Countering Darkstalker feat

[Yogibear41]

Whats the best way to counter the darkstalker feat? Assume a super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hides that are more or less impossible to beat with spot or listen checks. How would say a wizard or cleric with 5th to 6th level spells be able to counter it? Or just a general way to counter it?

[Doctor Despair]

One level dip into Mindbender, take Mind Sight at level 6?

Edit: Touchsight is also viable if psionics are on the table

[Ignimortis]

Whats the best way to counter the darkstalker feat? Assume a super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hides that are more or less impossible to beat with spot or listen checks. How would say a wizard or cleric with 5th to 6th level spells be able to counter it? Or just a general way to counter it?

Detect Magic or something (Arcane Sight would be best), if your opponent wears anything magical at all and/or uses magic? There are a bunch of detection spells that don't seem to rely on actually seeing the target. True Seeing pierces all illusions, so no magic can actually beat that.

[Doctor Despair]

I suppose permancied Arcane Sight and/or Mindsight would be better than relying on the fixed duration buffs for a sentry, unless they have some reason to expect the rogue in a given time frame.

Notably, truesight is foiled by mundane disguises, or arguably illusions affected by the Invisible Spell metamagic. To normal people, you look normal, but to those with truesight, you appear as the illusion would have you appear.

[Toliudar]

Anything that takes the darkstalking character out of their element can also help. Having the destination underwater, or in a place with a lot of doors. Alarm spells can help give a general location.

IIRC, Lifesight from Libris Mortis is also useful against Darkstalker.

[Doctor Despair]

IIRC, Lifesight from Libris Mortis is also useful against Darkstalker.

For some reason, I forgot that Lifesense was a feat and not a limited duration spell. OP, you can use Necropolitan as a 0LA template to make the sentry eligible to use this feat. Technically, I don't think it lets you pinpoint them on a good hide check, but it does tell you exactly what square they're in.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lifesense in LM if you have undead creatures.

You can't hide without cover or concealment, so good lighting and not having any obstacles for cover makes hide checks automatically fail.

[Doctor Despair]

You can't hide without cover or concealment, so good lighting and not having any obstacles for cover makes hide checks automatically fail.

Huh, I wonder why that tower shield is shuffling towards me on its own... I can clearly see there's no one behind it...

[Ignimortis]

Huh, I wonder why that tower shield is shuffling towards me on its own... I can clearly see there's no one behind it...

Yeah...nobody there...it's just a shield (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecbjqk5COY0).

[Psyren]

If you're worried about Darkstalker's power, Pathfinder has a weaker version (Dampen Presence) that doesn't automatically beat scent and tremorsense that you could make available instead. The rogue can still overcome these last two via other means but those will cost additional resources.

Honestly though, if your rogue player has invested so much into sneaking that they are "unbeatable" - for the most part you should let them be. There are more than enough monsters, hazards, and other dangers that can challenge a rogue even if they can't be perceived.

[liquidformat]

Um glitterdust obviously...

[GrayDeath]

I agree with Psyren, in almost any scenario this SHOULD be unbeatable.

For the few where it isnt (fair ones, not ones where you suddenly decide so^^), I was always fond of Guard Statuews with permanent Lifesense and/or Mindsense abilities in REALLY ancient former Suoper AMgic Empire Ruins. ^^


Or you could use Malfean Stealth negation: Fireball, 2 every turn towards any area where someone could be hiding.
:P


On a sidenote: Our D&D Group is getting on our DM`s nerves with this. The worst Stealth base value (eg Fixed number +2) we ahve is 43.

Adsditionally 2 fly and are tiny, and all have Darkstalker^^

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For a manifester, not only does touchsight work, but if s/he has a psicrystal, said psicrystal qualifies for Life Sense and possibly Mindsight, as well.

[Telonius]

Some general tricks:

Dead Man's Switch. The magic trap has to sense the guard, or the fortress is alerted, the room is flooded with lava, the prisoner is dropped onto the pointy spikes, etc. If they've killed the guard, they have to be detectable, or bad stuff happens.

Wet Cement Floor. Doesn't have to be cement, specifically, but put something in the way that makes it obvious where the person is standing.

Area Effects. "Almost" counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Throw some hand grenades (or at least some Fireballs).

[tiercel]

A closed door. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)

[Doctor Despair]

A closed door. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)

To be fair, a move silently check to open/shut the door, maybe with an oil can for good measure, coupled with a silent image of a still-closed door might be within reason for a "super-optimized rogue."

[Nifft]

Trustworthy guards with high perception checks seem like a very good measure in this situation, and would be a good starting point even in a world where this feat didn't exist.

Forcing an intruder to make more skill checks to remain hidden, while opposed by your perceptive guards, who are (somehow) protected from attack until the last check or two. Structural protections, like a wall of force window where they could see you but you can't stab them, might be sufficient.

A more extreme measure might be an intelligent swarm hivemind which can perceive when someone is inside it through sense of touch, and refrains from attacking people it knows (but doesn't refrain from touching them, to ensure nobody is invisibly piggy-back riding their way in).

[Doctor Despair]

A more extreme measure might be an intelligent swarm hivemind which can perceive when someone is inside it through sense of touch, and refrains from attacking people it knows (but doesn't refrain from touching them, to ensure nobody is invisibly piggy-back riding their way in).

The swarm idea seems very strong, although I suppose one thing to check for would be whether you can tumble when hiding/moving silently, and whether the swarm would perceive someone tumbling under/through/over/around their "body" in their occupied square. You could resolve that somewhat by making it difficult terrain and having X swarms until it's unreasonable to expect someone to tumble that far, of course, assuming the use of tumble is even valid in this situation

[ExLibrisMortis]

The Nemesis feat on a ranger with Favoured Enemy (arcanists).

[Zanos]

Sense of the Dragon(Sor/Wiz 3) grants something that is effectively blindsense out to 30ft, but is not actually called that, so Darkstalker doesn't affect it. As a bonus, it is eligible for permanency.

[tiercel]

To be fair, a move silently check to open/shut the door, maybe with an oil can for good measure, coupled with a silent image of a still-closed door might be within reason for a "super-optimized rogue."

Yes, alright, though if the door is perhaps designed to make noise regardless of naturally squeaky hinges... and a silent image, while a useful cover, can't do much about the side of the door in the direction it is swinging open into... and now magic auras are being generated and illusions that can be seen through....

And, frankly, NO static defense is going to stop a sufficiently wily, well-resourced rogue. But something as common as a door can certainly slow a rogue down (to say nothing of having to check for/undo locks, check for traps), and they are cheap and plentiful. A door isn't going to matter if no one is ever around to hear or see it open anyway - the point is to give vigilant irregular patrols a chance to see something beyond "do you have Spot +80? then no."

[RSGA]

I'd just have regular locations where you have to go through an Extended Glitterdust. How much would it cost? I don't know but at once it's going to be too much (because of the prices for spells, traps, and spell-traps) and too little (because the only thing funnier than working under constant Farie Fire is working under near constant golden shimmering).

[Esprit15]

Yes, alright, though if the door is perhaps designed to make noise regardless of naturally squeaky hinges... and a silent image, while a useful cover, can't do much about the side of the door in the direction it is swinging open into... and now magic auras are being generated and illusions that can be seen through....

And, frankly, NO static defense is going to stop a sufficiently wily, well-resourced rogue. But something as common as a door can certainly slow a rogue down (to say nothing of having to check for/undo locks, check for traps), and they are cheap and plentiful. A door isn't going to matter if no one is ever around to hear or see it open anyway - the point is to give vigilant irregular patrols a chance to see something beyond "do you have Spot +80? then no."

A bell on the opposite side of the door from where the rogue will be entering.

[Melcar]

Huh, I wonder why that tower shield is shuffling towards me on its own... I can clearly see there's no one behind it...

Actually, the towershield becomes hidden as well... :smallbiggrin:

[Nifft]

The swarm idea seems very strong, although I suppose one thing to check for would be whether you can tumble when hiding/moving silently, and whether the swarm would perceive someone tumbling under/through/over/around their "body" in their occupied square. You could resolve that somewhat by making it difficult terrain and having X swarms until it's unreasonable to expect someone to tumble that far, of course, assuming the use of tumble is even valid in this situation Why would Tumble matter at all?


Actually, the towershield becomes hidden as well... :smallbiggrin: You can technically make an object permanently Invisible.

Not sure if anyone's done that with a tower shield yet.

[Doctor Despair]

Why would Tumble matter at all?


DC 25 Tumble check to pass through a square occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around an opponent), which seems to imply you wouldn't be touching them. If you can tumble with a simultaneous hide check, both as a part of movement, then Darkstalker would protect you from the swarm's blindsense, too.

[Spellweaver]

Well, if your Assume a super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hides that are more or less impossible to beat with spot or listen checks.

Then you are also assuming a super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous things to counter that, right?

Because if your talking only 12th or so, the super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hide...can't be "that" high.

There is a whole list of divination spells that can still detect the target: Detect Hostile Intent, Detect Alignment, Detect Weaponry, Detect Metal and Minerals, Detect Thoughts, and Detect Threats.

If that super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hide is using illusions like invisibility then see invisibility. detect illusions, and Truesight can help.

And if the super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hide is using magic, then all the ways against that work: dispel magic and anti magic.

Corpse Candle, from the Spell Compendium is the best: A corpse candle illuminates hidden, ethereal, and invisible beings and items, all of which become faintly visible as wispy outlines.

The feat Earth Sense lets to detect, but not pin point a creature on the ground.

If you know the super optimized rogue/spellcaster with ridiculous hide there are spells like Locate Creature that can be used to find them.

A decoy works great to get the hiding foe to reveal themselves. And even if they do hide and move tricks, they likely won't get too far away, so area attacks work great.

Body guards, especially very fast moving ones with grapple, can work great. They just need to be nearby, maybe even invisible, with a ready action. Elementals, elemental swarms, energons, or a gargantuan fiendish monstrous centipede could work.

[Nifft]

DC 25 Tumble check to pass through a square occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around an opponent), which seems to imply you wouldn't be touching them. If you can tumble with a simultaneous hide check, both as a part of movement, then Darkstalker would protect you from the swarm's blindsense, too.

Tumble denies them the opportunity to hit you with an extra attack.

Where do you see it denying them the ability to feel you brushing against them, or even pushing through them?

[Doctor Despair]

Tumble denies them the opportunity to hit you with an extra attack.

Where do you see it denying them the ability to feel you brushing against them, or even pushing through them?


25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

Notably, the tumble text does not say through the opponent, provides specific examples for modes where you circumvent the opponent, and does not say that you touch the opponent. When you can find text that suggests that going around an enemy, or under an enemy, or over an enemy involves touching them, then Tumble will not function to circumvent a swarm of sufficiently small size. Otherwise, the specific text saying that you go over, under, or around the opponent (rather than through an opponent, pushing, shoving, etc) should be sufficient to say that the tumbler did not necessarily touch them.

[Nifft]

should be sufficient to say that the tumbler did not necessarily touch them.

I'm asking why he asserted that the rules allowed him to DENY touching them.

The rules seem to say no such thing, and you're arguing in a direction which isn't particularly relevant either way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The buzzing bee spell (Spell Compendium) works to alert others, if you can target the one who hides, whether directly or through a trap or a spell storing weapon or whatever.

Bigby's helping hand works so long as you know something is there so long as you have some sort of description, as well.

[Doctor Despair]

I'm asking why he asserted that the rules allowed him to DENY touching them.

The rules seem to say no such thing, and you're arguing in a direction which isn't particularly relevant either way.

The rogue doesn't touch another creature unless the rules say they are touching that creature. The text of tumble specifically seems to imply they are not touching. However, there is something referenced here that could be worth referring to:


Designated Exceptions
Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities.


For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity.... Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking.

It seems, at best, unclear. I don't think there's enough rulestext to suggest a rogue couldn't tumble over a swarm of rats or centipedes, as their vertical reach wasn't specified. A swarm of flying creatures would presumably be capable of occupying the full 10x10 cube, so I could see a DM ruling that you couldn't tumble through it (see the designated exceptions rule), although I could also see a DM ruling that, again, you tumbled around or over or under the swarm in a brief gap. If you have a swarm of flying creatures that have perfect flight, you could have them hover equidistant from one another in a grid of sorts, I suppose, to make absolutely clear that there is no possibility for such a gap.

[Nifft]

The rogue doesn't touch another creature unless the rules say they are touching that creature. If the rules don't say a thing, then the DM must adjudicate.

It's absolutely wrong to make assumptions based on what the rules don't say.


Doesn't really matter, though, because I found some Tumble rules text which explicitly involves touching:



Climb Vertical Surface

The character can climb up to 20 feet (as part of normal movement) by jumping and bouncing off walls, trees, or similar vertical surfaces. The character must have at least two vertical surfaces to bounce off, and the two must be within 10 feet of each other.


There we go. Tumble does not deny touching, and can in fact require it.

[vasilidor]

True sight fails against non magical stealth. if the person is wearing a cowl of warding true sight is taken off the board entirely. so with that in mind, you need to find ways of either denying stealth via clear open fields or finding ways to rack up spot and listen (there are items that can do this). if you can spam something like glitterdust that can be useful as it applies penalties to stealth.
to be honest though in the arms race of stealth dark stalker is entirely necessary, as there are monsters that can shut down stealth entirely without it.

[Nifft]

to be honest though in the arms race of stealth dark stalker is entirely necessary, as there are monsters that can shut down stealth entirely without it.

It can be a useful tool for PCs, which I think is how it was presented in Lords of Madness.


Hmm, how about replacing Trapfinding with Darkstalker? (i.e. let everyone with Search find traps, but give Rogues and friends a special bonus for sneaking.)

[vasilidor]

at this point it may be prudent to curtail more stealth items.

[icefractal]

There are some things that an organization can do to be less vulnerable to extreme stealth. Since this also provides some benefit against scrying, teleportation, etc., it's useful to do even when not specifically worried about ultra-stealth types.

1) Silent Communication
Assume that you're being watched, even inside your most secure vaults, and use methods of communication that can't be so easily eavesdropped. Telepathy is great if you can get it, but even something as simple as wearing long, loose sleeves, doing a covered handshake, and using tactile sign language can work. Just for sensitive information, not for everything unless it's convenient to.

2) People Are Your Biggest Asset
Given that physical barriers provide only limited protection against serious foes, it's better to centralize your resources in the direct control of your strongest agents, and make sure they're tough enough to survive an ambush. Have bodyguards rather than external guards. For the rest, go with basic, expendable goons, on the assumption that they're almost certainly going to by bypassed or taken out in an ambush.

3) Pockets Instead of Vaults
Whenever possible, keep your really valuable stuff directly on the person of your strongest agents rather than in a too-easily entered vault or safe. Spells that turn items into tattoos are ideal, but a portable hole worn wrapped around the torso, or even the mundane smuggler style for smaller items, are options. If something is too big to store this way, guard it 24/7, preferably with guards that are chained to it.

Will this make you immune to heisting? No, but at least they'll have to face active resistance, and you won't be using a lot of resources on things that end up irrelevant.

Also, on a metagame level, this means that most of the many foes the players skip will be straight-from-the-MM goons that the GM didn't waste much time on.

[vasilidor]

another thing you could try is custom magic items to boost spot and listen checks. this would be a natural counter to stealth, but not everyone would use it.
consider a lich with craft magic item (a thing liches require) and the fact they get racial bonuses to perception and stealth skills. they can further augment themselves with buffed up versions of eyes of the eagle or similar.