Thief and Fast Hands

[DwarfFighter]

It seems to me that the Use Object action that the Rogue Thief can use as a bonus action with the Fast Hands feature can find eminent application with magical items that are used "as an action", e.g. a Staff of Frost (let's assume the requirements are met). Any pitfalls to be aware of?

[MrStabby]

Any pitfalls?

Mostly that magic item usage is usually its own action type not a thing that you can use a bonus action for.

[Lavaeolus]

Note that, RAW, activating a magic item is explicitly not governed by Use an Object. When introducing magic items and how activating them works, the DMG goes:

If [a magic item] requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.

Approaching it from a less strict rules-interpretation perspective, that does at least mean clearing it with your DM first to ensure they're happy with it, assuming you're not said DM.

[Greywander]

Sadly, magic items use a different type of action to activate them (forget what it's called specifically).

On the other hand, items like acid or alchemist's fire do use the Use an Object action, and thus can be used as a bonus action by a thief. Even though you're making an attack roll, you're not using the Attack action (though I probably would allow someone to replace one of their Attack action attacks with using one of these). Also, don't forget items like caltrops, ball bearings, oil, or a host of other items.

[Lavaeolus]

Sadly, magic items use a different type of action to activate them (forget what it's called specifically).

I don't think it strictly has a name. The PHB / DMG rules split can be a pain sometimes; magic items are only in the latter, and so aren't directly covered in the rules the PHB covers. The DMG, meanwhile, simply says that if a magic item uses an action, it isn't Use an Object. In principle, though, you may as well assume there's an "Activating an Item" action.

Which isn't awful or anything; you always could explicitly take actions other than those named and listed in the PHB. But it does mean that when the PHB describes Use an Object, it's just kind of wrong, or at least misleading, once magic items are introduced. Suppose you only had the PHB, and your DMG gave you a magic item: well, the rules you have and can read would make it fall under Use an Object. A rule you wouldn't see overrides them.


On the other hand, items like acid or alchemist's fire do use the Use an Object action, and thus can be used as a bonus action by a thief. Even though you're making an attack roll, you're not using the Attack action (though I probably would allow someone to replace one of their Attack action attacks with using one of these). Also, don't forget items like caltrops, ball bearings, oil, or a host of other items.

Absolutely, that's my interpretation. So without magic items I don't think the Thief is bad, mind, and I think it can be a lot of fun with a permissive DM. Use an Object can also be any normal object interaction, so get a very willing DM and you might be able to pull a variety of stuff. Even with a non-permissive DM, assuming they don't rule otherwise with throwing alchemist's fire and the like, it can be a lot of fun if you have ready access to buying items.

That's probably a pitfall there though, OP, regardless: if you can't get or restock your items, er, that could kill your plans a bit. Incidentally, the Healer feat can be a great synergy here, if you feel like taking a more supportive role.

I've been meaning to try a Thief / Alchemist who throws alchemist's fire and acid at people one day, maybe using the Artificer's alchemy jug. Probably not the smartest thing you could do, but hey, sounds fun.

[J-H]

The Healer feat and a healer's kit is a commonly-brought-up option for this.

[Chronos]

Note that the same things a thief can do with a bonus action, an arcane trickster can do with a bonus action backwards and in heelsfrom 30 feet away. You do need to have already spent an action to cast Mage Hand, but that's a cantrip; you can do it every five rounds if you want.

[JellyPooga]

Note that the same things a thief can do with a bonus action, an arcane trickster can do with a bonus action backwards and in heelsfrom 30 feet away. You do need to have already spent an action to cast Mage Hand, but that's a cantrip; you can do it every five rounds if you want.

Note that the bolded text is frequently a significant restriction :smallwink:

Fast Hands is, IMO, one of the best low-level features in the game and can still have a significant impact even in higher level play, not only for its aspects of entertainment and creativity, but mechanically too. The ability to use equipment is just the tip of the iceberg; Fast Hands turns the very terrain into your own personal arsenal, giving you the ability to create difficult terrain (topple a bookcase), cover (tip a table), concealment (throw water on a fire to create fog) and damaging terrain (scatter coals from a fire), to close and open lines of approach (move barricades) as well as being able to manipulate lighting (torches, lantersns, etc.) and giving you increased mobility (swing from that chandelier!), among other features. All as a Bonus Actions. It's really only limited by your creativity and the terrain the GM gives you to play with.

[stoutstien]

Note that the bolded text is frequently a significant restriction :smallwink:

Fast Hands is, IMO, one of the best low-level features in the game and can still have a significant impact even in higher level play, not only for its aspects of entertainment and creativity, but mechanically too. The ability to use equipment is just the tip of the iceberg; Fast Hands turns the very terrain into your own personal arsenal, giving you the ability to create difficult terrain (topple a bookcase), cover (tip a table), concealment (throw water on a fire to create fog) and damaging terrain (scatter coals from a fire), to close and open lines of approach (move barricades) as well as being able to manipulate lighting (torches, lantersns, etc.) and giving you increased mobility (swing from that chandelier!), among other features. All as a Bonus Actions. It's really only limited by your creativity and the terrain the GM gives you to play with.

agreed. IMO it is single most fun ability in the game and I am always tempted to dip 3 lvs into thief solely for the boost in options that don't revolve around mindlessly attacking.

[Zalabim]

Note that the same things a thief can do with a bonus action, an arcane trickster can do with a bonus action backwards and in heelsfrom 30 feet away. You do need to have already spent an action to cast Mage Hand, but that's a cantrip; you can do it every five rounds if you want.
Except throw holy water, alchemist fire, acid flask, or target an enemy with lantern oil. It can spill oil on the ground. Also, many times the thief can retrieve the item and then use it on the same turn, while the mage hand has to take a bonus action to retrieve the item and another to fly off and deploy it.

[Tanarii]

Note that the same things a thief can do with a bonus action, an arcane trickster can do with a bonus action backwards and in heelsfrom 30 feet away. You do need to have already spent an action to cast Mage Hand, but that's a cantrip; you can do it every five rounds if you want.
Mage Hand often requires 2-3 steps to use. It's explicitly an action (bonus for AT) for each of:
- open container
- retrieve item from an open container
- manipulate object

It's also questionable if it can take the Use an Object action, as opposed to just these three specific subsets of the action. That manny rule out use of caltrops, ball bearings, acid or alchemists fire.

[Lavaeolus]

Mage Hand often requires 2-3 steps to use. It's explicitly an action (bonus for AT) for each of:
- open container
- retrieve item from an open container
- manipulate object

It's also questionable if it can take the Use an Object action, as opposed to just these three specific subsets of the action. That manny rule out use of caltrops, ball bearings, acid or alchemists fire.

I haven't had to rule on this, and I'm not sure which way I would rule, but it is explicit that the hand "can't attack". So, just sidestepping if Use an Object actions work and assuming they do, I'm unsure how this interacts with acid vials or alchemist's fire, as examples.

How do those items work, literally? Essentially, that equipment takes a Use an Object action to throw/splash it, and then forces you to make a ranged attack* as a result.

So maybe the Mage Hand is specifically precluded from this, regardless of if it can Use an Object? It seems narratively weird, given pouring a vial is explicitly one of the things Mage Hand can do, but let's stick to a RAW perspective for a mo'. Maybe the Mage Hand could pour the acid, but just be unable to roll the attack? Of course that, again, would just be weird from a narrative perspective.

*I didn't mention this before, but note that since this attack is treated as if it were an improvised weapon, Tavern Brawler is another feat you could consider if you wanted a build that capitalised on Fast Hands.

[Tanarii]

I haven't had to rule on this, and I'm not sure which way I would rule, but it is explicit that the hand "can't attack". So, just sidestepping if Use an Object actions work and assuming they do, I'm unsure how this interacts with acid vials or alchemist's fire, as examples.

How do those items work, literally? Essentially, that equipment takes a Use an Object action to throw/splash it, and then forces you to make a ranged attack* as a result.

That's exactly how they work. They are attacks that require an action to work. Per the Use an Object Action, that is the action being used with them, as they are items.

And yeah, the fact that it can't be an attack already rules out Acid and Alchemists Fire. Edit: at least as far as hurling them. DM would have to rule on the effect of pouring them as a non-attack.