I'm so torn... to BB or not to BB with an arcane trickster

[nickl_2000]

So, I'm playing an AT who just got to level 3 in a party consisting of a sorcadin (eventually), Divination Wizard, Celestial Warlock (medium armored) and myself.

I've got 2 of my 3 cantrips picked out (prestidigitation and mage hand), I also have Minor Illusion and another 3rd party illusion cantrip through Magic Initiate at level 1.

So, here is my question. How much am I going to nerf myself not taking GFB or BB? It's a struggle between the optimizer in me where both are really, really good spells for an AT and the RP side where neither of those spells are really not within his character.


As for within character, both light and mending are highly appropriate for his backstory and fitting for him.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh. You'll be fine-- remember that you can use TWF if you're not using Booming Blade, so you'll do a little less damage but hit more consistently.

[Willie the Duck]

Rogues worked before SCAG, and work in AL play where the +1 book isn't SCAG. It clearly can be done. One thing to ask is: do you think you will be able to set up the rider effects (someone else standing next to your target, or making them move to follow you)? That is playstyle and group dependent, and governs about half the benefit of these spells. If not, you weren't really going to get that much benefit out of them anyways.

[nickl_2000]

Rogues worked before SCAG, and work in AL play where the +1 book isn't SCAG. It clearly can be done. One thing to ask is: do you think you will be able to set up the rider effects (someone else standing next to your target, or making them move to follow you)? That is playstyle and group dependent, and governs about half the benefit of these spells. If not, you weren't really going to get that much benefit out of them anyways.

The campaign will go to level 17 or so, so even without the rider on BB I will get bonus damage in Tier 2, 3, and 4.

[OldTrees1]

By not taking Booming Blade you lose roughly 2 dice of damage (~15 dice vs ~13 dice)*. In exchange you get another cantrip. Some cantrips are really nice.


It kinda boils down to if you like Expertise and Reliable Talent or not.
If yes, ditch Booming Blade unless you run out of utility cantrips you like.
If no, grab Booming Blade like you life depends on it and consider DPS multiclassing.




*
1d8+5+3d8+10d6 Booming Blade
2d6+5+0d8+10d6 Two Weapons
1d8+4+0d8+10d6 My Rogue that does more than enough damage

[Evaar]

You will be fine.

But is there a way to reflavor the spells such that they do fit your character? I almost always reflavor Booming Blade anyway because I don't even know what a "sheathe of booming energy" is. I've made it a glyph of the floor below the target that detonates if they step off of it, a whirlwind of spectral wasps or hummingbirds, and various other things.

But if it just doesn't fit, then you will be fine. Use an offhand weapon for insurance on your sneak attacks instead.

[Greywander]

As everyone else is saying, you'll be fine, rogues existed before SCAG. The main benefits of Booming Blade are forcing the target to stand still, and being able to maintain modest damage output if for some reason you can't get Sneak Attack. If you can get Sneak Attack consistently, then the extra damage from BB probably isn't worth worrying about, but it helps keep you useful when you can't get Sneak Attack. BB also pairs nicely with the Mobile feat: run up, BB, then move away without needing to Disengage (you can BA Dash to get close/far enough). The enemy has to decide whether to move and take damage or stand still and not attack you.

I wouldn't bother with GFB, unless you have some other bonus to fire. Fire is commonly resisted or immune, and GFB doesn't offer anything aside from extra damage. BB is valuable moreso because of its control aspect than its damage. When you use BB, the optimal outcome is for the target to stay still, with the extra damage being a consolation if they still move. Still, often an enemy will either have ranged attacks/spells or will already be in melee with another PC (which you want for Sneak Attack anyway), so BB's control aspect will only help occasionally.

What I'm curious about is that all three of your party members are also casters with Mending and Light on their spell list. In fact, the Celestial warlock gets Light for free. Did none of them pick up Mending? If not, it might be worth grabbing it yourself. You'll get another cantrip at 10th level, so you could pick up either BB or Mending, whichever you don't take now.

Oh, one last protip: You can grab BB via Spell Sniper. Probably not worth it, though, unless you somehow have whip proficiency. If you're still undecided, you could dip 1 level into another class to pick up some more cantrips. Cleric is always a solid dip, sorcerer gets you the most cantrips, and wizard uses the same casting stat. There's no such thing as having too many cantrips.


I don't even know what a "sheathe of booming energy" is.
At one point, I was looking at a Forge cleric build and wanted to pick up BB (since clerics don't get Extra Attack). I was going to flavor it as a ringing sound, like when a hammer strikes a metal object. If the target tries to move, the sound gets louder until it becomes painful, and quieter when they move back. If they try to push through the ringing, it blasts their ears so loudly it causes damage, but as long as they stay in the same spot, it's tolerable (if annoying).

[nickl_2000]

As everyone else is saying, you'll be fine, rogues existed before SCAG. The main benefits of Booming Blade are forcing the target to stand still, and being able to maintain modest damage output if for some reason you can't get Sneak Attack. If you can get Sneak Attack consistently, then the extra damage from BB probably isn't worth worrying about, but it helps keep you useful when you can't get Sneak Attack. BB also pairs nicely with the Mobile feat: run up, BB, then move away without needing to Disengage (you can BA Dash to get close/far enough). The enemy has to decide whether to move and take damage or stand still and not attack you.

I wouldn't bother with GFB, unless you have some other bonus to fire. Fire is commonly resisted or immune, and GFB doesn't offer anything aside from extra damage. BB is valuable moreso because of its control aspect than its damage. When you use BB, the optimal outcome is for the target to stay still, with the extra damage being a consolation if they still move. Still, often an enemy will either have ranged attacks/spells or will already be in melee with another PC (which you want for Sneak Attack anyway), so BB's control aspect will only help occasionally.

What I'm curious about is that all three of your party members are also casters with Mending and Light on their spell list. In fact, the Celestial warlock gets Light for free. Did none of them pick up Mending? If not, it might be worth grabbing it yourself. You'll get another cantrip at 10th level, so you could pick up either BB or Mending, whichever you don't take now.

Oh, one last protip: You can grab BB via Spell Sniper. Probably not worth it, though, unless you somehow have whip proficiency. If you're still undecided, you could dip 1 level into another class to pick up some more cantrips. Cleric is always a solid dip, sorcerer gets you the most cantrips, and wizard uses the same casting stat. There's no such thing as having too many cantrips.


At one point, I was looking at a Forge cleric build and wanted to pick up BB (since clerics don't get Extra Attack). I was going to flavor it as a ringing sound, like when a hammer strikes a metal object. If the target tries to move, the sound gets louder until it becomes painful, and quieter when they move back. If they try to push through the ringing, it blasts their ears so loudly it causes damage, but as long as they stay in the same spot, it's tolerable (if annoying).

The celestial warlock does have light, but we also have 3 humans in the party. So, having another casting available could be handy. Three sorcadin is running paladin class levels first, so there are no sorcerer cantrips yet.

As for mending, no one has that yet. Which beyond matching the character rpwise is worthwhile getting. Oddly enough no one has prestidigitation yet either, but I adore that spell so I'm taking it.

[Greywander]

It kind of sounds like you really want Mending, but feel like you need BB to be optimized. In that case, I'd grab Mending now and BB later (BB will be stronger when you're higher level, whereas Mending is just as useful at any level). If you want to get Light as well, or just really can't decide between BB and Mending, use your next level to dip into cleric, sorcerer, or wizard.

[nickl_2000]

It kind of sounds like you really want Mending, but feel like you need BB to be optimized. In that case, I'd grab Mending now and BB later (BB will be stronger when you're higher level, whereas Mending is just as useful at any level). If you want to get Light as well, or just really can't decide between BB and Mending, use your next level to dip into cleric, sorcerer, or wizard.

A 2 level war wizard dip is certainly possible in the characters future. So, seems like a good plan. I don't have the stats for any dips other than wizard or artificer and wizard is the only one fitting who he is and his character so far.

You have it pretty well pegged there for an assessment.

[HappyDaze]

I ban all things SCAG at my table, and AT Rogues are still plenty effective.

[Willie the Duck]

The campaign will go to level 17 or so, so even without the rider on BB I will get bonus damage in Tier 2, 3, and 4.

Yes, and I am saying that 1d8 per tier isn't that big of a deal compared to twf and increasing your likelihood of connecting at least once (and thus not wasting 1d6/2 levels SA damage). If it is 2d8 per tier and it changes enemy behavior, well then that's a bigger deal.

[Mikal]

So, I'm playing an AT who just got to level 3 in a party consisting of a sorcadin (eventually), Divination Wizard, Celestial Warlock (medium armored) and myself.

I've got 2 of my 3 cantrips picked out (prestidigitation and mage hand), I also have Minor Illusion and another 3rd party illusion cantrip through Magic Initiate at level 1.

So, here is my question. How much am I going to nerf myself not taking GFB or BB? It's a struggle between the optimizer in me where both are really, really good spells for an AT and the RP side where neither of those spells are really not within his character.


As for within character, both light and mending are highly appropriate for his backstory and fitting for him.

Well not just from a damage standpoint but also tactical standpoint you’d be nerfing yourself moderately.

You’ll still be viable of course, just not as useful. It’s not the end of the world. And honestly if you really feel the pinch you can always take a feat or multiclass for a level to pick it up and expand your spellcasting in general.

[Yakk]

With a flametongue rapier, 4d8+12d6+5 is 65 damage (+18 if they move), and without BB is 13.5 damage less, or 51.5.

Suppose reliable advantage and 18 AC foe. +11 to hit means 91% hit 10% crit rate; basically the above numbers are DPR.

So if you move in, booming blade, disengage and get the enemy to follow you, a level 20 rogue does 60% more damage with this than one without.

Of course, fighter (champion) 5/rogue 15 elf who dual wields flaming shortswords, has reliable advantage somehow, and crit fishes... 97% hit rate, 9d6+15 weapon damage. 27.1% crit rate, so 53.6 or so.

Sneak attack crits .271+(1-.271)*.271+(1-(1-.271)*.271)*.271=68% and hits 98%+ of the time for 8d6. or 28*1.66=46.5 damage.

Total just over 100 dpr.

So no, booming blade isn't the only path to high DPR.

Champion 5/AT 15 elven accuracy shadow blade (3rd) is 6d8+10 at 97% hit 27% crit or 43. .27+(1-.27)*.27 crit on sneak attack (46%) for 7d6*(.98+.46) for 35-ish, sum to 78-ish dpr. And comes with built-in advantage in dim light or darkness.

[Stangler]

Crossbow Expert is very good for an AT if you are worried about damage output. The most important feature is having two chances to get your sneak attack damage.

Booming blade isn't all it is cracked up to be because you can only attack once because you don't get an offhand attack. You are going to miss your target and your target won't move as much as you may think. At lower levels you are simply better off going with dual wielding IMO. A big BB round can be a lot of fun but you are just as likely to see that big damage be overkill.

That said, I find melee more fun than ranged and booming blade can be fun. I would make the decision based on what you find fun.

I am currently planning an AT/Artillerist multi-class that is built around booming blade and the artillerist cannons. Not going to be optimal but hopefully fun.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm playing an AT and struggled to select cantrips. I decided not to get BB because it's "optimised" and I didn't think I needed it. I did get GFB because rogues can struggle with multiple enemies and so the second target damage seemed like a fun rider. BB seems slightly more complicated too since it has an off-turn effect.

[Greywander]

I'm playing an AT and struggled to select cantrips. I decided not to get BB because it's "optimised" and I didn't think I needed it. I did get GFB because rogues can struggle with multiple enemies and so the second target damage seemed like a fun rider. BB seems slightly more complicated too since it has an off-turn effect.
See, to me, I prefer BB to GFB because the control aspect of BB, although it might not come up often, should be much more helpful than a little extra damage when it does come up. That, and fire damage is commonly resisted, while thunder is not. GFB is also not compatible with Warcaster, which might not matter to a rogue, though OAs are a good way to get off-turn Sneak Attacks. YMMV, the fact that we can have different opinions is a good sign that these are somewhat balanced. Not like, say, Truestrike, where everyone agrees it's a bad pick.

As others have mentioned, using BB does preclude fighting from range. Crossbow Expert, like TWF, does use your BA (though you can choose not to make the second attack if the first attack hits; most of your damage comes from Sneak Attack, so that BA might be better used for something other than base weapon damage), while BB does not. In all things, there are pros and cons. BB is great for a melee build, but TWF does give you that second chance to hit, and ranged builds have more mobility since they can attack from further away.

[langal]

If you take BB, it does not mean you have to use it every round. Sometimes you want the extra chance at sneak attack. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you need to be really quiet. I have a char with both BB and GFB. I know it's not "optimized" but it's fun. Still use both cantrips a lot more than others

[Mr Adventurer]

See, to me, I prefer BB to GFB because the control aspect of BB, although it might not come up often, should be much more helpful than a little extra damage when it does come up. That, and fire damage is commonly resisted, while thunder is not. GFB is also not compatible with Warcaster, which might not matter to a rogue, though OAs are a good way to get off-turn Sneak Attacks. YMMV, the fact that we can have different opinions is a good sign that these are somewhat balanced. Not like, say, Truestrike, where everyone agrees it's a bad pick.


Well yes, I noted it's the less optimised pick :).

Like you say, I'm pleased that 5e is forgiving enough that I can do that.