Jervis
2020-06-26, 01:47 AM
Hello. Ive recently developed a small, tiny overwhelming and all consuming obsession with this PrC. Fochlucan Lyrist is infamous for how fiddly it is and how it can be broken. So most people tend to assume its either bad or a power gamer's cheese platter full of RAW abuse like class features in rinks and singing cleric !bards. So i decided to give myself i little challenge, make a few builds that are as bulletproof as possible from a rules standpoint and don't overshadow everyone for a entire game, but still remains powerful once finished and playable from levels 1-10.
So, i've come here presenting two builds today. But before i introduce them i'll share my requirements. First, full 17/17 caster level double 9th level spells minimum. Second, a plurality of levels must be spent in FL, if it has 7 or less FL levels then the build is a bust. Third, they must be made with minimal rules fudging, nothing more than learning druidic from a blighter or changing the racial requirements for a class that lists that doing so would be reasonable.
With that out of the way, lets begin. Remember anything i say about a class or PrC is just my opinion, feel free to explain why i'm wrong in replies. I love this sort of theorycrafting.
The Beguiling Spell Thief
Beguiler 6/ Ruathar 1/ Loredelver 3/ Ur-Priest 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9
First, the race. You probably noticed Loredelver on this. I'll go into this more in it's own section but all you need to know is that it's good and it's Illumian (Races of Destiny) exclusive. While the text for adapting it states that logically any casters that focus on gathering lore and dungeon delving can take it, Illumian is a good race anyway so it's not a major issue. Whatever you do, pick Krau as one of your Sigils. You don't need it per se but higher caster level is never a bad thing and helps out because without it we'll be 18/19 caster level on our two classes. going up to 20/20 for anything caster level related is nice. And you can make bonus spells proc off another stat is you like, but you'll still need two 19s in Int and Wis by the end to take advantage of double barrel 9th level spellcasting later. Though a level 1 feat can mitigate this if you can pick up a flaw. Another solid option if the DM allows you to use LD with others is Tibbit (Dragon Compendium). It gives you Druidic, even if its a little cheesy because of wording, but the book it came from saw Errata that changed nothing and it turns into a cat so its fitting. It gives -2 Strength (who cares) and +2 Dex in addition to being small. Very fun. And any race that gives Druidic will probably work here so long as something doesn't break it. Though if the DM is letting you use other races and allows for learning druidic from other sources, Human is great because it allows for two 1st level feats that really help.
Feats, you need three. Iron Will and Spell Focus (evil) are crucial and you need Apprentice (Entertainer)(Level 1 exclusive) to get the needed ranks in Preform. Other than that Academic Priest (Legend of the Twins) helps with Ur-Priest later on and makes you Int SAD. If that's not possible, either because the DM disallows it, doesn't let you take a flaw, or doesn't let you play Human, then just use a Wisdom boosting item or have high Wisdom going in. Other than that have fun but just get the three feats you need before the level 11 deadline.
Beguiler (Player's handbook II) might not be the best class but it's a solid their 3 in my opinion. 6 levels gets you some of their better features. Even if they get 1/2 BAB, not a major problem, they still get two strong saves, some armor and weapon proficiencies, and some really interesting spellcasting mechanics. You excel in social encounters with spells like Glibness, which you get earlier than Bards by the way, and plenty of charm and illusion spells that complement your massive skill list and 6 + Int skill points per level. You're also pretty good at dungeoneering to because of things like trapfinding and some good spells like spider climb. You're actual combat is a bit shaky though with most of your spells being save or end encounter things like Sleep or Prismatic Spray. But you'll always be useful in one way or another, you technically have more spells on hand at any one time than anything that isn't another full list caster. It also gives trap finder for a class that needs it later.
Ruathar (Savage Species), i'm not gonna lie this is the only thing i could find that gave Knowledge Dungeoneering, Knowledge Planes, and Knowledge Religion while not slowing spell progression and was easily obtainable. It gives weird stuff like elf friendship and a free magic item at level 1, though it does have a 1d6 and 4 + Int skill points so it synergies well. It's a variant class option with awkward requirments like helping elves out in a quest. I'd recommend just asking the DM to let you suck out the class features and play it as a slightly kneecapped version of your other class for a level if he's uncomfortable with this.
Loredelver (Races of Destiny), d6 hit die, 6+int skill points, and some great abilities. It has some meaty requirements like 10s in two skill ranks and the annoying Trapfinding which you can only get from a couple classes, Beguiler being one of them thankfully. You loose out on one level of caster progression at level 1, but in exchange you get all good stuff. At level 2 you get a at will detect magic, but that's not why were here. You get Bardic Knowledge at 1st and Evasion at 3rd, meeting the two hardest requirements in one class. It's like it was made for this. Like i said it has a Illumian requirement but the "adaptation" section talks about waving it.
Ur-Priest (Complete Divine), ok i needed some cheese with this. You all know what this is, heavy requirements for 9th level cleric spell access in 10 levels. Hitting those Fort save reqs took a while and those feats are useless, but we're here. For one d8 hit die and 2 + int skill points with no class skill that matters. Put it in Perform and lets move on, you met the others long ago.
Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adventurer). And now, the moment you've all been waiting for! D6 hit die, full BaB, full double class progression, two strong saves. It's got all the goodies. Have fun for 9 levels.
End Result 18/19 caster level with 9th level spells from two sources including Miracle and Time Stop, have fun making the wizard cry. BAB of 13, not that it matters because a 3rd level cleric spell fixes that if you care. INSANE SAVES. What you don't think they matter for a multiclass? if i did my math right your worst save is a +8 before stats factor in. After feat bonuses for will, you have +8 Fort, +16 Ref, and +21 Will! You also have insane flexibility having the full Beguiler spell list and the ability to prepare cleric spells. You also have a ridiculous amount of skills. I can't really point to a point when you really fall off either, two missed levels that each have a good power boost to compensate. Though the biggest flaw with this is the inclusion of Ruathar, i would prefer not using a weird variant class if possible so if anyone can point me to something that gives two of Performance, Knowledge Dungeoneering, or Knowledge Religion then please show me. Id rather change this up. Also i know about that Ravenloft feat that gives all Int skills HD + 5 cap but i'd rather avoid that since i think it's technically 3rd party and has weird lore baggage.
The Wizard who Knew too Much
Rogue 1/ Wizard 6/ Loredelver 3/ Ur-Preist 1/ FL 9
This is admittedly more of a tweak to the build above. This goes more into power gamer territory though it does suffer from an additional spell level loss, fewer skills, and over all more awkward levels that make this build worse in the mid game but your power at level 20 is more respectable. I recommend the above option for games that start before level 10, but if a DM ever tells you to make a level 15 + character then this will work well. Again Druidic requirement is assumed to be met via a friendly Blighter or Ex Druid if you can't play a non-Illumian LD from a Druidic speaking race. We just can't afford a 1 level detour into Druid in this.
Rogue has all of the skills we need. Seriously between rogue and Wizard everything we use is a class skill. Though you'll be paying cross class penalties for most of them later on because we're only here for one level to get that juicy (8+int)x4 skill point trove and trapfinding. Try to meet them in LD after you take you learning quest in Wise-ard. Even if this makes Preform a class skill you can only fill 4 ranks here. You still need 9 at double cost later. So i recommend still taking a apprenticeship. It's a good feat anyway. Oh and you get 1d6 sneak attack i guess... Thanks kinda cool. :smallcool:
Wizard. It's a Bird, Its a Plane, no its a flying book attached to a old man! Seriously 2+int and d4 HP isn't good but we need those knowledge skills from somewhere and of course they have the best spellcasting outside of arguably cleric. (Though i still think clerics are better) This doesn't help much at all but its powerful when we get the ball rolling. I also believe you don't get free spells from PrC levels so... have fun with that. Fun fact this guy's familiar tripped me up when i made this, i forgot it doesn't raise base saves so the original version of this build was 10 levels FL instead of 9, but this guy's shrimp bod Fort save made me move everything around just to get the +3 for Ur-Priest. Though the final build wasn't affected that much in terms of power. But i'm still salty about how much that tilted me. Hit me over lunch like a ton of bricks during lunch and i spent the whole day mathing and searching for low level wizard PrCs that gave strong fort until i gave up and just shifted the levels over by 1. :smallmad:
I'm going to save you the trouble of listing feats and repeat classes again, as above so below. Like i said this is just a variation that trades a level of casting over to a useless rogue level as a awesome tax.
End Result, 17/18 Wizard Cleric casting baby! Aaaaand that's about it. Saves except Will are bad. BaB, for what little it maters for cleric casters, is bad. No casting in light armor like a Beguiler could do, for what little it maters with low AC anyway. Lower HP. Lower Skill Ranks. No free spells unless your DM is merciful with houserules. Lost 3 caster levels along the way, you get new spells at the same level but fewer slots. This isn't bad by any means, its almost certainly better than a Mystic Theurge build with Wizard/Ur-Priest in the same ratio, but still kind of weird and awkward to build. Very good at high levels but awkward at low ones. Over all the more powerful option, i mean you can theoretically have access to 2/3 of the spells in the game, but also the easiest to mess up. You spend three feats that would be better spent elsewhere by a Cleric with DMM or a Wizard item crafter. Unlike the last one which was a tier 3 build being slowly boosted to tier 1 this is a tier 1 build being dragged down to tier 2 or 3 so it can eventually be tier 0.
So did i miss anything? Do these work as intended or did i make some kind of massive blunder along the way?
So, i've come here presenting two builds today. But before i introduce them i'll share my requirements. First, full 17/17 caster level double 9th level spells minimum. Second, a plurality of levels must be spent in FL, if it has 7 or less FL levels then the build is a bust. Third, they must be made with minimal rules fudging, nothing more than learning druidic from a blighter or changing the racial requirements for a class that lists that doing so would be reasonable.
With that out of the way, lets begin. Remember anything i say about a class or PrC is just my opinion, feel free to explain why i'm wrong in replies. I love this sort of theorycrafting.
The Beguiling Spell Thief
Beguiler 6/ Ruathar 1/ Loredelver 3/ Ur-Priest 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9
First, the race. You probably noticed Loredelver on this. I'll go into this more in it's own section but all you need to know is that it's good and it's Illumian (Races of Destiny) exclusive. While the text for adapting it states that logically any casters that focus on gathering lore and dungeon delving can take it, Illumian is a good race anyway so it's not a major issue. Whatever you do, pick Krau as one of your Sigils. You don't need it per se but higher caster level is never a bad thing and helps out because without it we'll be 18/19 caster level on our two classes. going up to 20/20 for anything caster level related is nice. And you can make bonus spells proc off another stat is you like, but you'll still need two 19s in Int and Wis by the end to take advantage of double barrel 9th level spellcasting later. Though a level 1 feat can mitigate this if you can pick up a flaw. Another solid option if the DM allows you to use LD with others is Tibbit (Dragon Compendium). It gives you Druidic, even if its a little cheesy because of wording, but the book it came from saw Errata that changed nothing and it turns into a cat so its fitting. It gives -2 Strength (who cares) and +2 Dex in addition to being small. Very fun. And any race that gives Druidic will probably work here so long as something doesn't break it. Though if the DM is letting you use other races and allows for learning druidic from other sources, Human is great because it allows for two 1st level feats that really help.
Feats, you need three. Iron Will and Spell Focus (evil) are crucial and you need Apprentice (Entertainer)(Level 1 exclusive) to get the needed ranks in Preform. Other than that Academic Priest (Legend of the Twins) helps with Ur-Priest later on and makes you Int SAD. If that's not possible, either because the DM disallows it, doesn't let you take a flaw, or doesn't let you play Human, then just use a Wisdom boosting item or have high Wisdom going in. Other than that have fun but just get the three feats you need before the level 11 deadline.
Beguiler (Player's handbook II) might not be the best class but it's a solid their 3 in my opinion. 6 levels gets you some of their better features. Even if they get 1/2 BAB, not a major problem, they still get two strong saves, some armor and weapon proficiencies, and some really interesting spellcasting mechanics. You excel in social encounters with spells like Glibness, which you get earlier than Bards by the way, and plenty of charm and illusion spells that complement your massive skill list and 6 + Int skill points per level. You're also pretty good at dungeoneering to because of things like trapfinding and some good spells like spider climb. You're actual combat is a bit shaky though with most of your spells being save or end encounter things like Sleep or Prismatic Spray. But you'll always be useful in one way or another, you technically have more spells on hand at any one time than anything that isn't another full list caster. It also gives trap finder for a class that needs it later.
Ruathar (Savage Species), i'm not gonna lie this is the only thing i could find that gave Knowledge Dungeoneering, Knowledge Planes, and Knowledge Religion while not slowing spell progression and was easily obtainable. It gives weird stuff like elf friendship and a free magic item at level 1, though it does have a 1d6 and 4 + Int skill points so it synergies well. It's a variant class option with awkward requirments like helping elves out in a quest. I'd recommend just asking the DM to let you suck out the class features and play it as a slightly kneecapped version of your other class for a level if he's uncomfortable with this.
Loredelver (Races of Destiny), d6 hit die, 6+int skill points, and some great abilities. It has some meaty requirements like 10s in two skill ranks and the annoying Trapfinding which you can only get from a couple classes, Beguiler being one of them thankfully. You loose out on one level of caster progression at level 1, but in exchange you get all good stuff. At level 2 you get a at will detect magic, but that's not why were here. You get Bardic Knowledge at 1st and Evasion at 3rd, meeting the two hardest requirements in one class. It's like it was made for this. Like i said it has a Illumian requirement but the "adaptation" section talks about waving it.
Ur-Priest (Complete Divine), ok i needed some cheese with this. You all know what this is, heavy requirements for 9th level cleric spell access in 10 levels. Hitting those Fort save reqs took a while and those feats are useless, but we're here. For one d8 hit die and 2 + int skill points with no class skill that matters. Put it in Perform and lets move on, you met the others long ago.
Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adventurer). And now, the moment you've all been waiting for! D6 hit die, full BaB, full double class progression, two strong saves. It's got all the goodies. Have fun for 9 levels.
End Result 18/19 caster level with 9th level spells from two sources including Miracle and Time Stop, have fun making the wizard cry. BAB of 13, not that it matters because a 3rd level cleric spell fixes that if you care. INSANE SAVES. What you don't think they matter for a multiclass? if i did my math right your worst save is a +8 before stats factor in. After feat bonuses for will, you have +8 Fort, +16 Ref, and +21 Will! You also have insane flexibility having the full Beguiler spell list and the ability to prepare cleric spells. You also have a ridiculous amount of skills. I can't really point to a point when you really fall off either, two missed levels that each have a good power boost to compensate. Though the biggest flaw with this is the inclusion of Ruathar, i would prefer not using a weird variant class if possible so if anyone can point me to something that gives two of Performance, Knowledge Dungeoneering, or Knowledge Religion then please show me. Id rather change this up. Also i know about that Ravenloft feat that gives all Int skills HD + 5 cap but i'd rather avoid that since i think it's technically 3rd party and has weird lore baggage.
The Wizard who Knew too Much
Rogue 1/ Wizard 6/ Loredelver 3/ Ur-Preist 1/ FL 9
This is admittedly more of a tweak to the build above. This goes more into power gamer territory though it does suffer from an additional spell level loss, fewer skills, and over all more awkward levels that make this build worse in the mid game but your power at level 20 is more respectable. I recommend the above option for games that start before level 10, but if a DM ever tells you to make a level 15 + character then this will work well. Again Druidic requirement is assumed to be met via a friendly Blighter or Ex Druid if you can't play a non-Illumian LD from a Druidic speaking race. We just can't afford a 1 level detour into Druid in this.
Rogue has all of the skills we need. Seriously between rogue and Wizard everything we use is a class skill. Though you'll be paying cross class penalties for most of them later on because we're only here for one level to get that juicy (8+int)x4 skill point trove and trapfinding. Try to meet them in LD after you take you learning quest in Wise-ard. Even if this makes Preform a class skill you can only fill 4 ranks here. You still need 9 at double cost later. So i recommend still taking a apprenticeship. It's a good feat anyway. Oh and you get 1d6 sneak attack i guess... Thanks kinda cool. :smallcool:
Wizard. It's a Bird, Its a Plane, no its a flying book attached to a old man! Seriously 2+int and d4 HP isn't good but we need those knowledge skills from somewhere and of course they have the best spellcasting outside of arguably cleric. (Though i still think clerics are better) This doesn't help much at all but its powerful when we get the ball rolling. I also believe you don't get free spells from PrC levels so... have fun with that. Fun fact this guy's familiar tripped me up when i made this, i forgot it doesn't raise base saves so the original version of this build was 10 levels FL instead of 9, but this guy's shrimp bod Fort save made me move everything around just to get the +3 for Ur-Priest. Though the final build wasn't affected that much in terms of power. But i'm still salty about how much that tilted me. Hit me over lunch like a ton of bricks during lunch and i spent the whole day mathing and searching for low level wizard PrCs that gave strong fort until i gave up and just shifted the levels over by 1. :smallmad:
I'm going to save you the trouble of listing feats and repeat classes again, as above so below. Like i said this is just a variation that trades a level of casting over to a useless rogue level as a awesome tax.
End Result, 17/18 Wizard Cleric casting baby! Aaaaand that's about it. Saves except Will are bad. BaB, for what little it maters for cleric casters, is bad. No casting in light armor like a Beguiler could do, for what little it maters with low AC anyway. Lower HP. Lower Skill Ranks. No free spells unless your DM is merciful with houserules. Lost 3 caster levels along the way, you get new spells at the same level but fewer slots. This isn't bad by any means, its almost certainly better than a Mystic Theurge build with Wizard/Ur-Priest in the same ratio, but still kind of weird and awkward to build. Very good at high levels but awkward at low ones. Over all the more powerful option, i mean you can theoretically have access to 2/3 of the spells in the game, but also the easiest to mess up. You spend three feats that would be better spent elsewhere by a Cleric with DMM or a Wizard item crafter. Unlike the last one which was a tier 3 build being slowly boosted to tier 1 this is a tier 1 build being dragged down to tier 2 or 3 so it can eventually be tier 0.
So did i miss anything? Do these work as intended or did i make some kind of massive blunder along the way?