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kemmotar
2007-10-28, 05:59 PM
I accidentally noticed the feeblemind spell in PhB...will save vs having your charisma and intelligence lowered to 1...plus arcane casters take -4...If i'm not mistaking the description of the spell then its the ultimate save or suck spell against casters...(sorcerers and wizards that is...)..they have a pretty low will save to begin with...seeing how wisdom is pretty much a dump stat for arcane casters...they need int/cha, con and dex...thus wis should be pretty low in most cases...add to that a -4 to the will save and you've got a caster that just can't cast...

Also, would this work against fighter in that they can't activate magic items, can't use class features and feats...i mean a lizard wouldn't have the intelligence to use anything like that...maybe they can still attack and a barbarian can rage...but i should think that they can't feats and features...

What do the playgrounders think?Its a pretty evil spell isn't it?besides...it doesn't fade and can only be dispelled by costly spells...!

Take revenge on that idiot party member meat shield...the pitiful half-orc barbarian giving you trouble at the inn:smallbiggrin:
That and power word orgasm...the ultimate social disgrace spell...still and silent spell for maximum effect!!It can be found in one of the erotic books...i think it was blue magic by mongoose publishing...definitely not erotic fantasy book though...

Innis Cabal
2007-10-28, 06:04 PM
umm.....casters highest save is will just so you know. And wis shouldnt be a dump stat for mages

huyneo
2007-10-28, 06:04 PM
better to work on an arcane caster because when their int and cha are 1 they
can't cast any spells at all.. even cantrips. Kinda Useless on anything that
constantly relies on anything that isn't int or cha. Cha and Int don't effect
will saves so only useful for that suituation.

Murderous Hobo
2007-10-28, 06:13 PM
It's a good spell but you have to soften up a mages will safe first.

kemmotar
2007-10-28, 06:15 PM
umm.....casters highest save is will just so you know. And wis shouldnt be a dump stat for mages

I know that it's their high save...though i don't think most mages would have as high wis score to resist it...maybe with fatespinner you could make it a seriously scary spell!For those who might not know fatespinner they can make opponents reroll saves and as a capstone ability(its a level 5 PrC) you can make them take -10 on a save as a free action...thus casters get -14 to the save...

Besides even without fatespinner, wisdom is not a primary score for arcane casters, plus the -4 casters take from the spell=killer spell!

How would 1 intelligence affect other characters though...?Fighters...would what i said in the first post actually happen?

greenknight
2007-10-28, 06:28 PM
Feeblemind can be really bad for Arcane spellcasters (Bard, Sorcerer and Wizard base classes in Core), and it's not such a good thing for Rogues either (they have a poor Will save and rely heavily on skills). Since most Feats don't have an Int requirement and they depend on their skills much, Fighters get off relatively easily from a feeblemind, although anything which uses Combat Expertise (including tripping builds) is going to suffer.

leperkhaun
2007-10-28, 07:10 PM
it depends. Against casters its almost always better to use a fort based save or die spell effect.

Arcane casters will have a much lower fort save even with the -4 ussually since thier fort save lags behind so much, and clerics ussually pump more into wis than con so thier fort is ussually weaker than thier will save.

however feeblemind is really nice against those casters who have Deathward up to prevent most save or die spells.

Its also good to take out a BBEG's support network. Feeblemind his general and all of a sudden his army is that much weaker.

EndgamerAzari
2007-10-28, 07:14 PM
I freakin' hate this spell. My group has found it's easier to kill the afflicted person and raise him with the XP penalty than it is to actually fix the effects.

leperkhaun
2007-10-28, 07:18 PM
how so?

At that level a heal or limited wish spell is well within the capabilities of the party. Sure it might take someone out for a little bit, but not enough to warrent lossing a spell level.

valadil
2007-10-28, 07:45 PM
By the time you can cast feeblemind, casters are getting +6 to their base will save and +3 to the others. Will is not their bad save.

I agree that this should be what you throw after they've been softened up a bit. Drop a mind fog first and if the caster is affected, end him. If not you'll still have an easier time with the tanks.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 07:48 PM
Feeblemind and ray of stupidity don't stack, 'aight?

Crow
2007-10-28, 07:53 PM
'aight?

{Scrubbed}

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 07:55 PM
{Scrubbed}

Crow
2007-10-28, 08:06 PM
{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}
In any case, I don't think there is any reason that those two spells cannot stack, unless there is a FAQ ruling or Sage ruling somewhere on the topic. Though both despite being "official", seem a little off the wall sometimes.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 08:12 PM
Yes. Seeing their low level cheesiness, a combo of them could act like a sort of killswitch for low will guys. It'd be more broken thatn Polymorph, likely.

Oh, and sorry for that post. I should have been clearer.

Crow
2007-10-28, 08:15 PM
No, I apolagize for going crazy at the sight of the word. It just irks me for some reason.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 08:17 PM
Don't know why you would capitalize irks, cutter, but I understand your plight. "Fo shizzle" lingo drives me nuts.

Wolfwood2
2007-10-28, 08:21 PM
how so?

At that level a heal or limited wish spell is well within the capabilities of the party. Sure it might take someone out for a little bit, but not enough to warrant losing a spell level.

It's well within the capabilities of the party to pay for someone to cast Heal, assuming that there is someone around to be paid. If the party is on an isolated adventure somewhere, you can't count on that.

Feeblemind only is a 5th level spell, castable by a 9th level wizard. One might reasonably encounter it as early as 7th level or so. It requires an 11th level cleric to fix, and you can't be sure of finding one of those unless you're at a Large City or better.

You see the potential problems.

EndgamerAzari
2007-10-28, 08:23 PM
how so?

At that level a heal or limited wish spell is well within the capabilities of the party. Sure it might take someone out for a little bit, but not enough to warrent lossing a spell level.

Heal is a higher-level spell than feeblemind. And our DM uses a system where you don't necessarily automatically lose a level upon being brought back to life. Still better than being useless, under any circumstances.

EDIT: My first ninja-ing!

John Campbell
2007-10-28, 09:02 PM
That spell annoys me just on principle. WTF is up with the save penalty for arcane casters? Other spells don't get random bonuses against classes that they'd work really well against, if it weren't for the target, annoyingly, having a good save against it.

(And I'm not saying this just because I'm playing an arcane caster with a relatively bad Will save. (I had to dump Wisdom to cover the other stats I needed, and Eldritch Knights have a poor Will progression, for some stupid reason. My Fort saves are awesome, though. 20 natural Con and at least two levels in each of three different classes with good Fort progressions.))

Saph
2007-10-28, 09:10 PM
Yeah, Feeblemind is a horrific spell to get hit by if you're playing an arcane caster. The -4 penalty means that you've probably only got a 50% or so chance of saving, and failing the save means you're completely and utterly useless. In some ways it's actually worse than being killed, because you have to keep playing the character, except now you can't do anything at all. You just wander around behind the rest of the party going 'Ook'.

- Saph

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 09:11 PM
And if a ray of stupidity comes for you...bye bye. You go comatose.

kemmotar
2007-10-28, 09:31 PM
For some reason i can't find ray of stupidity anywhere...i even looked at crystalkeep...i assume it deals int damage?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 09:40 PM
Yes.

Hmm...thinking of twinin'....feeblemind, ray of stupidity, programmed amnesia while the caster coma's so that you get a new great ally....

I think I just had a cheesegasm.

deadseashoals
2007-10-28, 09:43 PM
Feeblemind is pretty awesome, situationally.

Icewalker
2007-10-28, 09:49 PM
I'm noticing something rather odd in this thread.

Everybody is speaking like it is a great anti-caster spell. You hit a caster with it: they can't cast spells, and they can no longer really think, and therefore rationalize, fight, or make decisions. Int < 3 is no longer sentient. Therefore the only difference between hitting a caster as opposed to a non-caster with it is that the noncaster could still be effective in combat if it was smart enough to realize it was supposed to be fighting.

It isn't really an anti-caster effect, it's a pretty damn good all-around neutralization. The save bonus makes it anti-caster, not the effects.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-28, 09:55 PM
It's still decent against Clerics. Especially if you disjoin their cheesesticks. No more DMC!:smallbiggrin:

kemmotar
2007-10-28, 09:55 PM
Yes.

Yes...But where is it?

Person_Man
2007-10-28, 10:11 PM
Interestingly enough, if you can combine it with the Maiming Strike feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20070912a) (trade Sneak Attack damage for Cha damage on a 2d6 => 1 point basis) you can pretty much kill anything that's not immune to ability damage in 1 turn. There's no need to limit yourself to using it against spellcasters.

For example, your standard Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster build with the Draconic Claw feat, giving you a free attack whenever you cast a spell that's a standard action. Or heck, just Quicken any 0th level spell that requires an attack roll.

Nu
2007-10-28, 10:14 PM
Roleplaying a character with an Int and Cha score of 1 is fun.

Armond
2007-10-28, 10:21 PM
It's one of those things where it's got an awesome effect but is relatively easy to defend against. It relies on support, as has already been said. (Wisdom poison anyone? =\)

Aquillion
2007-10-28, 10:50 PM
I'm noticing something rather odd in this thread.

Everybody is speaking like it is a great anti-caster spell. You hit a caster with it: they can't cast spells, and they can no longer really think, and therefore rationalize, fight, or make decisions. Int < 3 is no longer sentient. Therefore the only difference between hitting a caster as opposed to a non-caster with it is that the noncaster could still be effective in combat if it was smart enough to realize it was supposed to be fighting.

It isn't really an anti-caster effect, it's a pretty damn good all-around neutralization. The save bonus makes it anti-caster, not the effects.That's not entirely true. They can no longer fight intelligently, but they can still fight; they have animal-level intelligence, but they can act at least as effectively as a well-trained dog or other beast. The spell's description explains how they should act:
If the target creature fails a Will saving throw, its Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them.It implies that a skill-monkey could still use non-int, non-cha skills, although your ability to do intelligently so would clearly be limited... presumably an affected rogue could still grunt and wave their arms in an alarmed fashion if they noticed something with spot or listen, say.

kemmotar
2007-10-28, 11:28 PM
The problem with reducing charisma to 0 is that he just becomes exceedingly appalling to anyone or anything though induces no actual battle advantage to the caster...is there anything that gives intelligence damage(apart from ray of stupidity since no one seems to telling me where i can find it..) I've found parboil, its a fortitude save, so according to our assumptions in this thread that fort saves are bad for mages..., and deals 5d6 and 2d6 intelligence...thus if he does fail the save its guaranteed the enemy is comatose...

Parboil is in sandstorm and is a 4th level spell for arcane casters...so a quite adequate combo for when you get feeble mind...plus, concerning arcane casters, its(supposedly)the low save for them so it should work quite well and then you get an arcane caster comatose!Perfectly paired with fatespinner PrC...have them reroll their succeeded saves or have them tale -10 for additional fun :smallbiggrin:

John Campbell
2007-10-29, 12:31 AM
Reducing any stat to 0 drops the target. If it's Con, it kills them; the others leave them in various sorts of helplessness. Unconscious, for any of the mental stats.

I've been dropped by having my Cha reduced to 0. We were fighting some wannabe Elder God that the DM got out of the demons book, which had feeblemind as a SLA (with a ludicrously high save DC) and emanated an aura that did Cha damage (likewise). Well, I threw something at it that didn't have much effect other than to annoy it and put a big sign over my head saying "ARCANE CASTER HERE!" It feebleminded me. I didn't roll a 20 to save.

So, of course, I did what any pissed-off dwarf with a big axe and an Int newly reduced to 1 would do. I gave a wordless roar and charged it. Right into the Cha-damage emanation, whereupon I didn't roll another 20 and dropped like a sack of meat. Fortunately, I'd turned my familiar into a wyvern earlier, and he grabbed me and flew me out before something coup de graced me.

If you're a barbarian, that's pretty much what you do anyway, so it hasn't got much real effect.

And ray of stupidity is in the Spell Compendium. I'm not sure what the original source is.

Temp
2007-10-29, 12:54 AM
I'm noticing something rather odd in this thread.

Everybody is speaking like it is a great anti-caster spell. You hit a caster with it: they can't cast spells, and they can no longer really think, and therefore rationalize, fight, or make decisions. Int < 3 is no longer sentient. Therefore the only difference between hitting a caster as opposed to a non-caster with it is that the noncaster could still be effective in combat if it was smart enough to realize it was supposed to be fighting.

It isn't really an anti-caster effect, it's a pretty damn good all-around neutralization. The save bonus makes it anti-caster, not the effects.
The problem is that there's no absolute measurement of Intelligence/Charisma scores for non-casters so its effects are up to DM judgement.

So it's hard to label as a "good anti-non-spellcaster spell" since that will vary from game to game when it always works on arcanists.

leperkhaun
2007-10-29, 12:56 AM
The problem with reducing charisma to 0 is that he just becomes exceedingly appalling to anyone or anything though induces no actual battle advantage to the caster...is there anything that gives intelligence damage(apart from ray of stupidity since no one seems to telling me where i can find it..) I've found parboil, its a fortitude save, so according to our assumptions in this thread that fort saves are bad for mages..., and deals 5d6 and 2d6 intelligence...thus if he does fail the save its guaranteed the enemy is comatose...

Reducing any stat but con to zero automatically makes that character drop to the ground helpless. Dropping CON to 0 kills it.

MCerberus
2007-10-29, 01:07 AM
More specifically,

Go to this page and look on ability score loss (http://geocities.com/sovelior/srd/abilitiesAndConditions.html) to see what flavor of uselessness your character will be beaten down to.

Kantolin
2007-10-29, 01:11 AM
Honestly, I'm a little iffy on Feeblemind.

On the one hand, it's effective when thrown at an arcanist - the -4 penalty you take makes it essentially targetting a wizard/sorcerors poor save instead of a strong one, and most wizards/sorcerors that I've seen have a higher constitution (or dexterity) than wisdom. It then, relevantly, takes them out of the fight.

(As Proof, a level 10 wizard's fortitude save of +3 is exactly four points behind their will save of +7. Therefore, at levels 1-7 and again at level 9, the penalty on feeblemind makes their will saves effectively less than their fort. At level 8 and again at levels 10-13 and again at level 15, the penalty makes their will saves effectively equal their fort. At level 14, then at levels 16-20, their will saves remain higher than their fortitude saves despite the penalty)

When thrown against a martial unit, however (Who is about as likely to fail the save due to the -4), it has relatively little effect in most cases. Anything physical which is coming at you will likely not stop doing so, although it can make tactical enemies stop acting tactically.

The big trouble is that one of my favorite spells, baleful polymorph, is also at that level for a wizard. And baleful polymorph, while not as guaranteed (Should that enemy have a stilled silent spell handy, for example, they can at least get the heck out of dodge) does pretty much the same overall job of taking a spellcaster out of a fight, on a permanent-until-dispelled basis. Admittedly, baleful polymorph doesn't require heal.

But you can then throw a baleful polymorph at a fighter - and while not the best of options given your average fighter's good fortitude save, should it work there, it will also take the fighter out of the fight (With even less chance of a defense), also on a relatively permanent-until-dispelled basis.

So I dunno. Feeblemind is admittedly harder to get rid of, but baleful polymorph seems to work on more targets (Such as enemy rogues).

Of course, the fact that you can dispel baleful but not feeblemind makes baleful a better spell to be hit with when you're a PC, particularly a caster.

Aquillion
2007-10-29, 01:19 AM
The problem is that there's no absolute measurement of Intelligence/Charisma scores for non-casters so its effects are up to DM judgement.

So it's hard to label as a "good anti-non-spellcaster spell" since that will vary from game to game when it always works on arcanists.But, as I noted, the spell's description explictly notes that you are still able to recognize and defend your friends in combat, regardless of everything else. Dropping a 1-int fighter's capability below that (in other words, incapacitating them completely, the way a wizard is incapacitated) would require a houserule that specifically amends the RAW to do something other than what it says it does. I don't think very many DMs at all are going to make that houserule, especially since it's one that makes fighter-types weaker and wizards stronger (by giving them a deadly save-or-die that hits a save that fighter-types are often weak in.)

Temp
2007-10-29, 01:55 AM
But, as I noted, the spell's description explictly notes that you are still able to recognize and defend your friends in combat, regardless of everything else. Dropping a 1-int fighter's capability below that (in other words, incapacitating them completely, the way a wizard is incapacitated) would require a houserule that specifically amends the RAW to do something other than what it says it does. I don't think very many DMs at all are going to make that houserule, especially since it's one that makes fighter-types weaker and wizards stronger (by giving them a deadly save-or-die that hits a save that fighter-types are often weak in.)

It still might mean the Fighter has his options limited to Bull Rush/Charge/Attack/Grapple/Complete Defense actions. An entirely instinctive combatant probably wouldn't use too many Trips, Disarms, Defensive Fighting Styles or anything else indirect like mounting a horse or triggering the Preset Trap o' Doom... whatever might situationally be available.

Aquillion
2007-10-29, 03:32 AM
It still might mean the Fighter has his options limited to Bull Rush/Charge/Attack/Grapple/Complete Defense actions. An entirely instinctive combatant probably wouldn't use too many Trips, Disarms, Defensive Fighting Styles or anything else indirect like mounting a horse or triggering the Preset Trap o' Doom... whatever might situationally be available.Well, yes. But if you want to disable a non-caster, there are usually much better options available, even ones that hit their will save. The only reason you'd use it on a non-caster (for purely combat elimination--there may be some specific reason you want to turn XYZ into an idiot indefinitely) is if it happens to be what you have memorized.

Shadowdweller
2007-10-29, 05:36 AM
Roleplaying a character with an Int and Cha score of 1 is fun.
Seconded. Particularly for a caster who is now massively upset for reasons he or she can neither fully articulate nor comprehend.

Leon
2007-10-29, 10:19 AM
Mind Fog then Feeblemind

Dausuul
2007-10-29, 10:25 AM
By the time you can cast feeblemind, casters are getting +6 to their base will save and +3 to the others. Will is not their bad save.

It is after you apply a -4 to it. Arcane casters might not necessarily dump Wis, but it's generally a lower priority than Dex and Con. Moreover, arcanists tend to concentrate their defenses against things that target their Fort saves, since Fort is usually a caster's Achilles heel; they're less likely to worry about having a formidable mental defense.

It lacks the general utility of baleful polymorph, but makes a good surprise weapon against casters who aren't expecting it; and while the cleric can dispel baleful polymorph with a quick third-level spell, it's not so easy to remove feeblemind.

Brawls
2007-10-29, 10:50 AM
...is there anything that gives intelligence damage(apart from ray of stupidity since no one seems to telling me where i can find it..) ...
:

Ray of Stupidity = Touch of Idiocy: 2d6 damage to Int, Wis, Cha.

Pair it up with Bestow Curse, so the opponent takes a -6 to their save attempt.

Brawls

Kaelik
2007-10-29, 12:03 PM
Ray of Stupidity = Touch of Idiocy: 2d6 damage to Int, Wis, Cha.

Pair it up with Bestow Curse, so the opponent takes a -6 to their save attempt.

Brawls

Ray of Stupidity=/=Touch of Idiocy.

Ray of Stupidity 1d4 + X Int damage as ray (I can't remember off hand)

Touch of Idiocy 1d6 Int/Cha/Wis damage as touch (Note that nothing here does 2d6 anything.)

Keld Denar
2007-10-29, 12:30 PM
Mind Fog then Feeblemind

The problem with Mind Fogging is that most things that are gonna make will saves are gonna save VS mind fog, and most things that won't save vs mind fog probably wouldn't save vs whatever you are gonna follow up with. So you've just spent an action to more readily succeed in something that probably would have succeeded anyway.

And Ray of Stupidity is 1d4+1

(or ~3d4+3 when split and empowered)

Generally, as a player, this spell is only marginally good most of the time. You are generally better off killing/permanently disabling your opponent through some other means. As a DM, if you hit your players with this spell more then once in a given campaign, they will probably drag you outside and show you what Gorillion Windmill Fleshrip REALLY looks like.

Person_Man
2007-10-29, 12:34 PM
I'd also add that as a DM, I'm very fond of using non-Con ability damage, be it poison, spells, special abilities, feats, etc. Its a serious threat that hinders and sometimes incapacitates the PCs without killing them. It also punishes stat dumping (I use point buy). And it makes the classic "taking the defeated PCs prisoner so that the DM doesn't have to deal with TPK" scenario much more plausible if they screw up and lose combat.

Keld Denar
2007-10-29, 12:51 PM
I like that...all too often I see gnome, halfling, and grey elf characters with a 6 str. A 6 STR!!!!!?! That's 1 shot territory for any meandering shadows that spontaniously pop out of the floor (as shadows are wont to do). Plus, there is about a 75% chance that 2 hits (or 1 hit by 2) also takes you out. And the problem with shadows? If they beat you, you join them. Shame shame shame on that person for dump-statting. Shame shame indeed!

Brawls
2007-10-29, 01:44 PM
Ray of Stupidity=/=Touch of Idiocy.

Ray of Stupidity 1d4 + X Int damage as ray (I can't remember off hand)

Touch of Idiocy 1d6 Int/Cha/Wis damage as touch (Note that nothing here does 2d6 anything.)
That's for clearing that up.

Seffbasilisk
2007-10-29, 02:41 PM
Feeblemind can still screw over a non-mage as well. Don't forget that feat pre-requisites have to be met for you to use them. Combat Expertise requires an int of 13. And all the feats that require Combat Expertise....

Then there's all the Cha based things, IE: Feinting, Demoralizing, Kai shouts or whatnot? Those all get dumped a good bit as well.

AND you can aim for a weak save! Savvy Fighter? Feeblemind! Now he doesn't have Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise...etc etc.

kemmotar
2007-10-29, 03:10 PM
Well..if you get a character that has dumbpstated intelligence(probably a sorcerer or cleric) you can hit them with maximized parboil for 12 intelligence damage and either heavily incapacitate them(int<3 cant speak and therefore can't cast spells, while casting spells is already quite stretching it for int<3...)Bad part is its a fort save, so even though it can be used well against arcane casters, clerics and melee classes(maybe except rogues) won't have much trouble shaking it off.

Kaelik
2007-10-29, 03:15 PM
Feeblemind can still screw over a non-mage as well. Don't forget that feat pre-requisites have to be met for you to use them. Combat Expertise requires an int of 13. And all the feats that require Combat Expertise....

Then there's all the Cha based things, IE: Feinting, Demoralizing, Kai shouts or whatnot? Those all get dumped a good bit as well.

AND you can aim for a weak save! Savvy Fighter? Feeblemind! Now he doesn't have Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise...etc etc.

Or you could use Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Savy Fighter? Now he can't do anything but lie there.

Crow
2007-10-29, 03:22 PM
Assuming you want to make your mage survive this spell, what would be the highest save DC you would need to worry about coming from this spell?

I assume it will be heightened, greater spell focused, and the caster will have maxed out his casting attribute. So with that, we are looking at;

Int 20 (grey elf), +5 (level) +5 (inher) +6 (item) = 36 (+13)

Save DC as 9th-level slot = (34?)

I am sure there are splatbook choices out there that can push it further.

My gish is only sporting like a 23 or something to will save, made into a 19 by the spell. This has about a 75% chance to stupify my gish if I don't get him first! Thank Odin for the Mantle of Second Chances.

Kioran
2007-10-29, 03:29 PM
Or you could use Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Savy Fighter? Now he can't do anything but lie there.

You forgot "....in utter shame, dying ridiculously".

Dammit, how I hate that spell.

PyritePyro
2007-10-29, 03:39 PM
So, assuming your buddy the let's say, bard, gets hit with feblemind, say from a magic item you got and gave to him that he activated that was cursed or something. Could you then use Handle Animal to train him?

Keld Denar
2007-10-29, 03:49 PM
So, assuming your buddy the let's say, bard, gets hit with feblemind, say from a magic item you got and gave to him that he activated that was cursed or something. Could you then use Handle Animal to train him?

Animal Int =/= Animal...

He still maintains the humanoid subtype. You don't become an animal if your int score drops. He would still be vulnerable to Hold Person or Charm Person, and would not be subject to spells like Animal Growth.

On the other hand,
An animal that gains int greater than 1 or 2 ceases to be an animal though, and becomes a magical beast.

PyritePyro
2007-10-29, 03:59 PM
Animal Int =/= Animal...

He still maintains the humanoid subtype. You don't become an animal if your int score drops. He would still be vulnerable to Hold Person or Charm Person, and would not be subject to spells like Animal Growth.

On the other hand,
An animal that gains int greater than 1 or 2 ceases to be an animal though, and becomes a magical beast.


What if you bribe the DM? I mean, an int of 3 or higher is one of the defining things of the humanoid type. So, you could conceivably consider them to be magical beasts, and they have an int of 1 or 2, so it would only be a -4

Kaelik
2007-10-29, 04:07 PM
Assuming you want to make your mage survive this spell, what would be the highest save DC you would need to worry about coming from this spell?

I assume it will be heightened, greater spell focused, and the caster will have maxed out his casting attribute. So with that, we are looking at;

Int 20 (grey elf), +5 (level) +5 (inher) +6 (item) = 36 (+13)

Save DC as 9th-level slot = (34?)

I am sure there are splatbook choices out there that can push it further.

My gish is only sporting like a 23 or something to will save, made into a 19 by the spell. This has about a 75% chance to stupify my gish if I don't get him first! Thank Odin for the Mantle of Second Chances.

I have no idea why the would ever Heighten it.

But other then that, a super Batman/Eight PrCs guy could easily top out his will save at level 20 in the really high plus region, and his fort save would be weaker as well. Assuming he doesn't go Necropolitian, targeting fort might be a much better idea even with the -4.

Crow
2007-10-29, 04:10 PM
They heighten it so the save DC is even higher and thus harder to hit. Not every wizard has super high will saves. For some reason the Eldritch Knight doesn't.

As always in D&D, it looks like the guy with the best offense will win again.

0oo0
2007-10-29, 04:13 PM
What if you bribe the DM? I mean, an int of 3 or higher is one of the defining things of the humanoid type. So, you could conceivably consider them to be magical beasts, and they have an int of 1 or 2, so it would only be a -4

But would it really be worth the trouble to have a crudely trained bard? I just imagine Elan with even less intelegence, and no charm :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-10-29, 04:20 PM
They heighten it so the save DC is even higher and thus harder to hit.

But they could just use a better spell to kill him.


Not every wizard has super high will saves. For some reason the Eldritch Knight doesn't.

A) The Eldritch Knight isn't a Wizard, he's a Gish that gives up two or more caster levels.
B) 95% of Wizard PrCs have good will. As such, the more PrCs a Wizard has dipped into, the more he is focused towards Will instead of Fort, therefore, the less that -4 Penalty is going to matter.

For example a lvl 15 Wizard is looking at only the difference in governing stats. (Of course he can also cast Mindblank, thus negating the whole thing anyway.) However a Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Fatespinner 4/Wayfinder Guild 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 3/Archmage 2 ends up having a huge advantage versus Feeblemind, compared to baleful Polymorph.

PyritePyro
2007-10-29, 05:53 PM
But would it really be worth the trouble to have a crudely trained bard? I just imagine Elan with even less intelegence, and no charm :smalltongue:

Yeah, but maybe the tricks would carry over for if/when he ever got unfeebleminded :belkar:

kemmotar
2007-10-29, 06:38 PM
Actually i don't think heighten spell increases the DC for the spell...I had thought about using divine metamagic+heighten spell to boost the DC for a save or die spell to the sky only to learn that heighten spell doesn't work that way(or does it?)...besides heigthening a spell to level 9 increases the DC by 4 plus it works on the premise that you can cast level 9 spells...which isn't always the case...

Feeblemind is (imo) a good spell because it's usable at a relatively low level..By the time you get to 9th level you probably have much better choices...

leperkhaun
2007-10-29, 06:49 PM
heightening a spell through heightened spell makes it for all intents and purposes a spell of that level.

Thus a fireball heightened to 9th level would have a base save of 19 (10+9th level spell) + bonus.

Kaelik
2007-10-29, 07:05 PM
Actually i don't think heighten spell increases the DC for the spell...I had thought about using divine metamagic+heighten spell to boost the DC for a save or die spell to the sky only to learn that heighten spell doesn't work that way(or does it?)...besides heigthening a spell to level 9 increases the DC by 4 plus it works on the premise that you can cast level 9 spells...which isn't always the case...

Feeblemind is (imo) a good spell because it's usable at a relatively low level..By the time you get to 9th level you probably have much better choices...

Heighten does increase the save, but DMM doesn't work well with it because it specifically says that you cannot heighten higher then level 9. And yes, it does require ninth level slots to heighten feeblemind to 9th which is precisely why you would never use it heightened. Because Black Blade of Disaster is in every way better then heightened Feeblemind.

kemmotar
2007-10-29, 07:27 PM
I think though you can get epic heighten spell to heighten a spell with DMM to the sky...literally...just use an infinite amount of nightsticks and you can get gods with int and charisma 1:smalltongue: