Cost to get a local dungeon (ala LitRPG stories)

[reddir]

I've been reading too much isekai manga and LitRPG stories. A common trope there is a local dungeon that adventure groups farm for xp and treasures.

It is an easy source of both for adventurers and a source of tourist and worker income for the settlements nearby.

Some of these dungeons are themed (animals, undead, humanoid, flying monsters, etc), some of these dungeons go deeper than others (10 floors, 20 floors, 50+ floors, etc). Some rare stories have them instanced like the dungeons in WoW or other MMOs, mostly the GameLit sub-genre as they explicitly happen inside gameworlds.

They typically have at least 4, sometimes 20+ rooms of CR equivalent encounters and a boss room at the end - for D&D this might be CR+2...?

---------------

So, say some town wants to get a local dungeon of this sort...what might it cost?

They might petition the deities, or pay a magician's guild, or find some other way to do it, the details aren't critical. What matters is all they can offer is gold or gems or xp or some trade commodities.

My thinking is one must buy up (or down, deeper into the ground) from CR 1 at +1 each level, fully paying for each level.

My first thought is [1000 gp * floor CR^2]. This would be [1,000] gp for a single floor (CR 1) dungeon, non instanced; and [1000 + 4000 + 9000 + 16000 + 25000 = 55,000] gp for a 5 floor (CR 1 - 5) dungeon, non-instanced.

Maybe the cost is x100 for an instanced dungeon able to have as many parties running through their own instance as you can send through, each farming xp and treasure, 100,000 gp and 5,500,000 gp for the above examples.

---------------

What do you all think of the idea?

What do you think of the first pass at a cost for installation?

It might be reasonable to have more than 1 floor for each CR, with deeper levels having a bigger chance for CR+1 rooms.

---------------

Idea from Nifft's post:

Installation Options mods available, which will affect price:
1) Monster overflow chance. Adding this gives a discount (less rigorous controls installed); or this is standard and one must pay extra for added safeguards to prevent this. The extra discount/cost might depend on a variable % chance or time without full clear till overflow.
2) Treasure types available. Body parts are standard; pay extra for available drops of each of coins/gems, non magic weapons/armor, potions, scrolls/wands/staves, magic weapons/armor, wondrous items and rings.

[Nifft]

Are dungeon-drops going to be items of strategic value? If so, the state would run the dungeon entry and exit process, and entry would be either cheap or mandatory (i.e. this is your feudal service / tithe). You'd have to declare everything you got in the dungeon and the king would take a share, and probably get first pick.

Are dungeon-drops limited in quantity (per unit time), and not strategic in value? If so, then a guild of some kind might auction timed access to the dungeon. You'd have a rough guess of the expected profit, and thus bid lower than that.

Do dungeon monsters overflow and attack the towns if they're not subjugated often enough? See above for state-run dungeons being a form of mandatory service, perhaps some types of knights would be tasked with this specific service.

[reddir]

Are dungeon-drops going to be items of strategic value? If so, the state would run the dungeon entry and exit process, and entry would be either cheap or mandatory (i.e. this is your feudal service / tithe). You'd have to declare everything you got in the dungeon and the king would take a share, and probably get first pick.

Are dungeon-drops limited in quantity (per unit time), and not strategic in value? If so, then a guild of some kind might auction timed access to the dungeon. You'd have a rough guess of the expected profit, and thus bid lower than that.

Do dungeon monsters overflow and attack the towns if they're not subjugated often enough? See above for state-run dungeons being a form of mandatory service, perhaps some types of knights would be tasked with this specific service.

Good questions!

I was thinking regular random treasure for each room - possibly equivalent meat/hide/teeth/claws for the animal only rooms. This would mean scrolls/armor/weapons/money/gems/etc can be found.

Heavy taxation of finds, mandatory service (either in person or via substitutes), entry fees, monster overflow/breaks, and official 'dungeon clear squads' are some of the elements associated with this trope in the genre.

I guess each GM would have to decide what fits their concept of the world and local authority.

Hmm, monster overflow and treasure types available might be options that adjust the price of the dungeon....

[Gavinfoxx]

So I've given this some thought...

And it doesn't really work with the existing rules in the game. The Stronghold Builder's Guide rules assume hundreds of thousands of gold as a baseline. To make most dungeons, including traps and such, you need millions. It's just not viable.

You'd need some sort of system where you can ignore the gold cost of most of the options.

Such as my various options in my post-scarcity or airship handbooks

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14zilT4WGOyHM0AfpG4-GmD2FkgDg1HZ9HC1cTleQHds/edit?usp=sharing

The problem is, if you are doing that, you don't NEED a dungeon for wealth cause you just make it from the various replicators.

So, you'd basically have to set up a Dungeon Core system, with someone making a Dungeon Keeper D20 system (I'd expect whoever made such a thing would've based it off of the older version of the trope, ie Dungeon Keeper, rather than the 'crystal with fairy' from more modern litrpg's, going by when the big popularity of the big homebrew d20 systems came out.)

Perhaps they have a certain number of hundreds of thousands of gold worth of work they are capable of doing on their dungeon each day?

[reddir]

And it doesn't really work with the existing rules in the game. The Stronghold Builder's Guide rules assume hundreds of thousands of gold as a baseline. To make most dungeons, including traps and such, you need millions. It's just not viable.


I am hoping to skip over all this and just set a price that seems 'fair'. I want to find some balance between cost to install and income & opportunity over time.

[reddir]

So, you'd basically have to set up a Dungeon Core system, with someone making a Dungeon Keeper D20 system (I'd expect whoever made such a thing would've based it off of the older version of the trope, ie Dungeon Keeper, rather than the 'crystal with fairy' from more modern litrpg's, going by when the big popularity of the big homebrew d20 systems came out.)

Perhaps they have a certain number of hundreds of thousands of gold worth of work they are capable of doing on their dungeon each day?

I very much want to avoid this trope.

My idea simplifies a lot of things but the Dungeon Keeper idea turns the regular gameplay on its head with the player(s) being a sort of GM and setting up a dungeon which the adventure parties controlled by the GM try to invade.

I find some of these stories okay for a bit but I don't read too far or very many of them. (just personal taste, I do see the appeal of the concept for stories)

[Gavinfoxx]

Still, I'd say my suggestions in the post-scarcity handbook might still be relevant, at least somewhat. You'd have to come up with a reason why they work, but only somewhat. Maybe repeating traps or other similar magic items only work in a radius of a certain object that emits a specific type of magical radiation? Tweak faerzress some, perhaps?

[reddir]

Still, I'd say my suggestions in the post-scarcity handbook might still be relevant, at least somewhat. You'd have to come up with a reason why they work, but only somewhat. Maybe repeating traps or other similar magic items only work in a radius of a certain object that emits a specific type of magical radiation? Tweak faerzress some, perhaps?

Looking at prices of resetting magic traps (I don't now if a magic trap CR is 1 + spell level or just spell level. I am going with just spell level unless told otherwise):
CR 1: 500 + [40 xp * 5 = 200] = 700 gp / room
CR 2: 3000 + [ 240 * 5 = 1200] = 4,200 gp / room
CR 3: 7500 + [ 600 * 5 = 3000] = 10,500 gp / room
CR 4: 14000 + [1120 * 5 = 5600] = 19,600 gp / room
CR 5: 22500 + [1800 * 5 = 9000] = 31,500 gp / room
CR 6: 33000 + [2640 * 5 = 13200] = 46,200 gp / room
CR 7: 45500 + [3640 * 5 = 18200] = 63,700 gp / room

Just using these prices, with CR x 4 rooms and CR+2 x 1 room for each level, and no extra costs we get:
Level 1: 9,500 gp
Level 2: 26,000 gp
Level 3: 52,500 gp
Level 4: 89,000 gp
Level 5: 135,500 gp

The cost of the actual dungeon space would, by RAW, need to be added onto these costs.

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(I tried to add spaces to make the formatting cleaner but it does not show)

[TheCount]

i remember reading somewhere on this forum that dungeons could be made.

iirc, it was an intelligent item with summon monster traps and would buy new stronghold spaces.....

[Nifft]

Good questions!

I was thinking regular random treasure for each room - possibly equivalent meat/hide/teeth/claws for the animal only rooms. This would mean scrolls/armor/weapons/money/gems/etc can be found. Hmmm, does this mean the corpses of the monsters disappear? Honestly if I kill a thing with claws and hide then I would expect to just take the claws and hide from the dead body.


Heavy taxation of finds, mandatory service (either in person or via substitutes), entry fees, monster overflow/breaks, and official 'dungeon clear squads' are some of the elements associated with this trope in the genre. Cool, those make sense to me, and the "mandatory service (via substitutes)" seems like a very good fit for Feudalist mentality.


I guess each GM would have to decide what fits their concept of the world and local authority.

Hmm, monster overflow and treasure types available might be options that adjust the price of the dungeon.... This is for your world, though, isn't it? It's easier for me to help you with your specifics, and then later steal the bits which work for my world(s).

Regarding the price of a dungeon, what if it wasn't gold that improved the rewards, but rather the souls of the dungeon's victims? Then you'd get some minor noble sacrificing innocent maidens to improve his dungeon's yield, but then on the other hand a dungeon might become deadly enough over time that it simply "evolves" without deliberate sacrifices.

That's a bit dark for some games, but it gives a reason why the dungeon is trying to kill the PCs.


I very much want to avoid this trope.

My idea simplifies a lot of things but the Dungeon Keeper idea turns the regular gameplay on its head with the player(s) being a sort of GM and setting up a dungeon which the adventure parties controlled by the GM try to invade.

I find some of these stories okay for a bit but I don't read too far or very many of them. (just personal taste, I do see the appeal of the concept for stories) IMHO that whole game group including tower defense games and Dungeon Keeper is fun because the enemy characters act in programmed, predictable ways.

It's a lot more fun to beat them than it would be to force someone (either the players or the DM) to play them.

Good solo computer game, but not easy to translate into a group tabletop game.

[lylsyly]

So 50 years ago when the town was founded they didn't realize it was built right over a drow community ....
BAM! done. It is your civic duty to work the dungeaon from 16 to 20 years of age.

Then you're a seasoned (level 1) adventurer and ready to go out on your own to brave the world while the next group of youngsters ......

[Evoker]

So 50 years ago when the town was founded they didn't realize it was built right over a drow community ....
BAM! done. It is your civic duty to work the dungeaon from 16 to 20 years of age.

Then you're a seasoned (level 1) adventurer and ready to go out on your own to brave the world while the next group of youngsters ......

A sub-level one adventuring party would have trouble taking on even a single CR 1 drow.

[Tvtyrant]

I've been reading too much isekai manga and LitRPG stories. A common trope there is a local dungeon that adventure groups farm for xp and treasures.

It is an easy source of both for adventurers and a source of tourist and worker income for the settlements nearby.

Some of these dungeons are themed (animals, undead, humanoid, flying monsters, etc), some of these dungeons go deeper than others (10 floors, 20 floors, 50+ floors, etc). Some rare stories have them instanced like the dungeons in WoW or other MMOs, mostly the GameLit sub-genre as they explicitly happen inside gameworlds.

They typically have at least 4, sometimes 20+ rooms of CR equivalent encounters and a boss room at the end - for D&D this might be CR+2...?

---------------

So, say some town wants to get a local dungeon of this sort...what might it cost?

They might petition the deities, or pay a magician's guild, or find some other way to do it, the details aren't critical. What matters is all they can offer is gold or gems or xp or some trade commodities.

My thinking is one must buy up (or down, deeper into the ground) from CR 1 at +1 each level, fully paying for each level.

My first thought is [1000 gp * floor CR^2]. This would be [1,000] gp for a single floor (CR 1) dungeon, non instanced; and [1000 + 4000 + 9000 + 16000 + 25000 = 55,000] gp for a 5 floor (CR 1 - 5) dungeon, non-instanced.

Maybe the cost is x100 for an instanced dungeon able to have as many parties running through their own instance as you can send through, each farming xp and treasure, 100,000 gp and 5,500,000 gp for the above examples.

---------------

What do you all think of the idea?

What do you think of the first pass at a cost for installation?

It might be reasonable to have more than 1 floor for each CR, with deeper levels having a bigger chance for CR+1 rooms.

---------------

Idea from Nifft's post:

Installation Options mods available, which will affect price:
1) Monster overflow chance. Adding this gives a discount (less rigorous controls installed); or this is standard and one must pay extra for added safeguards to prevent this. The extra discount/cost might depend on a variable % chance or time without full clear till overflow.
2) Treasure types available. Body parts are standard; pay extra for available drops of each of coins/gems, non magic weapons/armor, potions, scrolls/wands/staves, magic weapons/armor, wondrous items and rings.

I think it would make more sense to have portals to Carceri or some other dungeon world pop up in the ground. People find them and take control of the entrances, then get paid to let people go into the portals to loot the other world. Just assuming monsters can't come out but items can; it could be random planes or dungeon planes specifically.

[Malphegor]

A sub-level one adventuring party would have trouble taking on even a single CR 1 drow.

Depends how big the adventuring party is.

Sufficient quantity of level 1 adventurers, fired at sufficient velocity, can take down any threat

[InvisibleBison]

I've been reading too much isekai manga and LitRPG stories. A common trope there is a local dungeon that adventure groups farm for xp and treasures.

I don't think this is an idea that really makes sense in D&D. It definitely wouldn't work as a way of making money, and while it would work as a way for adventurers to gain XP, there's no advantage to building a dungeon to have the fights in, as opposed to an arena of some sort.

[noob]

It is easy and cheap to make a dungeon in dnd: it costs exactly as much as the loot in it + the cost of building or finding raising and teaching the monsters in it.
In the end it is worth it to spend more than what the adventurers gains in money because the adventurers gains xp so there is resource generation.
Ex: A wizard wants to make a dungeon for level 10 adventurers so he puts the loot they would have gained in 13.3333 encounters as well as 13.3333 simulacrum of that level 20 monster that have 18 hd(ex the fancy cr 20 devil) it costs 13333 xp to make those monsters as well as 11999,9 gold but each of the four adventurer gains 75 as much xp as what the wizard spent so you basically tripled the amount of experience so it is a huge gain because asymptotically xp converts to gold at a rate of approximatively 5 gold per xp when using wish (which is not as efficient as magical item crafting).
So on the paper it works (arenas works better in theory but which dnd player just wants to play through a long chain of organised duels up to level 20?)

[Bucky]

I think the best implementation in terms of world-building is that the dungeons are not artificial, but rather they're set up by the setting's god of slaughter and glory as a way of testing the worthy and disposing of the unworthy. The god sets up the price schedule for the floors, paid by sacrificing increasingly exotic and expensive creatures for harder floors. When the price is paid, he sets up conditional one-way portals from far-away lands that creatures of the appropriate challenge rating can stumble through, which close when the floor is adequately challenging. He also sets up a vending machine shrine where the victorious adventurers can petition him or his minions for a material reward based on their combat performance.

In other words, the design purpose of a dungeon is for people to kill and die in the dungeon god's name, nothing more and nothing less.

[noob]

I think the best implementation in terms of world-building is that the dungeons are not artificial, but rather they're set up by the setting's god of slaughter and glory as a way of testing the worthy and disposing of the unworthy. The god sets up the price schedule for the floors, paid by sacrificing increasingly exotic and expensive creatures for harder floors. When the price is paid, he sets up conditional one-way portals from far-away lands that creatures of the appropriate challenge rating can stumble through, which close when the floor is adequately challenging. He also sets up a vending machine shrine where the victorious adventurers can petition him or his minions for a material reward based on their combat performance.

In other words, the design purpose of a dungeon is for people to kill and die in the dungeon god's name, nothing more and nothing less.

It is artificial: it is the creation of gods with huge egos or that feels (feels because it is not proven unless it is the god associated with the concept of going in a damp cave to fight monsters and get money) that it is the best way to prove devotion to the concept they incarnate.
For something to not be artificial it needs to not be the result of conscious actions meant to cause its creation.

[Nifft]

Depends how big the adventuring party is.

Sufficient quantity of level 1 adventurers, fired at sufficient velocity, can take down any threat

Jocks fall, everybody dies?

[Maat Mons]

The most plausible example of this trope I've ever seen was in a game called Enchanted Cave.

In that game, the entire dungeon was rigged to trap the souls of anyone slain within it. And those trapped souls were used as fuel to generate immense magical power. A tiny fraction of this power was used to conjure treasures to lure adventurers into the trap, and monsters to kill them.

Obviously, nobody knew this is what was powering the dungeon. Especially not the adventurers going into the dungeon. And the dark wizard who ran the thing made sure the possible rewards seemed very tempting relative to the risk.

Most people who went adventuring in the dungeon came back with riches and exciting tales. Unless they were dumb enough to just keep going back in. Then they were basically guaranteed to get unlucky sooner or later.

But even with only a small fraction of the adventurers being harvested, such is the power innate in a soul that the all the great wealth carried out by the living adventurers still only represented a minute potion of the energies the dark wizard collected.



This doesn't translate to D&D very well though. Here, a soul is worth a flat 10 xp, no matter the level of the being it came from. And 10 xp isn't going to get you more than 250 gp-worth of magic item. The whole idea isn't even close to economical at those rates.

[Quentinas]

The most plausible example of this trope I've ever seen was in a game called Enchanted Cave.

In that game, the entire dungeon was rigged to trap the souls of anyone slain within it. And those trapped souls were used as fuel to generate immense magical power. A tiny fraction of this power was used to conjure treasures to lure adventurers into the trap, and monsters to kill them.

Obviously, nobody knew this is what was powering the dungeon. Especially not the adventurers going into the dungeon. And the dark wizard who ran the thing made sure the possible rewards seemed very tempting relative to the risk.

Most people who went adventuring in the dungeon came back with riches and exciting tales. Unless they were dumb enough to just keep going back in. Then they were basically guaranteed to get unlucky sooner or later.

But even with only a small fraction of the adventurers being harvested, such is the power innate in a soul that the all the great wealth carried out by the living adventurers still only represented a minute potion of the energies the dark wizard collected.



This doesn't translate to D&D very well though. Here, a soul is worth a flat 10 xp, no matter the level of the being it came from. And 10 xp isn't going to get you more than 250 gp-worth of magic item. The whole idea isn't even close to economical at those rates.

The idea could work if the souls of the slayed become soul larvae (if for example was connected to Hades ) so it could be a good income for Night hags and similar monster who use these , from at least the forgotten realm wiki

[reddir]

i remember reading somewhere on this forum that dungeons could be made.

iirc, it was an intelligent item with summon monster traps and would buy new stronghold spaces.....

I looked into Stronghold Builder's Guide for cost of spaces...it was weird? I am not very familiar with that book, just skimed it...

It seems the cheapest space is 200 gp (basic study) but that comes with a desk and bookshelves and some other basics. And going down underground (past the basement) by 1 level adds 400 gp to each room's cost.

So the minimum cost seems to be 600 gp for each room with basic funiture?

[Curelomosaurus]

As for buying a dungeon, Stronghold Builder's Guidebook might actually be useful (hear me out):

Your dungeon is going to be disputed (as the town's adventurers are fighting the various monster factions for control) and likely lawless (as it's basically a worg-eat-worg environment). That alone gets you a 15% discount on all traps and rooms.

Additionally, it's stocked with high-CR, hostile monsters, which is also worth a discount. Say you have 25 levels corresponding to monster CRs, with several CR 25s on the bottom level (say a wyrm gold dragon, a great wyrm blue dragon, and an advanced pit fiend). That's an additive 25% discount with free monsters, and so long as the monsters have wildly different outlooks and alignments, they'll keep each other in check and not escape to reign terror upon your town.

So far you have 40% of your price off. Build your dungeon in warm hills or plains, and make it easy to attack from all sides. Buy your supplies from a small city at least 17 miles (build your town after you build the dungeon). This ups your discount to 60%.

Have the townspeople provide free labor for a 30% discount, reducing your total price to 28% of the original.

Use the Dragon Magazine haggling rules for a 20% discount on everything (total price is now 22.4% of the original) and join the League of Boot and Trail from Song and Silence for another 20% discount, provided you can convince the League to count your dungeon as adventuring gear (not too hard with Diplomancy). Your final price is just 18% of the original, making a dungeon at least somewhat feasible.

To keep your dungeon restocked, just add a few one-way portals to Acheron, Hades, or the Underdark and let monsters wander in. With a few homonculi/kobolds/effigies to repair traps, and perhaps a few repeating traps of fabricate to make loot, your dungeon will be effectively self-sufficient.

[Curelomosaurus]

I looked into Stronghold Builder's Guide for cost of spaces...it was weird? I am not very familiar with that book, just skimed it...

It seems the cheapest space is 200 gp (basic study) but that comes with a desk and bookshelves and some other basics. And going down underground (past the basement) by 1 level adds 400 gp to each room's cost.

So the minimum cost seems to be 600 gp for each room with basic funiture?

[Sorry for the double post]

With the discounts I mentioned, it would only be 108 gp per room.

[reddir]

Hmmm, does this mean the corpses of the monsters disappear? Honestly if I kill a thing with claws and hide then I would expect to just take the claws and hide from the dead body.

That would work for normal animals and some monsters, but would make it hard to place usable weapons/armor/magic for each encounter in the resetting dungeon in a way that makes sense. I was trying to come up with a single mechanic that would allow for all the usual treasure types.

I figured a single unreal trope of the corpses being replaced by 'loot' in a manufactured dungeon would be easier to swallow.

Another thought from Bucky's post below (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24584552&postcount=17) is to have each room give a token of some sort once defeated, and there being something like an altar in the boss room where one could turn in all the tokens for rewards.


...the "mandatory service (via substitutes)" seems like a very good fit for Feudalist mentality.

For "service via substitutes", I was thinking it would give 'Adventurers' who are not actually 'Heroes' a daily job. Level 5 Adventurers might get tired of having a good chance of dieing all the time and decide to rent out their services to enter CR 1 or 2 dungeon levels in place of those who can pay them to take their place. This would most likely be for merchants and craftsfolk.

Nobles would probably do this with their guards or retainers.


This is for your world, though, isn't it? It's easier for me to help you with your specifics, and then later steal the bits which work for my world(s).

I was trying to find a reasonable general mechanic for installing a dungeon which everyone could use, or at least consider 'okay'.

The uses to which I intend to put it are varied. A few thoughts I had:
1) A village out in nowhere that pools its resources to get some small dungeon installed in the hope of luring tourists and adventure seekers, or at the very least provide a steady source of xp and treasure for their own people. If it is an 'animal only' dungeon, it could be a steady source of food with very controlled hunting conditions - even if there is a drought or winter weather.
2) A noble somewhere wants a good way to train their soldiers in true deadly combat, so they can gain xp in PC classes rather than stick to Warrior or Adept. (a houserule from, I think, SKR)
3) An adventuring party or guild decides it just makes more sense to get xp/treasure from a single replenishing dungeon source in their backyard. It is bad enough they have to risk their lives for this stuff, why spend maybe months trying to find a new dungeon each time?


Regarding the price of a dungeon, what if it wasn't gold that improved the rewards, but rather the souls of the dungeon's victims? Then you'd get some minor noble sacrificing innocent maidens to improve his dungeon's yield, but then on the other hand a dungeon might become deadly enough over time that it simply "evolves" without deliberate sacrifices.

That's a bit dark for some games, but it gives a reason why the dungeon is trying to kill the PCs.

Great! Another 'commodity' to pay with. What do you think is a reasonable price?

Like for level 1 (CR 1), maybe sacrifice 100 level 1 characters? Is that too many, to few?
Same for each other level, 100 x same level characters? Or make the cost progressive? I figure the difficulty (and therefore price) of obtaining higher level characters to sacrifice does end up making this a progressive cost.

EDIT -- "same level characters or same CR monsters", to keep from necessarily going Lord of the Flies here.

[reddir]

I think it would make more sense to have portals to Carceri or some other dungeon world pop up in the ground. People find them and take control of the entrances, then get paid to let people go into the portals to loot the other world. Just assuming monsters can't come out but items can; it could be random planes or dungeon planes specifically.

I LOVE the idea of portals to "Dungeon Worlds"! It would make it so much easier.

The price given for buying a basic 2-way portal is 150,000 gp. Simple, straightforward, no fiddliness.

BUT....I looked up Carceri (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Carceri) and it does not seem like an actual "Dungeon World"?

Is there an actual realm that would function as a Dungeon World, starting at CR 1 or so and getting harder as one goes deeper or further in? Such a place would entirely solve my question here. I could just flavor that some places have specific types of 'monsters' due to whatever.

[reddir]

I don't think this is an idea that really makes sense in D&D. It definitely wouldn't work as a way of making money, and while it would work as a way for adventurers to gain XP, there's no advantage to building a dungeon to have the fights in, as opposed to an arena of some sort.

It depends on how it is done and why it works that way.

As for why dungeon and not arena - to keep the 'feel' of dungeons and delving, just a trope thing.

[reddir]

It is easy and cheap to make a dungeon in dnd: it costs exactly as much as the loot in it + the cost of building or finding raising and teaching the monsters in it.
In the end it is worth it to spend more than what the adventurers gains in money because the adventurers gains xp so there is resource generation.

For story reasons, I am wanting something less clinical than this. I want those who enter to fight 'real' monster, for the monsters to respawn fairly quickly, and to have the treasures which come out to be new to the setting (not just crafted recently and sent to the dungeon).

[reddir]

I think the best implementation in terms of world-building is that the dungeons are not artificial, but rather they're set up by the setting's god of slaughter and glory as a way of testing the worthy and disposing of the unworthy. The god sets up the price schedule for the floors, paid by sacrificing increasingly exotic and expensive creatures for harder floors. When the price is paid, he sets up conditional one-way portals from far-away lands that creatures of the appropriate challenge rating can stumble through, which close when the floor is adequately challenging. He also sets up a vending machine shrine where the victorious adventurers can petition him or his minions for a material reward based on their combat performance.

In other words, the design purpose of a dungeon is for people to kill and die in the dungeon god's name, nothing more and nothing less.

This is great flavor!

Do you have thoughts on what the price might be for each level? How many creatures of what price for each level?

Also, which deity might like to do this? I mostly like to think in terms of canon deities - can always rename and tweak it if needed, but having a pre-developed one helps.
This even sort of fits with the feel of Valhalla if the adventurers go spend their rewards to party every night.

The idea of the shrine where adventurers get their rewards is brilliant. Much better and more in-world than the mmo loot thing I was going to do.

[reddir]

... the god associated with the concept of going in a damp cave to fight monsters and get money...

Is there such a deity, even tangentially? That would make this a lot more in-setting.

1) Cleric prays, maybe for many days, maybe sacrifices all spells slots for those days.
2) Poof! Deity manifests the dungeon.
3) Everyone happy!

[reddir]

The most plausible example of this trope I've ever seen was in a game called Enchanted Cave.

In that game, the entire dungeon was rigged to trap the souls of anyone slain within it. And those trapped souls were used as fuel to generate immense magical power. A tiny fraction of this power was used to conjure treasures to lure adventurers into the trap, and monsters to kill them.

Obviously, nobody knew this is what was powering the dungeon. Especially not the adventurers going into the dungeon. And the dark wizard who ran the thing made sure the possible rewards seemed very tempting relative to the risk.

Most people who went adventuring in the dungeon came back with riches and exciting tales. Unless they were dumb enough to just keep going back in. Then they were basically guaranteed to get unlucky sooner or later.

But even with only a small fraction of the adventurers being harvested, such is the power innate in a soul that the all the great wealth carried out by the living adventurers still only represented a minute potion of the energies the dark wizard collected.

Another very flavorful write up for such a dungeon!

[reddir]

The idea could work if the souls of the slayed become soul larvae (if for example was connected to Hades ) so it could be a good income for Night hags and similar monster who use these , from at least the forgotten realm wiki

2 questions (beyond my possibly lamentable ignorance of soul larvae and Night Hags):

1) Would it be an unquestionably evil act to set this up, or ask one of them to set this up for you?

2) Do you think a price of some sort is needed to make this 'fair', or is the occasional loss of an adventurer's soul price enough?

----

I can even see this being a progressive affair, where they start with just 1 level and then 'expand the enterprise' as the 'income' justifies 'further investment' of deeper more challenging levels.

[reddir]

With the discounts I mentioned, it would only be 108 gp per room.

So the 600 gp base price was accurate?

I read your previous post and you give a lot to work with, but I just don't have a baseline to understand the Stonghold Builder's Guide (I have discovered that outside of a few specific areas, I am quite stupid unless people tell me things directly).

From how you started and what others have said, I assume the base prices for most constructions (without the discount ideas) are quite high.

From your own perspective and what you think to be 'fair' for a game, what price would you feel is both 'in-setting' and 'proper price for expected returns' for having a dungeon built?

[Quentinas]

2 questions (beyond my possibly lamentable ignorance of soul larvae and Night Hags):

1) Would it be an unquestionably evil act to set this up, or ask one of them to set this up for you?

2) Do you think a price of some sort is needed to make this 'fair', or is the occasional loss of an adventurer's soul price enough?

----

I can even see this being a progressive affair, where they start with just 1 level and then 'expand the enterprise' as the 'income' justifies 'further investment' of deeper more challenging levels.

Well is harvesting the souls of who died here and probably use them for dark magic/to trade/ to empower ritual. Technically is a business involving souls, is the same as Enchanted cave, but i'm quite sure that who is behind the dungeon would be evil .
I would use who built /who is selling the dungeon bluffing about this fact, and that inside there are his treasure, but a ritual gone wrong basically create monsters each time someone enter.
In realty there could be a Night hag summoning/binding monsters to harvest souls killing the adventurers not putting them too strong, so is a "normal" thing if someone doesn't come out, he died in the dungeon . But the treasure are inside it so probably many will go inside to gain the treasures.

A mechanical way to adjust the level of monsters could be putting someone at the entrance who use "Know greatest enemy" so they know what CR they should put for example

[reddir]

Well is harvesting the souls of who died here and probably use them for dark magic/to trade/ to empower ritual. Technically is a business involving souls, is the same as Enchanted cave, but i'm quite sure that who is behind the dungeon would be evil .
I would use who built /who is selling the dungeon bluffing about this fact, and that inside there are his treasure, but a ritual gone wrong basically create monsters each time someone enter.


For my purposes, the seller doesn’t even have to make excuses. They could make money from both sides - charge for installing the farmable dungeon, charge the Night Hag for setting up the soul lure.

I suppose it might not be evil to ask for a farmable dungeon if one doesn’t know what happens to the souls of the dead?

[Quentinas]

For my purposes, the seller doesn’t even have to make excuses. They could make money from both sides - charge for installing the farmable dungeon, charge the Night Hag for setting up the soul lure.

I suppose it might not be evil to ask for a farmable dungeon if one doesn’t know what happens to the souls of the dead?

If one doesn't know no is not evil the question

[shaikujin]

So build your own dungeon?
I like it!

I second using Stronghold Builder's Guide.

Modifiers -
1) Potential Income (annual income is 1% of Stronghold cost)
2) Monster Lair nearby (EL 99 to get 99% discount on Stronghold costs)


Fluff for income is a huge mine. Mainly iron ore, some gold, plus maybe a mix of other special materials. This is so that the monster inhabitants can have captured slaves mine up iron to smelt and craft into weapons/armor.
Plus some supporting agriculture like mushrooms and Rothe for food and leather.

Lair is built into the Stronghold, and income source is under their control.
Annual recurring income basically the loot that the monsters carry.

For the iron, crafting uses 1/3 of the cost in materials. So every 1gp of mined iron gets translated into 3gp worth of armor/weapon.

Mining up gold nuggets is straightforward and is considered treasure. Or ahem, can be considered materials for making coined currency. With 1 gp worth of gold ore being minted into 3 gp of coins.

These will make up the monsters' gear.



To meet the 4 x EL 99 encounter requirement, simplest way is to make 4 EL 99 traps.
In the trap section, Search DC and Disable Device DC can both be increased at 200 gp per point. Each point of DC increase beyond 30 will also increases the CR rating by 2. So it costs about 10,000 gp per trap.

The dungeon lair can have more than 4 encounters. It just that the 4 highest ELs will be used to determine the 99% discount. Time to add more encounters with actual monsters. We can add thousands of EL 1 to EL 20 encounters without any impact to an EL 99 dungeon/lair.



Quick calculation - say the town can buy spell casting services to awaken a squirrel to 20 HD. Convince the squirrel to take up the Landlord feat somehow and be the master of it's own dungeon.

At 20 HD, the Landlord feat provides 800,000 gp. With our 99% discount, we can have a Stronghold worth 80,000,000 gp. That's should be enough budget for the Stronghold/dungeon. If not, awaken multiple squirrels and have them pool their 80 mil budget each into an even more expensive Stronghold.

Annual income for a 80 mil stronghold is 800,000 gp. With crafting, that becomes 2.4 mil of loot per year.
Now we just need some to populate it with topiary/slaves/fast breeding monsters/awakened animals/black pudding in self resetting sword + CLW trap/self resetting gate traps etc.


Edit: As noob pointed out below, I made a calculation mistake for income, it should be based on the discounted cost rather than the full cost. So instead of 800,000 gp per year, it's only 8,000 gp annually. Solution is as noob says, get more squirrels! :D

[noob]

1) Potential Income (annual income is 1% of Stronghold cost)
2) Monster Lair nearby (EL 99 to get 99% discount on Stronghold costs)
You made a mistake: because the cost is reduced the income is reduced too because it is based on cost and not on "cost before discount".(I did read the handbook and this interpretation I did is technically legitimate)
But it does not matters because you can instead of using the income from the strongholds make the strongholds directly be made out of precious and valuable stuff and thus each squirrel instantly produce a massive amount of wealth and this without a need for the strongholds to exploit slaves.

[shaikujin]

You made a mistake: because the cost is reduced the income is reduced too because it is based on cost and not on "cost before discount".(I did read the handbook and this interpretation I did is technically legitimate)
But it does not matters because you can instead of using the income from the strongholds make the strongholds directly be made out of precious and valuable stuff and thus each squirrel instantly produce a massive amount of wealth and this without a need for the strongholds to exploit slaves.

You are are right, I miscalculated the income :D

[Curelomosaurus]

To meet the 4 x EL 99 encounter requirement, simplest way is to make 4 EL 99 traps.
In the trap section, Search DC and Disable Device DC can both be increased at 200 gp per point. Each point of DC increase beyond 30 will also increases the CR rating by 2. So it costs about 10,000 gp per trap.

The dungeon lair can have more than 4 encounters. It just that the 4 highest ELs will be used to determine the 99% discount. Time to add more encounters with actual monsters. We can add thousands of EL 1 to EL 20 encounters without any impact to an EL 99 dungeon/lair.

Sadly, the monster lair discount only applies to hostile monsters, so traps wouldn't work. Although, in line with the squirrel thing, it's possible to get an awakened animal up to crazy CRs (upwards of 60) for large discounts if you apply every animal-compatible template or NPC trait before they're awakened and add acquired templates like Xorvintaal Exarch after they're awakened. What's the CR for a 20 HD awakened squirrel?

[noob]

Sadly, the monster lair discount only applies to hostile monsters, so traps wouldn't work. Although, in line with the squirrel thing, it's possible to get an awakened animal up to crazy CRs (upwards of 60) for large discounts if you apply every animal-compatible template or NPC trait before they're awakened and add acquired templates like Xorvintaal Exarch after they're awakened. What's the CR for a 20 HD awakened squirrel?

Can traps can turn into monsters with the right shenanigans like trap haunts?

[Curelomosaurus]

So the 600 gp base price was accurate?

I read your previous post and you give a lot to work with, but I just don't have a baseline to understand the Stonghold Builder's Guide (I have discovered that outside of a few specific areas, I am quite stupid unless people tell me things directly).

From how you started and what others have said, I assume the base prices for most constructions (without the discount ideas) are quite high.

From your own perspective and what you think to be 'fair' for a game, what price would you feel is both 'in-setting' and 'proper price for expected returns' for having a dungeon built?

Yes, the 600 gp price is on the nose. As for how expensive strongholds are, the sample strongholds in the book start at 90,000 go and end in the millions... So yeah, the pricing is ridiculously costly unless discount rules are abused heavily.

EDIT: As for making traps into monsters, that's out of my area of expertise. I know things like trap haunts can do so, but I don't recall that you can purchase them.

[noob]

Yes, the 600 gp price is on the nose. As for how expensive strongholds are, the sample strongholds in the book start at 90,000 go and end in the millions... So yeah, the pricing is ridiculously costly unless discount rules are abused heavily.

EDIT: As for making traps into monsters, that's out of my area of expertise. I know things like trap haunts can do so, but I don't recall that you can purchase them.

Maybe use haunt shift(a spell) on a skeleton(created with a spell and a corpse) or something to make the skeleton possess a trap?

[shaikujin]

Sadly, the monster lair discount only applies to hostile monsters, so traps wouldn't work. Although, in line with the squirrel thing, it's possible to get an awakened animal up to crazy CRs (upwards of 60) for large discounts if you apply every animal-compatible template or NPC trait before they're awakened and add acquired templates like Xorvintaal Exarch after they're awakened. What's the CR for a 20 HD awakened squirrel?


Yup, that's where the thousands of CR 1 - CR 20 hostile monsters come in.
The 4 highest EL of the lair doesn't need to be hostile.

[Maat Mons]

If you need a hostile monster nearby for the discount, just make it a purely aquatic one. Nobody actually has to go swimming in the pond that contains the vorpal goldfish.

[Curelomosaurus]

Vorpal goldfish? :smalleek:

And here I always thought goldfish were bludgeoning weapons... :smallbiggrin:

[noob]

Vorpal goldfish? :smalleek:

And here I always thought goldfish were bludgeoning weapons... :smallbiggrin:

While goldfish are bludgeoning their teeth are blunt, slashing and piercing at once so their teeth can be vorpal.

[Doctor Despair]

In terms of the cost of building a structure, you can save a lot of gold by using a Lyre of Building. If you can't roll less than an 18 on a perform check, you can build the whole thing as deep (or high) as you want very, very quickly. Then you'd only have to worry about the magical contents and denizens.

[Gavinfoxx]

In terms of the cost of building a structure, you can save a lot of gold by using a Lyre of Building. If you can't roll less than an 18 on a perform check, you can build the whole thing as deep (or high) as you want very, very quickly. Then you'd only have to worry about the magical contents and denizens.

Lyres of building can't do more than basic kinds of buildings, nothing that requires skilled labor, just massive amounts of unskilled and simple labor. They're useful, but not amazing. For other options, look at my post-scarcity handbook.

[reddir]

So people have been giving me good ideas for flavoring the concept as well as how to lower the RAW cost of building the dungeon. Thank you for your good ideas. They are appreciated and useful in tweaking how the dungeon idea might be used or presented.

However, what I am really looking for is a "fair" price for the dungeon.

I am looking at an infinitely mineable source of xp and treasures, limited by CR of each dungeon level and (at first) how quickly parties can fight through the dungeon.

I feel there should be a cost of some sort to make it fair to have such a mine nearby, whether in gp value, lives sacrificed (monster or sapient), increased death rate in the dungeon (for some other entity to harvest), or some periodic 'outbreak' of the dungeon monsters endangering the nearby farms and settlements.

What seems a fair price to you all?

[shaikujin]

So people have been giving me good ideas for flavoring the concept as well as how to lower the RAW cost of building the dungeon. Thank you for your good ideas. They are appreciated and useful in tweaking how the dungeon idea might be used or presented.

However, what I am really looking for is a "fair" price for the dungeon.

I am looking at an infinitely mineable source of xp and treasures, limited by CR of each dungeon level and (at first) how quickly parties can fight through the dungeon.

I feel there should be a cost of some sort to make it fair to have such a mine nearby, whether in gp value, lives sacrificed (monster or sapient), increased death rate in the dungeon (for some other entity to harvest), or some periodic 'outbreak' of the dungeon monsters endangering the nearby farms and settlements.

What seems a fair price to you all?

Using Stronghold Builder rules, to get an annual auto-renewing income (in our case, what adventurers can loot from the dungeon) is 1% of the Stronghold cost.

So first, determine the GP value of an encounter from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm


Eg, a CR 6 encounter should give 2,000 gp.
The Stronghold for CR 6 should then cost 200,000 gp to provide 1 such encounter a year.

To provide 1 CR 6 encounter everyday, multiply the cost by 365 (works out to 73 mil).
The CR 6 monster/encounter comes free, courtesy of auto resetting Gate traps.

[reddir]

Eg, a CR 6 encounter should give 2,000 gp.
The Stronghold for CR 6 should then cost 200,000 gp to provide 1 such encounter a year.

To provide 1 CR 6 encounter everyday, multiply the cost by 365 (works out to 73 mil).
The CR 6 monster/encounter comes free, courtesy of auto resetting Gate traps.


This seems...excessive, obscenely so.

But is this the actual fair value? Am I just not thinking straight on this?

[noob]

This seems...excessive, obscenely so.

But is this the actual fair value? Am I just not thinking straight on this?
Making money out of nothing is expensive.
Also it is for a fortress with only one income source but a fortress can have more than one income source.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't think there should, or could be a fair value, because such an income generating dungeon is utterly decoupled from anything resembling an economy.

[reddir]

Making money out of nothing is expensive.
Also it is for a fortress with only one income source but a fortress can have more than one income source.

---


Chapter 1 describes how you can incorporate an income source into your stronghold’s construction costs; such sources typically return a value of about 1% of the stronghold’s cost per year. If you have paid for it in this way, you don’t have to build the infrastructure or hire the hands to help make money from these resources on your land.
....
If you are particularly aggressive about building the area around your stronghold into a little empire, the DM could even decide to award a yearly payment to represent the profits the place generates. This should never be higher than 5% of what the stronghold cost to build in the first place, and it should most often be closer to 1–2%.


Table 1–3: Nearby Feature Modifiers to Stronghold Price
Characteristic Modifier
Site controls income source +10%
Nearby potential income source + 5%

Income Sources: ...Each income source provides 1% of the stronghold’s final price annually as pure profit—above and beyond labor costs and other expenses...

Potential income sources require some work before they start generating income. You may accomplish this by spending an additional 5% of the stronghold’s final cost at some point (essentially purchasing a controlled income source in two installments). This expenditure covers the income source’s start-up costs. Alternatively, you can complete an adventure such as clearing the gem mines of undead or completing a diplomatic mission to earn timber-harvesting rights from nearby centaurs....

These seem to suggest the income is passive and incidental - something that just sort of happens without extra effort or expense on the owner's part.

For the setup I suggested, maybe the 1% could be what is collected as tax or entry fees for using the dungeon. It is the portion that goes to the governement or owners, not what is available to the delvers (in the example of a farm or mine, this would be wages and materials and tools used for and by the workers).

Using your example of "a CR 6 encounter should give 2,000 gp": (1/day, 365d/year = 2k * 365 = 730,000 gp brought out each year)
5% tax: = 730k * .05 (tax) = 36,500; / .01 (1% max income) = 3.65 million
10% tax: = 7.3 million
25% tax: = 18.25 million
50% tax: = 36.5 million

This still seems high to me for a single encounter room farmable only once per day.

EDIT -- Something is obviously wrong with my numbers, will come back to check in a few minutes.
EDIT 2 -- I couldn't find the command to show 'strikeout' text, so simply used green for the new corrected numbers.

[Gavinfoxx]

Guys guys. The main issue is that running a business using a combination of stronghold builders guide and dungeon masters guide 2 rules is CRAP. Seriously, the books just doesn't work for modeling am economy or anything. I believe the Frank and K tomes had a good update to it for running businesses and such... Ah, here I think: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

[reddir]

Guys guys. The main issue is that running a business using a combination of stronghold builders guide and dungeon masters guide 2 rules is CRAP. Seriously, the books just doesn't work for modeling am economy or anything. I believe the Frank and K tomes had a good update to it for running businesses and such... Ah, here I think: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

Hmm, looked at that and it makes sense....the best I can figure using those rules is a sort of tourist place with whatever relevant capitalization (the dungeon), and resource input (furniture, furnishings, decorations, snacks, etc; 1/3 of expected earnings, same as crafting), with a risk factor to account for each encounter - maybe starting with 1 / 2 hours risk factor (free) to give a CR 1 encounter every 2 hours (12/day) to whoever want to risk their lives for the fun/treasure.

[shaikujin]

This still seems high to me for a single encounter room farmable only once per day.
green for the new corrected numbers.

Firstly, you have to consider that the returns are perpetual and automatic.

Plus, the returns could simply be for treasure=like goods like iron/gold.
You can put in fabricate traps to create items worth 3x the price.

If you need cheaper solutions, then just pay for a simple auto resetting gate traps to gate in monsters with their own loot.


A good rule of thumb is to use what is the expected loot adventurers can get to determine the cost. Avoid having a 2,000 gp investment return 2,000 gp everyday if you can. Or every adventurer will want to make their own dungeons instead of going to this town's dungeon.

[reddir]

Firstly, you have to consider that the returns are perpetual and automatic.

I get that, but still feel that waiting for 100 years just to break even on an investment is asking a lot.


Plus, the returns could simply be for treasure=like goods like iron/gold.
You can put in fabricate traps to create items worth 3x the price.

I am hoping to avoid this sort of thing. Just looking for a good baseline.


If you need cheaper solutions, then just pay for a simple auto resetting gate traps to gate in monsters with their own loot.

I need to look into this. I guess I have been too conditioned to not think of Gate-"shenanigans" that I just never considered it for this. But it certainly might be the best and most reasonable paid option (as different from simply petitioning a deity or allowing it to be set up for nefarious things like soul-harvesting).


A good rule of thumb is to use what is the expected loot adventurers can get to determine the cost. Avoid having a 2,000 gp investment return 2,000 gp everyday if you can. Or every adventurer will want to make their own dungeons instead of going to this town's dungeon.

I want a price high enough to disuade this, but not so high that it takes more than a couple of decades to start making a profit. Though as others have said the xp gain might be worth the gp loss.

[Curelomosaurus]

Since monsters automatically come with treasure, providing *non-passive* income when killed, I'd just have a few one-way portals leading into the dungeon to bring monsters (and thus loot) in and not bother adding costs for passive income.

[Doctor Despair]

I get that, but still feel that waiting for 100 years just to break even on an investment is asking a lot.


Isn't the premise of making a dungeon like this predicated on the idea that the makers are playing the long game? I'm not sure that it taking 100 years to break even is necessarily such a bad thing relative to it taking 20 or 30 years.

[reddir]

Isn't the premise of making a dungeon like this predicated on the idea that the makers are playing the long game? I'm not sure that it taking 100 years to break even is necessarily such a bad thing relative to it taking 20 or 30 years.

I can sort of see a Metropolis of some sort willing to invest for a century without return, but not any smaller polity.

30 years is near the maximum I can imagine for most. It might be a problem with a limitation in my thinking, I acknowledge.

[shaikujin]

I get that, but still feel that waiting for 100 years just to break even on an investment is asking a lot.
...
...
...
I want a price high enough to disuade this, but not so high that it takes more than a couple of decades to start making a profit. Though as others have said the xp gain might be worth the gp loss.


I can sort of see a Metropolis of some sort willing to invest for a century without return, but not any smaller polity.

30 years is near the maximum I can imagine for most. It might be a problem with a limitation in my thinking, I acknowledge.

Which would nicely explain why not every town would have their own perpetually respawning dungeon in their backyard. Only the most hardcore towns that want the prestige would do this.



If you wish to reduce the returns from 100 years to 30 years, then purchase the income source 6 more times.



Income sources can be purchased multiple times as
well. This can represent multiple income sources, or an
income source that’s more lucrative.





If you are particularly aggressive about building the area around your stronghold into a little empire, the DM could even decide to award a yearly payment to represent the profits the place generates. This should never be higher than 5% of what the stronghold cost to build in the first place, and it should most often be closer to 1–2%.


This extra yearly payment could the be the basis for the entrance fee you are charging. If you want a 1% earning from this, the adventurers pay an entrance fee worth 1% of the treasure given by the CR level.

If you want 5% earnings, entrance fee is 5%. So a CR 6 dungeon that gives 2,000 gp loot would have an entrance fee of 100 gp.


That being said, this is just finding mechanical rules to support how to do this.
If that's not important, just fluff it however you want.

Eg to remove the investment costs - perhaps the town was on top of a sealed ancient dungeon made by a some crazy rich lich with 73 mil to spare.
The townsfolks' petition to the gods granted them a vision of the location and how to unseal it.