More Purple Gods?

[5crownik007]

Mortals can ascend to Godhood with the backing of a Pantheon, and they will join that Pantheon's quiddity.
Mortals can also ascend on their own. The only known example is TDO. More on that down below.
The existing Pantheons have Gods with Good, Neutral, Evil, Lawful and Chaotic gods. (all sorts)


Circumstances of TDO's ascension:

He had a large number of followers.
They were all greatly devoted to him, and practically worshipped him as a god BEFORE he died.
He had to die to ascend to godhood. (Or in his case, be killed)
His ascension created a new quiddity, separate from all the other pantheons.


So, with the above information, we could hazard a guess that we might see more Purple Gods in the future. Since it's so rare for someone to ascend on their own, we don't know if someone can ascend into an existing pantheon, or if all "self-ascensions" create new pantheons. TDO is the only one to have done it, so our sample size is presently only one. Putting that aside, this probably means that the only new Purple Gods are going to be mortals which TDO has put his "backing" behind, thus some possible candidates:


Jirix. Already famous among the Goblin population, revered as the glorious leader. TDO knows of, and has plans for Jirix. Perhaps if Jirix finds the time to level up, he'll be god material. Perhaps the God of Paperwork, or something.
Redcloak. Similar to above, but RC is higher level, and thus possibly more "god material". He's already lived an extended lifespan, and his original name is lost to time, pretty much. He's proba


We should also consider if TDO is willing to let non-Evil goblins ascend, we might see the Purple Pantheon grow with Evil gods joining first, as many goblins in present time are Evil, and TDO is favourable to Evil, then as time progresses and goblin society balances out with more balanced alignments, we could see some Neutral gods and then Good gods. Just some speculation.

Aside from the above, we can be fairly sure that any new Purple Gods with TDO's backing will be Goblinoids, because I highly doubt TDO will put his backing into a Humanoid, and even if he did, what about all the Goblinoids who would have to borderline worship them too?

...but, give it a few thousand years maybe? A few new Purple Gods with slightly different alignments to TDO, some Goblinoid prosperity, falling of specieist tensions, and then perhaps some strange Human or Dwarf or Elf joins the Purple Pantheon? Wouldn't that be something to see, eh?

TL;DR speculation about new purple gods following TDO... probably long after this whole Gates crisis is resolved

[137beth]

Given that TDO himself is weak enough that he might not survive until the next world, my suspicion is that he won't have enough energy to "sponsor" new gods for a long time.


Also, in recent Patreon commentary (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-2020-34406298), the Giant said that ascencion from a pantheon supporting a new god was something he introduced to explain an early gag in the comic (V's religion in DCF).


A lot of the things that are crucial parts of the story were just random gags early on that I then had to work into a cohesive narrative without invalidating the earlier comics. One example: the reason there’s an elven pantheon is because V mentions it during the original Banjo scene. This was before I developed the entire Snarl plotline and the specific roles each pantheon was going to play in the backstory of the world. I had to retrofit the existence of the elven gods into the framework I invented later, and do so in a way that kept them separate from the unique role I needed the goblin god to play. That’s why the elven gods are described as being “sponsored” by the Western Pantheon and thus sharing their red quiddity—because if I had been planning this all from the beginning, they wouldn’t exist at all!

[RatElemental]

I gotta say, "Redcloak ascends to godhood and provides the purple quiddity his own damn self" is not an angle I had considered before. The main issues I can see, however:

1. Narratively, this isn't that different from Redcloak just granting some of his dark one powered spell slots to a ritual unless the dark one is hiding things from Redcloak regarding the plan (IE, he wants to blow the world up no matter what).
2. If Redcloak and the dark one are out of sync in their goals, why would the dark one sponsor Redcloak to become a deity?

I just can't think of any plausible circumstances under which the dark one would allow Redcloak to provide purple quiddity in which he himself would not.

[Dion]

So Redcloak ascends to godhood, and get purple quiddity.

Then we wait 20 years for a new goblin Cleric of Redcloak to reach 17th level.

Then the new goblin cleric casts the 9th level spell?

[Fyraltari]

So Redcloak ascends to godhood, and get purple quiddity.

Then we wait 20 years for a new goblin Cleric of Redcloak to reach 17th level.

Then the new goblin cleric casts the 9th level spell?

Unnecessary, the ‘get the priest to grant us a 9th level spell’ plan only exists to circumvent the problem that the Dark One refuses to help. If a god with a purple essence were on-board with sealing the Rifts, Thor and Co wouldn’t need a puny mortal’s help.

[Peelee]

Unnecessary, the ‘get the priest to grant us a 9th level spell’ plan only exists to circumvent the problem that the Dark One refuses to help.

I firmly believe Redcloak's comments in the first panel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) foreshadow that at some point, he will try to cast a spell and will not be able to. As a corollary, I must then believe that the plan would not at all circumvent the problem that The Dark One refuses to help. Especially since, even if RC could get it off the first time, there would be no "spot-welding (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)" afterwards, and the Snarl still ends the world. Just a few years later.

[littlebum2002]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

[137beth]

Unnecessary, the ‘get the priest to grant us a 9th level spell’ plan only exists to circumvent the problem that the Dark One refuses to help. If a god with a purple essence were on-board with sealing the Rifts, Thor and Co wouldn’t need a puny mortal’s help.

I thought the point of approaching Redcloak was that it was safer to TALK to him than to approach the Dark One. They might still need TDO to agree, but by talking to Redcloak first, it's more likely TDO will end up hearing the plan before deciding to reject it and attack.

[Cazero]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Creating resentful deities is a recipe for disaster. Eventualy, one of them will be willing to end all of creation forever out of spite, and their unique quiddity will put them in the perfect position to force such an issue with new Snarlings. Heck, TDO might already be in that boat.

[littlebum2002]

Creating resentful deities is a recipe for disaster. Eventualy, one of them will be willing to end all of creation forever out of spite, and their unique quiddity will put them in the perfect position to force such an issue with new Snarlings. Heck, TDO might already be in that boat.

How? All the deities need to do is pull the plug before the new resentful deity has the chance to end creation.

[dancrilis]

How? All the deities need to do is pull the plug before the new resentful deity has the chance to end creation.

The new deity will presumedly not disappear immediately with the world - as such all they will need to do is meet, fight and tangle together some two colour snarls.

[Anymage]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Belief (and devotion and souls) are both food and power to gods. In theory, if everybody was willing to leave a large enough group of sentients alone, the gods could foster the creation of any new quiddity they like. A greek setting with mild nudgings and none of the gods making their presence known could probably recreate the eastern pantheon, or at least something close enough to it.

Good luck getting every god in every pantheon to agree to leave that much belief on the table, instead of trying to take some of it for themselves. The fact that goblinoids were sentients who were considered beneath courting for worship was what made TDO possible. I don't think that you'd be able to get everybody to agree, and you certainly wouldn't be able to stop someone or other from sending an adventuring party with a convenient cleric into the location. Too many ways for someone to screw something up. I don't think that new quiddities can be easily generated even now that the gods know it's possible.

[Cazero]

Heck, they don't even need to know that it could create new Snarls, and breeding resentment makes such an accidental creation more likely.

[RatElemental]

I firmly believe Redcloak's comments in the first panel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) foreshadow that at some point, he will try to cast a spell and will not be able to. As a corollary, I must then believe that the plan would not at all circumvent the problem that The Dark One refuses to help. Especially since, even if RC could get it off the first time, there would be no "spot-welding (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)" afterwards, and the Snarl still ends the world. Just a few years later.

On the other hand, making a section of reality that the snarl is incapable of shredding is a hell of a test case to show the other deities what's possible here, and the ability to do that again is a fantastic bargaining chip for TDO.

[mjasghar]

Having redcloak rewarded with deification is not in line with his likely narrative destiny

[Grey Watcher]

On the other hand, making a section of reality that the snarl is incapable of shredding is a hell of a test case to show the other deities what's possible here, and the ability to do that again is a fantastic bargaining chip for TDO.

True. Because it's not like the other gods only need him once. They'll need TDO every single time a new rift forms. Which is a much stronger position from which to demand concessions than "I can kill at least one of you before you can stop me."

It remains to be seen which, if either, will be dispassionate enough to see this.

[Peelee]

On the other hand, making a section of reality that the snarl is incapable of shredding is a hell of a test case to show the other deities what's possible here, and the ability to do that again is a fantastic bargaining chip for TDO.


True. Because it's not like the other gods only need him once. They'll need TDO every single time a new rift forms. Which is a much stronger position from which to demand concessions than "I can kill at least one of you before you can stop me."

It remains to be seen which, if either, will be dispassionate enough to see this.

Ya know, I just realized... that's really the only card The Dark One has to play, and even that isn't as strong as he thinks. The ritual for the Gate takes quite some time (weeks, IIRC?), so if it looks like Redcloak is getting close to pulling it off, the gods could just unmake the world and start anew, keeping them safe and getting rid of the crazy newbie who tried to a gun to their heads. And even with the bargaining chip of "with my help, we can fix this", he can't go overboard on the demands, because if the hassle of dealing with him outweighs the permanent, snarl-free world, the gods know that a new color is possible and they can just focus on trying to recreate that; they certainly have the time. It's obviously best to try to work with TDO, but if the bird in the hand just won't stop pooping on you, the two in the bush start looking mighty appealing.

I like how it's actually a pretty even power dynamic there, with neither side really having an upper hand and each needing the other for the optimal solution.

[littlebum2002]

Belief (and devotion and souls) are both food and power to gods. In theory, if everybody was willing to leave a large enough group of sentients alone, the gods could foster the creation of any new quiddity they like. A greek setting with mild nudgings and none of the gods making their presence known could probably recreate the eastern pantheon, or at least something close enough to it.

Good luck getting every god in every pantheon to agree to leave that much belief on the table, instead of trying to take some of it for themselves. The fact that goblinoids were sentients who were considered beneath courting for worship was what made TDO possible. I don't think that you'd be able to get everybody to agree, and you certainly wouldn't be able to stop someone or other from sending an adventuring party with a convenient cleric into the location. Too many ways for someone to screw something up. I don't think that new quiddities can be easily generated even now that the gods know it's possible.

The gods have already agreed on plenty of rules, though, because of the threat of the Snarl. And even someone like Thor who thinks the rules are stupid is too afraid to break them. Plus, all the gods seem anxious to end the threat of the snarl, so why would they risk losing that opportunity just to get a minor power boost for one iteration of the world?

[dancrilis]

The gods have already agreed on plenty of rules, though, because of the threat of the Snarl. And even someone like Thor who thinks the rules are stupid is too afraid to break them. Plus, all the gods seem anxious to end the threat of the snarl, so why would they risk losing that opportunity just to get a minor power boost for one iteration of the world?

Because they don't know how that world will affect them - they could end up like Hel (or worse) and perhaps not survive until the new incarnation - there is very little point in defeating the Snarl if you die in the process (or such might be the thinking of a number of the less worship friendly gods).

[Grey Watcher]

Ya know, I just realized... that's really the only card The Dark One has to play, and even that isn't as strong as he thinks. The ritual for the Gate takes quite some time (weeks, IIRC?), so if it looks like Redcloak is getting close to pulling it off, the gods could just unmake the world and start anew, keeping them safe and getting rid of the crazy newbie who tried to a gun to their heads. And even with the bargaining chip of "with my help, we can fix this", he can't go overboard on the demands, because if the hassle of dealing with him outweighs the permanent, snarl-free world, the gods know that a new color is possible and they can just focus on trying to recreate that; they certainly have the time. It's obviously best to try to work with TDO, but if the bird in the hand just won't stop pooping on you, the two in the bush start looking mighty appealing.

I like how it's actually a pretty even power dynamic there, with neither side really having an upper hand and each needing the other for the optimal solution.

Oh don't get me wrong, it's not going to let him just steamroll his way through negotiations, but the carrot is still a step up from the stick. Assuming The Dark One's goals are what we've been told, it's should be enough leverage to get a lot of what he wants.

Of course, if TDO's goals are not as advertised, then bets are off.

[Fyraltari]

I firmly believe Redcloak's comments in the first panel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) foreshadow that at some point, he will try to cast a spell and will not be able to. As a corollary, I must then believe that the plan would not at all circumvent the problem that The Dark One refuses to help. Especially since, even if RC could get it off the first time, there would be no "spot-welding (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)" afterwards, and the Snarl still ends the world. Just a few years later.
Thor’s plan is to go behind the Dark One’s back. That’ll leave him and the other gods a few thousand years to find a way to reach to TDO. He might even cool down on his own. At the very least it would mean that TDO would have enough mojo to survive to the next world at which point he’ll have no choice but to co-operate.
Thor might even bank of TDO re-opening communications once his plan is foiled.

However Thor formulated his plan without any knowledge of the World-Within-The-World, the IFCC’s schemes and, possibly, whatever Green and Orange are up to.
His plan is not going to go the way he wanted to.

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.
You and I have very different conceptions of what ‘a better solution’ would entail. Religiously mandated genocide is not part of mine.

I thought the point of approaching Redcloak was that it was safer to TALK to him than to approach the Dark One. They might still need TDO to agree, but by talking to Redcloak first, it's more likely TDO will end up hearing the plan before deciding to reject it and attack.
No, Thor says he wants Durkon to convince Redcloak to help and that they need him to channel the Dark One’s power into their spell. Thor is trying to go behind TDO’s back.

Having redcloak rewarded with deification is not in line with his likely narrative destiny
Agreed.

I like how it's actually a pretty even power dynamic there, with neither side really having an upper hand and each needing the other for the optimal solution.
That’s what they say about compromise: it’s when nobody walks away with what they wanted.

[Grey Watcher]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Two problems:


That's liable to get them right back where they started, with the new god being super-uncooperative because they have a huge chip on their shoulder from how the mortals from whom they arose were screwed over by design from the world's planning stages. While they MIGHT do better by letting them in on the secret of the Snarl sooner than they did The Dark One, there are enough gods unwilling to be the first to extend the olive branch (eg Tyr) that they might not get the chance. So we're back to "only god with fourth quddity is hostile and impossible to safely communicate with."
Everything else that's horribly wrong with deliberately setting up a people specifically to be the targets of attempted genocide in the hopes that they'll retaliate in kind.

[Peelee]

Thor’s plan is to go behind the Dark One’s back. That’ll leave him and the other gods a few thousand years to find a way to reach to TDO.

Given that four gates have been blown wide open, I think that "a few thousand years" is wildly optimistic, since they'd be sealing the sole remaining Gate.

Also,Thor isn't trying to go behind TDO's back. He wants his cleric to talk to TDO's cleric on his behalf. I'm pretty sure any plan Durkon or Thor come up with won't involve asking Redcloak to betray his god.

[dancrilis]

... since they'd be sealing the sole remaining Gate.


I believe that the plan is to seal the rifts not the gates (panels 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)).

[Fyraltari]

Given that four gates have been blown wide open, I think that "a few thousand years" is wildly optimistic, since they'd be sealing the sole remaining Gate.
If one elf can, with the help of the ghost of one human, cast a spell that targeted thousands of creature worldwide, I feel confident that three gods can cast a spell targeting five spacetime rifts at once.


Also,Thor isn't trying to go behind TDO's back. He wants his cleric to talk to TDO's cleric on his behalf. I'm pretty sure any plan Durkon or Thor come up with won't involve asking Redcloak to betray his god.
If that were the case he wouldn’t need Redcloak to actually cast the spell, yet he specifically said he needed him to contribute.

[Cazero]

If that were the case he wouldn’t need Redcloak to actually cast the spell, yet he specifically said he needed him to contribute.
And I'm pretty sure any plan involving Redcloak casting spells will require the Dark One's approval. Because cleric.

[Peelee]

I believe that the plan is to seal the rifts not the gates (panels 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)).
Indeed. That plan requires the help of The Dark One, and not a cleric going behind his back. The cleric going behind his back could get one Gate before TDO withheld spells.

If one elf can, with the help of the ghost of one human, cast a spell that targeted thousands of creature worldwide, I feel confident that three gods can cast a spell targeting five spacetime rifts at once.
One elf who was effectively far, far into epic level. Redcloak is not. And...

If that were the case he wouldn’t need Redcloak to actually cast the spell, yet he specifically said he needed him to contribute.
Yes, because that's how the gods intercede in the material plane. If they could just boost powers all willy nilly like the other half of I quoted above, Thor could empower Durkon to one-shot Xykon. Thor can't talk to TDO directly. Thor can talk to TDO through their clerics. The clerics are devoted to their gods, and will not go behind their gods' backs all of a sudden. Redcloak ain't giving that spell slot unless he knows TDO wants him to. And, in the extremely unlikely event RC does and TDO doesn't want him to, they'll get a single gate, and TDO will be more resistant, not less, to joining with the other gods.

And, as a final aside, "let's betray The Dark One" seems like an especially monumentally bad plan to suggest to the high priest of Thr Dark One, given what Redcloak told us about The Dark One's past.

[Fyraltari]

One elf who was effectively far, far into epic level. Redcloak is not. And...
Thor and the two other gods he'll need to get access to the Southern and Western godly essence, however, are far beyond that.


Yes, because that's how the gods intercede in the material plane. If they could just boost powers all willy nilly like the other half of I quoted above, Thor could empower Durkon to one-shot Xykon. Thor can't talk to TDO directly. Thor can talk to TDO through their clerics. The clerics are devoted to their gods, and will not go behind their gods' backs all of a sudden. Redcloak ain't giving that spell slot unless he knows TDO wants him to. And, in the extremely unlikely event RC does and TDO doesn't want him to, they'll get a single gate, and TDO will be more resistant, not less, to joining with the other gods.
Except that we know the gods don't actually need to go through Clerics to interfere with the mortal plane. Here is Thor throwing lightning at a ship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html), here is the Hight Priest of Hel claiming his mistress could unleas plagues on mortals (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) and here is Hel preparing to give a mortal a heart attack (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html).
The gods have agreed to use Clerics to avoid direct confrontation with each otherfor fear of creating a Snarl but nothing would stop them to cast a spell inside the Material plane to stop the Snarl, in fact they do every time they rebuild the world.

Thor doesn't plan to have Redclaok rebuild the Gates (if he were, he'd be right **** because he would need a Cleric of each pantheon who is both A) powerful enough to cast 9th level spells and B) aware of the Snarl and he has none of those). Thor plans to have Recloak give him and his allies access to the Fifht godly essence so they can do it.

And, as a final aside, "let's betray The Dark One" seems like an especially monumentally bad plan to suggest to the high priest of Thr Dark One, given what Redcloak told us about The Dark One's past.
Like I said, the dark One would have a few thousand years to come to terms witht he fact that his Plan won't work. Meanwhile the other gods will enjoy unprecedented security. Plenty of time to better their relationship with TDO, for example by sending word to their clerics that people ought to treat goblinoids better now.

Is it a perfect plan? No. But it's a solid one and it's Thor's.

[Peelee]

Thor and the two other gods he'll need to get access to the Southern and Western godly essence, however, are far beyond that.
Shame that Redcloak doesn't get power from the Northern, Southern, and Western gods, then.

Except that we know the gods don't actually need to go through Clerics to interfere with the mortal plane. Here is Thor throwing lightning at a ship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html),
Thor is the god of lightning. His casting lightning is hardly surprising.

here is the Hight Priest of Hel claiming his mistress could unleas plagues on mortals (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)
She could, since the domain accords would be broken, which means any god could act in any way, which would probably destroy the world, in the best case scenario (worst case would be a new snarl).

and here is Hel preparing to give a mortal a heart attack (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html).
ThorHel is the god of lightningdisease. HisHer casting lightningdisease is hardly surprising.

The gods have agreed to use Clerics to avoid direct confrontation with each otherfor fear of creating a Snarl but nothing would stop them to cast a spell inside the Material plane to stop the Snarl, in fact they do every time they rebuild the world.
The Dark One would most likely strenuously object, to the point of doing whatever he wanted to the world since the other gods are also, and we're back to best-case-destroyed territory. Like, nothing we've seen suggests The Dark One is the "welp, that didn't work, let me just mope around a bit for a few millennia" kind of guy.

Is it a perfect plan? No. But it's a solid one and it's Thor's.
I didn't say it wouldn't be a perfect plan. I said it would be an especially monumentally bad plan. I see no reason to change my mind on that.

[dancrilis]

Indeed. That plan requires the help of The Dark One, and not a cleric going behind his back. The cleric going behind his back could get one Gate before TDO withheld spells.


I agree that the plan is (very) likely to be get the Dark One onboard ... but it might not need him if they have one of his clerics once.

For instance you have a lake of water and from that lake you take a bucket of water I have a lot of tea bags - you get a tea bag from me (somehow) and mix it with your bucket creating very very weak tea, well if all you need is a little tea which will last you for thousands of years then you don't really need me in any immediate sense anymore.

Now if this were the case then a level 8th spell might also work (or lower) just lasting less time but as we are not dealing with water and tea bags it is possible that a 9th is needed for a purity value (i.e sufficent power for a Miracle).

We do have a religious authority indicating that Thor is not trustworthy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html).

[Fyraltari]

Shame that Redcloak doesn't get power from the Northern, Southern, and Western gods, then.
Indeed, so what do you think Thor's plan is exactly if the gods can't act on the mortal plane? Have Redcloak cast a one-essence spell and hope that stops the three-essence Snarl?


Thor is the god of lightning. His casting lightning is hardly surprising.
[...]
ThorHel is the god of lightningdisease. HisHer casting lightningdisease is hardly surprising.
I fail to see how that adresses any of what I've said. The gods are able to act on the material plane.
Also you ignored the part where I mentionned rebuilding the world as another proof of them not needing Clerics.

She could, since the domain accords would be broken, which means any god could act in any way, which would probably destroy the world, in the best case scenario (worst case would be a new snarl).
She'd be allowed to. She always have had the power to, she just doesn't because she fears retribution if she did. The gods can act without their Clerics they mostly don't because their peers would object. Do you think any god would object to resealing the Rifts?


The Dark One would most likely strenuously object, to the point of doing whatever he wanted to the world since the other gods are also, and we're back to best-case-destroyed territory. Like, nothing we've seen suggests The Dark One is the "welp, that didn't work, let me just mope around a bit for a few millennia" kind of guy.
Nothing we've seen has shown the Dark One to be suicidal either. Freaking Fenrir abides by the rules and he finds apocalypses to be enjoyable.


I didn't say it wouldn't be a perfect plan. I said it would be an especially monumentally bad plan. I see no reason to change my mind on that.
So, again, what do you think the plan is? And why did Thor tell Durkon about needind a 9th level spell from Redclaok rather than needing him to talk to The dark One?

[Peelee]

Indeed, so what do you think Thor's plan is exactly if the gods can't act on the mortal plane? Have Redcloak cast a one-essence spell and hope that stops the three-essence Snarl?
Don't know. But having an Eastern and Southern cleric travel to the north pole seems significantly easier, while having the benefit of not cheesing off the one person who they're relying on to stop the eternal destruction of the world.

I fail to see how that adresses any of what I've said. The gods are able to act on the material plane.
Yes, in specific and limited scopes. They are not free to do whatever they please outside of those specific and limited scopes, which is what you're suggesting.

Also you ignored the part where I mentionned rebuilding the world as another proof of them not needing Clerics.
Because that's irrelevant. There is no material plane while they're building it, and they agree on terms as they build it. There are no clerics they can use at that time. It's like saying "nobody is allowed to go into the third bathroom in the house we're making". That's all well and good, but there's an obvious exception for the people who have to build the third bathroom, which ends once it's finished being built.

She'd be allowed to. She always have had the power to, she just doesn't because she fears retribution if she did. The gods can act without their Clerics they mostly don't because their peers would object. Do you think any god would object to resealing the Rifts?
She'd be allowed to because it would be retribution on Thor (and every other god would be allowed to do whatever because it would be retribution). The Dark One would also have retribution if they pulled that on him, and that retribution would most likely be destroying the world (or mess up enough of it that destroying it and starting anew would be a better alternative anyway). And, again, he could create a new Snarl if they fight him on it. Backstabbing The Dark One is a terrible idea in every possible way. It creates more problems than it solves.

Nothing we've seen has shown the Dark One to be suicidal either. Freaking Fenrir abides by the rules and he finds apocalypses to be enjoyable.
The Dark One clearly believes he can last until the next world, so he doesn't need to be suicidal.

So, again, what do you think the plan is? And why did Thor tell Durkon about needind a 9th level spell from Redclaok rather than needing him to talk to The dark One?
I think the plan is "convince the Dark One to work with us". Or, at the very least, I think the plan is absolutely not "betray 'The Dark One, who largely exists because he was betrayed, and hope everything works out fine this time!" Best case scenario, that's repeating the exact same mistake and expecting a different outcome. Worst case scenario, that is the plan and it works and the entire thematic element of "maybe we shouldn't be terrible to goblins" is massively undercut and the story has no real moral other than "be a jerk, sometimes it works!"

[dancrilis]

... the story has no real moral other than "be a jerk, sometimes it works!"

I don't do signatures but if I did ...

[Peelee]

I don't do signatures but if I did ...

Not gonna lie, I was proud of the rhyme.

[Jasdoif]

Indeed, so what do you think Thor's plan is exactly if the gods can't act on the mortal plane? Have Redcloak cast a one-essence spell and hope that stops the three-essence Snarl?I would guess the gods won't act on the rifts the mortal plane for the same reason they haven't simply created new Gates, whatever that reason may be. (My largely unsubstantiated theory is that the four-essence Snarl reacts to the magnitude of the gods' power, and one of them acting directly on the rift all but guarantees the Snarl will rush through the opening before they can accomplish anything)

So far, I think the most information we have is that Thor will explain to Durkon a ritual that calls for Redcloak to contribute a 9th-level slot; it's unclear what the rest of it entails...especially since the entire world is made of three other essences already. If I were to guess...since the Gate's spell is distinct from the physical Gate, and since the post-Gate rifts don't have immediate Snarl escapades (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html); it's possible the spells are still in place, and the ritual augments them so they function again, and better than they ever could with a physical three-essence Gate. But that's just a guess that sounds good.

[littlebum2002]

You and I have very different conceptions of what ‘a better solution’ would entail. Religiously mandated genocide is not part of mine.


Two problems:


That's liable to get them right back where they started, with the new god being super-uncooperative because they have a huge chip on their shoulder from how the mortals from whom they arose were screwed over by design from the world's planning stages. While they MIGHT do better by letting them in on the secret of the Snarl sooner than they did The Dark One, there are enough gods unwilling to be the first to extend the olive branch (eg Tyr) that they might not get the chance. So we're back to "only god with fourth quddity is hostile and impossible to safely communicate with."
Everything else that's horribly wrong with deliberately setting up a people specifically to be the targets of attempted genocide in the hopes that they'll retaliate in kind.



Well, I meant it's a "good" solution in the "will accomplish their goals" definition, not in the "morally acceptable" definition. It's on par with "get all the dwarves to start a civil war in the next 24 hours".

However, I would assume that the deities did decide to follow the morally objectionable plan of creating species just for the ability to oppress them and hope that their oppression inspires one member to rise up and become a deity, they would learn from their mistakes and try their hardest to get on the new deities' good side the second he got to the afterlife.

[Fyraltari]

Don't know. But having an Eastern and Southern cleric travel to the north pole seems significantly easier, while having the benefit of not cheesing off the one person who they're relying on to stop the eternal destruction of the world.
They can't. The rules expressely forbids them from telling mortals about the Snarl unless they already know. No Southern or Western cleric knows about the Snarl. And the two Northern clerics who do aren't powerful enough to contribute.
Also there has not been Eastern clerics for a while now.


Yes, in specific and limited scopes. They are not free to do whatever they please outside of those specific and limited scopes, which is what you're suggesting.
Do you really think any god would object to them locking up the Snarl for millenia?


Because that's irrelevant. There is no material plane while they're building it, and they agree on terms as they build it. There are no clerics they can use at that time. It's like saying "nobody is allowed to go into the third bathroom in the house we're making". That's all well and good, but there's an obvious exception for the people who have to build the third bathroom, which ends once it's finished being built.
Aren't they bulding a planet inside the Material Plane? I know D&D cosmology is wonky but I feel that if the snarl destroyed the plane it was in it'd kill itself in the process.


She'd be allowed to because it would be retribution on Thor (and every other god would be allowed to do whatever because it would be retribution).

So you agree that they have the capacity to act and that the only issue would be wether the other gods would object?



The Dark One would also have retribution if they pulled that on him, and that retribution would most likely be destroying the world (or mess up enough of it that destroying it and starting anew would be a better alternative anyway). And, again, he could create a new Snarl if they fight him on it. Backstabbing The Dark One is a terrible idea in every possible way. It creates more problems than it solves.

The Dark One clearly believes he can last until the next world, so he doesn't need to be suicidal.
TDO is not part of the Gods agreement. If he starts attacking the Material Plane in retribution to what the others have done, he can' expect the other gods to side with him against the rule-breaker. In fact he can expect them to side with their kin against him. In anay case, he knows that direct attack would most likely result in a new Snarl and so his own destruction. Therefore, him atatcking in repsonse to the thwarting of his plan, like you propose, would be suicidal.


I think the plan is "convince the Dark One to work with us". Or, at the very least, I think the plan is absolutely not "betray 'The Dark One, who largely exists because he was betrayed, and hope everything works out fine this time!" Best case scenario, that's repeating the exact same mistake and expecting a different outcome. Worst case scenario, that is the plan and it works and the entire thematic element of "maybe we shouldn't be terrible to goblins" is massively undercut and the story has no real moral other than "be a jerk, sometimes it works!"
Did you miss the part where I said I expected Thor's plan to fail or are you ignoring it? Because, yes I do think the end point of the story will be peaceful resolution between Team Violet and the rest of the gods/world. I just disagree with the proposition that Thor's planis to negotiate with the Dark One right now, when he thinks he doesn't need too and is melting the ambassadors he receives. You can't negotiate with someoen who doesn't think they have anything to lose.

I would guess the gods won't act on the rifts the mortal plane for the same reason they haven't simply created new Gates, whatever that reason may be. (My largely unsubstantiated theory is that the four-essence Snarl reacts to the magnitude of the gods' power, and one of them acting directly on the rift all but guarantees the Snarl will rush through the opening before they can accomplish anything)

So far, I think the most information we have is that Thor will explain to Durkon a ritual that calls for Redcloak to contribute a 9th-level slot; it's unclear what the rest of it entails...especially since the entire world is made of three other essences already. If I were to guess...since the Gate's spell is distinct from the physical Gate, and since the post-Gate rifts don't have immediate Snarl escapades (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html); it's possible the spells are still in place, and the ritual augments them so they function again, and better than they ever could with a physical three-essence Gate. But that's just a guess that sounds good.
The gods don't act of the Rifts because without a fourth quiddity that would be doomed to fail anyway.

[Jasdoif]

The gods don't act of the Rifts because without a fourth quiddity that would be doomed to fail anyway.I dunno...they saw the Gates do the job until someone started destroying them, and "steal copy the puny mortal magic while we wait to see if they screw up the last of their Gates" didn't even come up at the Godsmoot; so I think there's some other/additional reason.

[Peelee]

They can't. The rules expressely forbids them from telling mortals about the Snarl unless they already know. No Southern or Western cleric knows about the Snarl. And the two Northern clerics who do aren't powerful enough to contribute.
I'm actually going to save this one for last.

Do you really think any god would object to them locking up the Snarl for millenia?
....yes. The Dark One. Since, ya know, his entire plan rests on having control of where the Snarl can escape, and if he does not have that control he has no bargaining chips, to the best of his knowledge. Making a new world would be infinitely better than just sitting on the sidelines of the existing world, since he wouldn't know he had any cards left to play.

Aren't they bulding a planet inside the Material Plane? I know D&D cosmology is wonky but I feel that if the snarl destroyed the plane it was in it'd kill itself in the process.
Yeah, but if the Material Plane is empty, there's no point in not being able to act there. It doesn't make a difference until they build the world.

So you agree that they have the capacity to act and that the only issue would be wether the other gods would object?
Of course they have the capacity (see the saved-for-later part).

TDO is not part of the Gods agreement. If he starts attacking the Material Plane in retribution to what the others have done, he can' expect the other gods to side with him against the rule-breaker. In fact he can expect them to side with their kin against him. In anay case, he knows that direct attack would most likely result in a new Snarl and so his own destruction. Therefore, him atatcking in repsonse to the thwarting of his plan, like you propose, would be suicidal.
It's irrelevant that he's not part of the agreement, since he abides by it anyway. And the fact that they know about the Snarl means that, even if a new one arose, they would not be taken by surprise and would likely escape like they did before (and, in theory, many times since, given what we heard at the Godsmoot). There would just be two snarls instead of one, which would be a big problem, but would not be suicide. Further, that's like saying Tsukiko's mistakes were suicide, or Miko's mistakes were suicide, or anyone who died as the result of their own actions' mistakes were suicide; characters can be wrong, or underestimate the danger to them, and suffer the consequences, but that does not amount to suicide.

Did you miss the part where I said I expected Thor's plan to fail
Yes. I still do not like it because it requires Thor to act like an absolute ******* for no reason.

The gods don't act of the Rifts because without a fourth quiddity that would be doomed to fail anyway.
True. See the saved-for-later quote!

They can't. The rules expressely forbids them from telling mortals about the Snarl unless they already know. No Southern or Western cleric knows about the Snarl. And the two Northern clerics who do aren't powerful enough to contribute.
So does having the capacity to do it matter, or does it not matter?:smalltongue:

And, more seriously, something occurred to me - the Order of the Scribble was able to seal the rifts despite not having access to three divine quiddities - they had Dorukan and Lirian, only two (and Dorukan's wasn't divine in any event). And yet the Gates are still held up as if they are three-quiddity seals. So, we can surmise from this (or, at least, I can) the creation of the seals are, in fact, already three-quiddity, which makes sense; Durkon is already 3Q, so why would his magic not also be? So it seems as if they already have access to all three in Durkon (or Vaarsuvius, if you want a non-divine source), and they only need the fourth to complete it. Redcloak is the sole person they need, and so we are left with "how to convince Redcloak" as the problem. To which, I say again, effectively saying "hey, that god you served for your entire life, who you have dedicated everything to? Yeah, forget that guy, do this instead!" would be a patently ridiculous approach to anyone who knew anything at all about Redcloak, much less a god. Elan would be able to outsmart Thor if that was Thor's plan.

[Kaed]

I've always read the color of the quiddity of specific pantheons to not just be arbitrary differences in their color aura but representative of an overarching dynamic of how the pantheon operates. You do not see much of the culture of the Northern Pantheon's land that is not tainted by a divine bargain requiring all souls belong to one diety*, but we see extensive signs of how the other two operate.

(*some restrictions apply)

The Southern Pantheon seems to be epitomized in Azure City. Azure City is all but the capital of the Southern Pantheon's land, and they endorse a government based on stratified, tradition-bound class systems. Even their motif of being Chinese zodiac animals hearkens back to the classical cultural dynamic of that country's government. Such a structured society has tangible benefits, but it cannot exist without darker downsides For instance, I would not have been surprised if Kabuto considered Rat to be his patron deity, and the reason that Rat specifically is so upset with TDO about the conquering of Azure City is not because of the effect it had on the people, but because it represented a loss of all the fun political intrigue he had been feeding for decades or centuries. The rest of the Southern Pantheon seemingly tolerated the political backstabbing, silencing world-destroying information from the masses, and systematic oppression and sometimes genocide of other cultures (i.e. goblinoids). Order and Tradition seem to be the values that guide them. This even fits with the cool blue shade of their quiddity, which is a color often used to represent law and order.

The Eastern Pantheon, by contrast, seems to revel in a chaotic mess of competing interests all fighting over livable land. We only see a few gods represented, but their pantheon is expansive and the gods seem to embody deep fundamental concepts such as Nergal, god of Destruction and Death, whose high cleric dreamed of a day when hundreds ritualistically would be sacrificed in the name of his god every daym and Tiamat, a goddess who not only embodies chromatic dragons, but also the fundamental concept of long-spanning plans for power. Even the Elves, who quarantine themselves within the lush forests at the north of the continent, utilize their relatively Utopian existence while excluding the other races with powerful magic that prevents them from having to share their resources with the dirty non-elves. The Eastern pantheon seems to feel that Strength and Control are the most important things. This fits with their color of Quiddity, which is red, a color often given connotations of passion or rage.

In their world, the fittest survive and those who do not were not worthy to keep their power. Social order is of tertiary importance to them at best, and this can create world where tyrants are easily overthrown and freedom and transition of power is much more prevalent than in more orderly societies like the Southern Gods lands. Naturally, there are downsides to this too - with no stability or lasting tradition to build a foundation upon, there is no trust in society or even among the pantheon themselves. One tyrant is easily exchanged for another, and tyrant types are the most desirous of overthrowing the current one. Tiamat was the only one who witnessed the rise of TDO, but because of how all the deities are so deeply entrenched in their power struggles, they cannot perceive this information of a new quiddity as anything but another one of Tiamat's ploys for power.

Even their votes in the Godsmoot represent these ideologies. The Eastern Pantheon cannot tolerate the idea of their power or lives being threatened by the Snarl, and they are all too willing to destroy the world and let it be remade so they can keep their power intact. By contrast, the Southern Pantheon places a high value in what they have created and is reluctant to throw it away until they have absolutely no choice.

That being said, I cannot give much of an analysis on the Northern Gods culture. We only see a few aspects of it, and the only one that isn't a series of gags about generic location names (Somewhere, Anywhere, Someplace Else, etc.) is the Dwarven Homeland, which operates on its own special rules due to the gods screwing them over.

However, TDO has tapped into a unique form of power that is separate from all the rest. What does purple quddity represent? Well, here's my theory: Purple represents the ideological standpoint of Justice Above All. Look at how The Dark One lived his life - he was born and organized all of goblinkind under one banner, and used that power to conquer the other nations who were oppressing them. He had hypothetical power to execute all of the non-goblin leaders and take over the world, but what did he do? He attempted to negotiate a better life for his people. He sought not Order or Power, but Justice. And then he was killed, because the rulers who opposed him did not view him or his people as people.

But Justice is a loaded ideological concept. It's a nice word that people like to hear, but flip over the coin to it's darker side and you find Vengeance. And he ascended as his people took bloody vengeance upon the human nations for this latest injustice against their leader and their nation. Since then, TDO has not strayed from that ideological path of trying to seek justice and a better life for his people, he just stopped believing it was possible to do it via peaceful negotiations anymore. He set his clerics down the path of seizing the power to hold the gods themselves hostage, by any means necessary, including working working with unsavory psychotic liches and necrophiliac mages who do not share his goals, but can be manipulated or murdered as needed to achieve Justice.

"For the greater good." is extremely easy to use as a justification for any act imaginable, no matter how awful. When Redcloak looks into the mirror and sees his brother (whom he murdered in service of The Plan, for those who didn't read SoD) and tells him/himself "it will be all worth it, you'll see." you can see that has deeply internalized his gods teachings.

I don't think it's possible for another purple quiddity god to arise in the current circumstances. There is simply not enough unified purpose behind a single ideal embodied in a single individual. Redcloak operates in the shadows and with the most awful villains because his god has told him that being open about his true motives just means that the rest of the world, who is out to oppress their people, will walk all over him if he does. No one will worship him, because most goblinoids don't even know he exists. Jirix will not ascend, because he just represents a transient political face. He may be popular with his people, but he does not represent a unified ideological standpoint, just a nation's current face.

[RatElemental]

When it comes to the sealing ritual, the gates were constructed by only two people, one of whom was an arcane caster. That's two colors of divine energy at most, unless mortal spells are somehow more real than godly powers.

Since the entire material plane is made of 3 quidities Dorukan and Lirian probably didn't need to provide any at all, just the spells needed to shape them into a patch, not unlike using an iron to seal a hole in a shirt made of polymer fibers by heating and melting the existing material until it sticks together. What Redcloak would be doing is probably more akin to adding a new ingredient while the fabric is still semi-solid to make it even more resistant to tearing.

[Peelee]

When it comes to the sealing ritual, the gates were constructed by only two people, one of whom was an arcane caster. That's two colors of divine energy at most, unless mortal spells are somehow more real than godly powers.

I contend that the magic mortals use was created by the gods, and thus are 3Q just as the mortals themselves, are.

[Jasdoif]

I contend that the magic mortals use was created by the gods, and thus are 3Q just as the mortals themselves, are.Do you mean arcane magic, specifically? The whole thing hinges on Redcloak's divine magic having the same quiddity as his deity.

[woweedd]

Do you mean arcane magic, specifically? The whole thing hinges on Redcloak's divine magic having the same quiddity as his deity.
I assume so. Although, now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the different colors of magic in OOTS-earth were something the Gods came up with after looking at their own Quiddities. Nothing metaphysically significant about the colouration, but the choice to have them be colored at all was inspired by that fact.

[RatElemental]

I contend that the magic mortals use was created by the gods, and thus are 3Q just as the mortals themselves, are.

But the things Thor creates by himself are little better (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) than if a mortal wizard had done the same thing. He might have been referring specifically to illusions, maybe, but I seriously doubt wizards are wielding all the essences instead of just manipulating all the essence that happens to already make up everything around them.

[Peelee]

But the things Thor creates by himself are little better (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) than if a mortal wizard had done the same thing. He might have been referring specifically to illusions, maybe, but I seriously doubt wizards are wielding all the essences instead of just manipulating all the essence that happens to already make up everything around them.

Yes, and I find that phrasing interesting. "Little better than if made by a wizard." Not "just as a wizard does," or "like how a wizard's magic works." Two mortal casters of powered by different pantheons don't make any "more real" effects of they cast a spell together. Even Redcloak isn't casting "more real" spells, despite being a 3Q mortal powered by a 4thQ god.

The essence that happens to already make up everything around them is all three essences. All mortals, all of creation is made by all three essences. There is no line across the continental divide of the North and South lands where the yellow essence makes up everything to a point and then the blue essence makes up everything beyond that point. Their magic is as real as their swords, or their bodies, or anything else in the world, which is all three. According to Thor, Redcloak needs to channel his god's quiddity, only a tiny drop, which he equates to a 9th level spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). By Thor's standards, that's nothing. By any mortal's standards, that's a lofty feat, but doable for Redcloak. So yes, I posit that all mortal magic, arcane and divine, is made up of all three quiddities (like the entire rest of creation), and they don't need clerics from the other lands to come in and help - they just need Redcloak and The Dark One on board to supply the fourth essence.

[mjasghar]

One thing that has always puzzled me
The Snarl is made from 4 quiddities, is it not? So how can a world created by 3 pantheons hold it at all? Are the strands from the old Eastern pantheon lying about randomly spinning or are the others able to use them?

[Grey Watcher]

One thing that has always puzzled me
The Snarl is made from 4 quiddities, is it not? So how can a world created by 3 pantheons hold it at all? Are the strands from the old Eastern pantheon lying about randomly spinning or are the others able to use them?

Same way a one quiddity god can give a magic school bus piggy back ride to three-quddity souls. And the same way that any given god could theoretically stomp any given mortal. Quddity isn't the only measure of strength. The Snarl can cut through three quddity reality, but it might be less "hot knife through butter" and more "sawing through a thick tree trunk". No question that the saw will definitely cut through the wood, but it's not exactly effortless.

Now a four quddity snarl vs. a one quddity god, THAT'S more like the proverbial hot knife glaive through butter ochre jelly.

[hroþila]

The new worlds use the same threads of reality that made up the first world. At least according to the Sapphire Guard lore (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html). It might not be 100% accurate but chances are this detail is.

[Dion]

It may be true that Thor’s plan could work without TDO’s cooperation.

But if Durkon is trying to convince Redcloak to seal the rifts without TDO’s permission, that’s going to be very difficult to sell.

For starters, Redcloak is looking at a significantly worse fate than Miko if he does something that draws his god’s wrath. He’s going to immediately find himself as Nocloak, the ancient goblin 19th level cleric of a god that rejected him. And after his death (probably immediately of old age), I’m sure TDO will arrange many visits for him in the after life, but Windstriker wont be one of them.

Durkon better really persuasive here if that’s his plan.

[Peelee]

It may be true that Thor’s plan could work without TDO’s cooperation.

But if Durkon is trying to convince Redcloak to seal the rifts without TDO’s permission, that’s going to be very difficult to sell.

For starters, Redcloak is looking at a significantly worse fate than Miko if he does something that draws his god’s wrath. He’s going to immediately find himself as Nocloak, the ancient goblin 19th level cleric of a god that rejected him. And after his death (probably immediately of old age), I’m sure TDO will arrange many visits for him in the after life, but Windstriker wont be one of them.

Durkon better really persuasive here if that’s his plan.

19th level?:smallconfused:

[dancrilis]

19th level?:smallconfused:

Not confirmed but not unreasonable if Xykon is getting XP then things need to be at least CR 16 (likely higher).

If Xykon, Redcloak, The Monster in the Darkness, Oona, Greyview each count seperately (and it seems likely that Greyview does not) then each CR 16 creature would give Redcloak 680 XP 25 of them takes him to level 18 and another 34 takes him to level 19 - and that ignores everything that Xykon gets nothing for were Redcloak might still be (or anything above CR 16).

If I have things right.

On the topic of other colour Gods - I have to wonder if Xykon might be looking at becoming one probably wouldn't be a bad move for him.

[Jasdoif]

Not confirmed but not unreasonable if Xykon is getting XP then things need to be at least CR 16 (likely higher).You may be confusing the lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)'s CR adjustment of +2 and its level adjustment of +4. If Xykon is level 21, then he's ECL 25 and he doesn't get a standard experience reward for CRs under 18; and he's probably higher than level 21.

[dancrilis]

You may be confusing the lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)'s CR adjustment of +2 and its level adjustment of +4. If Xykon is level 21, then he's ECL 25 and he doesn't get a standard experience reward for CRs under 18; and he's probably higher than level 21.

I think I might need to give up on experience tables - I seem to get them backwards frequently on CR and LA.

Either way that puts Redcloak at even better odds of being higher then level 17 (especially if Xykon is higher then level 21 which I agree seems likely), with only 12 encounters needed to hit level 18 (assuming he got no XP at level 17 before he started) and only another 17 to hit level 19 (again unless me figures are wrong ... again).

[Peelee]

You may be confusing the lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)'s CR adjustment of +2 and its level adjustment of +4. If Xykon is level 21, then he's ECL 25 and he doesn't get a standard experience reward for CRs under 18; and he's probably higher than level 21.

I don't know if standard XP reward rules are being followed, given Shelby's story.

[Dion]

19th level?:smallconfused:

He’ll get a huge role playing XP boost for accepting Banjo as his new god

[Jasdoif]

I think I might need to give up on experience tables - I seem to get them backwards frequently on CR and LA.

Either way that puts Redcloak at even better odds of being higher then level 17 (especially if Xykon is higher then level 21 which I agree seems likely), with only 12 encounters needed to hit level 18 (assuming he got no XP at level 17 before he started) and only another 17 to hit level 19 (again unless me figures are wrong ... again).It really depends on a lot of things; like what Xykon's actual level is, how distributed the challenge ratings of creatures we haven't seen are, what level Oona and Greyview are to be injured but not killed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) (as a sign of the distribution of challenge ratings)....


I don't know if standard XP reward rules are being followed, given Shelby's story.Maybe he was wrong?

Actually, as was pointed out to me when this came up a while ago, 3.0 used the average party level instead of each individual's ECL to determine experience awards, and some DMs never noticed that changed in 3.5 and continued doing it the 3.0 way...but if that's what happening here, then Redcloak and Xykon get the same number of experience points, which means Redcloak only gains experience when Xykon gains experience, which would be eliminating most of the opportunities for Redcloak to be gaining experience at all.

[dancrilis]

It really depends on a lot of things; like what Xykon's actual level is, how distributed the challenge ratings of creatures we haven't seen are, what level Oona and Greyview are to be injured but not killed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) (as a sign of the distribution of challenge ratings)....


Other then using Xykon as a baseline for the experience that Redcloak might get does Xykon's (or Oona's or Greyviews for that matter) actual level matter to how much XP Redcloak gets?

To take an odd party as an example it seems to me from page 36 DMG that if PC1 is level 30, PC2 is Level 17, PC3 and PC4 and the PC5 are level 5 and the party beats a single CR 13 creature that:
PC1 : 0XP (CR to low).
PC3 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC4 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC5 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC2 : 255 XP (1275 XP for CR 13 divided by 5 for the number of people in the party).

Assuming of course those rules are in affect.

[Jasdoif]

Other then using Xykon as a baseline for the experience that Redcloak might get does Xykon's (or Oona's or Greyviews for that matter) actual level matter to how much XP Redcloak gets?No.

Since you mentioned this sort of thing earlier: If Greyview happens to be Oona's cohort through the Leadership feat or something similar, that would matter; in that case, Greyview doesn't count as one of people involved for determining the divisor on the XP award, and instead gets a separate XP award (the amount of Oona's standard XP award multiplied by the ratio of Greyview's level to Oona's level).


To take an odd party as an example it seems to me from page 36 DMG that if PC1 is level 30, PC2 is Level 17, PC3 and PC4 and the PC5 are level 5 and the party beats a single CR 13 creature that:
PC1 : 0XP (CR to low).
PC3 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC4 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC5 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC2 : 255 XP (1275 XP for CR 13 divided by 5 for the number of people in the party).

Assuming of course those rules are in affect.Technically correct, but with a level gap that wide, the DM would probably be in the position of questioning what "take part in the encounter" actually entails; which may negate PC2's involvement or increase PC2's award based on the absence of other PCs' involvement. (If nothing else, it'd be difficult for PC1 to actually participate without one-shotting the thing)

[dancrilis]

Technically correct

Huzzah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo

[Worldsong]

I'm joining the group which thinks that convincing Redcloak to betray the Dark One is a monumentally bad idea, regardless of whether he's convinced or not.


Did you miss the part where I said I expected Thor's plan to fail or are you ignoring it? Because, yes I do think the end point of the story will be peaceful resolution between Team Violet and the rest of the gods/world. I just disagree with the proposition that Thor's planis to negotiate with the Dark One right now, when he thinks he doesn't need too and is melting the ambassadors he receives. You can't negotiate with someoen who doesn't think they have anything to lose.

Maybe the idea is that if Redcloak, the Dark One's own High Cleric, asks for his help he's less likely to skip to immediate liquification. I mean Big Purple is supposed to be Evil but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whose response to his foremost servant disagreeing with him is to immediately yell "YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME."

[Fyraltari]

I'm joining the group which thinks that convincing Redcloak to betray the Dark One is a monumentally bad idea, regardless of whether he's convinced or not.
whatver you think of it, that's the plan Thor outlied to Durkon.




Maybe the idea is that if Redcloak, the Dark One's own High Cleric, asks for his help he's less likely to skip to immediate liquification. I mean Big Purple is supposed to be Evil but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whose response to his foremost servant disagreeing with him is to immediately yell "YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME."
Considering that after Redcloak built the largest goblin settlement on the planet on the ashes of a city that had been raiding hobgoblin villages for a generation, his message to said high priest amounted to "get back to work", I really don't think he'd take his High Priest arguing in favour of hi ennemis in stride, no.

[Peelee]

whatver you think of it, that's the plan Thor outlied to Durkon.

No, it's not (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). You choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to betray The Dark One. I choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to get The Dark One onboard with his plan. Given that Redcloak has explicitly told us that his magical abilities are directly dependent on The Dark One approving his actions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html), I feel that my reading is more likely than yours.

Regardless, though, your reading is not objective truth.

[Worldsong]

whatver you think of it, that's the plan Thor outlied to Durkon.

That's how you have interpreted it but I don't agree with your interpretation. I think that Thor wants Durkon to convince Redcloak to act as an intermediary so the good guys can discuss the situation with the Dark One through a channel that Big Purple won't immediately terminate. Namely his most trusted, powerful and devoted servant.


Considering that after Redcloak built the largest goblin settlement on the planet on the ashes of a city that had been raiding hobgoblin villages for a generation, his message to said high priest amounted to "get back to work", I really don't think he'd take his High Priest arguing in favour of hi ennemis in stride, no.

That just indicates that the Dark One has high demands for Redcloak. It does not equal him being willing to liquify Redcloak the moment he voices a thought that Big Purple isn't happy with.

[Jasdoif]

No, it's not (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). You choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to betray The Dark One. I choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to get The Dark One onboard with his plan.I'm pretty sure Thor expects the Dark One's high priest not to undermine his own god, even if Redcloak wanted to; much like Sunna's high priest (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html). Beyond that, going against the Dark One now all but guarantees he isn't going to cooperate with the next set of rifts (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html); though honestly I don't expect Thor to wonder why Redcloak gets on board, that's the whole point of Thor putting his faith in Durkon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html).

[Fyraltari]

No, it's not (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). You choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to betray The Dark One. I choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to get The Dark One onboard with his plan. Given that Redcloak has explicitly told us that his magical abilities are directly dependent on The Dark One approving his actions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html), I feel that my reading is more likely than yours.

Regardless, though, your reading is not objective truth.

Seriously? My reading is to take Thor's words at face value. Your reading is based on the idea that the most critical part, what Thor actually wants, is left unsaid, which is just puzzling to me. Like, He just said that TDO refused to talk to the other gods and that the gods couldn't even agree on what to do if he was willing to talk to them.

"I'm suppos'd ta convince a god?
-No, no, no. You need to convince the Dark One's high priest - you know him as Redcloak - to help us. We need him to channel his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts."

That's what is said. Thor isn't saying "You need to convince him to convince the Dark One to help us". He says to convince Redcloak to help. That Redcloak has to channel TDO's energy.

Would Redcloak lose his powers if he acted behind TDO's back? Most certainly. But only after he'd done so, not before.

[Peelee]

Seriously? My reading is to take Thor's words at face value.

No, your reading is taking Thor to say, "hey, get a high priest to betray the God he's served for fifty years now and has thrown away everything in service towards, which will also virtually guarantee that he will not help afterwards, given his history of being betrayed."

My reading is to assume Thor would not come up with possibly the most monumentally poorly-thought-out plan that relies on a high priest to betray their god, resulting on their god almost certainly refusing any further attempts to save the world.

And, if you want it on a thematic note, I do not believe the author would say "here is a horribly oppressed race with a horribly repressed god who is justifiably upset at said oppression. Let's trick him into helping us because he can't be trusted to decide for himself." It's thematically anathema to the entire point of the rest of the story, and I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to see Thor as completely blind to that.

[Dion]

I'm joining the group which thinks that convincing Redcloak to betray the Dark One is a monumentally bad idea, regardless of whether he's convinced or not.

I have to reluctantly agree with Fyraltari on this. I think Thor’s plan really is to convince Redcloak to betray TDO and seal the rift with or without his permission.

This is clearly a monumentally bad idea for Redcloak.

It seems, however, be the best option Thor has given the information Thor currently has at his disposal.

I’m going to make some predictions:

1. The book probably won’t be 20 pages long.
2. Redcloak won’t agree with the plan right away
3. Thor doesn’t know about the planet in the rift, and there exist better options Thor is not currently aware of
4. Banjo is not going to save the world

[Fyraltari]

snip

Tell you what, since neither of us is going to change the other's mind what don't we wait a xouple of strips to see what Durkon actually proposes to the goblin with the red cape?

[Worldsong]

I have to reluctantly agree with Fyraltari on this. I think Thor’s plan really is to convince Redcloak to betray TDO and seal the rift with or without his permission.

This is clearly a monumentally bad idea for Redcloak.

It seems, however, be the best option Thor has given the information Thor currently has at his disposal.

I’m going to make some predictions:

1. The book probably won’t be 20 pages long.
2. Redcloak won’t agree with the plan right away
3. Thor doesn’t know about the planet in the rift, and there exist better options Thor is not currently aware of
4. Banjo is not going to save the world

I'll make the prediction that regardless of how Thor might have meant for Durkon to approach the issue Durkon is going to try and convince Redcloak to talk to the Dark One about The Plan and Thor's proposal.

Even if it turned out that Thor's plan was for Redcloak to betray the Dark One I don't think Durkon would go about it that way. Being a cleric himself he'd probably be even more aware that convincing Redcloak to betray his deity would never work.

Actually that would be pretty satisfying from a narrative perspective: Thor has a plan but Durkon, being able to sympathize with Redcloak as a fellow mortal and cleric, realizes that a different approach is needed if they want to have a chance at succeeding.

[Fyraltari]

I'll make the prediction that regardless of how Thor might have meant for Durkon to approach the issue Durkon is going to try and convince Redcloak to talk to the Dark One about The Plan and Thor's proposal.

Even if it turned out that Thor's plan was for Redcloak to betray the Dark One I don't think Durkon would go about it that way. Being a cleric himself he'd probably be even more aware that convincing Redcloak to betray his deity would never work.

Actually that would be pretty satisfying from a narrative perspective: Thor has a plan but Durkon, being able to sympathize with Redcloak as a fellow mortal and cleric, realizes that a different approach is needed if they want to have a chance at succeeding.

Ooh, I like that one.

[RatElemental]

No, your reading is taking Thor to say, "hey, get a high priest to betray the God he's served for fifty years now and has thrown away everything in service towards, which will also virtually guarantee that he will not help afterwards, given his history of being betrayed."

My reading is to assume Thor would not come up with possibly the most monumentally poorly-thought-out plan that relies on a high priest to betray their god, resulting on their god almost certainly refusing any further attempts to save the world.

And, if you want it on a thematic note, I do not believe the author would say "here is a horribly oppressed race with a horribly repressed god who is justifiably upset at said oppression. Let's trick him into helping us because he can't be trusted to decide for himself." It's thematically anathema to the entire point of the rest of the story, and I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to see Thor as completely blind to that.

It's a well established trope for a powerful person's right hand man to make a decision behind his back that makes him look good, and then make it look like it was his idea all along. That's how I would view Redcloak deciding to "betray" the dark one. If you want the gods to make concessions, dangling the possibility of ending their biggest threat ever and giving a demonstration to show it's possible isn't a bad way of going about that.

This would also give TDO two options if Redcloak did it: Play along and negotiate with the other gods, the supposed goal of his current plan. Or take his ball and go home, achieving nothing because now there are no gates left to subvert. I could see Redcloak, if he were less invested in his sunk cost fallacy, opting to take a more expedient route to his god's stated goal.

[Peelee]

It's a well established trope for a powerful person's right hand man to make a decision behind his back that makes him look good, and then make it look like it was his idea all along. That's how I would view Redcloak deciding to "betray" the dark one. If you want the gods to make concessions, dangling the possibility of ending their biggest threat ever and giving a demonstration to show it's possible isn't a bad way of going about that.

This would also give TDO two options if Redcloak did it: Play along and negotiate with the other gods, the supposed goal of his current plan. Or take his ball and go home, achieving nothing because now there are no gates left to subvert. I could see Redcloak, if he were less invested in his sunk cost fallacy, opting to take a more expedient route to his god's stated goal.

You're assuming TDO knows thing he doesn't and trusts the other gods. He believes he can survive to the next world, so if they take away the card he wants to play, he wouldn't just fold, he would play the other card - try to destroy the world so that he can have a hand in building the next one. He has trust issues already, being betrayed by the other gods in collusion with his high priest would do nothing but exacerbate that, well-known trope or not (and I don't that trope has the powerful person aware of his right-hand man's actions at all times). Further, given that "destroy the world" is already plan B, it seems just a tad more likely than "go dull about it peacefully".

[dancrilis]

... so if they take away the card he wants to play ...

I am not sure that it would.
A four colour seal should prevent the Snarl breaking out - but we don't know how difficult it would be for someone else to break in.

The ritual to move the gates would presumedly still move the gates and the gate (and seal) may still then be broken.

It is possible that Thor's plan would effectively mean the gods don't feel rushed to end this world - but that the Dark One (and perhaps more importantly Redcloak) could still seek to gain additional advantage afterwards.

[JSSheridan]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

Would blue + yellow = green?

Or for southern + western = purple?

northern + western = orange?

[Peelee]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

At a guess? They wouldn't be able to. Or, if they could, they'd be keeping whatever color they have to begin with.

[Worldsong]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

Would blue + yellow = green?

Or for southern + western = purple?

northern + western = orange?

The colours are used to represent the essence of the gods, a fundamental part of their being. Mixing them doesn't create a new type of essence, it creates a combination of the essences used as a base. A shirt which is woven from blue and yellow threads (evenly distributed) might appear green but is still in the end formed of blue and yellow threads.

As Thor has pointed out the result of mixing several essences is stuff like mortals or the world. While something made of multiple essences has increased stability and realness they don't produce a new type of essence.

Of course it might theoretically be possible to have several gods split off and form their own group and convince the mortals so thoroughly of their new pantheon that the mortals start believing in it... but my hypothesis would be that such an act would drastically change the gods to fit the new essence (effectively killing their old selves) and require a miracle of equal rarity as the Dark One's ascension, which would render the entire exercise pointless.

[Sesharan]

Is it really a betrayal of the Dark One for Redcloak to seal the rifts, though?

Put aside the last remaining Gate for a moment, and let's just talk about the four unsealed rifts. The Dark One doesn't have any plans for those rifts, yes? His plan requires the presence of a Gate. The rifts themselves are useless to him, and in fact pose a very real threat— a threat to both the Dark One's favored nation and to his continued existence. Unless Redcloak and the Dark One want this reality to unravel, they have a vested interest in sealing those other rifts. In fact, they have a vested interest in sealing every rift that doesn't have a Gate on it. And one rift with a Gate on it is almost as good as no rifts at all, in terms of Snarl security.

And sure, that leaves the problem of the last Gate and the Plan and the ritual... but at least fixing the other rifts guarantees that Xykon can't end the world by Meteor Swarming the Gate when he realizes the ritual didn't do what he thought it would. Having Redcloak (and/or the Dark One) seal the other four rifts is a perfectly reasonable compromise.

(Also, returning to the original topic: Ever since the importance of a fourth quiddity was revealed, I've assumed that the gods would attempt to duplicate the ascension of the Dark One with a more reasonable deity at some future time. It would not be difficult to set up the next world with several expendable monster populations ripe for the apotheosis-slaughter. I even suspect that they might endeavor to create multiple deities now that they know the recipe— a five-color world-seal would probably solve their problems forever. They've been in this cycle for a very long time, after all. From the perspective of the more pragmatic deities, it would make more sense to let this world end and the Dark One along with it. Just keep making new worlds and new gods until they get one that they like.)

[Peelee]

Unless Redcloak and the Dark One want this reality to unravel, they have a vested interest in sealing those other rifts.

The Dark One's plan explicitly calls reality unraveling "Plan B."

[Sesharan]

The Dark One's plan explicitly calls reality unraveling "Plan B."

I've read Start of Darkness, and I do remember that part, but that was A) before there was a sovereign goblin nation sitting under one of the rifts, and B) before we knew that the Dark One has bad odds of surviving until the next world is made.

[Peelee]

I've read Start of Darkness, and I do remember that part, but that was A) before there was a sovereign goblin nation sitting under one of the rifts, and B) before we knew that the Dark One has bad odds of surviving until the next world is made.

A.) is irrelevant if he can have global goblin equality literally built into the world. After all, if the city was enough, there'd be no reason to continue the Plan.
B.) is something we know, but not something The Dark One knows.

[Sesharan]

A.) is irrelevant if he can have global goblin equality literally built into the world. After all, if the city was enough, there'd be no reason to continue the Plan.
B.) is something we know, but not something The Dark One knows.

I'll grant you A, but... Durkon knows about B. I have to assume he'll explain that "your god will probably die if the Snarl gets free" while trying to convince them to not let the Snarl free.

[Peelee]

I'll grant you A, but... Durkon knows about B. I have to assume he'll explain that "your god will probably die if the Snarl gets free" while trying to convince them to not let the Snarl free.

I agree that will likely be something Durkon will try. However, when your plan is to hold a gun to the head of someone else and they say "oh, that gun will kill you instead, trust us on this," that doesn't really sound terribly convincing. Imean, I certainly would love Durkon to convince Redcloak and TDO... but that's a hard hand to play.

[Worldsong]

I agree that will likely be something Durkon will try. However, when your plan is to hold a gun to the head of someone else and they say "oh, that gun will kill you instead, trust us on this," that doesn't really sound terribly convincing. Imean, I certainly would love Durkon to convince Redcloak and TDO... but that's a hard hand to play.

"In case you haven't noticed, the barrel is pointing in the wrong direction."

[HiddenTrack]

Redcloak getting reborn with Purple Quiddity is definitely an interesting possibility I hadn't properly considered.

Are there any other characters it'd be narratively satisfying to be reborn as gods? With a purple/different colour quiddity?

Obvious joke answer would be Banjo, but I feel like we've had the 'that won't work, he's a puppet' answered at the Godsmoot.

One of the main gang seems like another obvious choice... Belkar after his inevitable death? Elan becomes god of happy endings?

There is also the possibility of the dead green quiddity gods making a reappearance...

[RatElemental]

Belkar ascending as a sexy shoeless god of war has been proposed ever since he gave himself that moniker and got his death prophecy.

I suppose V could ascend as a god(dess) of redemption or something. Would be a plausible way to atone for familicide if they spent eternity inspiring and helping others to right their own wrongs and turn to good/nonevil.

[HiddenTrack]

V would be interesting... the Elves and the Elven Gods really haven't been explored much, so it feels like they have to come into things for this final book in some capacity. I'm also still not totally convinced that "I...I must succeed" are Vs right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Maybe they'll end up with ultimate arcane power (i.e. actually godhood) with some different words?

[dancrilis]

V would be interesting... the Elves and the Elven Gods really haven't been explored much, so it feels like they have to come into things for this final book in some capacity. I'm also still not totally convinced that "I...I must succeed" are Vs right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Maybe they'll end up with ultimate arcane power (i.e. actually godhood) with some different words?

I think you might be mistaking divine power for arcane power.

[Ariko]

V would be interesting... the Elves and the Elven Gods really haven't been explored much, so it feels like they have to come into things for this final book in some capacity. I'm also still not totally convinced that "I...I must succeed" are Vs right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Maybe they'll end up with ultimate arcane power (i.e. actually godhood) with some different words?

The Giant has confirmed the 4 words was the fulfillment of the prophesy.

[Emanick]

It won't happen, but it would crack me up if Roy somehow became a god (god of fighters?), given his utter lack of regard for divinity in general.

It's even somewhat plausible (using in-universe logic), since leading the team that saves the multiverse isn't a bad springboard to global fame. If everything works out for the best, he could plausibly parley that victory into a global cult following. His fantasy does involve a future where he seems to constantly get requests for autographs, so he might not mind that.

:roy: It shouldn't bother me, I know, but I can't believe Elan STILL worships a hand-puppet rather than me.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean dead gods would be a cool idea. I do love that sweet lovecraftian horror TM.
Can imagine a green quiddity Cthulhu, but I really really really very much think that that will have zero chance of happening. Although million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten, uhh, this one seems to be a one in 999,999, so uhh. No chance.

[C-Dude]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

Would blue + yellow = green?

Or for southern + western = purple?

northern + western = orange?

While goblinhood and the Dark One would seem on the surface to be purple because of the influence of the regions in which they were tormented, it doesn't pan out because their primary active range is North and South. If they were really drawing quiddity from region, they'd've been green like the Olympians (Eastern Gods) because of TDO's prominence in the North and South.

On a slightly related note, am I the only one who thinks/still thinks the Snarl is stealing souls rather than destroying them, and that the aforementioned planet in the rift belongs to the Eastern Gods and is populated by everyone the Snarl... ate?

I've been getting this vibe since Paladin Blues that the pantheons each represent a player at the game table, and that the disagreement drove East (Green) to wander off and start their own game. The disagreement is still holding them together (as possibly is the tattered threads of their former friendship), giving them glimpses (rifts) at what they're missing out on now that Green is gone.
I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[Metastachydium]

You people are using the wrong color model here. Quiddity is obviously based around the Munsell color system, where purple is one of the principal hues, alongside blue, green, yellow and red. Based on this solid knowledge, we may also safely ascertain that since Munsell only distinguishes five principal hues, no further types of quiddity are possible.

[unbjorn]

I've been toying with the idea that TDO was raised to godhood by the Snarl. Its a half baked idea at best, but there are a few ways to look at how this can work in the established Stick World canon.

One way is something like the Snarl has been trying to create its own world but hasn't found a way to create life yet, and figured that maybe it has to raise a pantheon first, something about quiddity decoupling or whatever. In this thought experiment TDO is the first member of the Snarl World pantheon, or at least the first to be able to manifest in Stick World, due to some Special Circumstances. This can even help explain how the 4 OG pantheons were originally created, basically it's Snarls all the way down.

Or scrap that last paragraph, there are other ways to see how a Snarl-raised TDO can make some sense.