Homebrew Out-of-Combat-Options fighter archetype

[Willie the Duck]

Hello all,

Since we have a 'martials are hosed' thread going at the moment (otherwise known as a day that ends in a 'y'), I don't think I have to explain the basic issue of fighters not having many class-derived* things they can do outside of combat. Beyond that, a player in my group wants to play a 'skill-monkey,' but really dislikes the 5e rogue class. Pursuant to that goal, I am contemplating a skill-monkey fighter archetype -- letting their base class abilities, coupled with ASI/feat selection, take care of their combat prowess, while their archetype features are dedicated to out-of-combat competence. Most of this could be using off-the-shelf components, but I am wondering if the whole would come together into something both playable (relatively balanced) and fun-to-play.
*nor specifically a lot of skill support

The fighter archetype model is:
Level 3 -- some archetype-defining ability, relatively balanced with other things PCs pick up at 3rd level (like 2nd level spells), but usually has a lasting value/does not become obsolete. Possibly more than one component.
Level 7 -- another ability between the L6 and L8 ASIs, often a ribbon, but not necessarily so (Samurai, for instance, get wisdom save proficiency)
Level 10 -- often an upgrade to the level 3 ability
Level 15 -- usually a sizable upgrade in power
Level 18 -- another ability, either powerful, or if L15 was powerful, perhaps just another upgrade in the L3 ability.
All of that is pretty debatable, and it isn't clear to me how much it matters if the power distribution changes much (are a bunch of people going to duck out at L11 if the L10 ability is too strong and the L15 thus a little weaker? seems unlikely to me).

Existing abilities that seem appropriate:
Bonus Proficiencies (such as from Bard College of Lore archetype (or any of many different examples)
Expertise (from Rogue and Bard base classes, or similar effects in other classes or subclasses such as Knowledge domain Clerics)
Jack of All Trades (from Bard base class)
Reliable Talent (from Rogue base class)
Remarkable Athlete (from Champion Fighter archetype)

Additionally, if we made this specifically a specific skill-monkey archetype , there are a few more options that would look out of place on a different archetype (perhaps choose-from-a-list, or the like).
Blindsense (from Rogue base class) (dungeon-delving types)
Ear for Deceit (Inquisitive Rogue archetype) (social types)
Eye for Detail (Inquisitive Rogue archetype) (quite a few, I'd imagine)
Insightful Manipulator (Mastermind Rogue archetype) (social types)
Master of Intrigue (Mastermind Rogue archetype) (social types)
Soul of Deceit (Mastermind Rogue archetype) (social types)
Umbral Sight (Gloom Stalker Ranger archetype) (dungeon-delving types)
Unerring Eye (Inquisitive Rogue archetype) (quite a few, I'd imagine)
...and probably some more.

Does this seem feasible? Is there enough skill-based stuff (either existing, or could be made) to fill out a fighter archetype? Would it work at the intended goal? For that matter, would still be a viable fighter?

Thoughts and suggestions welcome. This is still in the conceptual phase, so nothing is hammered out (other than the base idea of 'a fighter who doesn't suck at out-of-combat actions').
Thanks in advance!

[Bobthewizard]

As a general rule I'd keep it campaign specific. You can add whatever you want for a player as long as it doesn't step on another player's toes or cause balance issues.

I wouldn't give a fighter expertise if you have a rogue or bard in the party, unless you talk to them first about taking different skills. Same with all of the subtype abilities. I wouldn't give them out if someone is playing that subtype. But otherwise, if the player asks, it seems mostly balanced, and you want to do it, go for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

willie, you don't need homebrew.
Fighter
Half Elf or vHuman
Take skilled feat with an asi or a vhuman feat
tke prodigy feat with an asi or a vhuman fest

Fighters get lots of ASIs.

skills / tools galore and one expertise. One less skill with vhuman than with half elf.

[Willie the Duck]

willie, you don't need homebrew.

There certainly are options out there. This is exploring opening that area even more. 5e is all about having twelve ways to accomplish any one thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

5e is all about having twelve ways to accomplish any one thing. Heh: well said. :smallcool:

[prolific_frog]

I don't have many suggestions for the higher level abilities, but I have some ideas for the initial level.

For out-of-combat abilities that are more than just skill proficiencies, the first things I think of are abilities liked Minor Conjuration or Misty Visions. I feel the best way to give fighters an option like these is to tie new abilities to tool proficiencies. Give them 2 or 3 tool proficiencies of choice at 3rd level, and give each toolset a minor ability that can be used creatively. Xanathar's already has some stuff along these lines, such as carpenter's tools being able to fortify an entrance, so you could take a look at that for inspiration.

Beyond that, some of the following features would improve this feature, while others could be independent. Sorry if I don't have too much detail, just giving some potential ideas.

[heavyfuel]

I've always wanted a Knight/Marshall class.

The Fighter who, besides kicking butts, can also strategize gambits and play ball with nobles.

Lv 3 - Born Leader: You gain proficiency in Persuasion. If you are already proficient, you add double your proficiency bonus.

Lv 3 - Calculated Risk: If you don't have disadvantage on a roll, you can choose to roll with disadvantage. If you do so, you can add your Intelligence bonus to the roll.

You also get some benefits if you succeed despite disadvantage (I'll write them later when I have my PC with me)

Lv 7 - Leadership: You gain the services of a lower level character (maybe half your level (rounded down) is a good measure)

Lv 10 - Favoured in the Court: You know exactly what to say to get favours from those in high political standing. Favours may include a noble lending you one of their common or uncommon magical items, arranging access to spellcasting services of any spell of up to 5th level, or anything else the DM might s
deem appropriate. You can request one such favour every 1d6 weeks.

Lv 15 - Improved Risk: The benefits for taking a risk and succeeding are now much greater.

Lv 18 - Adored by the Court: You may now ask for rare or very rare magic items and access to spellcasting of any spell of up to 8th level, as well as any major favor the DM deem appropriate. You can request one such major favor every 2d6 weeks.

[MrStabby]

I wonder if the best way to do this might not be to put the skill monkey element into the class, but to have class features that let you support it better?

So for example you can cover off a lot of this with prodigy, skilled and something like ritual caster... which is utting a massive burden on your feats and needing stat increases for Int/Wisdom

So...

Let the level 3 ability require a bonus action, ideally setting up Int or Wisdom as a secondary stat to enable ritual caster

Also at level 3 give a bonus of some sort to having a free hand and a melee weapon - there are pretty much no great feats for a fighting style like this, so less loss for fewer feats


At level 7 give an ability for when you miss a target - so if primary scores are a little less it offers just a little compensation

At level 10 get proficiency in wisdom saves; again taking the edge off the need for popular feats

At 15 you can use your int/wis in place of any equipment requirements or in place of any stat to use any device - help out with heavy armour or using other equipment and lets Int/Wis take more of a role. You ignore any class/race requirments for items and feats (possibly should be earlier, but to help provide prodigy)

At 18 gain advantage on attacks against enemies stronger than you (or more dextrous if using dexterity). Final reward for not having boosted stats so much.



A framework like this might help a player take the skill focus they want at relatively low cost whilst not shoehorning them into specifc skills or traits. They can use ASIs on skilled, prodigy, actor, keen mind, ritual caster or whatever - giving them the ability to take control over character development.