"Weak" character focus around creative use of low level spells

[Greywander]

I had the idea for a character who is "weak", but uses their abilities in a creative way to take down stronger enemies. Perhaps the example of this would be Batman, a super hero without any super powers. Monkey D. Luffy from One Piece might also be a good example. So basically a character with lower tier powers but who milks them for all their worth in order to overcome a less creative but more powerful foe.

Initially, I thought to make some kind of "cantrip master", dipping into many caster classes to get lots of cantrips. But you need to go fairly deep into classes like Evoker wizard or cleric in order to get features that actually buff your cantrips. So I thought it might work to extend the concept to include 1st and 2nd level spells. The key would be to dip 3 levels into a number of caster classes, while using the spell point variant rule to get a lot more castings of these low level spells. Might as well include mundane abilities, too, like skills and item use. I'm somewhat torn between Thief, AT, or Mastermind rogue for one of the 3 level dips. By 20th level, I can take up to 6 classes to 3rd level and still have 2 levels left over. I could use this to dip just far enough into paladin to get smites, or I could boost one class up to 5th level in order to get 3rd level spells. I'm particularly interested in Dispel Magic and Counterspell.

I'm a bit worried that such a character might fall behind in higher level play, but I think they could still contribute effectively as a support character while the rest of the party does the heavy lifting. You could do things like hand out Longstrider to the entire party, or concentrate on Bless to free up the cleric or paladin's concentration for something stronger. Web and Hold Person remain fairly effective, and there are a number of decent spells that don't require concentration. It's true that nothing you'd have would be overwhelmingly powerful, but with spell points you'd still be slinging spells long after all other casters (including enemy casters) are exhausted.

I'm not sure what the final build might look like. As far as race goes, I think something that can fly might give me the best edge. If I take a winged tiefling, I can start with a stat array of 8/14/12/14/14/14, not great, but probably adequate. As for classes, I'm unsure, as I'd like to have 3 levels in rogue + all full caster classes + optional 2 levels in paladin, but that's more than 20 levels. I feel like rogue (for Cunning Action), bard (for JoAT), and warlock (for chain pact) would all be pretty critical for the concept. Druid adds some neat wildshape, cleric adds more support spells and medium armor/shields, wizard adds a whole slew of extra spells, sorcerer gets a bunch of cantrips and metamagic.

I'm also unsure of what this build should look like as it levels, except to start as a rogue for the extra skill. I really like having a chainlock familiar, so warlock might be a higher priority. I'm also unsure if I should first dip 1 level into each class, then 2, then 3, or if I should go all the way to 3 first before starting the next class. Wizard seems like a likely candidate to take to 5th level for 3rd level spells, since I'd get access to a broader set of spells (including Fireball, Dispel Magic, and Counterspell), but I'm not sure if that should happen sooner or later. Perhaps by 5th level I'd want rogue 2 / warlock 3, and by 11th level I'd be a rogue 3 / warlock 3 / wizard 5. From there I could add 3 levels each of bard, cleric, and druid, in any order.

What are your thoughts on a build like this, and how would you put it together? Is there a better way to do this? What would be the single most important feat for a build like this?

[ferrit]

Warlock seems to be the sensible start here. Patron doesn’t matter too much but if you go with Celestial you get two additional cantrips in Sacred Flame and Light.

You will have started as Variant Human and you will take the Magic Initiate feat and pick two cantrips for your choice. Go with Bard for the hell of it because they’ve got a nice set of picks for the “once a day” spell.

Pact of the Tome is the key at Level 3, giving you three more cantrips from any class spell list and tied down to one single casting stat too.

You then take a single level into Sorcerer (Divine Soul) for a whopping 4 cantrips on your existing casting stat from both the sorcerer and cleric spell lists.

You are now Level 4. You know 13 cantrips, potentially at least one from each spell list, and you cast every single one of them with CHA. From that base, you can progress literally anywhere. Cleric (Arcana/Knowledge) could be interesting, but Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster give you plenty of ways to use your cantrips in creative ways on top of your existing build.

[Nifft]

Warlock seems to be the sensible start here. Patron doesn’t matter too much but if you go with Celestial you get two additional cantrips in Sacred Flame and Light.

You will have started as Variant Human and you will take the Magic Initiate feat and pick two cantrips for your choice. Go with Bard for the hell of it because they’ve got a nice set of picks for the “once a day” spell.

Pact of the Tome is the key at Level 3, giving you three more cantrips _from any class spell list_ and tied down to one single casting stat too.

You then take a _single_ level into Sorcerer (Divine Soul) for a whopping 4 cantrips _on your existing casting stat_ from both the sorcerer _and cleric_ spell lists.

You are now Level 4. You know 13 cantrips, potentially at least one from each spell list, and you cast every single one of them with CHA.
I like this.

Maybe put every remaining level into Rogue (thief), to ensure you come across as mostly mundane.

[Willowhelm]

Looking around it seems there are theorycrafted builds to get you in the region of 40 cantrips in a 20th level character.

As i only count 46 cantrips on the spell list that is nearly all of them available. Obvious there is a lot of overlap between them so i'm sure you can ignore half a dozen. Work out your minimal viable number and you can make a build a lot less broken. (I like Ferrit's approach)

Given the lists of interesting uses for things like mold earth and shape water i'm sure you would be a very useful character through all levels. Perhaps less so in combat but even there - cantrips do scale with your overall level I believe.

Where it gets tricky for me is that you're setting yourself the goal of a "weak" character that get's by with novel uses of their abilities but you're immediately talking about making those weak abilities strong and dipping to get more powerful options like smites. This a bit like going for the RP challenge of one arm but ensuring you pick up mage hand. Or a kenku that just repeats other people's words to speak. Or a blind character who sees through their familiar.

So which is it? Do you want a weak but cunning character or do you want the most powerful cantrip use possible? If the latter and you're opening up 1st level spells then LudicSavant's take on the nuke wizard is worth a look (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170). In fact with a quick re-read of that post, they cover a *lot* of being useful without using spell slots and how to get the most out of those cantrips with a little cunning.

[Greywander]

Warlock seems to be the sensible start here. [...]

You are now Level 4. You know 13 cantrips, potentially at least one from each spell list, and you cast every single one of them with CHA. From that base, you can progress literally anywhere. Cleric (Arcana/Knowledge) could be interesting, but Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster give you plenty of ways to use your cantrips in creative ways on top of your existing build.
This does look interesting. The main thing, though, is that I feel like Pact of the Chain would end up being a lot more useful than Pact of the Tome. Tome shines if you go straight warlock as you can get all the rituals, but Chain is completely frontloaded, giving you everything you want right at 3rd level. An invisible, flying imp can do a lot, probably one of my favorite 3rd level features.

It did occur to me that a sorlock build might fit the concept decently well, albeit extending it all the way up to 5th level spells. It also occurs to me that going Divine Soul might allow me to skip taking cleric to 3, and just dip 1 level into cleric for cantrips and 1st level spells. Hmm... I'll have to put some more thought into this.


Looking around it seems there are theorycrafted builds to get you in the region of 40 cantrips in a 20th level character.

As i only count 46 cantrips on the spell list that is nearly all of them available. Obvious there is a lot of overlap between them so i'm sure you can ignore half a dozen. Work out your minimal viable number and you can make a build a lot less broken. (I like Ferrit's approach)
Wow, that's pretty ridiculous. I do love me some cantrips (as well as anything that gives at-will spells or abilities). Figuring out how many cantrips I want and working backward to find a build that gets that many sounds like a good way of doing this. There's... a lot that I want, mostly utility. As cool as telepathy is, I might have to do Celestial warlock for the two free cantrips, we'll see.


Given the lists of interesting uses for things like mold earth and shape water i'm sure you would be a very useful character through all levels. Perhaps less so in combat but even there - cantrips do scale with your overall level I believe.
Depending on how I build it, I'd also have a nice skill selection. Mediocre stats means I wouldn't be the best (except with expertise), but I could fill any gaps in the party or act as a backup/secondary skill monkey. In combat, I could probably find a 1st or 2nd level spell that would do more for me than a cantrip, although with cantrip scaling cantrips would start to outdamage most 1st level blast spells around 11th level or so.


Where it gets tricky for me is that you're setting yourself the goal of a "weak" character that get's by with novel uses of their abilities but you're immediately talking about making those weak abilities strong and dipping to get more powerful options like smites. This a bit like going for the RP challenge of one arm but ensuring you pick up mage hand. Or a kenku that just repeats other people's words to speak. Or a blind character who sees through their familiar.

So which is it? Do you want a weak but cunning character or do you want the most powerful cantrip use possible? If the latter and you're opening up 1st level spells then LudicSavant's take on the nuke wizard is worth a look (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170). In fact with a quick re-read of that post, they cover a *lot* of being useful without using spell slots and how to get the most out of those cantrips with a little cunning.
Smites were pretty much an afterthought, just something I could do with a low level investment and a lot of spell points. I can see how this led you to bring up the nuclear wizard, but I don't see the nuclear wizard as creatively using a weak spell so much as optimizing the heck out of a low level spell. And that particular tactic is completely neutralized by a Brooch of Shielding. Now, the advantage is that they're still a full wizard, so neutralizing this one specific tactic doesn't make you completely useless, but it's still just one very specific gimmick. What I'm envisioning is something more along the lines of someone with a near-bottomless supply of weak gimmicks that keep the enemy off-balance and can't be countered (there are just too many of them).

That said, Evoker gets all the best stuff for cantrips with their 6th and 10th level features. The 6th level feature even works for all cantrips (that use saves), from any class or any school. I'm beginning to think that focusing on direct damage might be a mistake for this type of character concept, though. Even with both Evoker features, your cantrip damage still pales in comparison to a mid or high level spell. If I end up with a build that doesn't get anything higher than 3rd level spells, I'm probably better off focusing on support and control spells, though Fireball is always a good pick.

[GeoffWatson]

You really need the DM to help you out with this. So talk with him first.

Superhero comics have writers, who control the villains so they always go for the toughest hero first, etc.

[JellyPooga]

Does it have to be low-level spells/abilities?

I mean, there are plenty of higher level spells that require a little bit of creative use to get the most out of them. A Warlock, for example, with Arcane Gate, Etherealness, Glibness and Foresight as his Mystic Arcanum choices is going to have to get creative compared to his counterpart with Conjure Fey, Forcecage, Feeblemind and True Polymorph, but at least isn't going to suffer the problem of bringing the pointy stick of low level spells to the nuke fight of higher level ones.

Also, having higher level spell slots doesn't mean having to use higher level spells. Upcasting lower level spells, or learning a wider repertoir of lower level spells in lieu of max level ones can very much be an option for this style of character too. A 10th level Lore Bard with no Spells Known above 3rd level could still be remarkably effective. Just to spitball a list;
1st: Bane, Healing Word
2nd: Calm Emotions, Enhance Ability, Heat Metal, Invisibility, Suggestion
3rd: (Counterspell, Conjure Animals, Gaseous Form, Mass Healing Word), Dispel Magic, Fear, Plant Growth, Tiny Hut, Hypnotic Pattern

Looks pretty decent to me and I didn't spend more than 5 minutes on it (it no doubt could use some fine tuning!). None of the effects are especially powerful, but there's plenty of creative things you can do with them and, more importantly, you're not going to lag behind too far. The biggest issue, I think, of multiclassing too much is going to be missing out on ASI's and higher level features like Cleric Domains' Divine Strike, many of which exist just to kind of balance the numbers a bit.

[moonfly7]

Personally I think what you should do here is focus on cantrips. Grab as many of those as you can. Get some good damage ones like eldritch blast, then grab a bunch of utility like control flames and mold earth and all of those. Cantrips scale woth total character level so they won't be affected by multiclassing. Now make sure you've got metamagic from sorcerer. Then just convert all your Spell slots into sorcerery points.
A lot of the utility cantrips are crazy good, and at higher levels the damage ones do really nice amounts of pain to your foes. You can basically heighten, empower, quicken, or twin every turn.
This is, in my opinion, exactly what you asked for. It's a caster that only uses "weak" spells, the metamagic lets you alter the cantrips creatively, and if you picked the right ones you've got a crazy tool box for creative tricks.
Bury opponents alive with mild earth, have flames grapple targets with control flames, use prestidigitation to light the torches in there backpacks. And with twin and quicken you can drop multiple effects and multiple cantrips a turn.
You could also save a few slots for spells you might need, but that's personal choice so or doesn't matter here.

[Quietus]

This does look interesting. The main thing, though, is that I feel like Pact of the Chain would end up being a lot more useful than Pact of the Tome. Tome shines if you go straight warlock as you can get all the rituals, but Chain is completely frontloaded, giving you everything you want right at 3rd level. An invisible, flying imp can do a lot, probably one of my favorite 3rd level features.

It did occur to me that a sorlock build might fit the concept decently well, albeit extending it all the way up to 5th level spells. It also occurs to me that going Divine Soul might allow me to skip taking cleric to 3, and just dip 1 level into cleric for cantrips and 1st level spells. Hmm... I'll have to put some more thought into this.

Getting access to *all* level 1 and 2 rituals, plus three more cantrips based on your primary stat, is absolutely worthwhile. Not that an invisible imp isn't a neat trick to have in your pocket in and of itself.

For a one level Cleric dip, consider : Arcana (2 wizard cantrips plus Arcana skill) and Nature (1 druid cantrip, 1 skill from Animal Handling, Nature, Survival, heavy armor). Light is also an option, getting you the Light cantrip and a Wis/LR reaction to provide a target disadvantage on an attack roll against you. Just keep in mind that any cantrips you pick up here key off of Wisdom, so you'll want these to be utility rather than offense.

[KorvinStarmast]

I had the idea for a character who is "weak", but uses their abilities in a creative way to take down stronger enemies.
Half elf or vHuman.
8 str 10 dex 10 con 16 wis 14 int 16 cha
Take a level each in: Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Wizard.
By sixth level you have access to a load of cantrips.
4, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3. 17 Cantrips; that's a lot of options.

You also, if you pick a lot of ritual spells from the wizard list, have some spells you can cast without using a spell slot.
You also have a load of known spells. Starting at level 7, choose which of the classes you'd most like to increase levels in, I suggest warlock for invocations and pact boon, and take that to 4 or 5, but you really can't lose with any of these choices.

Why take sorcerer first? Con proficiency saves.
Cleric second probably to use medium / metal armor
A key spell at first level: Taqsha's hideous laughter, for now and again taking down big foes for a low level slot.

[Mjolnirbear]

Charisma is a strong way to build this... But there is also artificer (specifically Artillerist).

Artificer gives you con proficiency, Armour, and shields. Artillerist gives you extra damage to artificer spells. That particular list includes firebolt, shocking grasp, chill touch, acid splash, thunderclap, and thorn whip for cantrips, and scorching ray, shield, and thunderwave for amazing damage spells. Scorching Ray does amazing damage when upcast even before the 1d8 for your Arcane Firearm and the 2d8 for your Turret.

I once compiled a list of cantrips, since there was a lot of overlap. The difference between sword burst and thunderclap is mostly superficial, and there are similarities between cantrips such as druidcraft and thaumaturgy.

So you don't actually need all the cantrips. These would be my suggestions:

1. 1 melee cantrip, 1 ranged cantrip, 1 save cantrip, 1 AoE cantrip. If you're going artillerist, these should come from the artificer list because of arcane firearm. I personally love Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, and Thunderclap. My fave save cantrip is Toll the Dead, but it's not on the Artificer list.
2. Your choice of prestidigitation, druidcraft, thaumaturgy.
3. Minor Illusion, Shape Water, Mold Earth. These are, bar none, the most versatile spells in the game, with no overlap. Get all three.
4. Base Utility: guidance, light, resistance
5. Fun Niche Picks: mending, mage hand, message, etc.

The first three points cover only 8 cantrips serving all your basic needs, and relatively small investment. The rest is pure gravy.

I'd go Artillerist 3 levels, picking Chill Touch and either Shocking Grasp or Thunderclap. These can be switched out as you level. Thorn Whip is also great for Control.

RAW, Magic Initiate: Artificer does not exist, but if it did via lenient DM, I'd pick the other two damage cantrips.

Then I'd go at least Sorcerer 3, picking up either Twin or Quicken your second pick should be Subtle or maybe Distant spell (vastly increasing the creatures you can hit with spells like Thunderclap). That's six out of 8 cantrips, too, more depending on subclass or feats.

At level six, you can pump out 4d6+2d8 thunder damage AoE hitting between 2 and 8 enemies (more with Distant) almost at-will, not including your Cannon. You'd be a 5th-level caster for spell slots, have medium armor, shields, constitution saves and invocations. It comes online incredibly early and you have access to amazing and effective spells like shield, faerie fire, suggestion, web, misty step, hold person, invisibility, levitate, and spider climb.

From here, splash war wizard or bladesinger for fun abilities or warlock for invocations to fit your concept. Alternatively, splash rogue for skills and sneak attack or fighter for durability, second wind and action surge. A two-level dip in Tempest Cleric gives you Thunderous Rebuke and a channel divinity that affects a large number of your potential spells as well as heavy armour. You can walk about the battlefield like a mobile storm. Stroll into the mist of enemies, maximize your upcast extended shatter, thunderclap, or thunderwave, then quicken and do do it again, and smirk from behind your heavy armour and Shield.

What's best is you can use any sorcerer subclass you like, you can heal, you can play tough(-ish) melee or distant caster, use heavy armour or light, and aren't particularly MAD. The same two classes can be built in dozens of ways, you have ritual casting, high-level spell slots for upcasting, massive at-will damage, and you can expand into wizard, bard, or warlock with ease and any other class you like with only minimal investment.

[KorvinStarmast]

Charisma is a strong way to build this... But there is also artificer (specifically Artillerist)..
Agree. Artillerist is kinda OP unless there are a lot of encounters each adventure day. Seen it in play.
But as we have not yet played into tier 3, not sure where their ceiling is.