Lich's phylactery

[Railak]

Is there anything stopping a lich from making it out of riverine? The basically indestructible material from the stormwrack book?

[JNAProductions]

Is there anything stopping a lich from making it out of riverine? The basically indestructible material from the stormwrack book?

It'd make it much harder to hide, and Disintegrate works just fine on Riverine, if I recall correctly. And considering the foes a lich would face, Disintegrate is not hard for them to get.

[Psyren]

Is there anything stopping a lich from making it out of riverine? The basically indestructible material from the stormwrack book?

Depends on if you use Libris Mortis or not. It provides RAW that applies to all phylacteries:


Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40. As a magic item, it receives saving throws against magical effects that can affect objects. Its saving throw bonuses are equal to 2 + 1/2 the creator’s caster level at the time of creation (or, if the phylactery is held or worn, equal to the wearing creature’s save bonuses, if higher).

In other words, you would have a riverine phylactery that somehow has hardness 20, 40 hit points, and a 40 DC to break.

This rule also precludes "a single grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean" or the like.

[Toliudar]

I've seen players do some crazy things to protect their phylacteries. I once gave mine to the overgod of a different pantheon than the one involved with the story we were involved with. Literally, if Hercules wanted to kill me, he was going to have to take it up with Brahma.

[ShurikVch]

"Jannys Shadowgaunt":

Female Drow Lich/Greater Iron Golem
Finding this drow lich's lair in the Underdark is difficult enough without bringing in the phylactery that stores her life force: A greater iron golem, cast in the shape of a giant mechanical spider, lurks somewhere in the world above.

[aglondier]

If a phylactery has fixed stats, then using more expensive/powerful materials would mean that the final size would be much smaller. Good luck to the heroes finding that adamantine/riverine alloy pebble on that rocky beach full of pebbles...

[Psyren]

If a phylactery has fixed stats, then using more expensive/powerful materials would mean that the final size would be much smaller. Good luck to the heroes finding that adamantine/riverine alloy pebble on that rocky beach full of pebbles...

One of those fixed stats is size (Tiny). So less pebble and more rat.

[Remuko]

If a phylactery has fixed stats, then using more expensive/powerful materials would mean that the final size would be much smaller. Good luck to the heroes finding that adamantine/riverine alloy pebble on that rocky beach full of pebbles...

One of the fixed stats is Tiny size.

Edit: Ninja'd

[aglondier]

Soooooo...I could craft a phylactery from balsa wood, and it would have the same stats, exactly, as one made from mithryl or adamantine...yes?

[JNAProductions]

Soooooo...I could craft a phylactery from balsa wood, and it would have the same stats, exactly, as one made from mithryl or adamantine...yes?

According to RAW? Yes.

[Zanos]

When you create it. Nothing says you can't do stuff to it after you make it, though.

[Railak]

Even the monster manual says other forms can exist such as rings amulets and similar items, so size isn't exactly a factor. And it doesn't say mithril box just metal. I was mostly wondering if by spending the extra money to make it out of riverine is possible?

[Psyren]

When you create it. Nothing says you can't do stuff to it after you make it, though.

Depends on which stuff you have in mind. Libris Mortis again:


Most liches also disguise their phylacteries with obscure object, nondetection, Nystul’s magic aura, sequester, or similar effects to prevent easy location by enemies.
...
A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it.

[Zanos]

As far as I know, no. However, consider that if someone is in a position to physically destroy your phylactery, you're SoL anyway.


Depends on which stuff you have in mind. Libris Mortis again:
Yep, but spells should be fair game.

[Diceomancer]

So make a casing for it. The casing could me made of whatever you want, it just has to fit the original phylactery. You still have a minimum size, but additional protection from stronger materials.

[ShurikVch]

"Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40. As a magic item, it receives saving throws against magical effects that can affect objects. Its saving throw bonuses are equal to 2 + 1/2 the creator’s caster level at the time of creation (or, if the phylactery is held or worn, equal to the wearing creature’s save bonuses, if higher). "
It's, clearly, just an example!

Aforementioned Jannys Shadowgaunt, whose phylactery is a Huge Iron Golem

Phylactery of Krilla Darkhand (Libris Mortis) is on the collar of her Familiar; the Familiar itself is Tiny-sized - how could it carry something Tiny on its collar?

Aumvor the Undying (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Aumvor) used as phylactery a Human skeleton (of Netherese arcanist Dethed, a former apprentice of Ioulaum and rival of Aumvor); what size is human skeleton?

[Zanos]

Example NPCs breaking RAW? Absurd!

[ShurikVch]

Example NPCs breaking RAW? Absurd!
Do you really - REALLY! - expect for all Liches (from Fine to Colossal size) to have phylacteries of exactly Tiny size?

[Zanos]

Do you really - REALLY! - expect for all Liches (from Fine to Colossal size) to have phylacteries of exactly Tiny size?
Logically? No. RAW? It's what the book says. You can always PaO it after the fact.

Aumvor uses the individual bones of that skeleton as phylacteries, btw. Using his namesake epic spell let him have more than one.

[Psyren]

In addition to the comment on Aumvor, Krilla's is tiny too. Yeah it's around a tiny familiar's neck, but RAW is RAW.

So that just leaves Jannys, who as far as I can tell was thrown together for some kind of weird online NPC competition - not exactly formal design.

[ShurikVch]

Logically? No. RAW? It's what the book says. You can always PaO it after the fact.
Dallia Thistledown and Krilla Darkhand are "sample Liches" from the Libris Mortis
Both are Small-sized
Dallia is Bard
Krilla - Adept
No PAO for them!

Also, one more sample Lich - Durak the Eternal
He's Cleric of Vecna, and his phylactery is the cleric's Unholy Symbol
Wouldn't it be unhandy, if the Symbol in question was really 1'+ long/tall?

For Liches whose phylacteries aren't even close to the alleged "RAW parameters":
The Dead Throne (Sandstorm) acts as Lich's phylactery for whoever sit on it and agree to a bargain: "Rule my minions, and I will grant you life everlasting."
Keepers of Ahazu - Varrangoin Arcanist Liches Binder 3/Anima Mage 2 (Dungeon #148) - their phylactery is the layer of the Abyss



Aumvor uses the individual bones of that skeleton as phylacteries, btw. Using his namesake epic spell let him have more than one.
Not exactly accurate:

This spell can only be cast by a lich. It either separates the lich's phylactery into multiple objects or expands the phylactery to include multiple objects, as determined by the spellcaster.
In order to cast that epic spell, phylactery should already exist
Thus, Aumvor firstly made the skeleton into Lich's phylactery, and later - separated it

[Zanos]

Dallia Thistledown and Krilla Darkhand are "sample Liches" from the Libris Mortis
Both are Small-sized
Dallia is Bard
Krilla - Adept
No PAO for them!
Who said they had to cast it themselves?

Not that I'm even arguing that they did do this, I'm just arguing that WotC forgot about their rule for how phylacteries are stated. If you want a different phylactery for your lich, you can PAO it and still be within RAW.



Also, one more sample Liche - Durak the Eternal
He's Cleric of Vecna, and his phylactery is the cleric's Unholy Symbol
Wouldn't it be unhandy, if the Symbol in question was really 1'+ long/tall?
As per the rules phylacteries take other forms, but they always have the statistics of a tiny object. Even the examples includes objects that probably aren't tiny, a ring for example probably is not. But it has the statistics of a tiny object as described.



For Liches whose phylacteries aren't even close to the alleged "RAW parameters":
The Dead Throne (Sandstorm) acts as Lich's phylactery for whoever sit on it and agree to a bargain: "Rule my minions, and I will grant you life everlasting."
Keepers of Ahazu - Varrangoin Arcanist Liches Binder 3/Anima Mage 2 (Dungeon #148) - their phylactery is the layer of the Abyss
Examples don't change what is written in the text for liches. Also, Dungeon magazine? A man of your talents?


Not exactly accurate:

In order to cast that epic spell, phylactery should already exist
Thus, Aumvor firstly made the skeleton into Lich's phylactery, and later - separated it
As per your own quote, it can also make new objects phylacteries. So it's entirely possible he started with a single bone and later added more.

[Psyren]

lol @ Dungeon magazine.

A phylactery being a holy symbol fits with those stats fine.

[ShurikVch]

Also, Dungeon magazine? A man of your talents?
It's part of the Savage Tide Adventure Path



As per your own quote, it can also make new objects phylacteries. So it's entirely possible he started with a single bone and later added more.
No, he didn't:

Aumvor's phylactery is the rune-inscribed skeleton of Dethed, a former apprentice of Ioulaum and rival of Aumvor. Aumvor has cast his fragmented phylactery spell on his phylactery repeatedly, and scattered the individual bones of Dethed in caches hidden throughout the Endless Caverns (as well as a few in locations farther afield). Most of the 206 bones have been cloaked against all manner of divination, including detection for magic, for undead, or for location of Dethed's remains.
As we can see, he made the skeleton into phylactery, and then - divided it via the spell


And, speaking of RAW - what's Monster Manual says about it?

The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.
Sure, usually Libris Mortis would be "specific" in the "specific trump general" formula - but when "specific" flies in the face of common sense without adding anything new and interesting to the game, it may be advisable to take the "general"...

[Railak]

Didn't expect this question to become such a heated debate.

[Thurbane]

Even if you can't have your phylactery made of riverine, you could always create (or purchase) a custom made box of riverine to contain it.

[lord_khaine]

So that just leaves Jannys, who as far as I can tell was thrown together for some kind of weird online NPC competition - not exactly formal design.

And something that can be explained away with the actual phylactery being glued to the golem. Or inside of it.

Not that it matters. If someone else get their hands on it they can break it.

And if a hunter of the dead gets into the picture the phylactery doesnt matter.
So i think the extreme Hiding games grow a little silly.

[Psyren]

And, speaking of RAW - what's Monster Manual says about it?

Sure, usually Libris Mortis would be "specific" in the "specific trump general" formula - but when "specific" flies in the face of common sense without adding anything new and interesting to the game, it may be advisable to take the "general"...

RAW from the MM is "similar items" which doesn't contradict LM at all, LM is just more specific.

As for "common sense" - when the alternative is things like "riverine/adamantine alloy pebble on a beach full of pebbles" I'll take the RAW any day.

[ShurikVch]

RAW from the MM is "similar items" which doesn't contradict LM at all, LM is just more specific.
Doesn't contradict?.. :smallconfused:

such as rings, amulets, or similar items
Rings/etc aren't Tiny
They have no particular size
There is the contradiction



As for "common sense" - when the alternative is things like "riverine/adamantine alloy pebble on a beach full of pebbles" I'll take the RAW any day.
1. By the RAW in the Libris Mortis, phylactery already have hardness 20. How it's different from adamantine?
2. The "pebble on a beach" is incredibly stupid move: what if bird would swallow it? Where, exactly, would our Lich be restored?

[Psyren]

Rings/etc aren't Tiny

You can make a Tiny ring if you want. They never said it had to fit on your fingerbone :smalltongue:



2. The "pebble on a beach" is incredibly stupid move: what if bird would swallow it? Where, exactly, would our Lich be restored?

Since it's a houserule, I don't have to figure it out, it's that GM's problem.

[magwaaf]

make it a coin and hide it in a pile of money or spend it in a dwarven city/fortress/whatever, makes it ridiculously hard to find. also there's a magic rune that you can put on gear and as long as its on the same plane of existence you can summon it back to you.

[inuyasha]

Another reason why that rule about tiny phylacteries is silly is that one of the coolest liches in D&D history, Azalin Rex, has a really spectacular phylactery.
It's a gigantic golden dragon skull, which is pretty much entirely immovable and borderline indestructible.

I couldn't let that go unmentioned, hah.

[druid91]

Depends on if you use Libris Mortis or not. It provides RAW that applies to all phylacteries:



In other words, you would have a riverine phylactery that somehow has hardness 20, 40 hit points, and a 40 DC to break.

This rule also precludes "a single grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean" or the like.

i mean at that point you just stick it in a riverine cube.

[mindstalk]

i mean at that point you just stick it in a riverine cube.

At the bottom of the ocean!

I never heard of riverine before; is it like adamantine?

What's PAO?

[Thurbane]

At the bottom of the ocean!

I never heard of riverine before; is it like adamantine?

What's PAO?

Riverine is a material listed in Stormwrack, which is basically highly compressed water sandwiched in a Wall of Force type effect.

PAO is an acronym for Polymorph Any Object (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm).

[lord_khaine]

Another reason why that rule about tiny phylacteries is silly is that one of the coolest liches in D&D history, Azalin Rex, has a really spectacular phylactery.

Psyren already answered that :P
"As for "common sense" - when the alternative is things like "riverine/adamantine alloy pebble on a beach full of pebbles" I'll take the RAW any day. "

Riverine pebbles are the reason for why we cant have nice things like dragon skulls :smallbiggrin:


i mean at that point you just stick it in a riverine cube.

Thats the point where i think its fully justified saying you reform from your Phylactery. Hope there is space for a medium creature in that cube :smalltongue:

And else at the end of the day, if your not placing your Phylactery at the bottom of a dungeon, on a pedestal, guarded by the most horrible unique undead/demon/abomination you can craft/find/make.
Then your not a Lich. Your just a sad person scared of dying.

[noob]

Psyren already answered that :P
"As for "common sense" - when the alternative is things like "riverine/adamantine alloy pebble on a beach full of pebbles" I'll take the RAW any day. "

Riverine pebbles are the reason for why we cant have nice things like dragon skulls :smallbiggrin:



Thats the point where i think its fully justified saying you reform from your Phylactery. Hope there is space for a medium creature in that cube :smalltongue:

And else at the end of the day, if your not placing your Phylactery at the bottom of a dungeon, on a pedestal, guarded by the most horrible unique undead/demon/abomination you can craft/find/make.
Then your not a Lich. Your just a sad person scared of dying.

Take a small dragon: it will have a tiny skull.
however finding a small dragon that is awesome enough for having the honour of being your phylactery can be hard(you will need a dragon with class levels.)

[Tvtyrant]

You cast Genesis and then immediately make the extra dimensional space your phylactery, as it starts at 1 foot cubed and so is tiny. The dimension is locked to anyone but you.

The real question is what happens when you regrow around a dimensional space 180 feet wide?

[noob]

You cast Genesis and then immediately make the extra dimensional space your phylactery, as it starts at 1 foot cubed and so is tiny. The dimension is locked to anyone but you.

The real question is what happens when you regrow around a dimensional space 180 feet wide?

did you use the "warp around borders" or the "solid borders" option?
in the case of warp around borders it can be messy (or you can appear inside close to a border and "1 meter outside of the opposite border") and in the case of the solid borders option you probably appear out of your demiplane (where it is is unknown).

[Xar Zarath]

if OP wants phylactery of riverine, make it so. Heck at high levels it wouldn't matter much long term anyway. Any PC worth their levels would probably be able to wreck kingdoms, with magic and wealth able to take on a lich or two.