Being the point man of the group?

[Jon_Dahl]

Is the fact that someone has to take the point when advancing in hostile terrain an issue or a non-issue in most D&D games? I would say that it is an issue, because there is virtually no rotation, i.e. the same guy always takes the point, there are relatively few formations in use where more than one guy take the central spearhead position, and traps and other non-flanking threats make the position of the point man especially precarious. Mostly, it hurts the martial classes. What do you think?

[Qaianna]

Assuming your party remembers to use them, I'd say it leans slightly more towards the martials, as the sneaky rogue type is usually considered one; a spellcaster has some usefulness but Invisibility does wear out after a while. Unless you mean hoses them as in 'rogue roll save versus trap you just walked into'.

Again, this assumes you're bothering with one. At least in the games I remember, the point man has been the fighter to take hits and damage from whatever's waiting, and she'd call up the rogue to deal with any finesse or locks encountered. I think this is usually the 'normal' marching order: meatshield, locksmith, squishy, rearguard.

[Zanos]

Usually parties have a dedicated forward scout, like a rogue, or the most durable character, like a fighter or barbarian type. I rarely see casters do this, although they can with invisiblity and such. I find all these solutions to be bad because being out in front as a scout means there's a good chance of you either getting caught out, which is probably death for a rogue, or hit with something incredibly nasty, like a poison, pit, or death trap.

I like to use disposable creatures like animated undead or summoned monsters to take point, so anything bad that gets triggered is more likely to affect them. And then the party walks a good 20+ feet behind it so we don't get caught in big traps.

[Belzyk]

I mean usually it’s the rouge due to the fact they are able to find traps and disable them. Also rouges tend to have a high hide skill so they are harder to spot.

[Xervous]

To this day if I announce I want to play the corpse some people will nod in understanding, “ah yes, a rogue”

[Psyren]

Is the fact that someone has to take the point when advancing in hostile terrain an issue or a non-issue in most D&D games? I would say that it is an issue, because there is virtually no rotation, i.e. the same guy always takes the point, there are relatively few formations in use where more than one guy take the central spearhead position, and traps and other non-flanking threats make the position of the point man especially precarious. Mostly, it hurts the martial classes. What do you think?

Why would you rotate the scouting role? D&D parties are (usually) teams of specialists, if you have a scouting specialist then they are (or should be) the best fit for the job.

It's reasonable to ask if that's a role that you need though - and that depends entirely on your GM. If you're getting no benefit out of it - e.g. the party keeps getting surprised or ambushed - then there's no point to it and you might as well move in a group.

[Toliudar]

It's only been a problem at my table when the scout:

A) Doesn't feel supported by the rest of the group - healing when something goes wrong, or hasty backup when there's a fight.
B) Tries to take care of problems on their own, meaning that either the rest of the group has nothing to do or is having to bail the scout out of a problem that's too big for them.

[el minster]

I feel like the ranger makes a particularly good point man especially if she takes the trapfinding ACF

[Telonius]

Depends on the terrain. If you're outdoors, either the Meatshield or the person with the highest Spot check usually goes first. If you're indoors or in a dungeon, your trapfinder goes first. Could be a class with the Trapfinding feature, or more of a "Barbarian Trapfinder" (As in, "BOOM - found one! CRUNCH - there's another!") Sometimes that ends up as the same person, but not always. In a dungeon, after the Trapfinder has cleared the door, meatshield usually goes first when you breach the room, as the person most likely to survive the first volley if the enemy is prepared. I've occasionally seen that role filled by a Monk (with or without Greater Luminous Armor cast on them), on the theory that they'll have the best saves if there's a caster waiting, and may be able to deflect one or more arrow attacks.

[el minster]

Ranger has spot, listen, hide, and move silently as class skills and with trapfineding ACF gets search and disable device on a d8 HD with full BAB

[Tvtyrant]

My parties usually send some sort of infinite-summon ahead. Wand of Monkey, Summon Elemental feat, bound Ravid sending animated objects, Summoning Binder, wand of Mount, etc.

[Zanos]

To this day if I announce I want to play the corpse some people will nod in understanding, “ah yes, a rogue”
Yeah, that was usually the slang for it in my groups. Became a lot more literal when the corpse was just a zombie that we used to set off traps...

[Quertus]

Is the fact that someone has to heal the party an issue or a non-issue in most D&D games? I would say that it is an issue, because there is virtually no rotation, i.e. the same guy always does the healing, there are relatively few formations in use where more than one guy can stand with reach of the party.

I think, if we're going to talk about problems related to role protection, the concept of "face" might actually be an issue. But "point man"? There's potential for "spotlight hog" and "corpse" issues here, but… I'm not really seeing the problem in a "good" group, where they don't do the former, and go in with eyes open on the latter.

[Zanos]

Is the fact that someone has to heal the party an issue or a non-issue in most D&D games? I would say that it is an issue, because there is virtually no rotation, i.e. the same guy always does the healing, there are relatively few formations in use where more than one guy can stand with reach of the party.
Why is this in blue? Most people around here anyway agree that healing is kinda dull, and prefer to spread it among the party by pooling wealth for healing wands and other magic items.


I think, if we're going to talk about problems related to role protection, the concept of "face" might actually be an issue. But "point man"? There's potential for "spotlight hog" and "corpse" issues here, but… I'm not really seeing the problem in a "good" group, where they don't do the former, and go in with eyes open on the latter.
My opinion is that this character 'type' is substantially more likely to wind up dead, which isn't a very attractive proposition to most players. Unless you're into dying, but that's kinda rare.

[Psyren]

Why is this in blue? Most people around here anyway agree that healing is kinda dull, and prefer to spread it among the party by pooling wealth for healing wands and other magic items.

The sooner you realize that "around here" is not representative of most playgroups, the more professional RPG design will begin to make sense to you. Assuming nobody wants to be a healer except through consumable items is a niche viewpoint, and part of the reason 5e has less support for it than ever.



My opinion is that this character 'type' is substantially more likely to wind up dead, which isn't a very attractive proposition to most players. Unless you're into dying, but that's kinda rare.

As I said earlier, if there is no benefit to scouting at a given table except that the scout is in more danger than everyone else, don't do it. Some of the onus for making scouting worthwhile is on your GM. I've played with GMs where no amount of scouting allowed us to avoid ambushes, and he didn't get the message about how unfun this was (especially for the scout-focused player) until we put our feet down and said we weren't doing it anymore.

[Zanos]

The sooner you realize that "around here" is not representative of most playgroups, the more professional RPG design will begin to make sense to you. Assuming nobody wants to be a healer except through consumable items is a niche viewpoint, and part of the reason 5e has less support for it than ever.
The 5e forums, these aren't. I rarely play in a 3.5 group with a dedicated healer anymore.


As I said earlier, if there is no benefit to scouting at a given table except that the scout is in more danger than everyone else, don't do it. Some of the onus for making scouting worthwhile is on your GM. I've played with GMs where no amount of scouting allowed us to avoid ambushes, and he didn't get the message about how unfun this was (especially for the scout-focused player) until we put our feet down and said we weren't doing it anymore.
You're establishing a false dichotomy. It's possible for scouting to be both useful and substantially more dangerous than other roles simultaneously.

[Psyren]

The 5e forums, these aren't. I rarely play in a 3.5 group with a dedicated healer anymore.

My point is that it makes sense as a dedicated role. They may have missed the mark on its value back in 2003 but the fact that they have kept trying for nearly 2 decades proves that people want it to be one.


You're establishing a false dichotomy. It's possible for scouting to be both useful and substantially more dangerous than other roles simultaneously.

It's not false at all - the utility does have to outweigh the danger to make it worthwhile. Anything else is masochism.

[Quertus]

Why is this in blue? Most people around here anyway agree that healing is kinda dull, and prefer to spread it among the party by pooling wealth for healing wands and other magic items.

I suppose… it's blue because I intend it in a humorous way, as a parody of the OP?

I may agree that healing is dull, but I've certainly seen people enjoy the role.

Quertus, my Diablo character¹, could fulfill many roles; "(combat) healer" was among them.

¹ who was, of course, named for my signature academia mage :smallwink:


My opinion is that this character 'type' is substantially more likely to wind up dead, which isn't a very attractive proposition to most players. Unless you're into dying, but that's kinda rare.

IME, this archetype draws attention hogs, who would prefer to solo the module… but with an audience - preferably one that can act as a force multiplier for *their character* if need be. The "What do you mean, you feel like you're not getting to play? I never could have defeated the boss monster without you casting those buffs I told you to cast on me" type of players.

I'd usually rather play with a murderhobo who kills NPCs for "monologuing" after the second sentence² than with most players I've seen submit the concept of "scout".

Yeah, I've gamed with a lot of really bad players³. :smallfrown:

² or most of "Bizarro World", for that matter

³ and a few good ones

[Elkad]

I love playing pointman. As a rogue, though a scout or monk or trapfinding ranger would work. Hell, I've even pressed a (properly buffed, and Improved) familiar into the job at times.

You want to be a whole round of fleeing for your life in front of the party usually.

00' - Point. Stealth and detection. Classic Rogue role.
20' - Slack. High durability, shock value, helps if somewhat stealthy. Barbarian works here. His job is to either save your hide, or play roadblock until the party closes up. (if your stealth is outstanding, the badguy might run right at the Barb and let you hit it from behind)
40' - 4-6 core party members. MrClanksALot, Healbot, Tiger(druid), Tiger(actual), Wizard.
60' - Ranger/Scout. Detection for rear attacks, ranged attacks over the party, solid enough to let the Wizard and the real tanks swap places.

[el minster]

thats like 7-9 PCs?

[D+1]

Is the fact that someone has to take the point when advancing in hostile terrain an issue or a non-issue in most D&D games?Can't say I've ever seen any survey data on that, so I can't even remotely begin to speak authoritatively about "most games" - nor can just about anyone else.

I can speak about my own experience which says that there are still far too many variables to make sweeping statements. What classes are the PC's and are any of them built and geared to take point as opposed to utilizing other tactics. When any individual DOES take point what is it they're actually doing and capable of doing? It's been said above but bears repeating that the DM can invalidate any skills and benefits that might come from having someone on point. The type of enemies that are typically encountered makes a huge difference. For example, some will attack by surprise and stealth, while others will charge recklessly. "Terrain" makes a difference because it can be hard-to-move-through swamp, grass, dense underbrush, have lots of cover from boulders and trees, be a long narrow corridor or a huge open room with balconies potentially manned by archers...

Really what you should be looking at is effectiveness during the surprise round - the very opening of the combat and if any PC in particular can assist in obtaining surprise. Surprise in 3E isn't just random all the time. If a party KNOWS the enemy is there without the enemy knowing YOU are there then the PC's get surprise by default. Using a point man then in 3E is only sensible in those circumstances where there is a PC who has notable skills/ability to detect enemies without themselves being detected (like high spot and listen skill with high move silent skill), AND does so more usefully when ahead of other PC's who do not have those skills. You want a PC who can report back on an enemy presence to the other PC's before combat is even close to commencement so that the PARTY can plan the initial attack. That SHOULDN'T place the point man in greater danger - it should reduce the danger for the entire party.

However... the awarding of surprise is up to the DM who, if they really don't want to, WON'T give surprise to the PC's no matter what they do.


I would say that it is an issue, because there is virtually no rotation, i.e. the same guy always takes the point, there are relatively few formations in use where more than one guy take the central spearhead position, and traps and other non-flanking threats make the position of the point man especially precarious.Traps don't matter as far as that goes. It doesn't matter if a trap catches a point man 100' ahead of the other PC's or simply catches the first PC in the marching order if there ISN'T a point man. And you can't "search" for traps while marching.

Mostly, it hurts the martial classes. What do you think?That you're making a lot of assumptions and drawing an unsupported conclusion.