Prestige Paladin fixes?

[Gavinfoxx]

Has anyone written any? There's lots of Paladin fixes, but I've not seen any Prestige Paladin ones. Maybe something that doesn't actually weaken a Cleric going into it?

[Eldonauran]

Well, the loss of full casting progression is going to hurt the cleric, period. Most prestige classes are meant to specialize a character into a specific kind of role, and that comes with sacrificing other aspects of the original class.

Personally, I'd take some notes from the Pathfinder version of the Paladin or Warpriest, and see about filling in some of those dead levels. Bonus feats would help out a bit. Make the Will Save good progression. Improve that removed disease to help with poisons, and curses, etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, some prestige classes are meant to specialize, some are meant to boost the base class, some are meant to make the class more of a generalist, some are to make certain combos viable, some are just for GM's to use for specific groups... You can't really say "most prestige classes have you trade something out" because it's blatantly not true. And besides, there's several crazy powerful Cleric Prestige Classes already.

[Ramza00]

Cleric 6/ Prestige Paladin 3/Triadic Knight 6 (it is a 7 level prestige class) at level 15 you have

13th level Cleric Casting
12th level Mount (3+3+6=12)
13.5 BAB (4.5+3+6)

etc.

I am not saying Cleric 6 is the best entry into Prestige Paladin there is probably something better.

And if you are not using Prestige Paladin for the mount there are better Cleric Prestige Classes that make you more of a Gish. And if you are going into Prestige Paladin for the saves, remember spells like Tyche Touche, Benediction, Conviction, Mass Conviction, Greater Resistance, Superior Resistance (I am forgetting 1 or 2 really good 10 min / level, 1 hour / level save buffers that clerics have) ... etc already exist and you can always use your lower level spell slots to boost your saves while not delaying your spellcasting (much) can allow you to use your higher spell slots to end threats / buff offensively, etc.

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Now you are asking for a homebrew fix for prestige paladin, and my point with showing you what you can do with other prestige classes should help establish a baseline :smalltongue:

The short of it is, losing 2 caster levels in the first 5 levels of prestige paladin is acceptable, losing 4 more caster levels from level 6 to 15 of prestige paladin is not acceptable. Either lower the amount of caster levels lost after the first five levels, or give some really good abilities.

[Gavinfoxx]

Thanks, but I want having some sort of annoying, arbitrary code, in addition to the requirement to basically be Exalted, to come with amazing benefits. Taking on additional religious and behavioral restrictions beyond those a Cleric has, that are detrimental to your ability to have freedoms to do certain sorts of activities, should come with benefits to make it worth it. So I wanted to make Prestige Paladins the only sort of paladins that exist (ie, the base class isn't a thing), as sort of an elite type of Cleric. Given that, it should possibly be an upgrade to base Cleric or even Cloistered Cleric.

I'm thinking of using one of the paladin fixes and applying the benefits to Prestige Paladin, but I don't know which of the, like, 1000 fixes to use. Which is why I asked for examples of fixes that were targeted to Prestige Paladin, rather than just the basic Paladin.

[Maat Mons]

Oh, good. You're getting rid of the Paladin base class. No need to worry about overshadowing it then.

I'd start with full casting progression and full base attack bonus. There are arcane prestige classes that get both those things. So why not make a divine prestige class that does too?

I'd make it so you can easily enter with just Cleric 4, so you won't lose a second point of base attack bonus. Though, if you want to get a little weird, you could also give Prestige Paladin a sort of inverse of Abjurant Champion,s capstone ability. Something that automatically keeps your base attack bonus at a certain level, even if your class choices from that point on wouldn't normally do that.

For prerequisites, I'd keep them mostly to fluff. Basically, living up to the Paladin's code of honor is the major hurdle to get into the class.

How many levels are you figuring on? I could see traditional Paladin stuff filling up a 5-level class. If you want a 10-level class, you're going to have to start brainstorming new abilities.

[Ramza00]

Thanks, but I want having some sort of annoying, arbitrary code, in addition to the requirement to basically be Exalted, to come with amazing benefits. Taking on additional religious and behavioral restrictions beyond those a Cleric has, that are detrimental to your ability to have freedoms to do certain sorts of activities, should come with benefits to make it worth it. So I wanted to make Prestige Paladins the only sort of paladins that exist (ie, the base class isn't a thing), as sort of an elite type of Cleric. Given that, it should possibly be an upgrade to base Cleric or even Cloistered Cleric.

Oh that is much easier. After level 3 you get extra Smite Evil and Remove Disease uses (plus advancing already existing class feature such as Mount.) Well getting Smite Evil 2/day at lvl 5, 3 at 10, 4 at 15 is a yawn since the extra smite feat exists.

So instead layer prestige paladin with another caster / martial prestige class such as ordained champion and adjust the amount of caster levels you give to your personal play style.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, what would you guys consider (say) the top three main 'Paladin Fixes' out there, that don't stray too far from the basic class, so I can look at those for inspiration? Is there a list of well-made Paladin fixes for me to look at? I'd also like some fixes that do something about the code, so you can pick and choose appropriate restrictions!

I'd also like to get some encounter-based abilities. Perhaps Smite as an encounter ability, what fixes have that? Some Tome of Battle type stuff would be nice. I don't really need extra healing or disease based stuff (Cleric spells are good enough for handling that), but I'd like to keep some kind of mount that isn't a hassle; I'd like fixes that lean into the 'pokémount' sort of thing, maybe?

I wouldn't mind something that has room for the character to be mounted infantry rather than cavalry, ie, the mount is used as a battle taxi, the paladin fights dismounted, and since there are ways to get some pretty hefty creatures as mounts, fighting alongside the mount, where the mount is frontline tank and the paladin fights with a polearm from the second rank would be a neat combat style to enable!

[Ramza00]

In some I am hearing you want a Druid with different flavor but also cleric casting. Perhaps some form of Divine instead of Arcane Hierophant?

[Gavinfoxx]

No, I definitely want a Paladin as a Cleric prestige class. Smite. Paladin Mount (for Dragonnel/Drakkensteed obtaining, for an intelligent flying mount at low levels). (for the PrC version) Adding Paladin Spells to the Cleric list. But I like the idea of mounted infantry being a viable option as an alternative to a Knight. Something like early Dragoons or those Pre-Marian Roman units, or that Han Dynasty mounted infantry, you know?

[NigelWalmsley]

I'd start with full casting progression and full base attack bonus. There are arcane prestige classes that get both those things. So why not make a divine prestige class that does too?

This is pretty much what I'd do. It's also worth pointing out that the kind of Cleric who's interested in Prestige Paladin is probably also interested in Divine Power, which gives full BAB for free. So in practical terms, there's relatively little power creep.

[Maat Mons]

I'm not aware of any Paladin fix that did anything of substance with the Special Mount. I'm not even sure that a useful, low-hassle mount should be a class feature. That seems like something that should be available to everyone.

I went and looked through the closest thing we have to a homebrew compendium (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?120075-From-the-Playground-2-0-(Compendium)), there weren't all that many Paladin fixes listed.

[ThanatosZero]

I'm thinking of using one of the paladin fixes and applying the benefits to Prestige Paladin, but I don't know which of the, like, 1000 fixes to use. Which is why I asked for examples of fixes that were targeted to Prestige Paladin, rather than just the basic Paladin.

I recommend to create a Mystic Ranger counterpart for the Paladin. A mystic paladin or cloistered paladin, which gain their fighting abilities later and give up their mount for superior spellcasting (full casting with access to 5th and even 6th level spells), while retaining their good BAB progression.

If you was to create a Prestige and/or Cloistered Paladin, move the smiting evil ability 1 level later with increasing the gap for additional usesages.
For example: if you get normally smite evil at 1st level and each 3 levels afterward, it is postponed to the 2nd level and 4 levels afterward.
Also, I would also remove the remove disease ability as a trade in. Instead they could spontanously cast any cure wound spell + remove poison, remove disease, remove curse and restoration spells.

You can take my own take of such a class as reference.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mystic_Paladin_(3.5e_Class)

[Eldonauran]

Eh, some prestige classes are meant to specialize, some are meant to boost the base class, some are meant to make the class more of a generalist, some are to make certain combos viable, some are just for GM's to use for specific groups... You can't really say "most prestige classes have you trade something out" because it's blatantly not true. And besides, there's several crazy powerful Cleric Prestige Classes already.
When I said 'most', I meant 'most'. Just because there exist prestige classes that are objectively better than others does not make my statement any less true. All it takes is a glance at the Iron Chef threads to get a good idea at the number of prestige classes that are just BAD. Then you can see what are 'decent' (ie, flat trade offs) and those other few that are just objectively better than remaining in a single class. Even so, allowing prestige classes at all is technically a 'variant' rule, and under the purview of the game master in the first place, regardless of how common place they are.

If you WANT to ratchet up the Prestige Paladin class to go toe-to-toe with some of the more powerful prestige classes, you might have just started with that and we could have had a very different interaction. Towards that end, I'd say let's take their ability to SMITE their enemies, and tweak it to the next level. Let them turn their 'turn undead' usages into additional uses of smite evil, or see the feats Divine Might or Divine Shield.

[Gusmo]

You already get all the good stuff in the first 3 levels. Bumping it from 2/3 to 3/3 casting isn't that much of an upgrade. Full casting progression for all 15 levels makes it better to complete the whole thing, but it's still very frontloaded and better as a dip even in those circumstances. A common fix to paladins is to remove the daily use limits of remove disease and smite, and make them consume some hit points from your lay on hands pool and a use of turning, respectively. To make it worthwhile as a 10 or 15 level prestige class you'd also need to make it less frontloaded by expanding or adding abilities to make the later levels compelling. Many fixes expand the use of lay on hands (see PF paladin mercies) and make smite scale better, adding those in might be adequate.

[Gavinfoxx]

So if it was a level 5 class, should things be based on (say) the Divine Caster Level?

[Maat Mons]

I took a stab (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615031-Prestige-Paladin) at a 5-level version, if you're interested.

[Gusmo]

So if it was a level 5 class, should things be based on (say) the Divine Caster Level?

That might be reasonable, depending on the power of the underlying class features. You probably shouldn't expand lay on hands, smite, and so forth too much under such a scenario. To fill it out as a 10 level class, we could take this a step further and make it expand cleric domain powers as well, such that both your cleric domain and paladin powers use your caster level (at level 5), and perhaps eventually upgrading to your character level (at level 10). You could also paste on a martial initiator progression if you're so inclined.

[Darg]

What is trying to be done here? Is it trying to increase the power level or simply making the class more appealing than a 5 level dip? As it is, it is much stronger if somewhat delayed compared to a normal paladin. At minimum you are going to have at least 5th level spells if you go all 15 levels. If you are more martial focused you can have up to 3 bonus fighter feats or 4 levels of class features. If you want to be more caster focused, up to 7th level spells.

If you don't sacrifice spell casting then all you get is a prestige class that simply gives a hell of a lot of bonuses with no downsides. You get full BaB, all the really awesome paladin goodies, and domains. You can simply stop leveling in the class to continue leveling as cleric. That being said, just like the base class it is super dry beyond 5th level. Due to the martial prowess of the class and the loss of spellcasting I think bonus feats are in order. At levels 6 and 12 you get a bonus divine feat (probably a set list). At levels 8 and 14 you get a bonus fighter feat minus specialization. At level 10 you get a bonus feat of either type. At level 15 a capstone really isn't necessary, but if I had to I would make it something like giving your lay on hands two separate pools that are used exclusively or something flavorful but not actually empowering. Using feats this way gives you a way to power up the class without taking away that give and take hybrid feel that paladin is supposed to have.

[GrayDeath]

Well, not originally a Prestige Paladin Fix, but my Homebrew Paladin https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?515616-Paladin-a-Rework&highlight=Paladin started from a similar point of View (even if I still thought the Cleric should ahve superior Casting, but that can easily be fixed) as I also see the strong restrictions AND its "Champopion of all that is Good" as reasons for "More Power!" ^^

[Psyren]

Have you tried just taking the existing one and patching it with Prestigious Spellcaster from PF to see if you like that? That can at least tell you if the full casting would be a problem (even after paying several feats to get it) or not.

[Gusmo]

To make it more gishy, giving the war domain to the prestige paladin (regardless of deity) might be of consideration. Perhaps the ability to spontaneously cast from it as well.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'd loosen the prerequisites. Ranger and Druid potentially benefit a lot more than Cleric from Prestige Paladin via the Devoted Tracker feat.

Fun Fact: Rangers can actually already grab protection from evil by taking one of the Outsiders as their preferred enemy and then the Edgewalker Sentinel feat from Secrets of Sarlona. If Dragon Magazine is also on the table, they can then pick up God Touched and Divine Channeler for Turn Undead 1/day. If you're a human, frostblood (half)-orc (letting you trade Endurance for a feat of your choice at Ranger 3), or strongheart halfing, you can then get early entry to Prestige Paladin, picking up Devoted Tracker at 6th level at the same time as you get your paladin mount.

[Gavinfoxx]

I've been reading most of the fixes, which don't really do much to improve mounts, except making them like the Druid Companion or applying some special features to the spell 'Mount'.

Not good for someone who wants a good, smart, flying creature by level 7...

Also, is there any fix which makes the Paladin Mount specifically, you know... expendable? As it is, it really isn't. But some kind of spirit-creature where YOU are essentially it's phylactery wouldn't necessarily be overly concerned with dying in the line of duty, as a Tank type creature, would be really awesome. Anything like that anywhere?

[Gusmo]

I'm not familiar with any mount options for what you're looking for. Other than the druid, the next closest I thought of is actually the PF summoner.

[Bavarian itP]

I'd loosen the prerequisites. Ranger and Druid potentially benefit a lot more than Cleric from Prestige Paladin via the Devoted Tracker feat.

Fun Fact: Rangers can actually already grab protection from evil by taking one of the Outsiders as their preferred enemy and then the Edgewalker Sentinel feat from Secrets of Sarlona. If Dragon Magazine is also on the table, they can then pick up God Touched and Divine Channeler for Turn Undead 1/day. If you're a human, frostblood (half)-orc (letting you trade Endurance for a feat of your choice at Ranger 3), or strongheart halfing, you can then get early entry to Prestige Paladin, picking up Devoted Tracker at 6th level at the same time as you get your paladin mount.

A Ranger can only cast Protection from Evil on Level 4, which means you managed to qualify ONE level earlier, and the Prestige Paladin now advances your Ranger spellcasting. So, you used obscure Eberron-specific and Dragon material to cast like a 15th-level Ranger on ECL 19 (Ranger 4/PP15). That must be the hardest try ever to totally suck.

edit: I think you forgot that you need Mounted Combat to qualify for PP. Since you need three other feats for your trick, you're one feat shy, even as a Human/Strongheart Halfling.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A Ranger can only cast Protection from Evil on Level 4, which means you managed to qualify ONE level earlier, and the Prestige Paladin now advances your Ranger spellcasting. So, you used obscure Eberron-specific and Dragon material to cast like a 15th-level Ranger on ECL 19 (Ranger 4/PP15). That must be the hardest try ever to totally suck.

edit: I think you forgot that you need Mounted Combat to qualify for PP. Since you need three other feats for your trick, you're one feat shy, even as a Human/Strongheart Halfling.

Ah, you're right, completely forgot about Mounted Combat. Though in a table with Dragon Mag, flaws are probably also accepted.

Regardless, for that build I'd honestly probably drop Prestige Pally after getting the mount, in favor of ubermounting via Halfling Outrider, Beastmaster, Aglarondan Griffon Rider, or and/or something else.