Fixing Vow of Poverty

[liquidformat]

So I have long heard that in situations Vow of Poverty isn't worth it as it doesn't equate WBL.

So what are some things that could be done in order to fix this feat?

[Tvtyrant]

Have it give them Wildshape and the ability to cast Protection from X several times a day on top of the normal benefits. That would make it only somewhat worse than magic items. Magic items are tier 1, so I suppose full Wizard casting might do it.

Put another way: If I made a class called the Haggler who got basic skills, HD and BaB as well as a Purse of Phantom Money that could be used instead of GP for goods and services each level, starting with 500GP at level 1 and ending at 125K at level 20, it would be a viable class. VoP is a feat that, in the case of tier 4 and below classes, takes away more then their class features gives them.

[NigelWalmsley]

The problem is not so much that it doesn't equal WBL as that it gives you a WBL that is spent inefficiently (and that the restrictions make certain classes nonfunctional). Very few classes want their bonuses distributed the way VoP distributes them, and most people will optimize and economize on purchases because WBL is too low at mid levels. So if you just cashed everything out and put it in a big pile it is (IIRC) at or above the standard, but in practice it doesn't do what actual characters want.

So you'd have to look at how you expect people to spend their WBL, then give them something like that. Of course, different characters will spend their wealth in different ways (e.g. a Fighter is likely to spend more on magic weapons than a Sorcerer), so you'll likely need to provide some flexibility, at which point you start running into questions about whether you really want to bother with VoP.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's probably easiest to just use WBL-but-different. Characters with Vow of Poverty must donate their WBL, and in return, they get a budget to be spent on spiritual equivalents to magic items (and spell components/spellbooks/holy symbols etc.), equal to one-third of standard WBL, or something. Then you grant the equivalent of about two-thirds WBL on ability boosts, saves, AC etc. so all that money can go towards actual abilities instead of stats.

Backstory idea: The enchantments persist after death. This is how you get relics and stuff like the Bones of Li-Peng.

[reddir]

You could allow Sculpt Self, a feat from Dragon Magazine. It enables spending xp to gain spell affects inherent to the person.

With this, you pay for magic effects as if you are buying slotless items with those effects. (xp cost = gp cost / 5).

The character would lag behind others by a level or two, but would have the option to make use of necessary magic buffs/effects. (you could also grant some allowance toward cost based on how much the character donated in charity, as ExLibrisMortis said above)

[Bohandas]

First and foremost remove the feat's prerequisites

[Gavinfoxx]

There are a few good fixes bouncing around the forums, I'm sure someone will link you to a favored one at some point, if they don't I'll find one eventually.

[Morphic tide]

I think that the horribleness of Vow of Poverty is somewhat more an emergent property of optimization's apparent needs and the shallow nature of the [Exalted] feat pool, rather than the feat actually failing what it sets out to do on a basic level. It seems to actually considerably outscale WBL in terms of the bonuses you get ahold of, but it doesn't give a substitution for Special Quality damage bonuses or mobility items, and the healing is effectively nonexistent, and the focus is pretty off so it ends up with annoying gaps.

The cause of this issue is most likely that Vow of Poverty is supposed to be generic. All the spellcasters can self-source flight and have no need for those damage qualities the Martials are missing out on and Clerics and Paladins are already well off enough for self-healing, so Vow of Poverty "wasting" a large chunk of its budget on that would be "bad design" for over-exaggerating what some classes get. Consequently, I think the solution is to shift the bonus scaling around to line it up better, and handle the class-specific vulnerabilities in mobility, damage output, and healing as [Exalted] feats.

My major concern is that if Vow of Poverty makes those gaps mandatory to fill, it will result in easy-bake nigh-immortals with Paladin or Monk, especially "fixed" versions that bring their own answers to the exact same problems.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Giving VoP a few different tracks for what bonuses you get (one for divine casters, one for arcane/psionic, one for skillmonkeys, one for martials) or even just a more flexible choose-your-own-benefits path would help.

A much larger number of bonus feats that can be used on whatever you qualify for (so long as they're not [Evil]) would be a huge help (as this would vastly improve the quantity AND quality of what VoP gives you), as well. Think about what could be done with Martial Study, Martial Stance, and soulmeld feats, for instance.

Inherent shapeshifting to give things like immunities, natural attacks, and movement modes would give you a lot more flexibility and power.

The ability to sacrifice gp (by donating it to others in need) in exchange for personal power directly would make it far less likely that your party will complain that you're giving away their WBL for nothing. Perhaps divinely-gifted tattoos that give you non-Evil at-will SLAs of your choice? And make the exchange rate pretty reasonable, so you're not spending 100,000 gp for an at-will level 2 spell. You could also enhance your own body slots as magic items directly. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432)

Immunities and resistances are also required to keep up with WBL.

And giving a looser set of restrictions is an absolute must. Currently, a RAW-focused DM would be within his rights to enforce the restrictions as RAW insists, which are constricting to the point of stupidity. Spending time in a house breaks the vow, as does opening a door, or walking on carpet, or reading a book, or looking at a painting or a statue, or whatever. The restrictions need to be redefined significantly to make VoP even vaguely functional. Using items on others' behalf (such as giving other people healing potions, or using a healing wand on someone else) needs to be considered, as well. Currently, if you have VoP and all your spells have been used for the day, and your party member is laying there dying at -9 hp, you would have to choose between saving his life using the potions on his belt and losing your vow. VoP actually encourages extreme selfishness, which is just d-u-m-b dumb. Also, you need either the ability to use items that are required for class abilities or the ability to substitute something else for them. You need to be able to use spellbooks (or equivalent), a spell component pouch (or equivalent), and a divine holy symbol (or equivalent). Being able to carry magic items solely for others' benefit (such as healing potions for emergencies) should not count against the vow. I'm sure there are others, as well. A crystal master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d) needs to be able to implant crystals into his own body, and a character focusing on grafts would need to be able to use those grafts. Currently, it's entirely possible for a VoP character to have grafts when he takes the feat, but if he ever uses his own (grafted) body, he immediately loses the vow. Honestly, VoP needs a lot of work on this front. It's currently a really disgusting mess.

WBL is so hugely empowering and versatile that VoP has huge shoes to fill.

[Toliudar]

I quite like the idea of VoP empowering you to use donated funds to 'buy' the equivalent effects of magic items, perhaps still built into specific slots so that the benefits might, in some form, survive the passing of the host in the manner of relics. Perhaps the advantages of this (not having to actually source the magic items, not being able to use any actual items you find along the way) would counterbalance the obvious advantages (the items can't be lost, stolen or destroyed, for example).

[Batcathat]

Perhaps the advantages of this (not having to actually source the magic items, not being able to use any actual items you find along the way) would counterbalance the obvious advantages (the items can't be lost, stolen or destroyed, for example).

Those advantages would mean very little at a lot of tables though, since many GMs are hesitant to destroy or otherwise permanently remove the players' magic items. (Personally I'm on the fence in that matter, I don't like items being "safe" for meta-reasons like that but at the same time I could see a lot of players getting upset over losing their precious items).

[lord_khaine]

My major concern is that if Vow of Poverty makes those gaps mandatory to fill, it will result in easy-bake nigh-immortals with Paladin or Monk, especially "fixed" versions that bring their own answers to the exact same problems.

I think Morphic tide makes some thoughful points here.
And i would add that Vow of Poverty does not -need- to be as strong or as effective as having magic items.
If it were you were not giving anything up.

Also as such i think the bonuses it does give are quite decent.
Though i could see the reason behind making it regular bonus feats instead of exalted feats.

[Telonius]

Personally, I'd want a rework of what "poverty" is supposed to be. I don't think it should be a "material possessions are bad" thing. It should be a, "don't be so attached to material possessions" thing. Poverty should mean that a character doesn't claim anything as their own, not that using magic as a tool is inherently bad.

I'd allow a VoP character to use any equipment issued by their patron or religious order. That equipment belongs to the patron or religious order, and can't be sold or transferred to somebody else; it must be returned (or replaced/repaired, if it gets broken). It belongs to the community, not the individual. Equipment issued by the patron or religious order would be under the discretion of the DM, and should not exceed NPC wealth by level.

The character should be able to use a magic item in an emergency to heal someone, but should always pay for that out of their own share of the treasure.

[Gavinfoxx]

So here's a question: what are your picks for the top 3 VoP fix threads on the forums, and why is each fix good?

[King of Nowhere]

It's probably easiest to just use WBL-but-different. Characters with Vow of Poverty must donate their WBL, and in return, they get a budget to be spent on spiritual equivalents to magic items (and spell components/spellbooks/holy symbols etc.), equal to one-third of standard WBL, or something. Then you grant the equivalent of about two-thirds WBL on ability boosts, saves, AC etc. so all that money can go towards actual abilities instead of stats.

Backstory idea: The enchantments persist after death. This is how you get relics and stuff like the Bones of Li-Peng.

that's a good idea. letting the player customize is generally good.

however, as you worded it, it's too powerful. now you have the same benefits of people buying equipment, but you cannot be dispelled, sundered, or similar. you can take a disjunction to the face without worrying about buying back half your items. you lose nothing from being disarmed.

this is an actual advantage of vop that is mostly overlooked: all your boosts cannot be dispelled. i don't know how often that comes about in your games. me, last combat i had, the first round we got hit by a good dozen greater dispel magic. when i was a dm, the main boss team was made of four 20th level casters, and all of them would open the fight with disjunction. two of them would also follow through with quickened disjunction. not having to worry about being dispelled/disjoined is pretty important.

so, i think vop should still give lesser boosts than regular items, to reflect this benefit.
say that you have half your wbl to spend in equivalent sacred bonuses.


Personally, I'd want a rework of what "poverty" is supposed to be. I don't think it should be a "material possessions are bad" thing. It should be a, "don't be so attached to material possessions" thing. Poverty should mean that a character doesn't claim anything as their own, not that using magic as a tool is inherently bad.

I'd allow a VoP character to use any equipment issued by their patron or religious order. That equipment belongs to the patron or religious order, and can't be sold or transferred to somebody else; it must be returned (or replaced/repaired, if it gets broken). It belongs to the community, not the individual. Equipment issued by the patron or religious order would be under the discretion of the DM, and should not exceed NPC wealth by level.

The character should be able to use a magic item in an emergency to heal someone, but should always pay for that out of their own share of the treasure.

i like that too. make a more sane formulation. it also allows the DM to give or take boosts to the character if the guy is becoming too weak or too strong, which is also a good thing.

[Psyren]

So I have long heard that in situations Vow of Poverty isn't worth it as it doesn't equate WBL.

So what are some things that could be done in order to fix this feat?

I'd say replacing its benefits with Pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/) (the accelerated version) gets you most of the way there. This gets you the poverty buffs much faster than VoP gives them. I would consider also letting you trade in some of your enhancement bonus with your arms and armor for equivalent special abilities, especially handy once you get the +5 Legendary gifts.

As for the bonus feats - in addition to exalted feats, I've heard that letting the player take Incarnum feats (fluffed as their soul expanding in power due to their ascetism) as bonus feats helps a lot from a utility perspective.

[Tvtyrant]

Letting a character gestalt in return for taking VoP level 1 seems pretty reasonable, maybe take an additional feat at one of the later levels.

As in you lose items, gain a gestalt instead of VoP bonuses.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So here's a question: what are your pics for the top 3 VoP fix threads on the forums, and why is each fix good?What pictures are you talking about?

[Gavinfoxx]

What pictures are you talking about?

Typo fixed. Mobile posting is hard.

[Twurps]

You need to define what 'fix' means in this context. If you want it competing with the schrodingers wizard this forum is oft so fond of, There's probably no fixing it.

Vow of poverty is a specific thing (whatever you 'fix' that thing into being). The opportunity costs, (ie: what you give up) are much less clear. I mean: you give up wealth(by level) we all get that. But what WBL gets you is a different story altogether. so you're kinda giving up schrodingers WBL. and as long as we don't know what you specifically give up, we can't balance VOP against it.

let me clarify:
In theory you can get anything and everything for your wealth through magic items. In practice, you can get anything for it, but not everyting. (meaning: you have to spend your gold at some point in time. If that point in time was lvl6, than your magic item selection might fit perfectly at level6 and outshine VOP, but by lvl10 certain stuff has made contact with an air-circulating instrument. The world is a different place, and so your needs change as well. lvl10 WBL could easily get you out of this mess, if only you hadn't blown a good chuck of it 4 levels ago.

So I guess what I'm saying is: VOP is schrodingers wizard in reverse. And just like the power of that wizard is much greater in theorycrafting than it is in any actual game (Even the most OP ones) So will the loss of WBL due to this feat always be perceived as greater than it would be in an actual game.

With that in mind, trying to fix VOP with a static increase is going to be nigh impossible. It doesn't solve the schrodingers issue, and it depends very much on the OP-fu of your table. As it that OP-fu that determines the opportunity costs. The solution should be to increase it's flexibility. and quite a few good suggestions to that effect were already given. More exalted feats would certainly help. I see where the 'wild shape' suggestion is coming from as wildshaping is very versatile and wildshape and magic items work poorly together anyway. I'm having trouble fluffing a wildshaping paladin for some reason, but that might just be lack of my own imagination.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a few examples of what I mean by fixes on this forum

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?140428-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?335794-Vow-of-Poverty-Remix

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?289593-My-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?198956-Simple-Fix-for-the-Vow-of-Poverty

See? Fixes.

[Silly Name]

The way I see it, and I think most do, is that VoP loses you flexibility and fixes you into having certain bonuses over others. For example, you can't get yourself a Flaming sword to deal with the troll, because VoP has decided you get enhancement bonuses and ways to overcome damage resistances but no other weapon properties.

Same goes with armor and a myriad of potential magic items you may have bought instead of getting yourself, I don't know, a Ring of Sustenance. I find myself agreeing with Twurps on a lot of points. Most characters and parties will get themselves magic items depending on what they know/think they'll be fighting, while VoP takes away that choice.

One of the major complaints I've heard about it is that it forever locks martials that take this feat from getting a way to fly on their own - to which my usual response is, at what actual table have you played where the party's casters are unwilling to cast Fly or similar spells on their party members? Yes, there is a definite tactical advantage on being able to do that on your own (saving a spell slot, being able to fly even if the caster is incapacitated/too far away), but the assumption most tables play around is that no character can do everything on their own.

But it is a valid complaint, I think. Most high-level foes fly, and you need a way to close the gap when you're not allowed wands and magic arrows.

The shapechange idea is cool, but as Twurp pointed out it might not grock very well with all the character concepts that might want Vow of Poverty (and casters already get that, theoretically, so for them it feels a bit moot).

My one suggestion would be to give the ascetic the possibility to trade any one of VoP's benefits for the ability to pick a spell they can cast as a Su ability... three times per day? That, or depending on the spell. Probably better if it's spell-dependant.

This would function by writing down a list of spells they get to choose (probably drawn mostly from the Cleric list), and being unable to choose higher-level spells until they're at the "appropriate" level (i.e., when a Cleric would unlock that spell level). This decision may only be made at level up, and change the benefit they'd be getting at that level, only once per level. In case of incremental benefits, like the AC bonus or Exalted strike, they only lose that specific increment (so, say, if I forgo Resistance +1 at level 7 to pick Air Walk, I still get a +1 Resistance bonus to my saving throws at level 13).

Might or might not want to decide which benefits can be traded in - perhaps it's better if only incremental benefits can be traded in, while unique things like bonus exalted feats are locked in place. IDK.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

More [Exalted] feats would help somewhat, especially if those feats gave more flexibility. Allowing Ancestral Relic with the caveat that the resulting item is ONLY usable by the VoP character and doesn't have any value for anyone else (aside from just being the basic, nonmagical version of the item) would be helpful. It has no actual value for anyone but the VoP character, and only has magical properties when used by him. Ergo, no gp cost, since it can't be sold. Then you could put all the magic enhancements for that item into things like immunities, flight, and the like.

An [Exalted] feat that grants at-will alter self, with others that boost that into polymorph etc, which are only available at higher levels.

Etc.

[Telonius]

You need to define what 'fix' means in this context. If you want it competing with the schrodingers wizard this forum is oft so fond of, There's probably no fixing it.

Vow of poverty is a specific thing (whatever you 'fix' that thing into being). The opportunity costs, (ie: what you give up) are much less clear. I mean: you give up wealth(by level) we all get that. But what WBL gets you is a different story altogether. so you're kinda giving up schrodingers WBL. and as long as we don't know what you specifically give up, we can't balance VOP against it.

let me clarify:
In theory you can get anything and everything for your wealth through magic items. In practice, you can get anything for it, but not everyting. (meaning: you have to spend your gold at some point in time. If that point in time was lvl6, than your magic item selection might fit perfectly at level6 and outshine VOP, but by lvl10 certain stuff has made contact with an air-circulating instrument. The world is a different place, and so your needs change as well. lvl10 WBL could easily get you out of this mess, if only you hadn't blown a good chuck of it 4 levels ago.

So I guess what I'm saying is: VOP is schrodingers wizard in reverse. And just like the power of that wizard is much greater in theorycrafting than it is in any actual game (Even the most OP ones) So will the loss of WBL due to this feat always be perceived as greater than it would be in an actual game.

With that in mind, trying to fix VOP with a static increase is going to be nigh impossible. It doesn't solve the schrodingers issue, and it depends very much on the OP-fu of your table. As it that OP-fu that determines the opportunity costs. The solution should be to increase it's flexibility. and quite a few good suggestions to that effect were already given. More exalted feats would certainly help. I see where the 'wild shape' suggestion is coming from as wildshaping is very versatile and wildshape and magic items work poorly together anyway. I'm having trouble fluffing a wildshaping paladin for some reason, but that might just be lack of my own imagination.

I consider VoP to be an attempt at making an otherwise unplayable concept (an Exalted, do-gooding wealth-less character) into something that's at least kind of playable. If the feat comes close to doing that, it needs a lot less tinkering - just fiddling with the balance and making sure things are a relatively even trade. (Even that has its issues, as you mention). But I think that there are at least two big gameplay issues where that fails. Those two things need to be fixed, or the feat fails in what it's trying to do.

First, the feat applies to classes extremely unevenly. For example, a Wizard taking this would be seriously crippled without a spellbook. (There are hoops you can jump through to get around that, but that locks you into a very small number of builds). A Druid cares a lot less. A Cleric will be casting lots of Summon Holy Symbol. This isn't a problem that's exclusive to VoP - when's the last time you saw a Wizard with Power Attack? And it's an undeniable fact that some classes are much more gear-dependent than others. But the general character concept (Exalted, do-gooding, wealth-less character) could apply to any class. The feat ought to support that, and as-written, it doesn't.

Second, it's terribly worded. Following the literal letter of the vow results in things that are stupid (using a doorknob loses the feat) or decidedly non-Good (saving a life or preventing suffering via magic items in an emergency is forbidden). Other examples have been mentioned upthread.

I think those are the two big things that need to be fixed for VoP to even have a chance of working.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Second, it's terribly worded. Following the literal letter of the vow results in things that are stupid (using a doorknob loses the feat) or decidedly non-Good (saving a life or preventing suffering via magic items in an emergency is forbidden). Other examples have been mentioned upthread.You know you have a problem when setting off a trap (ie, using a trap in the manner it was intended to be used) can permanently ruin your entire character concept.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry
More [Exalted] feats would help somewhat, especially if those feats gave more flexibility.

Whenever this comes up, I like to mention Mephibosheth’s homebrew Exalted feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?164659-3-5-Exalted-Feats-for-Everyone!&p=9178638).

As he says up front, it’s not a VoP fix, but his feats do offer a little more variety.

[Silly Name]

Second, it's terribly worded. Following the literal letter of the vow results in things that are stupid (using a doorknob loses the feat) or decidedly non-Good (saving a life or preventing suffering via magic items in an emergency is forbidden). Other examples have been mentioned upthread.

The doorknob problem is easily solved by a trick called "playing with mentally sane people". Same with the supposed trick of placing a magic item on a character with the feat to make them lose the benefits - if the item is placed on their person against their will, and they remove it as soon as physically possible, no DM worth playing with would make it count against the feat's restrictions.

I know RAW is almighty, especially in terms of TO, but I feel like we can run on the assumption that in actual play certain literal-but-nonsensical readings of the rules aren't taken in consideration.

I agree the restriction on "borrowing" magic items could receive an exception on using healing spells on other people, though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The doorknob problem is easily solved by a trick called "playing with mentally sane people". Same with the supposed trick of placing a magic item on a character with the feat to make them lose the benefits - if the item is placed on their person against their will, and they remove it as soon as physically possible, no DM worth playing with would make it count against the feat's restrictions.

I know RAW is almighty, especially in terms of TO, but I feel like we can run on the assumption that in actual play certain literal-but-nonsensical readings of the rules aren't taken in consideration.You do realize that just because you can houserule it doesn't mean it's not broken?

That's widely known as the Oberroni Fallacy.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Silly Name
…I feel like we can run on the assumption that in actual play certain literal-but-nonsensical readings of the rules aren't taken in consideration.

This.


Originally Posted by Silly Name
I agree the restriction on "borrowing" magic items could receive an exception on using healing spells on other people, though.

An [Exalted] feat granting some sort of lay-on-hands ability might be one way to solve that issue.

[Silly Name]

You do realize that just because you can houserule it doesn't mean it's not broken?

That's widely known as the Oberroni Fallacy.

Yes, I realise it's technically an houserule if we're being extremely pedant because any manipulation of an object can be described as "using" it, and therefore forbidden by the letter of the text.

My point is that at any table were you're allowed to pick this feat, if the DM actually tries to pull such ridiculous shenanigans on you, then the maxim of "no game is better than a ****ty game" applies. As I noted, I recognise that most people here when theorycrafting abide by RAW-or-die and all that, but I see zero value on criticising minute details of the text that would never come up in actual play versus what actually makes the feat a bad decision.

It's like saying that Arcane Trickster is bad prestige class because a literal reading of the text limits it to one Arcane Legerdemain skill set check per day even when it gets multiple uses, rather than because there are better ways to build a Rogue/Caster gish.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
Here's a few examples of what I mean by fixes on this forum....

Some of these are pretty dense to dig through, but Talya’s list of additional [Exalted] feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?198956-Simple-Fix-for-the-Vow-of-Poverty) is worth a look.

.

[Psyren]

I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

With that said, a Vow of Poverty character should be playable - without warping/nerfing every encounter to accommodate them. Specifically I think the Vow should ensure at least the following:


All of the Big Six must be accounted for - resistance to saves, the four boosts to armor (armor/enhancement, natural, deflection, and possibly shield), enhancement to weapons, and physical+mental enhancements.
Some utility - particularly baseline things like a way to fly and traverse water since you can't get those from items.
Ways to deal with hard-hitting debuffs (whether immunity, recovery, or just resistance.) These include debilitating/long-lasting things like negative levels, poison, and disease.
Some ability to choose certain benefits day-to-day so that not every VoP member of {class} feels identical.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

Agreed completely.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Some utility - particularly baseline things like a way to fly and traverse water since you can't get those from items.

On this point, there’s an oracle revelation for the Heavens mystery which allows you to walk several inches above surfaces, with liquid water explicitly included. It also gives fly at 10th level. Adapting this to VoP could address these particular issues.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."Um... You're burning two feats to be less than a normal character.

I don't think the math adds up on that even a little bit.

[Psyren]

Um... You're burning two feats to be less than a normal character.

I don't think the math adds up on that even a little bit.

If you wanted to be a "normal character" you shouldn't be taking a sacred vow to begin with. The whole point of the vows is for the game to be a little harder than "normal."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you wanted to be a "normal character" you shouldn't be taking a sacred vow to begin with. The whole point of the vows is for the game to be a little harder than "normal."Then make VoP a flaw, not a feat. Especially a feat with another useless feat as a prerequisite.

[Tvtyrant]

If you wanted to be a "normal character" you shouldn't be taking a sacred vow to begin with. The whole point of the vows is for the game to be a little harder than "normal."

I thought it was to enable you to play without being a magical christmas tree. If I expend two of my feats to accomplish something I would prefer it not also cripple my other resources, and as I said earlier WBL is equal to a low tier class. If I play a VoP Monk I have spent two feats to remove the majority of my playable abilities.

[NigelWalmsley]

I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

The point of it is to not have material possessions. There's this pernicious notion among some people that Vow of Poverty is "supposed" to make you worse. It's not, that's not the point. The point is to let you fulfill the fantasy of being an ascetic. The fact that, in the real world, ascetics are less effective in combat (or whatever other field of endeavor) is besides the point, because in the real world magic isn't a good way of achieving your goals either.

[Zanos]

I thought it was to enable you to play without being a magical christmas tree. If I expend two of my feats to accomplish something I would prefer it not also cripple my other resources, and as I said earlier WBL is equal to a low tier class. If I play a VoP Monk I have spent two feats to remove the majority of my playable abilities.
No, VoP enables a very specific character archetype, which explicitly involves being exalted and frequently donating to charity. If it was a general feat to allow you to function without gear, it wouldn't be hard locked into archetypes that are super, super good.

[Psyren]

Then make VoP a flaw, not a feat. Especially a feat with another useless feat as a prerequisite.

For the record, I would remove the Sacred Vow prerequisite as it doesn't add anything meaningful to the concept of taking a vow.


I thought it was to enable you to play without being a magical christmas tree.

No, that's what an alternate wealth system like ABP or Grod's is for. You don't need a vow or alignment restriction to do that.


No, VoP enables a very specific character archetype, which explicitly involves being exalted and frequently donating to charity. If it was a general feat to allow you to function without gear, it wouldn't be hard locked into archetypes that are super, super good.

This.

[NigelWalmsley]

No, VoP enables a very specific character archetype, which explicitly involves being exalted and frequently donating to charity. If it was a general feat to allow you to function without gear, it wouldn't be hard locked into archetypes that are super, super good.

Yes, but no part of that archetype is "and also your character is mechanically worse". The point is to allow you to do that while still being effective. It's like saying that it's okay that the Monk sucks, because fighting unarmed actually is less effective. That's not the point. It's a fantasy game, no one's fantasy is "being bad".

[Psyren]

Yes, but no part of that archetype is "and also your character is mechanically worse". The point is to allow you to do that while still being effective. It's like saying that it's okay that the Monk sucks, because fighting unarmed actually is less effective. That's not the point. It's a fantasy game, no one's fantasy is "being bad".

"Still effective" != "As effective as a character with wealth."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Still effective" != "As effective as a character with wealth.""And spend two whole feats to do it."

[Psyren]

"And spend two whole feats to do it."


For the record, I would remove the Sacred Vow prerequisite as it doesn't add anything meaningful to the concept of taking a vow.

10 characters

[Bohandas]

I just had a thought. Why not change it from a feat, to a trait (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm). It already works more like a trait anyway

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I just had a thought. Why not change it from a feat, to a trait (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm). It already works more like a trait anywayThat's traitorous talk, that is.

[NigelWalmsley]

"Still effective" != "As effective as a character with wealth."

That's not an argument for your position. "They can only suck a little bit" is not a reason the option needs to suck. There's no reason this particular option needs to suck. The Monk does something we'd expect to make you less effective (fighting unarmed), and no one thinks the Monk is supposed to suck. The Paladin follows a code of honor that demands personal sacrifice, and no one thinks the Paladin is supposed to suck. There's simply no defensible reason for Vow of Poverty to make your character worse instead of just different. There's no other character concept we punish people for having.

[Malanorea]

Drolyt's fix is my favorite. I've had it bookmarked for years, and I often ask for it when I play unarmed/natural attack characters.

[Morphic tide]

To actually somewhat substantiate my claim on Vow of Poverty exceeding WBL for overall bonuses provided, at level 20 you have the +8 ability score bonus which would be 64,000 GP by the DMG guidelines that just give the pattern of the existing items, then +6 is 36,000 GP, +4 is 16,000 GP, and +2 is 2,000 GP. So far, 118,000 GP, little over 1/7th WBL. Then there's the +5 weapon at 50,000 GP, the +10 Armor bonus is most directly compared to a theoretical raw +6 Mithral Chain Shirt which would be 37,100 GP, with these two bringing the total to 205,100 GP.

The +3 Deflection is 18,000 GP while the +2 Natural Armor is 8,000 GP, and the 15 Energy Resistance is a bit annoying because it stops at 15 while the armor scales in increments of 10, but even at 10 it's 90,000 GP because it's five types, and the +3 Resistance is 9,000 GP, while DR/Evil only shows up at 5 for 76,000 GP on the Mantle of Faith. Now the total for rounding down on awkward bonuses is at 436,100 GP, nearing half of total WBL. True Seeing's nearest in the SRD is the Gem of Seeing at 75,000 GP, Sustenance can be mimicked with the 4,000 GP Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and Greater Sustenance is most directly compared to the 18,000 GP Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, bringing the total to 503,100 GP.

Finally, a continuous item of Freedom of Movement is 84,000 GP, the Ring of Regeneration is 90,000 GP, and the weirdly specific lie enabling doesn't really have a counterpart I can price, giving a total significantly-lowballed GP value of 677,100 GP against the 760,000 GP of ECL 20 WBL, meaning the 10 Exalted feats and what I rounded down need to provide the value of 82,900 GP to break even, which is rather likely given the DR/Evil. If we make all those things slotless because of some odd-ball spells, Incarnum, and other such things, then VoP is rather obviously an absurd premium. And at level 19, WBL comes down to 580,000 while of what I've enumerated prices for, VoP only loses 18,000 GP from ticking down to +4 on the weapon bonus (as I "rounded down" the ER/15 to the regular X Resistance qualities), meaning it's 79,100 GP ahead in terms of raw value, before the now-9 bonus feats and staggering cost of DR/Evil.

So again, the issue is that they're the wrong bonuses, not that you get seriously less value of them.

---

I very much think Vow of Poverty itself ought to remain very basic in its offerings. For having the bonus feats cover the more exotic properties, I suggest a "hub and spoke" or proper tree direction, having it so that more normal characters would generally only be capable of getting one exotic effect group due to prerequisite feats, while the bonus feats Vow of Poverty provides give vastly more because of those prerequisite feats counting for a fairly wide variety of later effects.

So while a normal character trying to get flight and self-healing would have to sacrifice basically every feat to do it, an Ascetic could grab both of those to fill the two primary gaps and still have room for the offensive leverage on the flight to cover their damage deficit, maneuverability improvements making them even more painful to deal with, alongside grabbing ability damage recovery, condition removal, and outright regeneration for total self-sufficiency, and generally because they have 10 extra feats, the entrance fee of 2-4 relatively basic feats before getting into the Big Deals is a mild roadblock where it's a crippling barrier to the "standard" character.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Malanorea
Drolyt's fix is my favorite. I've had it bookmarked for years, and I often ask for it when I play unarmed/natural attack characters.

Looking through Drolyt’s version (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?140428-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix), it looks like he’s made things easier with some simple changes to the wording.

It also looks like he’s giving Eidetic Spellcaster to wizards, with some extra spells learned—including double the usual number of new spells learned each level. That sounds like it would be an upgrade for a wizard.

.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

After reading the thread, two of the big problems appear to be that there aren't enough (good) Exalted feats to take, and that the bonuses can't replicate the utility value of items. Seems like those two could fix each other. Homebrewing some Exalted feats to represent 'miraculous' abilities like walking on water/air could fix both the problems. Perhaps the [Wild] feats would be a good place to look for balance and inspiration; Blindsight, for instance, seems like a great one to refluff as an Exalted feat. This would also help differentiate VoP characters by the feats they take.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco
Homebrewing some Exalted feats to represent 'miraculous' abilities like walking on water/air could fix both the problems. Perhaps the [Wild] feats would be a good place to look for balance and inspiration; Blindsight, for instance, seems like a great one to refluff as an Exalted feat. This would also help differentiate VoP characters by the feats they take.

A good first step might be to consolidate some lists of homebrewed Exalted feats and select which ones could be useful.

As mentioned above, Mephibosheth (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?164659-3-5-Exalted-Feats-for-Everyone!) has a list that leans on the ascetic flavor, and Talya (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?198956-Simple-Fix-for-the-Vow-of-Poverty) has at least the beginnings of a list that's more generically celestial. Are there any other lists like these?

.

[Calthropstu]

Allow magic tattoos to not count towards breaking the vow.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calthropstu
Allow magic tattoos to not count towards breaking the vow.

Is there a particular type that you meant? I think there are several different kinds of tattoos floating around.

[lord_khaine]

So again, the issue is that they're the wrong bonuses, not that you get seriously less value of them.

A solid analysis, thank you for providing it.

And its then very easy to debate if its even the wrong bonuses it gives.
Some of them are certainly very useful. Like the slotless armor bonus.

And some of the things that are missing is stuff that can be provided by party members.
Or by class features.

But i think its silly to call VoP directly cripling just because it does not cover all bases, for all classes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And its then very easy to debate if its even the wrong bonuses it gives.
Some of them are certainly very useful. Like the slotless armor bonus.Is it useful to have a slotless armor bonus if it removes your ability to use item slots altogether, though?

[Morphic tide]

A solid analysis, thank you for providing it.

And its then very easy to debate if its even the wrong bonuses it gives.
Some of them are certainly very useful. Like the slotless armor bonus.
Well, due to being Vow of Poverty, the slotlessness only really matters for class features that care for item slots like Meldshaping or the Crown spells. For those situations, though, it does pretty much crack open the intended balance point, since you get to very freely go to town on whatever you please.


And some of the things that are missing is stuff that can be provided by party members.
Or by class features.

But i think its silly to call VoP directly cripling just because it does not cover all bases, for all classes.
And, as previously mentioned, I'm pretty sure the very major bases missed with regards to mobility and recovery are specifically because they can be handled by party members and class features. The Paladin doesn't really need healing if you give them those ability score bonuses, because their features turn Charisma and/or Wisdom into healing fairly directly, since they have Lay on Hands and get the Cure line, alongside the Charisma to saves reducing what they take. The Monk only needs permission to go vertical, any straight speed bonus makes them start zipping around quite stupidly, and the AC bonus on VoP being measured for wearing a chain shirt already makes their AC bloat a wee bit. As in "can make Pit Fiends miss 3/4ths of the time", before throwing in any allied caster buffs.

And if you are the caster, like a Monk 1/Paladin 2/Druid 17, well in that particular case you just grab Serenity and enjoy having astronomical AC and saves, alongside almost on pace item number bonuses that carry into your delayed-by-three-levels Wild Shape and ignore any dispel attempts.