think a big lycanthrope can pull the lich out of the barrier though, since it can't hurt them and they can't hurt it but they have better strength scores.

Also Dracula crossed an ocean, so I'm not sure that logic holds. It's a major scene in the books, where he eats everyone on the ship and he gets off accompanied by tens of thousands of rats.

The demilich can hurt the lycanthropes, but not vice versa. They increase strength, yes, but demiliches have 1 str anyway.

Dracula is not a 5e vampire.


Find a way to lure the Demilich out of there.

For example Planar Binding a bunsh of creatures you Call through a Gate spell (Gate is not mentioned as a summoning effect and 5e Planar Binding does not require you to be the summoner of the creature, just needs to be of an appropriate type). As an extra measure, use diplomacy and a reward for the creatures (possibly coupled with a realistic threat), in case your DM rules they are not compeled by planar binding in the DMZ.

Invest in some Heavy Bruisers with a good swim speed and a good dex/profficient in stealth/investigation/perception. Order them to attempt to locate the phylactery and soul gems through spying on the Demilich. If/when caught, instruct them to give your name to the Demilich. It will have to exit the DMZ to scry on you, and your minions (who have a swim speed) will be able to beat it out of there, and contact you (waiting to the edge).

Finally, it's just a matter of timing a ready action scrying, teleport and wile one of your minions who tailed it engages in melee, Forcecage it.

Ready an action to Forcecage again if it somehow manages to get out.

In the meanwile, your minions who have spent some days trying to find the phylactery and/or soulgems will have located them, and can bring them to you saftelly, at least in reguards to magical traps.

Once you get them, use a Gate to the realm of some Lawful Good Deity, or one of the Deities of Death, and pray to them to put him to his eternal rest. Or get creative, you'll figure something out.

You then have a full power Demilich to fight, but at least now you have access to your full magic, and have planar bound allies to help you.

But what creatures, specifically?


A necromancer creates a bunch of crawling claws and sends them in to grapple the demilich and drag it out, where the party is ready with all the smite-y spells they can ready to whammy the assortment as soon as the demilich is dragged into magic-ok zone.

We don't have mechanics for PCs to produce these, as far as I'm aware. I guess I can put it down as "convince the master of a crawling claw to lend you some".


Current Solutions
Persuasion checks on a bunch of Air Elementals or some other creature(s) capable of solving the problem (requires some DM buy-in)
Go questing for an artifact that solves the problem (requires DM buy-in)
Grung Cleric uses Divine Intervention and hopes for Insect Plague while Grung Zealot grapples demilich (requires DM buy-in and extremely specialized build)
Grung Fighter with extremely specific build (requires extremely specialized build)
Grung Monk
Umber Hulk(s) tunnels to the demilich from below and drags it out of the dead magic zone where it can be killed conventionally
Anything that can survive underwater collapses entrance and tunnels to the demilich, where it can then be killed through methods described above (but without needing to be small-sized)
Umber Hulk collapses entrance, tunnels from below to above the demilich, opens a path to it, and party floods tunnel with holy water
Convince a creature that has minions that can solve the problem to help you (such as a necromancer with crawling claws)

[MaxWilson]

But what creatures, specifically?

Does it matter? If it's intelligent creatures like Dao, they can kill the demilich with burning oil. If it's burrowing creatures Purple Worms, they can kill the demilich with their stomach acid. "How to kill the demilich once you reach it" is clearly the least interesting part of the problem, and it's been solved already more than once.

[Lord Torath]

Do psionics work in areas with broken weave? In 2E AD&D at least, psionics was explicitly non-magical, and works normally in anti-magic zones. Compact some sand, open a Wormhole to the location of the demilich, pour the sand in, close the wormhole and stop maintaining Compact on the sand. Said sand expands back to 10-times its Compacted volume, crushing the demi-lich (and probably cracking the rock it's hidden in).

[OldTrees1]

.. If you say so. I think a big lycanthrope can pull the lich out of the barrier though, since it can't hurt them and they can't hurt it but they have better strength scores.

Also Dracula crossed an ocean, so I'm not sure that logic holds. It's a major scene in the books, where he eats everyone on the ship and he gets off accompanied by tens of thousands of rats.

Dracula is the origin of the "running water is bad for vampires" rule. Dracula does a lot of work to enable crossing the ocean.

Edit: Mostly he does this by technically not crossing the ocean. Someone else transported him instead.

[Lupine]

I’ve never heard an ocean described as running water. I’m not sure what I think about that.

Having spent much of my life in or around oceans, as well as being a scuba diver, I can confirm. Oceans flow.

[CapnWildefyr]

Having spent much of my life in or around oceans, as well as being a scuba diver, I can confirm. Oceans flow.

The currents even have names - the Gulf Stream for example.

One thing more - The Shoeless and Kane-O brought up the ethereal and similar planes. As separate planes, magic should be just fine there. The question I have: Are there 5e spells or abilities or creatures that could open a portal on top of the little undead bugger so you could pummel him from another plane of existence? Caspar the Friendly Ghost, maybe? :smallwink:

Also, the ShadowWeave is not necessarily changed by a DMZ, either. 20th level characters ought to have some ability to get to those planes, or access to someone or something that does.