How to make Bandits a viable enemy?

[Nagog]

Hey all!

I'm DMing tonight for a party of 5 level 6 characters, one of which is a recent addition and playing a Fighter. The new player enjoys combat, which is something the rest of the party likes, but previously wasn't much of a priority and was fairly rare. In an effort to keep them invested until they get more involved story-wise, I'd like to throw some bandits at them (narrative-wise a lot of crap has happened in the world that has caused widespread unrest, so having some of these bandits be faces various party members recognize as townsfolk I think would be a good way to drive that point home). Unfortunately, being a good sized party at level 6 and playing via video call, throwing more than 4 or 5 enemies at them gets rather clunky and difficult. Is there a better way to make Bandits viable in higher levels? Not just for this, but even up to tier 3 or so?

[JNAProductions]

Use higher CR humanoids.

All from Volo's, you got:

Archer (CR 3)
Blackguard (CR 8)
Conjurer (CR 6)
Diviner (CR 8)

I'd recommend using KFC (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) to help find monsters for yourself. You can filter to only show humanoids, as well as limiting by lower and higher CR.

[Tvtyrant]

Hey all!

I'm DMing tonight for a party of 5 level 6 characters, one of which is a recent addition and playing a Fighter. The new player enjoys combat, which is something the rest of the party likes, but previously wasn't much of a priority and was fairly rare. In an effort to keep them invested until they get more involved story-wise, I'd like to throw some bandits at them (narrative-wise a lot of crap has happened in the world that has caused widespread unrest, so having some of these bandits be faces various party members recognize as townsfolk I think would be a good way to drive that point home). Unfortunately, being a good sized party at level 6 and playing via video call, throwing more than 4 or 5 enemies at them gets rather clunky and difficult. Is there a better way to make Bandits viable in higher levels? Not just for this, but even up to tier 3 or so?

Giants, pet monsters, better traps all seem up there.

For instance a Cyclops with some beast pets (I fluff Giants as having unusual skill at taming Monstrosities) like a Peryton or Manticore and an Owlbear as the leader of the bandits. He uses a whip and net, the other bandits use bows and act as passive artillery for him.

[Contrast]

Use higher CR humanoids.

Also remember you do not need to stick to humanoids in that your bandits can be non-humanoid but also you can just use the stat block and describe whatever you want to your players.

The bandit leader is a weird charismatic sorceror whose magic seems to have given him weird mutations and mind control powers? Use an aboleth stat block.

The bandits are led by this hulking man who used to be a famous knight before he turned on the king rumored to be half goliath? He's actually using the Fire Giant stat block.

[MaxWilson]

Hey all!

I'm DMing tonight for a party of 5 level 6 characters, one of which is a recent addition and playing a Fighter. The new player enjoys combat, which is something the rest of the party likes, but previously wasn't much of a priority and was fairly rare. In an effort to keep them invested until they get more involved story-wise, I'd like to throw some bandits at them (narrative-wise a lot of crap has happened in the world that has caused widespread unrest, so having some of these bandits be faces various party members recognize as townsfolk I think would be a good way to drive that point home). Unfortunately, being a good sized party at level 6 and playing via video call, throwing more than 4 or 5 enemies at them gets rather clunky and difficult. Is there a better way to make Bandits viable in higher levels? Not just for this, but even up to tier 3 or so?

I came here to say "use lots of them and avoid Fireball formation" but you kind of put the kibosh on that with the stuff in bold. :)

But it also seems like you aren't specifically wanting to use the CR 1/8 Bandits from the MM--you just want bandits (lowercase "b"). I don't know what your world is like, but since you're trying to keep the number of enemies small, is it plausible that some of those townsfolk could be retired soldiers or other folk skilled in killing? E.g. two ronin (5th level Samurai), a performancer/face (5th level Lore Bard), and an acrobat (3rd level Shadow Monk), who used to be in the army together before they all retired to this town? Let's say they've fallen on hard times, farming isn't as lucrative as they expected, and maybe some of them have dependents, others have gambling debts.

Presumably their motivation is to take advantage of the chaos to earn a little money, so they're probably less interested in robbing the PCs than in keeping a low profile and robbing travellers (especially refugees and merchants with valuable goods or ready cash). Since the PCs are new to the community, maybe an appropriate way to bring them to light is for the PCs to be falsely accused of being bandits, and one way to clear their name is to apprehend the real bandits in the course of an actual robbery. So the PCs will want to pretend to be merchants, and allow themselves to get ambushed (for real) or "ambushed" (which may require first locating the bandits' hiding spot with magic or familiars and then deliberately going there) and then turn the tables on the ambush.

The conflict in this case has two levels, physical and legal. If you win the physical conflict (kill the townsfolk) but not the legal conflict (don't have sufficient evidence that they were actually bandits) you make new enemies and maybe wind up in jail, depending on how persuasive you can be to whoever is the legal authority. If you win the legal conflict but not the physical conflict (the ambush is successful, a bunch of PCs get Hypnotic Patterned by the bard, and only one PC escapes successfully while others are killed or taken captive), you may take some casualties but clear your name. If you win both, you're heroes.

Is this the kind of idea you're looking for?

[Trask]

Using 10-15 bandits with a few beefy bandit leaders and maybe a minor spellcaster can be PLENTY deadly for a party of that size and level, especially if they get ambushed from cover and something blocking the road.

To deal with numbers, just roll their initiatives together in groups and use the mob rules for attacks in the DMG.

[Asisreo1]

Using 10-15 bandits with a few beefy bandit leaders and maybe a minor spellcaster can be PLENTY deadly for a party of that size and level, especially if they get ambushed from cover and something blocking the road.

To deal with numbers, just roll their initiatives together in groups and use the mob rules for attacks in the DMG.
If you're scared they'll just fireball them away, you can always surround the party with them.

If you find 10-15 bandits clunky, there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

Identical monsters roll the same initiative and act all at once. That means you can quickly say "these 5 dash and surround ms. Cleric and these 6 surround and attack mr. Wizard."

If it's still too much, mob combat may be useful to you. It doesn't play nice with adv/disadv but with straight rolls, it makes 50 enemies take up only 45 secs to run when you know how it works (which really isn't as difficult to understand as it seems).

[MrStabby]

I suggest a lot of little things.

A few bandit archers, but with a tripwire that can make it take a turn longer to get there for melee PCs.
Bandits are in cover
Its an ambush, perception check or be surprised.
Some difficult terrain
Add some magic items - a wand of web, a healing potion
Give the bandidts a couple of wolves
And a leader that is just a bit tougher and stronger
Some poison applied to weapons


Or some bigger things - set it as an ambush in a corn field and the bandits torch the corn as part of the trap - smoke acts as a stinking cloud spell, potentially incapacitating the party and they need to outrun the advancing fire - all the while being shot at by the bandits.

[MaxWilson]

If you're scared they'll just fireball them away, you can always surround the party with them.

It's also worth noting that annihilating monsters in Fireball Formation is great fun for the players and should not always be avoided. Coming up with reasons for monsters to do stupid things that make the PCs look like big heroes is, to a certain extent and depending on the tone of the campaign, the DM's job.

Wouldn't you be sad if you went to all the trouble to learn Fireball and then learned that bandits in this gameworld always fight from either foxholes or skirmish formation, like modern soldiers?

[Asisreo1]

It's also worth noting that annihilating monsters in Fireball Formation is great fun for the players and should not always be avoided. Coming up with reasons for monsters to do stupid things that make the PCs look like big heroes is, to a certain extent and depending on the tone of the campaign, the DM's job.

Wouldn't you be sad if you went to all the trouble to learn Fireball and then learned that bandits in this gameworld always fight from either foxholes or skirmish formation, like modern soldiers?
Yeah, absolutely agree. Though just surrounding someone is a common tactic even in unorganized street brawls. I'd say it's random, but you could also have nice fireball-able formations surrounding the party, so you can get 5-6 of them in one hit without making all of the bandits a joke.

[Composer99]

The diameter of fireball (40 feet) is comparable to the height of a brachiosaurus or to the length of a semi trailer. So 5-6 targets in the area seems pretty reasonable.

[Tvtyrant]

It's also worth noting that annihilating monsters in Fireball Formation is great fun for the players and should not always be avoided. Coming up with reasons for monsters to do stupid things that make the PCs look like big heroes is, to a certain extent and depending on the tone of the campaign, the DM's job.

Wouldn't you be sad if you went to all the trouble to learn Fireball and then learned that bandits in this gameworld always fight from either foxholes or skirmish formation, like modern soldiers?

The bandits who know that fireball exist? It would be pretty offensive if they didn't to be honest. I like my monsters to act rationally and tactically.

[Rynjin]

Historically, the solution is just to build them like you would a PC and use better tactics. Higher tier magic items also even the playing field.

A recent chapter of a web serial I read had bandits destroy an entire city due to a combination of coordination, decently high levels, and powerful magical artifacts like a Wand of Fireball.

[ATHATH]

Historically, the solution is just to build them like you would a PC and use better tactics. Higher tier magic items also even the playing field.

A recent chapter of a web serial I read had bandits destroy an entire city due to a combination of coordination, decently high levels, and powerful magical artifacts like a Wand of Fireball.

Do you have a name for that web serial?

[MaxWilson]

The bandits who know that fireball exist? It would be pretty offensive if they didn't to be honest. I like my monsters to act rationally and tactically.

So, do your bandits run away as soon as they've taken a couple of casualties while inflicting none on the PCs? The way 5E is structured, wherein fights where PCs have even a small chance of not winning easily are labeled Deadly and (officially) discouraged, attackers _must_ regularly be either irrational, suicidal, or acting on bad information to attack the PCs in the first place (or the fights would be Deadly x4 or worse). And bad information should be obvious as soon as the first couple of PCs do something amazing, like one throwing a Fireball and the other killing three bandits in one fluid Action Surge of continuous motion. You'd have to be irrational to NOT run unless you still outnumbered the PCs by about 10 to 1. What do you think rational 5th level PCs would do if one of those "bandits" withstood the Fighter's best Action Surge and then cast Meteor Swarm on them? The survivors would run like mad, right? Monsters routinely face similar levels of force disparities under 5E official guidelines. At least some of them have _got_ to be irrational.

Real-life criminals do irrational things like rob a store for $200 in the cash register, resulting in months or years of prison time, instead of just getting a job and earning $1000's in less time. It's good for the game if some percentage of monsters (and possibly bandits) is rational, highly-trained and -motivated, and tactically savvy, but IMO it's both realistic and fun for the players if that percentage is less than 100%.

Gangsters know that grenades and RPGs exist, in real life, but they don't necessarily adopt skirmish formation to protect against grenade blasts when they shake down a newcomer to their territory, for cash or just for laughs. Sometimes PCs get to be the guy who smiles and casually lobs a grenade at the gang leader.

[Rynjin]

Do you have a name for that web serial?

The Wandering Inn.

It's a good chapter, as is the majority of the serial. I do warn you if you're attempting to catch up to that point, it's about 4 million words in. if you just want to read the chapter in question out of context, it's here (https://wanderinginn.com/2020/05/27/7-25/).

[Tvtyrant]

So, do your bandits run away as soon as they've taken a couple of casualties while inflicting none on the PCs? The way 5E is structured, wherein fights where PCs have even a small chance of not winning easily are labeled Deadly and (officially) discouraged, attackers _must_ regularly be either irrational, suicidal, or acting on bad information to attack the PCs in the first place (or the fights would be Deadly x4 or worse). And bad information should be obvious as soon as the first couple of PCs do something amazing, like one throwing a Fireball and the other killing three bandits in one fluid Action Surge of continuous motion. You'd have to be irrational to NOT run unless you still outnumbered the PCs by about 10 to 1. What do you think rational 5th level PCs would do if one of those "bandits" withstood the Fighter's best Action Surge and then cast Meteor Swarm on them? The survivors would run like mad, right? Monsters routinely face similar levels of force disparities under 5E official guidelines. At least some of them have _got_ to be irrational.

Real-life criminals do irrational things like rob a store for $200 in the cash register, resulting in months or years of prison time, instead of just getting a job and earning $1000's in less time. It's good for the game if some percentage of monsters (and possibly bandits) is rational, highly-trained and -motivated, and tactically savvy, but IMO it's both realistic and fun for the players if that percentage is less than 100%.

Gangsters know that grenades and RPGs exist, in real life, but they don't necessarily adopt skirmish formation to protect against grenade blasts when they shake down a newcomer to their territory, for cash or just for laughs. Sometimes PCs get to be the guy who smiles and casually lobs a grenade at the gang leader.
I'm the guy who constantly advocates for morale rules so... Yes? I also use much more lethal encounters because so many run away. The party doesn't have morale checks due to being heroes, so it balances out.

[Sorlock Master]

Hey all!

I'm DMing tonight for a party of 5 level 6 characters, one of which is a recent addition and playing a Fighter. The new player enjoys combat, which is something the rest of the party likes, but previously wasn't much of a priority and was fairly rare. In an effort to keep them invested until they get more involved story-wise, I'd like to throw some bandits at them (narrative-wise a lot of crap has happened in the world that has caused widespread unrest, so having some of these bandits be faces various party members recognize as townsfolk I think would be a good way to drive that point home). Unfortunately, being a good sized party at level 6 and playing via video call, throwing more than 4 or 5 enemies at them gets rather clunky and difficult. Is there a better way to make Bandits viable in higher levels? Not just for this, but even up to tier 3 or so?

I know this is heretical but using the minion system from 4e would be useful. Should allow you to use more bandits without making things too clunky.

Traps are a simple way to increase the DC of monsters without adding too much rolling.

Adding monstrous pets, or having a leader which acts like a mini boss. Something like 2 bandits and 2 tigers and 1 Bandit that acts more like a druid or ranger.

[MaxWilson]

I'm the guy who constantly advocates for morale rules so... Yes? I also use much more lethal encounters because so many run away. The party doesn't have morale checks due to being heroes, so it balances out.

Ah. Then you are running the game that 5E arguably _should_ be, instead of the game WotC teaches people to run. Good on you in that case.

[Tvtyrant]

Ah. Then you are running the game that 5E arguably _should_ be, instead of the game WotC teaches people to run. Good on you in that case.

I think 5E is a decent base, it is just very safe.

The other solution I have seen around here that I liked was short rests overnight, long rests only in a safe base like a cabin or inn. That eliminates the 9 minute workday entirely, and makes the whole resource grind an actual component of the game. I'm trying that one out my next game.

[MaxWilson]

I think 5E is a decent base, it is just very safe.

The other solution I have seen around here that I liked was short rests overnight, long rests only in a safe base like a cabin or inn. That eliminates the 9 minute workday entirely, and makes the whole resource grind an actual component of the game. I'm trying that one out my next game.

I'm not talking only about the safety, I'm talking about how the low challenge level and lack of morale rules combine to make "enemies nonsensically fight to the death against PCs' superior forces" a practical necessity, for WotC style encounters, which is bad praxis for a roleplaying game. You want the players to learn to see things from the monsters' perspective, to get into their heads and ask themselves, "what do these creatures really want and how can I use that to my advantage?" I.e. roleplay. Teaching players instead that "what these monsters (always) want is to kill you, or at least to deplete your spells and HP a little before they die," is awful.

I'm not an huge fan of slower rest variants either, for dramatic reasons, except slower natural healing, also for dramatic reasons. Fundamentally I just think "This mighty creature is more than a match for you unless you can find a weakness" is generally better drama than "This creature would normally not be a match for you except that you have already killed a dozen monsters this week and you haven't slept well since leaving Ankarta," especially if you lose. I'm all for logistics puzzles about spending resources wisely, but only if you make them _real_, permanent resources like consumable or destructible magic items, or gold, or favors from NPCs that can put you on the hook for favors in return. But the Gritty Realism rest variant doesn't affect anything narratively significant--it just arbitrarily slows down personal recharge rates, IMO pointlessly, because you still need to raise encounter challenge anyway per above.

[DevilMcam]

A couple archers and a couple berserker, led by an orc war chief. add in an illusionist and and/or a priest and you have a basic "deadly" (as per KFC) encounter.

You can upgrade the berserkers into veterans, or add in a werewolf if this is not enough for you

[blackjack50]

Hey all!

I'm DMing tonight for a party of 5 level 6 characters, one of which is a recent addition and playing a Fighter. The new player enjoys combat, which is something the rest of the party likes, but previously wasn't much of a priority and was fairly rare. In an effort to keep them invested until they get more involved story-wise, I'd like to throw some bandits at them (narrative-wise a lot of crap has happened in the world that has caused widespread unrest, so having some of these bandits be faces various party members recognize as townsfolk I think would be a good way to drive that point home). Unfortunately, being a good sized party at level 6 and playing via video call, throwing more than 4 or 5 enemies at them gets rather clunky and difficult. Is there a better way to make Bandits viable in higher levels? Not just for this, but even up to tier 3 or so?

I would say beefing up their weapons. Give them muskets and bayonets. A small organized group doing a fire and advance technique and such. Or asymmetrical warfare. IF you are talking about bandits like ambush type bandits. Especially at night. I think it comes down to how you theme book monsters and bandits too. You can always reskin certain already made enemies. And just make sure your tactics work out well. Here are some I have used to some degree of success:

https://jsigvard.com/dnd/monster.php?m=Martial%20Arts%20Adept

https://tethysdnd.tumblr.com/post/141451536973/resource-black-band-musketeer

I think knowing your party construction would help here. But as for your tactics? Firing from cover, then charging as your second wave fires. A bandit party should be risky, but I don't know if you need bandits to be much more than a vehicle to story arc really. After all, what kind of story kills off quality main characters in a random bad guy attack? They have to at least be killed by a decent antagonist. So as others have said: what do your bandits want? If they want money? Maybe have them ambush the players in a hold up fashion? Throw super high level CR martials that can stun them and such. You can then drag the players along trying to get their stuff back. That kind of thing.