Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?

[Drache64]

My character is level 5, at this point combat is so easy it's getting a bit boring.

Blade Song give me 21 AC with shield that's 26 AC.
I use the spell shadow blade at 3rd level for a weapon that does 3d8 damage.
I use the spell Blink to never get hit
I use the spell False Life to give me 40+ HP (higher than our tank)
I use the spell Booming Blade to deal an extra 1d8 on the hit and to make it take an extra 2d8 on its turn if it wants to move.

Typical Combat:
Round 1: Blink, Blade Song
Round 2: Shadow Blade, run up to hit, Booming Blade, Blink away.
Enemy's Turn: I'm not there so it moves and takes 2d8 damage. (total of 6d8+4 in one turn).

Round 3+: Blink back in, use cantrip booming blade for 4d8+4 damage every round, with a bonus +2d8 here and there when enemies move.

If blink ever fails I use shield, if they still hit I usually have False life to absorb most of the blow.

Combats have been ending recently with the party bloodied and worse for wear while I am usually untouched at max HP with temp HP to spare.

I picked this class originally because I thought the versatility of spells and combat would be the maximum amount of fun. I can easily change my play style on week if I so choose by simply sitting back and slinging fireballs like any normal wizard, but is this class broken?

TLDR: Lvl 5 Bladesinger with 26 AC, 40 speed, 4d8+4 DMG on weapon, 40+ HP, and blink.

Edit: thanks everyone, you've convinced me that the Blade Singer isn't OP or broken. So I can feel free to keep enjoying this class and my false sense of power guilt free :)

[Christew]

Yes, that is a fine way to play a Bladesinger. No, it is not broken.

[Nifft]

I think the general consensus is that the Bladesinger is a bit front-loaded, but at higher levels it falls behind some other subclasses.

[RSP]

So, on one encounter you’ve used both your 3rd level slots, and possibly a 1st or two (side note: Blink isn’t that great of a spell).

For the other 5-7 encounters, you have probably five 2nd level slots and lets say three first.

I’d imagine it would be better to save that Blink casting so you can get an extra round of attacking in (particularly after you level and get extra attack) and can use that other third for a second combat of SB.

[Amnestic]

Bladesinger's decent but not broken - some of its abilities like Extra Attack are essentially 'dead' features in favour of using Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade.

A DM can certainly find ways to deal damage to you if they want to. To take your case, you're burning a 2nd and 3rd level spell slot for this, which means at most you can do it twice per long rest. Blink isn't guaranteed to make you disappear and enemies who notice you doing this can prep Readied Actions. You take area damage or spells just the same as everyone else will. You can't use your blink by the third combat, so any potential dungeon crawl will see your efficiency drop instantly.

If you get to go nuclear with your spells then yes, you're pretty powerful because you're a wizard. Bladesong is a nice defensive boon to them, but most of the power is just from your raw spells, not the subclass.

[Contrast]

Combats have been ending recently with the party bloodied and worse for wear while I am usually untouched at max HP with temp HP to spare.

I mean I would really hope that a combat in which a wizard expended all of their highest level spell slots would be resolved in a way that didn't invovle the rest of the team taking a beating at all.

In terms of party resouces overall would those spell slots not be better spent on casting Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern or Fear or...etc so that the combats ended faster without the rest of your team getting injured as well?

But yes, you are correct - if you fight one combat a day and use all your spell slots on self buffs, you will indeed be quite good. That isn't really anything to do with you being a bladesinger though. One thing to consider is that with Blink for example you are expending a 3rd level spell slot and all you're accomplishing is encouraging your enemies to focus fire more effectively. They're still making the same number of attacks, they're just all focused at the rest of your team instead. You're expending spell slots to make the rest of your team take more damage and are surprised that they seem to be taking more damage?

[JNAProductions]

I mean I would really hope that a combat in which a wizard expended all of their highest level spell slots would be resolved in a way that didn't invovle the rest of the team taking a beating at all.

In terms of party resouces overall would those spell slots not be better spent on casting Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern or Fear or...etc so that the combats ended faster without the rest of your team getting injured as well?

But yes, you are correct - if you fight one combat a day and use all your spell slots on self buffs, you will indeed be quite good. That isn't really anything to do with you being a bladesinger though.

Echoing this, as it's pretty spot on.

[MaxWilson]

My character is level 5, at this point combat is so easy it's getting a bit boring.

Blade Song give me 21 AC with shield that's 26 AC.
I use the spell shadow blade at 3rd level for a weapon that does 3d8 damage.
I use the spell Blink to never get hit
I use the spell False Life to give me 40+ HP (higher than our tank)
I use the spell Booming Blade to deal an extra 1d8 on the hit and to make it take an extra 2d8 on its turn if it wants to move.

Typical Combat:
Round 1: Blink, Blade Song
Round 2: Shadow Blade, run up to hit, Booming Blade, Blink away.
Enemy's Turn: I'm not there so it moves and takes 2d8 damage. (total of 6d8+4 in one turn).

Round 3+: Blink back in, use cantrip booming blade for 4d8+4 damage every round, with a bonus +2d8 here and there when enemies move.

If blink ever fails I use shield, if they still hit I usually have False life to absorb most of the blow.

Combats have been ending recently with the party bloodied and worse for wear while I am usually untouched at max HP with temp HP to spare.

I picked this class originally because I thought the versatility of spells and combat would be the maximum amount of fun. I can easily change my play style on week if I so choose by simply sitting back and slinging fireballs like any normal wizard, but is this class broken?

TLDR: Lvl 5 Bladesinger with 26 AC, 40 speed, 4d8+4 DMG on weapon, 40+ HP, and blink.

No, the class isn't broken. Any wizard can gain a similar AC all the time (not just for a few minutes a day) just by multiclassing Fighter or Cleric, which lets them pick up a different subclass with its own awesome abilities like Portent.

Furthermore, you're still fairly fragile against attacks that target saves instead of AC, even something as simple as a Magma Mephit breath, and if you get incapacitated or paralyzed you instantly lose your Bladesong AC bonus--one minute you're fine, then you fail a save vs. Yeti gaze and suddenly your Bladesong is gone, you can't Shield, every hit is an auto-crit, and you're taking 40+ HP of damage per turn. On the other hand, healing is cheap in 5E especially once someone starts exploiting Aura of Vitality or Goodberry, so it's not like you'll have problems--but the point is that other PCs won't have problems either. E.g. Moon Druid has over 100 HP per short rest at this level, laughs at your 40 HP.

You've discovered your first powerful combo in 5E, but there are lots of others based on different classes/races/feats. Hopefully your fellow PCs discover their own combos soon so they can catch up and/or surpass you. If you tell us more about what classes they're playing, we might be able to suggest something.

[Drache64]

So, on one encounter you’ve used both your 3rd level slots, and possibly a 1st or two (side note: Blink isn’t that great of a spell).

For the other 5-7 encounters, you have probably five 2nd level slots and lets say three first.

I’d imagine it would be better to save that Blink casting so you can get an extra round of attacking in (particularly after you level and get extra attack) and can use that other third for a second combat of SB.

We play 1 maybe 2 encounters per session, its a slower puzzle based campaign, so that might be why I am not thinking about this. But at most I only ever have seen 3 combat encounters.


I mean I would really hope that a combat in which a wizard expended all of their highest level spell slots would be resolved in a way that didn't invovle the rest of the team taking a beating at all.

In terms of party resouces overall would those spell slots not be better spent on casting Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern or Fear or...etc so that the combats ended faster without the rest of your team getting injured as well?

But yes, you are correct - if you fight one combat a day and use all your spell slots on self buffs, you will indeed be quite good. That isn't really anything to do with you being a bladesinger though. One thing to consider is that with Blink for example you are expending a 3rd level spell slot and all you're accomplishing is encouraging your enemies to focus fire more effectively. They're still making the same number of attacks, they're just all focused at the rest of your team instead. You're expending spell slots to make the rest of your team take more damage and are surprised that they seem to be taking more damage?

Fireball would have roasted half the party every time I would cast it, Scorching ray has been the better option when I need to target. And as a wizard I wasn't planning on tanking, do other parties usually have front line wizards? I figured hiding behind the paladin, moon druid, Tempest cleric, and beast master ranger would be no different than standing next to them with blink, except now I am not begging for heals. And to be fair they are limited to 2 encounters as well and usually are spending all their resources which is why I asked.


No, the class isn't broken. Any wizard can gain a similar AC all the time (not just for a few minutes a day) just by multiclassing Fighter or Cleric, which lets them pick up a different subclass with its own awesome abilities like Portent.

Furthermore, you're still fairly fragile against attacks that target saves instead of AC, even something as simple as a Magma Mephit breath, and if you get incapacitated or paralyzed you instantly lose your Bladesong AC bonus--one minute you're fine, then you fail a save vs. Yeti gaze and suddenly your Bladesong is gone, you can't Shield, every hit is an auto-crit, and you're taking 40+ HP of damage per turn. On the other hand, healing is cheap in 5E especially once someone starts exploiting Aura of Vitality or Goodberry, so it's not like you'll have problems--but the point is that other PCs won't have problems either. E.g. Moon Druid has over 100 HP per short rest at this level, laughs at your 40 HP.

You've discovered your first powerful combo in 5E, but there are lots of others based on different classes/races/feats. Hopefully your fellow PCs discover their own combos soon so they can catch up and/or surpass you. If you tell us more about what classes they're playing, we might be able to suggest something.

Multiclassing severely hampers the wizard who is built on their spell slots. Pushing your higher level spell slots back is quite a hefty price to pay compared to a bladesinger who doesn't have to. And to respond to your "furthermore" section of the comment, arent 50% of classes (if not 90%) screwed in that perfect storm scenario anyways? A moon druid can have more than 100 HP at level 5 because they turn into a creature that cuts off their optimized stats and any meaningful bonus actions. the 100 HP is like me blinking, instead of just not being there, the druid gets a pool of free HP in creature for to absorb the damage.

Additionally to everyone, I didn't think about this before (its become something I take for granted), but I use the Spell Point variant spell casting which give me 27 Spell Points.
lvl 3 = 5 pts
lvl 2 = 3 pts
lvl 1 = 2 pts

I typically use the following:
blink 5pts, 1x per encounter
shadow blade level 3, 1x per encounter

False life before the dungeon, and can arcane recovery the points back on a short rest to cast it again if I need to (3 points)

and then I have points left over for a scorching ray or shield, In combat I just use my cantrip booming blade.

I think perhaps spell point flexibility mixed with the low combat encounters might be attributing to the godlike feelings I get, but if you all say it's not broken (easing my guilt) and I have been able to run my strategy without any issues, then I can just keep doing what I am doing!

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Keravath]

No. Bladesinger is not broken.

Any full caster that is able to use all their high level spell slots in one encounter is going to trounce it unless the DM makes it even more challenging. It doesn't matter which sort of wizard you are. An evoker could have used fireball with or without the party present doing 8d6 damage for each casting (save for half) to every one of the enemy creatures within a 20' radius while expending exactly the same number of spell slots as you. This is 16d6 damage to every enemy within 20' (save for half) compared to your piddly 4d8+4 vs ONE target every round AND you take a full round to set it up by casting blink and blade singing.

For the same resource expenditure, the evoker will typically be doing FAR more damage and will end the encounter even faster.

Any wizard could potentially make the encounter extremely easy with one casting of hypnotic pattern placed in the right spot.

Any 5th level wizard that can afford to use both their 3rd level slots in one encounter is likely to make it easy.

Bladesinger is fun and can be cool in melee but they are a wizard first and wizards are strong when they have resources to use.

If your DM runs only one or two encounters in a day then the long rest classes have a BIG advantage, especially at higher levels, since they can cast anything they want for those two fights knowing that they won't likely run out of spell slots. On the other hand, if your adventuring day is typically 5-8 encounters of varying types and difficulty - the wizard who uses all their high level spell slots in the first encounter may not survive the day.

[Anymage]

I think perhaps spell point flexibility mixed with the low combat encounters might be attributing to the godlike feelings I get, but if you all say it's not broken (easing my guilt) and I have been able to run my strategy without any issues, then I can just keep doing what I am doing!

Thanks for the input everyone!

Bladesinger isn't broken. Another wizard could get right into the thick of things instead of having to spend their first turn buffing, and probably break more stuff in the process.

Playing a spell point variant wizard who only sees one or two encounters per day breaks things pretty badly. As mentioned above, when a daily resource class can nova all their powers in one go and doesn't have to worry about conserving, they're going to be much stronger by comparison.

For what it's worth, the DMG has a rest rule variant for people who think that multiple encounters per 24 hour period is unrealistic. If you want the game's mathematical pacing without the crush of encounters coming so quickly in game time, that might be a worthwhile change.

[MaxWilson]

Multiclassing severely hampers the wizard who is built on their spell slots. Pushing your higher level spell slots back is quite a hefty price to pay compared to a bladesinger who doesn't have to.

It's not that severe, and if you go Cleric 1 instead of Fighter 1 you don't lose spell slots anyway. You delay learning higher-level spells slightly compared to a Bladesinger, but you also get actual subclass features like Portent and Hypnotic Gaze. Since you're not really even casting spells like Fireball you must realize that having a tanky wizard can still contribute even without high-level spells: now imagine that your AC 21sh wizard now has an at-will non-concentration Hypnotic Gaze as well. The Bladesinger gets stuck slinging cantrips at a big monster whereas the Enchanter X/Forge Cleric 1 can just walk right up to it and disable it (with high-but-not-guaranteed probability), as many times per day as he wants. And unlike the Bladesinger, he isn't vulnerable to massed monster attacks just because he loses initiative or gets incapacitated, since his AC 21 is there all the time.

Bladesingers have their place too, and I'm not trying to say they're useless, but Bladesingers aren't outliers when it comes to durability.


And to respond to your "furthermore" section of the comment, arent 50% of classes (if not 90%) screwed in that perfect storm scenario anyways? A moon druid can have more than 100 HP at level 5 because they turn into a creature that cuts off their optimized stats and any meaningful bonus actions. the 100 HP is like me blinking, instead of just not being there, the druid gets a pool of free HP in creature for to absorb the damage.

Only sort of. An AC 21 Fighter or Paladin still has AC 21 and a bunch of HP even when incapacitated. A Bladesinger who's incapacitated drops to AC 16ish, loses the ability to Shield, and has ~10-20 fewer HP than the Fighter or Paladin. And remember again that incapacitation isn't your only vulnerability--it's any attack that bypasses AC, including weak breath weapons.

Does this make the Bladesinger bad? No! It's still rather good. But you asked if it was "broken", and it has enough vulnerabilities that it's not broken.



Additionally to everyone, I didn't think about this before (its become something I take for granted), but I use the Spell Point variant spell casting which give me 27 Spell Points.
lvl 3 = 5 pts
lvl 2 = 3 pts
lvl 1 = 2 pts

*snip*

I think perhaps spell point flexibility mixed with the low combat encounters might be attributing to the godlike feelings I get, but if you all say it's not broken (easing my guilt) and I have been able to run my strategy without any issues, then I can just keep doing what I am doing!

Shield definitely gets a lot stronger under DMG spell points, but I still wouldn't say that makes Bladesinger broken. Arguably Shield is broken under DMG spell points, since it is a must-have spell for any AC-oriented wizard, but that's a topic for a different thread, and others might say that Shield is merely excellent, not broken.



blink 5pts, 1x per encounter
shadow blade level 3, 1x per encounter

That's one round of every encounter spent doing essentially nothing (Action: Blink, bonus Action: activate Bladesong), and another round doing not that much (Shadow Blade, attack once for 3d8+Dex), and it costs a huge chunk of your daily spell points to do so. I'm a little bit surprised you wind up feeling godlike in this scenario. I can only infer that your DM compensates for "few combat" by having "bigger, tougher combats" which give you enough time (5-6 rounds maybe?) to make Blink and Shadow Blade pay off. Is that right?

Maybe consider not casting Blink? From what you say, everybody else in the party is more fragile than you are, and Blink is basically just a spell for encouraging enemies to attack the other PCs. You'd save a round and help keep your buddies alive longer.

[follacchioso]

False life lasts one hour, so if you short rest to use arcane recovery the temporary hit points expire.

[DarknessEternal]

We play 1 maybe 2 encounters per session, its a slower puzzle based campaign, so that might be why I am not thinking about this. But at most I only ever have seen 3 combat encounters.




Try convincing your group that they don't want to play 5e D&D then. It's ruleset is not designed for that.

[MoiMagnus]

If you're having slower campaign than the game was balanced for, and want still a balanced game, the DM should consider slower rest.

Like short rest = night of sleep and long rest = 2 days of resting (weekend)

[MaxWilson]

Try convincing your group that they don't want to play 5e D&D then. It's ruleset is not designed for that.

The 5E DMG disagrees with you on that.

[Contrast]

Fireball would have roasted half the party every time I would cast it, Scorching ray has been the better option when I need to target. And as a wizard I wasn't planning on tanking, do other parties usually have front line wizards? I figured hiding behind the paladin, moon druid, Tempest cleric, and beast master ranger would be no different than standing next to them with blink, except now I am not begging for heals. And to be fair they are limited to 2 encounters as well and usually are spending all their resources which is why I asked.

Scorching Ray is better that Fireball? Scorching Ray upcast to level 3 does 8d6 assuming all hit, the same as catching a single person with Fireball. So you couldn't ever position Fireball to hit 2 people without catching the rest of the team? All I can really say there then is that your combats must look very different than mine. Also I'm surprised you don't have a decent Dex as a combat focused bladesinger and aren't winning initiative occasionally and being able to lay down an AoE before lines engage. An example of why Bladersinger is not OP though perhaps - an Evocation wizard could be dropping Fireballs on top of the party all day long. You get good stuff but other subclasses do too.

Re tanking - you're the one who was saying that you had more HP than the tank and a high AC and were finishing combats untouched while everyone else was taking hits. My question to you is - is you being untouched benefitting the party or harming the party (keeping in mind you are expending a high level resources yourself to achieve this which could also be spent helping the rest of the party instead)?

To put this another way, the very first time I played 5E I played a swashbuckler rogue with Booming Blade. I was having great fun stabbing people and dashing away and was often finishing combats on full health due to making sure I was consistently not the easiest/most attractive target. However I quickly realised by making myself not the most attractive target, I was effectively pointing a big neon arrowo for our enemies at our squisher party members and saying 'hey these guys are more attractive targets than me'. Besides, if the fighter is standing alone taking all the aggro every fight, they're going to go down. That's just how 5E works. I realised there were times that it better served the party for me to stay in melee and present myself as a target. I took more damage but the other members of the party didn't take that damage. It's better for everyone in a 4 man party to take 50% damage than it is for 2 members to be on 100% while the other two are on 0%.

Its a team game and HP are a resource that you expend to help the team achieve victory. If you were concentrating on something really important to help the team win (as a bard player, Hypnotic Pattern has effectively ended many encounters before they even began and concentrating to deprieve large groups of enemies actions is huge) I would potentially agree that Blink was a good spell for you to be casting. I'm not sure +2d8*hit chance damage a turn is really that meaningful at the end of the day to justify expending another 3 level spell slot to protect - hell you could just recast it if you did drop concentration and Bladesong gives you a bonus to concentration saves.

[Alucard89]

It's not broken, but well build and played is imo one of two strongest subclasses for Wizard: second being Evoker imo. I know some people swear on Illusion but it requires cooperation and good will from both player and DM while other two are just mechanically great.

Bladesinger gets extra attack, very good AC and free CON bonus, allowing him to focus him on other stats and feats and INT bonus to damage.

However, Bladesinger is either very good or super good if you build him right.

1 Fighter/14 Bladesinger with dual wielding, Elven Accuracy and Tenser Transformation can wreck great DPR in a turn. VS AC 20 enemy using two Short Swords +1 (for the sake of example as you should have better stuff at this level) his DPR is 84 DPR. That is one of the best DPRs vs AC 20.

Not only that but in Tenser with 20 DEX he has 0.936 (93%) chance to hit! Legendary accuracy.

And he is still full caster Wizard with all good spells, simulacrum etc.

Once he has Simularcum at level 16 - he can also have Haste from sim on him, increasing his DPR in Tenser form vs AC 20 to 112 DPR

But his accuracy carries even further. His DPR with Haste and Tenser vs AC 24 is 95 with 78% chance to hit! That is really one of the best.

But when you don't want to go full ham with just 1 SPELL, you still have full arsenal of Wizard spells, fireballs, hypnotic patterns etc.

So yes, it's very good, but not broken. There are more broken builds out there.

[MoiMagnus]

Small note: the fact that you've "broken" the game defensively probably explain why the DM didn't change his playstyle.

1) DMs are much more quick to see the balance issues when a PC is just killing everything in sight without any real effort (which an evocation wizard would in this same campaign), than when the PC is making himself almost immortal.

2) When one of the PC is stronger offensively than the others, you can just increase the number of enemies. When one of the PC is stronger defensively than the other, increasing the difficulty of the encounter will affect the other PCs more than the "problematic" PC.
The bladesinger is not OP, however, that's a difficult subclass for your DM to balance in a low encounter-per-long-rest campaign.

[Drache64]

False life lasts one hour, so if you short rest to use arcane recovery the temporary hit points expire.

Yes, I was saying I can short rest later in the day, not right after.


Scorching Ray is better that Fireball? Scorching Ray upcast to level 3 does 8d6 assuming all hit, .
In my campaign, yes. I currently have Scorching Ray and Melf's Minute meteors, in the last few combats my team has always been spread out and enemies have been dispersed. So fireball would roast the party, it's even been hard to position the meteors so no friendlies get hurt. But Scorching Ray with a 20 in INT means I almost never miss, when I do miss with a few rays it's like an enemy making a DEX save for less damage.

Though in the last fight, the party was spread out and having a hard time with gargoyles that had ambushed them. I killed one, but the rest of the party was having a hard time with the other 3. I had an option: send 4d6 to one, and 4d6 to another, or spend no spell slots run up and deal 4d8+4 to one (possibly 6d8 if it tried to flee). I decided more damage to one, for no resources, was better.

Turns out it was. I left one with barely any life, the paladin got a good smite off to kill the other, then the cleric missed their attack but spiritual weapon hit with just enough Damage to finish off the gargoyle. On my next turn the beast master Ranger and moon druid were the only ones left fighting a gargoyle. On my turn I again did 4d8+4 damage and finished off the bad guy.

[Contrast]

For clarity, you're aware you can choose where to place a Fireball centre (including three dimensionally if your DM is willing to play ball)? You don't have to centre it on someone. I just finished playing a game today where one of our casters managed to place a Fireball 3 rounds into a combat such that it hit 6 enemies without catching any allies within the blast.

My bard has never caught an ally in Hypnotic Pattern (albeit he can cheat as a glamour bard - though again, just demonstrating Bladersingers aren't OP they just have their own strengths just like other classes/subclasses do).


or spend no spell slots run up and deal 4d8+4 to one (possibly 6d8 if it tried to flee). I decided more damage to one, for no resources, was better.

You spent a 3rd level spell slot to do 4d8+4. That is not no spell slots/no resources.

While I think casting Shadow Blade is likely not an efficient use of resources, you're clearly not being particularly strained combat wise and the game is about having fun more than it is about making efficient use of resources so if you want to run your Bladersinger as a melee fighter then you do you. The point I was making is that casting Blink doesn't seem like its really helping your team.

[Drache64]

No. Bladesinger isn't broken. Dragon sorcerer level 6 is.

Protector Aasimar Red Dragon Sorcerer with Elemental adept feat (Fire)

Action to activate Aasimar's Radiant Soul for extra sweet damage and flight speed.

Bonus action: Quicken Empowered Elemental Afinity FIREBALL

28 avg * 1,22 (Empower metamagic) +5 Elemental afinity +6 Radiant Soul.

45 avg AOE fire damage that ignores cover and fire resistence.

All in a single turn. No prebuff or concentration


Or just quicken empowered elemental afinity fireball that deals 40 avg damage
action for Empowered elemental afinity Fire bolt for 19 avg damage
It's 59 avg damage.

Wizard's fireball is avg 28 damage.

59 vs 28 is not even fair.

But that's just 1 Round. What if it's an illusion? What if it's holding Oteluke's resilient sphere? What if it has evasion? What do you do with the rest of combat?


For clarity, you're aware you can choose where to place a Fireball centre (including three dimensionally if your DM is willing to play ball)? You don't have to centre it on someone. I just finished playing a game today where one of our casters managed to place a Fireball 3 rounds into a combat such that it hit 6 enemies without catching any allies within the blast.

My bard has never caught an ally in Hypnotic Pattern (albeit he can cheat as a glamour bard - though again, just demonstrating Bladersingers aren't OP they just have their own strengths just like other classes/subclasses do).

You spent a 3rd level spell slot to do 4d8+4. That is not no spell slots/no resources.

While I think casting Shadow Blade is likely not an efficient use of resources, you're clearly not being particularly strained combat wise and the game is about having fun more than it is about making efficient use of resources so if you want to run your Bladersinger as a melee fighter then you do you. The point I was making is that casting Blink doesn't seem like its really helping your team.

I meant "no resources" as in "no more resources" I had already spent time in combat with shadow blade and blink, this was a decision if I should now spend more resources or just rely on the machine I set up.

I like getting the most bang for by buck when it comes to spell slots.

A fireball does 8d6 damage in a combat.

Shadow blade does 30d6+40 damage over 10 rounds in a combat. Assuming I don't lose concentration (+7 concentration check with advantage). At level 6 with multiattack I'll do 60d6+80 damage if combat goes 10 rounds.

Usually our combats last 5 rounds so that's 15d6+20 damage I have been getting, will be 30d6+40 next level.

Edit:
But I do have to add, everyone has thuroughly convinced me that the BS is not broken.

And I do think fireball has a place in my arsenal, I will add it to the spell book, but I didn't take it at level 5 and I made the right choice, I never would have been able to use it yet. I know you can choose where to place it but there's never been a combat where it would only hit enemies and not friendlies.

[JNAProductions]

But that's just 1 Round. What if it's an illusion? What if it's holding Oteluke's resilient sphere? What if it has evasion? What do you do with the rest of combat?



I meant "no resources" as in "no more resources" I had already spent time in combat with shadow blade and blink, this was a decision if I should now spend more resources or just rely on the machine I set up.

I like getting the most bang for by buck when it comes to spell slots.

A fireball does 8d6 damage in a combat.

Shadow blade does 30d6+40 damage over 10 rounds in a combat. Assuming I don't lose concentration (+7 concentration check with advantage). At level 6 with multiattack I'll do 60d6+80 damage if combat goes 10 rounds.

Usually our combats last 5 rounds so that's 15d6+20 damage.

That assumes you never miss.

Moreover, a Fireball does 8d6... Per enemy in the AoE. (Save for half, of course.) So, to equal 10 rounds of Shadow Blade, you need only hit about 5 enemies with it.

[Drache64]

That assumes you never miss.

Moreover, a Fireball does 8d6... Per enemy in the AoE. (Save for half, of course.) So, to equal 10 rounds of Shadow Blade, you need only hit about 5 enemies with it.

A fireball in a crowd of enemies is great, but against a single target Shadow Blade is better, and fireball is extremely situational, a situation in which I have not found myself in (maybe 1 time at level 3) but my DM very rarely sets up combat where a group of enemies are placed to where I can fireball them.

Also with an 18 in DEX, I very rarely miss in combat. But either way, this is showing potential damage, not assuming I hit. Just like 8d6 is assuming no one saves.

Edit:
I also want to add that I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion! Thank you!

[DarknessEternal]

The 5E DMG disagrees with you on that.

The same one suggesting 6-8 encounters per day?

[Drache64]

The same one suggesting 6-8 encounters per day?

I am not sure which one of you is right but 5+ encounters sounds more like a dungeon crawl vs RP focus.

I ran a session yesterday (3 person party), I wanted to go from 4-8pm (so 4 hours). The party passed through a ghost town they had previously visited, made camp in a cave, explored the cave for a brief moment, slept with a fire going so two orcs wandered in during the night investigating the fire. Warforged Barbarian on watch killed the two orcs while others slept. They broke camp in the morning, walked to an orc fortress to find is destroyed by 3 dryads and a giant elk. The dryads charmed their death cleric to attack the party.

They beat the encounter and it was 7:45pm. I wanted them to fight a phase spider next and have a conversation with a Copper Dragon, looking at the time I pulled the phase spider encounter out and went straight to the Copper Dragon conversation. We ended at 8:05+PM.

How the heck do you run 5-6+ encounters with a 4+ player party??

[JNAProductions]

Sessions don’t need to end with a long rest.

[Drache64]

Sessions don’t need to end with a long rest.

I currently have Galdur's Tower, and once I get Mordenkienens Magnificent Mansion there will be long rests a plenty.

[Alucard89]

The same one suggesting 6-8 encounters per day?

Heh, yeah. I even myself many times tried that formula but it just doesn't work for me (nor any DM I ever played with). Taloring story and narrative with "must place 6-8 encounters during adventure day" never really led to anything. When asked different groups of players if they prefer 6-8 encounters or 2-4 interesting ones with some story put into them, most always say they prefer those. Also from my experience past 4 encounters players are getting tired (unless it's a dungeon or some sort of "battle" or "castle storm" etc.) and prefer to go back to some roleplaying.

I never understood why they had to balance game around 6-8.... 3-5 interesting encounters are more worth than 6 "deadly' stat block encounters or 8 for the sake of resource drain.

Anyway, I digress.

Bladesinger is fine. It's very balanced and can be power house when min-maxed but overall it's not really broken.

infamous Nuclear Wizard build 1 Hexblade/Evoker Wizard - now that's 100% broken.

[micahaphone]

You're a wizard, with spell points, with few encounters per day. You could play without a subclass and still be OP. Bladesinger isn't the busted part here

[Amnestic]

I currently have Galdur's Tower, and once I get Mordenkienens Magnificent Mansion there will be long rests a plenty.

Spells or no you can only long rest once every 24 hours. Are you doing 5 minute adventuring days, starting at dawn and then doing nothing after two encounters, in bed before breakfast? Are your opponents just sat around doing nothing while the party spends three weeks to travel a single city block?

[MaxWilson]

The same one suggesting 6-8 encounters per day?

"...If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventures can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer."

I'm talking about the 5E DMG that tells you not to exceed 2-3 deadly encounters a day, and depending on how deadly they are possibly not more than 1.

See table "Adventuring Day XP" on DMG pg. 84 and the difficulty table on page 82, and do the math.


I am not sure which one of you is right but 5+ encounters sounds more like a dungeon crawl vs RP focus.

I ran a session yesterday (3 person party), I wanted to go from 4-8pm (so 4 hours). The party passed through a ghost town they had previously visited, made camp in a cave, explored the cave for a brief moment, slept with a fire going so two orcs wandered in during the night investigating the fire. Warforged Barbarian on watch killed the two orcs while others slept. They broke camp in the morning, walked to an orc fortress to find is destroyed by 3 dryads and a giant elk. The dryads charmed their death cleric to attack the party.

They beat the encounter and it was 7:45pm. I wanted them to fight a phase spider next and have a conversation with a Copper Dragon, looking at the time I pulled the phase spider encounter out and went straight to the Copper Dragon conversation. We ended at 8:05+PM.

How the heck do you run 5-6+ encounters with a 4+ player party??

You don't. You run fewer, deadlier encounters, just like DMG pg. 84 tells you to do. See https://kobold.club for a nice tool that will do the math for you.

[Christew]

A fireball does 8d6 damage in a combat.

Shadow blade does 30d6+40 damage over 10 rounds in a combat. Assuming I don't lose concentration (+7 concentration check with advantage). At level 6 with multiattack I'll do 60d6+80 damage if combat goes 10 rounds.

Yes, but any enemies that would drop to fireball but not shadow blade get to attack you back. Calculating damage over time in isolation neglects the potential damage that those enemies will deal over the coming rounds.

[Contrast]

Usually our combats last 5 rounds so that's 15d6+20 damage I have been getting, will be 30d6+40 next level.

So firstly, Shadow Blade isn't giving you 15d6+20 - I'm not quite sure where you got that number from but I'll show my working.

I assume your default fallback without Shadow Blade is a rapier so over 5 rounds Booming Blade and the rapier are giving you 10d8+20. Shadow Blade is giving you an additional 10d8. So 20d8+20 overall assuming no misses (110 damage).
When you get extra attack it sadly doesn't synergise with Booming Blade but your damage will increase up to 6d8+8 a turn or 30d8+40 over 5 turns (175 damage).

Meanwhile a fireball in the first round (lets be cautious and say you only hit 2 people) does 16d6. You then spend the next 4 rounds attacking normally for 8d8+16. This totals 16d6+8d8+16=108 damage.
As I mentioned - I was playing a game today where mid-combat our warlock managed to Fireball 6 people without catching anyone friendly which if that were you would be 48d6+8d8+16=220 damage.


Obviously we're making a lot of assumptions here assuming you hit every attack and enemies fail every save but Shadow Blade also requires maintaining concentration and its also generally better to do as much damage up front as you can (a dead enemy isn't doing damage to your teammates). Personally I'd generally speaking take the Fireball and 4 rounds of normal attacking over the Shadow Blade all things being equal.

I wasn't really intending to harp on about Fireball specifically however (as I mentioned, things like Fear which take people out of the fight are also game changers and remain potentially effective with fewer enemy combatants). I'm very surprised to hear that in a game with so few combats that your DM isn't at least partially relying on numbers to make up the difficulty but at the end of the day you know what you fight at your table better than we do and how the battles go and what spells might be useful at your table. If its working for you great. My point was if you're ending combats on full health while your allies are struggling you should probably be spending some time/resources figuring out how you can help them rather than doubling down on further buffing yourself with things like Blink.

I will say Melf's Minute Meteors is a pretty terrible spell that I don't think its worth your time preparing under any circumstances I can think of. :smalltongue:

[Drache64]

Spells or no you can only long rest once every 24 hours. Are you doing 5 minute adventuring days, starting at dawn and then doing nothing after two encounters, in bed before breakfast? Are your opponents just sat around doing nothing while the party spends three weeks to travel a single city block?

No, we get a quest from town, we travel a day to the dungeon, we make camp and have 1 encounter at night, we wake up refreshed, we get to the dungeon, we have 1-3 encounters in the dungeon (usually the first is not using anything but cantrips on), we sleep and get refreshed, we travel back to town.

That was a pretty limited imagination you had there...


You don't. You run fewer, deadlier encounters, just like DMG pg. 84 tells you to do. See https://kobold.club for a nice tool that will do the math for you.

I mean the encounter with the dryads was pretty dangerous. The party could have easily been TPK if they got bad rolls. Luckily I had the Dryads set to take them to the copper dragon should they all fall, so it wouldn't have resulted in death.


Yes, but any enemies that would drop to fireball but not shadow blade get to attack you back. Calculating damage over time in isolation neglects the potential damage that those enemies will deal over the coming rounds.

hence 26 AC, False Life and Blink....


So firstly, Shadow Blade isn't giving you 15d6+20 - I'm not quite sure where you got that number from but I'll show my working.

I assume your default fallback without Shadow Blade is a rapier so over 5 rounds Booming Blade and the rapier are giving you 10d8+20. Shadow Blade is giving you an additional 10d8. So 20d8+20 overall assuming no misses (110 damage).
When you get extra attack it sadly doesn't synergise with Booming Blade but your damage will increase up to 6d8+8 a turn or 30d8+40 over 5 turns (175 damage).



Shadow Blade at 3rd level is 3d8, I get +4 per hit because of 18 DEX.

5 rounds of 3d8+4 = 15d8+20 (5x3=15, 4x5=20)

with multi attack that is 2 attacks per round so double the math.

And melf's is actually pretty good I suggest you check out this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613158-Fireball-vs-Scorching-Ray-vs-Melf-s-minute-meteors
You'll find your opinion isn't popular... (doesn't mean it's wrong, just not popular).

[Amnestic]

No, we get a quest from town, we travel a day to the dungeon, we make camp and have 1 encounter at night, we wake up refreshed, we get to the dungeon, we have 1-3 encounters in the dungeon (usually the first is not using anything but cantrips on), we sleep and get refreshed, we travel back to town.

That was a pretty limited imagination you had there...


All your dungeons have 3 encounters at most?

I mean, that would explain it, but when I hear 'dungeon' I usually think of like...The Sunless Citadel (56 rooms) with encounters large and small in most-but-not-all of them and traps to boot.

[Alucard89]

I don't get that Shadow Blade vs Fireball discussion. You use FB when you have big group of weaker enemies that you can nuke or chunk big.

You use Shadow Blade (especially with Elven Accuracy) when you want to smack a one or two stronger guys.

Fireball even upcasted to 10d6 is 35 average damage without counting in possible DEX save for half. That is 5th slot so at least level 11/12 Wizard. It's very bad single target damage.

Meanwhile for 10 rounds you can smack one or two bad guys for 2 x (3d8 +4) damage per turn. Let's say that enemy AC is 19.

That is 35.66 average damage per ONE TURN from Shadow Blade using EA (you should only use SB when you can have advantage). So in 3 turns still using only ONE slot - you will deal to that enemy on average 106,98 damage.

The puropuse of two spells is totally different. I don't understand comparsion here.

[Drache64]

I don't get that Shadow Blade vs Fireball discussion. You use FB when you have big group of weaker enemies that you can nuke or chunk big.

You use Shadow Blade (especially with Elven Accuracy) when you want to smack a one or two stronger guys.

Fireball even upcasted to 10d6 is 35 average damage without counting in possible DEX save for half. That is 5th slot so at least level 11/12 Wizard. It's very bad single target damage.

Meanwhile for 10 rounds you can smack one or two bad guys for 2 x (3d8 +4) damage per turn. Let's say that enemy AC is 19.

That is 35.66 average damage per ONE TURN from Shadow Blade using EA (you should only use SB when you can have advantage). So in 3 turns still using only ONE slot - you will deal to that enemy on average 106,98 damage.

The puropuse of two spells is totally different. I don't understand comparsion here.

Sounds like you and me are on the same page. People keep saying FB is the end-all-be-all and I keep saying that my encounters haven't been built in a way to ever make use of it.

FB will one day be in my spell book, but for the multitude of spread out, interdispersed enemies all around my party, it's better to run around whacking things for 3d8+4 per hit (4d8+4 when I use booming blade, level 5 doesn't have multiattack yet).

[Guy Lombard-O]

You're a wizard, with spell points, with few encounters per day. You could play without a subclass and still be OP. Bladesinger isn't the busted part here

Also, you're 5th level and have 20 Int and 18 Dex. That surely isn't hurting your efficacy.

[Contrast]

Shadow Blade at 3rd level is 3d8, I get +4 per hit because of 18 DEX.

5 rounds of 3d8+4 = 15d8+20 (5x3=15, 4x5=20)

And if you didn't cast Shadow Blade you'd be attacking with a rapier for 1d8 damage. Shadow Blade does 3d8 damage, a potential gain of 2d8 per turn or 10d8 over 5 turns. As I clearly laid out in my post above? :smallconfused:


with multi attack that is 2 attacks per round so double the math.

Except you're losing out of the Booming Blade damage so it doesn't double the damage. Again, as I clearly laid out in my post?


And melf's is actually pretty good I suggest you check out this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613158-Fireball-vs-Scorching-Ray-vs-Melf-s-minute-meteors
You'll find your opinion isn't popular... (doesn't mean it's wrong, just not popular).

I mean that thread looks to be mostly you saying you think its good *shrugs* you've got my advice. I hope you enjoy it and get good use out of it :smallbiggrin:

Edit - wait you say the Meteors do 4d6 damage in that thread. They only do 2d6 damage? Forgot you could send more than one. :smalltongue: Hmm...I don't know if you can overlap the AoEs to double the damage (limitations of spell effects overlapping). Not sure how that works actually.

[MaxWilson]

I mean the encounter with the dryads was pretty dangerous. The party could have easily been TPK if they got bad rolls. Luckily I had the Dryads set to take them to the copper dragon should they all fall, so it wouldn't have resulted in death.

That's fine. I'm not one of the guys who's trying to tell you that 5E requires you to emphasize lots of combats, anyway. Technically even the bits of the DMG that I cited are a maximum anyway, not an required minimum (see https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1012366625985609728?lang=en). Don't let people bully you into thinking that you're doing something wrong by building a good story instead of a long grinding dungeoncrawl.

[Drache64]

And if you didn't cast Shadow Blade you'd be attacking with a rapier for 1d8 damage. Shadow Blade does 3d8 damage, a potential gain of 2d8 per turn or 10d8 over 5 turns. As I clearly laid out in my post above? :smallconfused:

Okay let me replay the conversation:


So firstly, Shadow Blade isn't giving you 15d8+20 - I'm not quite sure where you got that number from

So now I am going to show you how I got 15d8+20



Shadow Blade at 3rd level is 3d8, I get +4 per hit because of 18 DEX.

5 rounds of 3d8+4 = 15d8+20 (5x3=15, 4x5=20)

So now the mystery of

I'm not quite sure where you got that number from
is solved.

[MaxWilson]

Okay let me replay the conversation:

So now I am going to show you how I got 15d8+20

So now the mystery of

is solved.

That's actually a misquote. The original version was:


Usually our combats last 5 rounds so that's 15d6+20 damage I have been getting, will be 30d6+40 next level.


So firstly, Shadow Blade isn't giving you 15d6+20 - I'm not quite sure where you got that number from but I'll show my working.

Bolded emphasis mine. If it had been d8 Contrast probably wouldn't have been puzzled, because Shadow Blade and Booming Blade both yield d8s.

So the real solution to the mystery is just "typo or mistake".

[Drache64]

So the real solution to the mystery is just "typo or mistake".

That's funny, I first saw the mistake when you replied and I thought you just had a slip of d6 to d8 and assumed it was a typo on your end.

Apologies.

[Pex]

Maybe it's not broken, but it can be jarring in concept for a wizard to be purposely engaging in melee with a high AC rivaling the warriors and doing significant damage. It was for a DM I play with who was new to 5E six years ago that caused him to ban everything non-PHB. When Xanathar's came out he allowed for case by case basis for each individual thing a player wanted to use when players had great interest to use stuff from it. It was jarring to me too. It may be unfair, but I could accept the idea the multiclassing dipping Fighter/Wizard to be casting spells while in full plate yet not a single class wizard having the equivalent not needing to wear armor. I'm relatively ok with it now. Regardless of one's opinion on warrior/spellcaster balance issues, the concept of a D&D melee fighting wizard feels wrong.

[Drache64]

Maybe it's not broken, but it can be jarring in concept for a wizard to be purposely engaging in melee with a high AC rivaling the warriors and doing significant damage. It was for a DM I play with who was new to 5E six years ago that caused him to ban everything non-PHB. When Xanathar's came out he allowed for case by case basis for each individual thing a player wanted to use when players had great interest to use stuff from it. It was jarring to me too. It may be unfair, but I could accept the idea the multiclassing dipping Fighter/Wizard to be casting spells while in full plate yet not a single class wizard having the equivalent not needing to wear armor. I'm relatively ok with it now. Regardless of one's opinion on warrior/spellcaster balance issues, the concept of a D&D melee fighting wizard feels wrong.

Yeah it feels weird being a full caster with such high AC and melee damage. I'm thinking "I get to do everything, what am I missing here?"

[Christew]

hence 26 AC, False Life and Blink....

All of which do nothing to mitigate damage to your teammates.

You claimed that Bladesinger is broken because you are surviving fights unscathed while your party ends up battered. I am merely pointing out that your build (which prioritizes single target melee damage and personal damage mitigation) prolongs combat and offers little to the team beyond damage to the target you are in melee with. You are drawing the conclusion that your class is broken when the results seem much more driven by your build/play style.

Furthermore, the only thing that Bladesinger is giving your build (over a vanilla wizard) is higher AC and movement speed. 1) AC/speed don't seem to be particularly important to your stated play style (begging the question of why you think Bladesinger is broken) and 2) AC and False Life fall off pretty hard in higher level play (when other Wizard subclass abilities don't). Seems more like you are asking if Wizard is broken than Bladesinger.

[Drache64]

All of which do nothing to mitigate damage to your teammates.

You claimed that Bladesinger is broken because you are surviving fights unscathed while your party ends up battered. I am merely pointing out that your build (which prioritizes single target melee damage and personal damage mitigation) prolongs combat and offers little to the team beyond damage to the target you are in melee with. You are drawing the conclusion that your class is broken when the results seem much more driven by your build/play style.

Furthermore, the only thing that Bladesinger is giving your build (over a vanilla wizard) is higher AC and movement speed. 1) AC/speed don't seem to be particularly important to your stated play style (begging the question of why you think Bladesinger is broken) and 2) AC and False Life fall off pretty hard in higher level play (when other Wizard subclass abilities don't). Seems more like you are asking if Wizard is broken than Bladesinger.

You forget weapon proficiency, concentration buff, and multiattack.

And when an ancient dragon has 19 AC and you have 22 I don't think that falls off.

When a wizard with 15 AC (assuming mage armor and 14-15 DEX) casts shield to gain 20 AC, and you can walk around with 22, I don't think that's anything to scoff at.

A fighter can action surge 1 time. You can cast haste on yourself and spend potentially the whole combat with an action surge equivalent.

But now I'm not saying blade singer is broken, others have convinced me it's not, I'm merely highlighting that I think you've gone too far in the other direction and under-valued it.

[Christew]

You forget weapon proficiency,
You are using shadow blade, so weapon proficiency is inconsequential.

concentration buff,
You are using blink and high AC to not be hit in the first place, so concentration is inconsequential.

and multiattack.
You are level 5 and do not have the Extra Attack feature.


And when an ancient dragon has 19 AC and you have 22 I don't think that falls off. I don't know what this is supposed to mean. An Ancient Red Dragon attacks with a +17. That means it needs to roll a 5 to hit you.


When a wizard with 15 AC (assuming mage armor and 14-15 DEX) casts shield to gain 20 AC, and you can walk around with 22, I don't think that's anything to scoff at.
Yeah, Bladesong is a cool feature. It is not a broken feature.


A fighter can action surge 1 time. You can cast haste on yourself and spend potentially the whole combat with an action surge equivalent.
Yeah, or you could cast it on a party member. Haste is a cool spell.


But now I'm not saying blade singer is broken, others have convinced me it's not, I'm merely highlighting that I think you've gone too far in the other direction and under-valued it.
Then it is a moot point. I am not undervaluing Bladesinger. I think it is a solid upper tier Wizard subclass. I was merely pointing out that the class is not broken in general, and specifically not as you described in your original post.

[Satori01]

Don't let people bully you into thinking that you're doing something wrong by building a good story instead of a long grinding dungeoncrawl.

Well said!

[Jerrykhor]

The only takeaway i get from this thread is that, Blink is underrated and should be used more often. Unless it is used by me, then it never seems to work.

You have to consider the fact that you are using an action not dealing damage when casting Blink. Not that its a bad thing, but YMMV. If your party is 6 members or more, chances are there is only 3 rounds of combat.

But seriously, Blink is very good for the Bladesinger because it solves their one major problem: Low HP. The best way to survive is to not take damage, and the best way to not take damage is to simply not be there.

Its a trend nowadays that there is less combat and more RP. When there's only 1 or 2 big fights per day, its easy to throw out your big spells and feel powerful.

[MaxWilson]

The only takeaway i get from this thread is that, Blink is underrated and should be used more often. Unless it is used by me, then it never seems to work.

You have to consider the fact that you are using an action not dealing damage when casting Blink. Not that its a bad thing, but YMMV. If your party is 6 members or more, chances are there is only 3 rounds of combat.

But seriously, Blink is very good for the Bladesinger because it solves their one major problem: Low HP. The best way to survive is to not take damage, and the best way to not take damage is to simply not be there.

Its a trend nowadays that there is less combat and more RP. When there's only 1 or 2 big fights per day, its easy to throw out your big spells and feel powerful.

I used to like Blink because it's a non-concentration defense which can theoretically double your longevity, but the problem is that it doesn't deprive the enemy of any actions. They can still target other PCs, or Ready a Multiattack to paste you when you reappear, if they know or can figure out how Blink works.

Blink is like Sanctuary: potentially good if you're the squishiest target within range, but even then only good against certain enemies. Unlike Sanctuary it's expensive both in spell points/slots and in action cost (it's not a bonus action), so IME I learn it and... never wind up casting it, not even the Quickened version. It's just never been a good spell for the situation.

[RSP]

I used to like Blink because it's a non-concentration defense which can theoretically double your longevity, but the problem is that it doesn't deprive the enemy of any actions. They can still target other PCs, or Ready a Multiattack to paste you when you reappear, if they know or can figure out how Blink works.

Blink is like Sanctuary: potentially good if you're the squishiest target within range, but even then only good against certain enemies. Unlike Sanctuary it's expensive both in spell points/slots and in action cost (it's not a bonus action), so IME I learn it and... never wind up casting it, not even the Quickened version. It's just never been a good spell for the situation.

Following this: Blink isn’t a good use of a spell slot (or Action), as it’s unreliable. You may well blink out when no one threatens you, or not blink while surrounded by enemies. Likewise, as Max stated: it may take you out of being targeted but those creatures will still target someone. Or perhaps hold their action to attack when you pop back in.

Sanctuary, a fantastic spell (imho), by comparison: is always “on” during its duration, is a 1st level spell, is a BA, uses up/denies the enemy’s Actions, and can be cast on others to maximize tactical advantage. Yes, it’ll end sooner than Blink in the vast majority of cases, but it’s so much more effective and reliable, and much less costly.

[MaxWilson]

Following this: Blink isn’t a good use of a spell slot (or Action), as it’s unreliable. You may well blink out when no one threatens you, or not blink while surrounded by enemies. Likewise, as Max stated: it may take you out of being targeted but those creatures will still target someone. Or perhaps hold their action to attack when you pop back in.

Sanctuary, a fantastic spell (imho), by comparison: is always “on” during its duration, is a 1st level spell, is a BA, uses up/denies the enemy’s Actions, and can be cast on others to maximize tactical advantage. Yes, it’ll end sooner than Blink in the vast majority of cases, but it’s so much more effective and reliable, and much less costly.

My only quibble here is that Sanctuary only uses up actions when there are no other targets in range, otherwise it just forces them to retarget. But yeah, against melee monsters it has a high chance of using up attacks if you are the only one in melee.

It's also cheap enough that e.g. a Paladin of Devotion in a tough fight can afford to take the Attack action and then recast Sanctuary afterwards, every round if necessary. Sort of a poor man's Shield spell, for classes without Shield, but it works against spells too.

[RSP]

My only quibble here is that Sanctuary only uses up actions when there are no other targets in range, otherwise it just forces them to retarget. But yeah, against melee monsters it has a high chance of using up attacks if you are the only one in melee.

It's also cheap enough that e.g. a Paladin of Devotion in a tough fight can afford to take the Attack action and then recast Sanctuary afterwards, every round if necessary. Sort of a poor man's Shield spell, for classes without Shield, but it works against spells too.

True that. I was specifically thinking of it’s uses in melee, when it’s a fine use of a 1st level slot; assuming similar circumstances to when Shield would be worthwhile. (That is, the enemy’s attacks are dangerous enough that it’s worth a 1st level slot to prevent a hit.)

[MaxWilson]

True that. I was specifically thinking of it’s uses in melee, when it’s a fine use of a 1st level slot; assuming similar circumstances to when Shield would be worthwhile. (That is, the enemy’s attacks are dangerous enough that it’s worth a 1st level slot to prevent a hit.)

The main thing I was trying to call out is that if you and your buddy (or Steed) are both in melee with the same Nightwalker, Shield is useful, but Sanctuary isn't unless your buddy doesn't mind being the target (e.g. has crazy-high AC of his own).

[Bobthewizard]

I would say to the OP, if your goal is to get through combat with your character unscathed while the rest of your party flounders, then your strategy is perfect.

If you want to maximize the chance of your party surviving, though, you'd be better off with an evoker (sculpted fireballs), or a diviner (web, hypnotic pattern or fear for masses then an auto fail debuff for the the BBEG), or a sorcerer so you can cast a careful hypnotic pattern or fear. Or even a blade singer that uses their song for defense but still controls the battlefield.

The wizard's combat strength is in dividing the enemy so they get less attacks against your party. If your party is beaten up at the end of the fight, you have not made an OP wizard, you've made yourself into a good fighter. Every martial class in the game is geared to single target damage, so even if you do it really well, you are making yourself redundant to the party, while a good wizard can end fights before they even begin.

If everyone is having fun, though, who cares if you are OP or not.

[Quietus]

Something my wife just pointed out, that I'm shocked I hadn't realised - not only is this only OP due to being able to top down your spell list, but it's also illegal. If you cast a levelled spell (shadow blade) as a bonus action, you cannot cast anything but a cantrip as your primary action.

[MaxWilson]

Something my wife just pointed out, that I'm shocked I hadn't realised - not only is this only OP due to being able to top down your spell list, but it's also illegal. If you cast a levelled spell (shadow blade) as a bonus action, you cannot cast anything but a cantrip as your primary action.

OP isn't doing that. Blink and Shadow Blade are being cast on different rounds. From OP (emphasis mine):


Typical Combat:
Round 1: Blink, Blade Song
Round 2: Shadow Blade, run up to hit, Booming Blade, Blink away.
Enemy's Turn: I'm not there so it moves and takes 2d8 damage. (total of 6d8+4 in one turn).


Blade Song is not a spell, and Booming Blade is a cantrip, so this is legal.

[Jerrykhor]

Something my wife just pointed out, that I'm shocked I hadn't realised - not only is this only OP due to being able to top down your spell list, but it's also illegal. If you cast a levelled spell (shadow blade) as a bonus action, you cannot cast anything but a cantrip as your primary action.

Nice try, but this would have been found out instantly had it really been illegal. This kind of basic thing won't get past GITP's analytical eye lol.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Bladesinger? No.

Wizard? Yes.

Play it however you want though, people are ok with wizards having everything.

[da newt]

Your combat strategy is very effective for your PC and very selfish. You are doing a great job of reducing the chances that you are damaged, but you are sitting out the first round of combat, and then doing decent damage to a single target each round after that while minimizing how often your PC is targeted. As a result the enemy lives for many rounds, and attacks your team many times.

A more team optimal combat strategy is to deal as much damage as soon as possible or debilitate enemies so that they have fewer opportunities to attack. A perfect combat encounter is over quickly with your team taking minimal damage. Your PC's strategy prolongs combat by sitting out the first round and then targeting only one enemy per round after that.

A long drawn out combat that results in your team taking a bunch of damage is a poor result for the group even if your PC comes out unscathed - especially if many resources are burned.

For this reason, spells and other affects that target many enemies tend to be more beneficial than 1 v 1 tactics when there are multiple enemies.

How do the other party members feel about your PC's self focused combat strategy?

[Drache64]

Your combat strategy is very effective for your PC and very selfish.

How do the other party members feel about your PC's self focused combat strategy?

Actually they all prefer it. They are newer players and like being the ones who do things. Something like casting fireball or hypnotic pattern that could end a fight as it began would be considered annoying and self centered in this group. It would be seen as my character doing everything so no one else gets to play.

In retrospect I think my current strategy is actually a perfect limiter for me. I have a history of building optimized characters who outshine everyone else.

We also have another wizard but he hasn't been coming due to current event type stuff. But when I switched my class from Mystic to Wizard because Mystic seemed too OP, I wanted to play this wizard in such a way that the other wizard could be a wizardy-wizard and my character would play so unique to a wizard that the newer players might not even know what class I'm playing.

Since making those choices though it seems the other wizard may never come back, so recent sessions have allowed me to look a bit more like a wizard.

[Keravath]

Heh, yeah. I even myself many times tried that formula but it just doesn't work for me (nor any DM I ever played with). Taloring story and narrative with "must place 6-8 encounters during adventure day" never really led to anything. When asked different groups of players if they prefer 6-8 encounters or 2-4 interesting ones with some story put into them, most always say they prefer those. Also from my experience past 4 encounters players are getting tired (unless it's a dungeon or some sort of "battle" or "castle storm" etc.) and prefer to go back to some roleplaying.

I never understood why they had to balance game around 6-8.... 3-5 interesting encounters are more worth than 6 "deadly' stat block encounters or 8 for the sake of resource drain.

Anyway, I digress.

Bladesinger is fine. It's very balanced and can be power house when min-maxed but overall it's not really broken.

infamous Nuclear Wizard build 1 Hexblade/Evoker Wizard - now that's 100% broken.

I'd just like to add that the game is not balanced around an adventuring day which must have 5-8 encounters. It is balanced around an adventuring day that COULD have 5-8 encounters.

The goal of a longer adventuring day is to constrain the use of long rest resources. Characters don't like dying. Players realize that they need to keep at least some resources on hand IF they think that there may be more encounters that they might have to deal with.

So it is the POSSIBILITY that the day could be long with a number of encounters that limits the use of long rest resources. I was playing DotMM as a wizard and used a fireball against 4 relatively easier opponents earlier in the session (I didn't realize that they would be that easy). We then ran into a second bunch - fireball, then a third ... I started conserving resources since we had had several encounters with large numbers of creatures and I didn't know how many there would be. Another encounter with a group. Another encounter against a single undead. A MASSIVE encounter with at least 20-30 opponents including some tough ones. I was very happy at this point that I started conserving spell slots after the second encounter and had two higher level slots left. Without those, we would have likely TPKed on the last encounter (which was the major base for that level). Luckily, it was also the last encounter since we had cleared the level.

The point is that, although our typical sessions might be shorter or have fewer encounters, some days can have a lot of encounters and a long rest class won't necessarily get to choose when to long rest. Just the possibility of more encounters can be enough to rein in the over use of long rest resources.

[Whit]

Hold on people. First let’s remember he’s playing a bladesinger. If he’s going into melee then it’s wise to prepare. So it’s not selfish to take a round to prepare or to be targeted less.

Answer this question. Why take spell singer subclass if all you do is sit back and cast spells like a wizard X subclass. Yes you are a wizard and yes other spells might be better to cast depending on the situation but he is a bladinger who augments his melee with spells like an Eldritch Knight but with more spell options

Personally I love the thought of bladesinger but if you don’t go into melee at some point what’s the point of picking bladesinger over a better Div or evoc Wizard who is always in the back.

Level 5. Spells 1x4, 2x3, 2x2 DEX 16 Int 18 or Dex 18 Int 16. Or a feat. But let’s go with stats at lvl 4
Before first encounter Round 0. Cast Armor. AC 13(16-17)or have studded leather 12(15-16).
Round 1. Bonus action bladesong + AC bonus Int mod +3-4 AC is (19-20) or (18-19) +10 movement ,+3-4 concentration roll. (2x per short rest) move if needed.
Round 1 action. We will go with blink lvl 3. Spell cast. To conserve lvl 2 for shadowblade.
Round two bonus action concentration Shadowblade lvl 2 spell. Run into combat attack add cantrip booming blade +6-7 to hit 2d8(7) +3-4 dex psychic damage total 10-11 damage plus BB 1d8(3-4) 13-14 damage with a chance of extra 2d8(7) if they move. Total (13-14)guaranteed damage with a possible +7 more per turn. For 20-21 savage
As a DM. Take this into consideration. The first time BB is used the X creature or etc don’t know what BB does but will learn if basic INT after the first effect hits when moving.
However. As a DM does it make sense to move the X creature. Is the wizard or others are now upfront for melee combat? Etc.

Let us also remember during combat either someone with a torch like source out of the 20’ range like another spell caster etc with light spell will grant you advantage on attacks for dim light condition, but if that light source is within 20’ you do not get it.

During the entire fight you get hit once. You take it or cast shield +5 AC (24-25) or 23-24). No damage. Battle over.

At this point you are down 1-2 lvl 1(4) armor shield Spells Or just shield if not casting armor. 1 lvl 2 (3) shadowblade, 1 lvl 3(2) spells Blink.

The party continues.

2nd Next encounter. Same example
Now the Wizard is down 2-3 lvl 1(4) armor and or 2 shield spells, lvl 2(3) Shadowblade x2, and (2) lvl 3 blinks.
Now they short rest. Wizard gets to recover 3 lvls total of spell lvl. So either 1 lvl 3 or or 1 lvl 2 and 1 lvl 1 or 3 lvl 1 spells. Let us say he got back 1 lvl 3 spell.

3rd encounter. He can once again cast shield 3-4 lvl 1 (4) all out or 1 left. 3x shadow blade lvl 2(3) All out. Blink lvl 3 (2) all out.

Now hopefully that will be all of the encounters for the module and they return safely home to rest for a day. OR they full rest somewhere safe with a chance of random encounter and continue in the dungeon or etc. and it starts all over again.
So this is doable now let us say during the next 3 encounters 4-6 he casts fireball or hypnotic pattern(c) so no shadowblade. Or counter spell. He can still do all of the above for encounter 1,2 short rest but encounter 3 he used one of the other lvl 3 spells instead of blink. So he now has no blink, no mirror image and possibly 1-2 shield spells only fir the 3rd combat with shadow blade.

I’m not saying it’s what’s best for the party. Nor it’s efficient fir spell use based on the encounter. But the bottom line is WHY play a bladesinger if he won’t go into combat when he can pick subclass X that will be a better spell caster. Remember, he picked bladesinger.
SO if YOU picked bladesinger how would you Play it without just becoming a basic X wizard subclass
Finally. No, it is not an overpowered subclass. Far from it. You become a fighter with decent damage and great AC at the cost of using up your spells. Yet your HP Lacks and if you DO get hit with any damage and fail that concentration save, you just lost reduced your shadow blade attack significantly for other encounters.
And at lvl 6 > your BB GFB become useless. Because your shadowblade becomes better with the 2 attacks over 1 attack and BB/GFB until maybe lvl 11 where it can surpass a lvl 2 shadow blade 2nd attack.
However, at this point you might consider up casting your shadow blade which then becomes better with 2 attacks once again over 1 attack and BB.

[Christew]

Hold on people. First let’s remember he’s playing a bladesinger. If he’s going into melee then it’s wise to prepare. So it’s not selfish to take a round to prepare or to be targeted less.

Answer this question. Why take spell singer subclass if all you do is sit back and cast spells like a wizard X subclass. Yes you are a wizard and yes other spells might be better to cast depending on the situation but he is a bladinger who augments his melee with spells like an Eldritch Knight but with more spell options

Personally I love the thought of bladesinger but if you don’t go into melee at some point what’s the point of picking bladesinger over a better Div or evoc Wizard who is always in the back.

Level 5. Spells 1x4, 2x3, 2x2 DEX 16 Int 18 or Dex 18 Int 16. Or a feat. But let’s go with stats at lvl 4
Before first encounter Round 0. Cast Armor. AC 13(16-17)or have studded leather 12(15-16).
Round 1. Bonus action bladesong + AC bonus Int mod +3-4 AC is (19-20) or (18-19) +10 movement ,+3-4 concentration roll. (2x per short rest) move if needed.
Round 1 action. We will go with blink lvl 3. Spell cast. To conserve lvl 2 for shadowblade.
Round two bonus action concentration Shadowblade lvl 2 spell. Run into combat attack add cantrip booming blade +6-7 to hit 2d8(9) +3-4 dex psychic damage total 12-13 damage plus BB 1d8(3-4) with a chance of extra 2d8(7) if they move. Total (15-16) guaranteed damage with a possible +7 more per turn.
As a DM. Take this into consideration. The first time BB is used the X creature or etc don’t know what BB does but will learn if basic INT after the first effect.
However. As a DM does it make sense to move the X creature. Is the wizard or others are now upfront for melee combat? Etc.

Let us also remember during combat either someone with a torch like source out of the 20’ range like another spell caster etc with light spell will grant you advantage on attacks for dim light condition, but if that light source is within 20’ you do not get it.

During the entire fight you get hit once. You take it or cast shield +5 AC (24-25) or 23-24). No damage. Battle over.

At this point you are down 1-2 lvl 1(4) armor shield Spells Or just shield if not casting armor. 1 lvl 2 (3) shadowblade, 1 lvl 3(2) spells Blink.

The party continues.

2nd Next encounter. Same example
Now the Wizard is down 2-3 lvl 1(4) armor and or 2 shield spells, lvl 2(3) Shadowblade x2, and (2) lvl 3 blinks.
Now they short rest. Wizard gets to recover 3 lvls total of spell lvl. So either 1 lvl 3 or or 1 lvl 2 and 1 lvl 1 or 3 lvl 1 spells. Let us say he got back 1 lvl 3 spell.

3rd encounter. He can once again cast shield 3-4 lvl 1 (4) all out or 1 left. 3x shadow blade lvl 2(3) All out. Blink lvl 3 (2) all out.

Now hopefully that will be all of the encounters for the module and they return safely home to rest for a day. OR they full rest somewhere safe with a chance of random encounter and continue in the dungeon or etc. and it starts all over again.
So this is doable now let us say during the next 3 encounters 4-6 he casts fireball or hypnotic pattern(c) so no shadowblade. Or counter spell. He can still do all of the above for encounter 1,2 short rest but encounter 3 he used one of the other lvl 3 spells instead of blink. So he now has no blink, no mirror image and possibly 1-2 shield spells only fir the 3rd combat with shadow blade.

I’m not saying it’s what’s best for the party. Nor it’s efficient fir spell use based on the encounter. But the bottom line is WHY play a bladesinger if he won’t go into combat when he can pick subclass X that will be a better spell caster. Remember, he picked bladesinger.
SO if YOU picked bladesinger how would you Play it without just becoming a basic X wizard subclass
Finally. No, it is not an overpowered subclass. Far from it. You become a fighter with decent damage and great AC at the cost of using up your spells. Yet your HP Lacks and if you DO get hit with any damage and fail that concentration save, you just lost reduced your shadow blade attack significantly for other encounters.
And at lvl 6 > your BB GFB become useless. Because your shadowblade becomes better with the 2 attacks over 1 attack and BB/GFB until maybe lvl 11 where it can surpass a lvl 2 shadow blade 2nd attack.
However, at this point you might consider up saying your shadow blade which then becomes better with 2 attacks once again over 1 attack and BB.
No one is saying that he has to play a more traditional Wizard strategy. He claimed that his subclass is broken and people pointed out that it is not. In the course of pointing that out, some have highlighted that any Wizard (Bladesinger or not) could accomplish more efficient play. If 1) more efficient play could be accomplished, and 2) more efficient play could be accomplished by a non-Bladesinger, then Bladesinger is not broken.

He can play however he wants. Personally, I find Shadow Blade/Booming Blade to be a lot of fun. It is clearly not broken though.

[Drache64]

No one is saying that he has to play a more traditional Wizard strategy. He claimed that his subclass is broken and people pointed out that it is not. In the course of pointing that out, some have highlighted that any Wizard (Bladesinger or not) could accomplish more efficient play. If 1) more efficient play could be accomplished, and 2) more efficient play could be accomplished by a non-Bladesinger, then Bladesinger is not broken.

He can play however he wants. Personally, I find Shadow Blade/Booming Blade to be a lot of fun. It is clearly not broken though.

And just to clarify, I *asked* if it was broken.

[da newt]

If I was playing the bladesinger, I'd be tempted to skip casting BLINK the first round and instead BA bladesong and attack (spell or weapon depending on the particulars), 2nd round I'd BA shadow blade (at max spell slot) and BB or multi attack depending on level / encounter. With the very high for the tier 21 AC and SHIELD in my pocket if needed, I'd like to be targeted for an attack or two to try to reduce the number of attacks on the other party members and ensure I attack in the first round of combat instead of hiding and not contributing.

But this is just my opinion/preference - you do you and enjoy it. There is no 1 "right" way to D&D.

Also OP said he had a 20 INT and 18 DEX at level 5 if I remember correctly.

[Christew]

And just to clarify, I *asked* if it was broken.
Touche. Enjoy your build!

[Drache64]

Also OP said he had a 20 INT and 18 DEX at level 5 if I remember correctly.

Yeah, DM had the entire party roll 4d6 and keep all unless it was above 18.

So the entire party has some crazy high stats.

[Whit]

Although the majority of posts say it’s not OP. And yes For me it’s not.
However I counted 8 different posts without finishing the full 3rd page where people state it’s selfish to blink or a waste, it’s poor spell management for a wizard, yiu should use hypnotic pattern fireball etc to end combat instead of fighting etc. yiur hurting your party by not casting other spells. Etc

So I am agreeing it’s not OP
I am disagreeing with those that think his play style is selfish and hurts the team.
And I’m supporting his play style.

[Bobthewizard]

Although the majority of posts say it’s not OP. And yes For me it’s not.
However I counted 8 different posts without finishing the full 3rd page where people state it’s selfish to blink or a waste, it’s poor spell management for a wizard, yiu should use hypnotic pattern fireball etc to end combat instead of fighting etc. yiur hurting your party by not casting other spells. Etc

So I am agreeing it’s not OP
I am disagreeing with those that think his play style is selfish and hurts the team.
And I’m supporting his play style.

Yes. And they addressed that in post #63 above. I think the other styles of wizard are more powerful and generally better accepted by other players. Almost always, it's better to play your wizard to compliment the martial characters instead of competing with them. But if the other players at this table are all having fun with this character, then by all means, carry on.

[Drache64]

Although the majority of posts say it’s not OP. And yes For me it’s not.
However I counted 8 different posts without finishing the full 3rd page where people state it’s selfish to blink or a waste, it’s poor spell management for a wizard, yiu should use hypnotic pattern fireball etc to end combat instead of fighting etc. yiur hurting your party by not casting other spells. Etc

So I am agreeing it’s not OP
I am disagreeing with those that think his play style is selfish and hurts the team.

I'd also like to add that teams don't always appreciate you doing the most helpful thing. On paper casting 1 spell to end an encounter is something that would be appreciated by a group of fantasy adventurers, but in the context of a cooperative game it steals fun from other players and makes them question their to place in the party.

I have a history of posts on here from years past where I created the best characters and did the best things and it got me in trouble with my party. While this is a new play group, I'm always being over cautious to make sure I'm not out-performing everyone at the table which is what prompted this post.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?559147-My-character-is-outshining-the-others-and-I-can-t-help-it
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?544786-I-think-I-m-a-problem-player-help-(Power-gamer)
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?597945-Why-does-the-party-need-to-be-balanced
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?594533-Running-into-DMs-try-to-kill-psionic-characters
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601315-Munchkins-Anonymous-support-group

[Whit]

Almost always, it's better to play your wizard to compliment the martial characters instead of competing with them. But if the other players at this table are all having fun with this character, then by all means, carry on.

LetÂ’s break this down.
Almost always, itÂ’s better to play yiur wizard to compliment the martial characters instead of competing with them but if the other players are having fun with his character itÂ’s ok?
So what that is saying is:
any non martial class should mainly be a support role and not compete unless the rest of the players are ok with it. So other players now dictate how a person should play a character?
the player can choose how he wants to play his character. NOT the other players agreeing or not on how he should play his character.

What IÂ’m saying is
I donÂ’t see any argument to my statements. It agree with the OP play style , it agrees with most posts that itÂ’s not op and I give examples of Damage and what he can do at lvl 5 and I agree there is better team spell efficiency but I disagree that the player has to play that way.

What if a character made a nova that can 1 shot and kill something before the fighter can attack. Is that wrong? Are we now saying classes have specific rolls to fill like WOW?

Is the fighter player upset that he doesnÂ’t do the most damage? Maybe the fighter should be a team player and focus on being a tank with sword and shield and protection fight style to help the party not get hit, And only does average damage. Instead of trying to be the one that does the most damage. That would be team playing.
ItÂ’s his play style with his character and the other players should be fine with it period!

Once again i agree itÂ’s not op with the majority. And the OP question. I agree with his style of play and wether itÂ’s spell efficient or team efficient is MUTE br abuse itÂ’s his character with his play style. We can nit pick every class

[Bobthewizard]

Almost always, it's better to play your wizard to compliment the martial characters instead of competing with them. But if the other players at this table are all having fun with this character, then by all means, carry on.

LetÂ’s break this down.
Almost always, itÂ’s better to play yiur wizard to compliment the martial characters instead of competing with them but if the other players are having fun with his character itÂ’s ok?
So what that is saying is:
any non martial class should mainly be a support role and not compete unless the rest of the players are ok with it. So other players now dictate how a person should play a character?
the player can choose how he wants to play his character. NOT the other players agreeing or not on how he should play his character.

What IÂ’m saying is
I donÂ’t see any argument to my statements. It agree with the OP play style , it agrees with most posts that itÂ’s not op and I give examples of Damage and what he can do at lvl 5 and I agree there is better team spell efficiency but I disagree that the player has to play that way.

What if a character made a nova that can 1 shot and kill something before the fighter can attack. Is that wrong? Are we now saying classes have specific rolls to fill like WOW?

Is the fighter player upset that he doesnÂ’t do the most damage? Maybe the fighter should be a team player and focus on being a tank with sword and shield and protection fight style to help the party not get hit, And only does average damage. Instead of trying to be the one that does the most damage. That would be team playing.
ItÂ’s his play style with his character and the other players should be fine with it period!

Once again i agree itÂ’s not op with the majority. And the OP question. I agree with his style of play and wether itÂ’s spell efficient or team efficient is MUTE br abuse itÂ’s his character with his play style. We can nit pick every class

I think you're making an argument where there isn't one. I agree with you. I meant better from an optimization standpoint not better for fun for the table. If his table is having fun, then he's fine.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'd also like to add that teams don't always appreciate you doing the most helpful thing.

If they didn't want to be out performed they shouldn't choose options that are so limited.

If they're new, it's ok as they're learning, though people really underestimate players and their ability to pick up D&D.

You go into a game and pick Fighterand then get annoyed that the Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Paladin, Rogue, or whoever else is more often more useful than you? That's on yourself. Getting mad and trying to blame another player for bringing a character that they find fun is not the way to go. It's the toxic part of D&D that I hate.

"You aren't playing your character the way you should", "your character doesn't conform to my character", or "your character doesn't meet my expectations of a D&D world" is toxic bullcrap mentalities that no game needs.