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Lord Tataraus
2007-10-28, 09:44 PM
I'm sure this was asked at some point (though maybe not). Is there a good system for a werewolf vs. vampire rpg? I've heard good things about the white wolf World of Darkness rpg. But it seems like Werewolf and Vampire are completely different and not necessarily compatible. Of course cost is something of an issue, I don't want to buy three books (like it seems I need for WoD).

Thanks ahead of time.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-28, 09:46 PM
Erm. Vampire: the Requiem and Werewolf: the Forsaken are completely compatible. Vampire: the Masquerade and Werewolf: the Apocalypse really weren't, but the trainwreck that was Old World of Darkness is long dead now.

EvilElitest
2007-10-28, 09:47 PM
I'm sure this was asked at some point (though maybe not). Is there a good system for a werewolf vs. vampire rpg? I've heard good things about the white wolf World of Darkness rpg. But it seems like Werewolf and Vampire are completely different and not necessarily compatible. Of course cost is something of an issue, I don't want to buy three books (like it seems I need for WoD).

Thanks ahead of time.

Sorry, i know very little about ether
from,
EE

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-28, 09:48 PM
Sorry, i know very little about ether
from,
EE

Then... why did you post? :smallconfused:

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-28, 09:50 PM
World of Darkness is pretty good but been a few years.

Incorporating Vampires and Werewolves is doable but usually the campaign took a bent towards Vampires or Werewolves and used the others as monsters mostly as each pretty much loathed the others. I prefered the Vampire bent with the House Gangreal vampire aspects.

A lot of the books have a nice discount on line at Amazon.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-28, 09:56 PM
Then... why did you post? :smallconfused:

True.


Erm. Vampire: the Requiem and Werewolf: the Forsaken are completely compatible. Vampire: the Masquerade and Werewolf: the Apocalypse really weren't, but the trainwreck that was Old World of Darkness is long dead now.

Ah. I guess I was thinking of the older versions then. I have not played any WoD version, but have been impressed by what people say about it. Though from what I've heard werewolf is more combat while vampire is more intrigue, so it seems to not work well together. Also, I'm confused about the books. What would I need? Vampire: the Requiem and Werewolf: the Forsaken I assume, but do I need a core book? It sort of seemed like I only need the specific books.

Another question, what sort of system is nWoD? I have gathered it is some sort of skill-based, but how much so? The skill-based systems I am most familiar with are Cyberpunk 2020 and Mutants and Masterminds 2e, how close is nWoD's system?

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-28, 09:58 PM
You'd need the core rulebook. In the new World of Darkness, Werewolf, Vampire and Mage are basically sourcebooks. I'd suggest buying the box set, if you can find it; four books for the price of three isn't bad.

Yes, Werewolf is mainly combat, and Vampire is mainly political intrigue (and Mage is mainly philosophy). But a Vampire, properly built, can go toe to toe with a werewolf, and a werewolf can intrigue it up with the best vampires with a little effort.

horseboy
2007-10-28, 10:01 PM
For old editions, the mechanics are compatible, so technically you could (and we did) go at it all the time. Then they "unofficially" officially answered the questions for cross combat in the Vampire: The Dark Ages book.

Haven't played the nWoD.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-28, 10:03 PM
Check out the 16 meg free sample play pdf at World of Darkness 176 page pdf should answer a lot of your question:

http://download.white-wolf.com/download/download.php?file_id=213

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-28, 10:10 PM
Check out the 16 meg free sample play pdf at World of Darkness 176 page pdf should answer a lot of your question:

http://download.white-wolf.com/download/download.php?file_id=213

Wow, thanks! I've scanned through it some and it seems pretty in depth. I like the dots system, easy to fill in and keep track of.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-28, 10:17 PM
Glad it helped. Have fun gaming.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 02:14 AM
Yes, Werewolf is mainly combat, and Vampire is mainly political intrigue (and Mage is mainly philosophy). But a Vampire, properly built, can go toe to toe with a werewolf, and a werewolf can intrigue it up with the best vampires with a little effort.

I never played any Werewolf really (only Vampire), but the way it was explained to me was basically that a neonate vampire would pretty much get shredded by a starting werewolf, while a really powerful, low-generation vampire could pretty much shred any werewolf. Basically, werewolves started out more powerful for combat but peaked sooner, was how it was explained to me.

None of that mattered since most of my characters couldn't fight anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: And as for Mage, from what I was given to understand, mages had a lot of weird problems with their magic and paradox, but if they were powerful enough, they could basically turn vampires into lawn chairs if they really wanted to. Proving that, once again, the wizard wins.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-31, 03:25 AM
I'm sure this was asked at some point (though maybe not). Is there a good system for a werewolf vs. vampire rpg?

It depends what you want with that. Actually OWOD (which is frequently available on eBay and so forth at a bargain, and is still frequently played by many) can help you out as well.

If you want the werewolves as PCs and the vampires as your enemies, that works. The PCs will kick their ass once they get them into combat, but the vampires will use guile to avoid that. Makes for an interesting hunt campaign. Any number of combat-based RPGs will also work.

If you want the vampires as PCs and the werewolves as your enemies, it works equally well, only backwards. The NPCs will kill them if they get them, so the vamps get to evade them. Makes for an interesting stealth campaign. A mystic setting like the Over The Edge RPG will also work.

If you want the vamps and wolves both as PCs, you have some explaining to do because they tend not to like each other much (even, but somewhat less so, in NWOD), but it's certainly possible with a good background. The setting of Dark Alliance: Vancouver explicitly does this.

If you want to run vamp-vs-wolf PVP, well, most RPGs don't do PVP all that well to begin with, and neither does OWOD.

Alternatively, buy GURPS (although yes, you'd need several books) which is allegedly balanced for this stuff.

Winterwind
2007-10-31, 04:11 AM
If you want the vamps and wolves both as PCs, you have some explaining to do because they tend not to like each other much (even, but somewhat less so, in NWOD), but it's certainly possible with a good background. The setting of Dark Alliance: Vancouver explicitly does this.An easy way to accomplish this is to start the game before the werewolves discover they are werewolves and the vampires get bitten and made into vampires, and have the adventure start with all PCs being human. That way, they can befriend each other before they become werewolves and vampires respectively, and also (since they did not grow up in vampire/werewolf society) do not know they are supposed to dislike each other.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-31, 06:50 AM
I always really loved the Werewolf game, not for the combat but for the running inhuman spirituallity theme. Ok, they made it a little monochromatic in the books but we always had loads of fun running around in the spirit world, talking to the spirit of left-handedness, or convincing our car to run without petrol, or awakening randomly chosen garages just to see what'd happen... then you get to do fun things like go on pilgramidge to talk to your god, only to discover that they're only really interested in gnawing on a big bone infrount of the raoring fire:smallannoyed:

And any DM that can't get a kick out of a trip to the dream zone, where your own mind is essentially the landscape, with a pack of teenage werewolves just isn't trying

Longshanks
2007-10-31, 07:18 AM
You may want to try BESM (Big Eyes Small Mouth). It's a little involved at first but once you master character creation you can make any sort of vampire and/or werewolf that you want.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-31, 08:30 AM
It depends what you want with that. Actually OWOD (which is frequently available on eBay and so forth at a bargain, and is still frequently played by many) can help you out as well.

If you want the werewolves as PCs and the vampires as your enemies, that works. The PCs will kick their ass once they get them into combat, but the vampires will use guile to avoid that. Makes for an interesting hunt campaign. Any number of combat-based RPGs will also work.

If you want the vampires as PCs and the werewolves as your enemies, it works equally well, only backwards. The NPCs will kill them if they get them, so the vamps get to evade them. Makes for an interesting stealth campaign. A mystic setting like the Over The Edge RPG will also work.

If you want the vamps and wolves both as PCs, you have some explaining to do because they tend not to like each other much (even, but somewhat less so, in NWOD), but it's certainly possible with a good background. The setting of Dark Alliance: Vancouver explicitly does this.

If you want to run vamp-vs-wolf PVP, well, most RPGs don't do PVP all that well to begin with, and neither does OWOD.

Alternatively, buy GURPS (although yes, you'd need several books) which is allegedly balanced for this stuff.

No PVP, its either the group are vampires or they are all werewolves. It turns out that the group wants to be vampires, but they are a small faction that is mostly focused on gaining control of all of the covens. So the war will be happening around them and just complicate matters, though it might actually help them as well (Underworld anyone?).

One more question, how does WoD, or any other system mentioned as well, handle non-wolf lycanthropes? Such as tiger, bear, ape, rat, etc. If they don't have any specific rules for other weres, how easy would it be to incorporate them?

Kurald Galain
2007-10-31, 08:53 AM
One more question, how does WoD, or any other system mentioned as well, handle non-wolf lycanthropes? Such as tiger, bear, ape, rat, etc. If they don't have any specific rules for other weres, how easy would it be to incorporate them?

As part of the OWOD storyline, the werewolves held a genocidal massacre against all other shapeshifters, several thousand years ago.

They weren't entirely succesful, but they are good at hunting, so all others are effectively in hiding. But there is a series of Changing Breed sourcebooks, which covers werecats, bears, ravens, spiders, jackals, sharks, rats, snakes, and dinosaurs. They all have their own backstory, powers, and mythology. Most of them have a passionate hatred for werewolves.

"Werecats", incidentally, include tigers, lions, and so forth. Were-apes are actually really extinct, of the "no, we really mean it this time" kind.

Ssiauhll
2007-10-31, 09:00 AM
No PVP??? Thats what these games are all about. No seriously every of that sort, especially vampire games are a rush to see who can gank whom first.

I recommend reading both versions of the Wod books. The newer 2.0 games are more complex rules wise, but the monsters are more balanced, and less munchkiny. That said shape shifters are weirder experience in the newer game.

One other thing going for the games is the potential lethality of the old system. A lucky stab with a knife could (potentially) kill most any character. This was because any extra successes with the to hit roll were carried over to the damage pool.

I would talk to the players about PVP issues, because they almost certainly will come up unless you take a very active role to prevent it.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-10-31, 12:31 PM
d20 modern can be made to work for this as well, but World of Darkness will need less homebrewing. d20 modern has ported versions of the D&D vampires and lycanthropes but they don't neccesaraly work in a non-fantasy world. BESM and GURPS can do it as well, but only because they don't try and do anything. I haven't read the new edition of BESM yet though.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-31, 12:34 PM
No PVP??? Thats what these games are all about. No seriously every of that sort, especially vampire games are a rush to see who can gank whom first.

I recommend reading both versions of the Wod books. The newer 2.0 games are more complex rules wise, but the monsters are more balanced, and less munchkiny. That said shape shifters are weirder experience in the newer game.

One other thing going for the games is the potential lethality of the old system. A lucky stab with a knife could (potentially) kill most any character. This was because any extra successes with the to hit roll were carried over to the damage pool.

I would talk to the players about PVP issues, because they almost certainly will come up unless you take a very active role to prevent it.

I guess I should rephrase it as: "the players will start off as allies, or more specifically, underlings of one particular player." So PvP may come up and I expect it (and might encourage it) definitely considering what the leader is trying to do. I guess it will help a bit to explain the starting scenario.

First of all, I have drawn up a few diagrams and such explaining th e hierarchy of vampire society (I'm making my own, though I expect WoD to be similar). Also note that this is heavily influenced by both the Blade movie trilogy and Underworld (1 and 2). Basically, there are 13 main houses and about 50 or so lesser covens. Each house has an internal hierarchy that is pretty much uniform, the Lord of the house or Governor of th coven is a natural vampire (i.e. born a vampire) and owns at least one large company in the human world to support the house or coven. These companies are usually arms manufacturers, pharmaceuticals companies, or one of the various government contracted research institutions, though two of the largest houses own the original two Swiss banks (rival banks of course). The leader of the party will be a Governor of one of the poorer covens, but this is more of an advantage since no one will pay much attention to them at first. Under the Governor there are two Death Dealers (expert werewolf assassins) and a hand full of nobles (natural vampires) as well as three or four squads of security (one captain and ~20 soldiers). Under the nobles are about ~100 or so 'commoners' who are basically the pool of turned vampires and under those are the servants, vampires turned by the commoners. Of course the Governor and possibly a few nobles have familiars and mostly all the nobles and the Governor have human slaves and there is one werewolf slave (he is not powerful enough to have too many werewolf slaves). This will be a pretty standard setup for all houses and covens, though the houses would have a few hundred nobles and thousands of commoners.

For the actual senario, the Governor is a Cthulhu cultists (seriously, just stick with me) who will attempt to summon Cthulhu to end the world (out of spite of being the lowliest of vampire Governors). So he will mostly be sending minions off to collect the items he needs, confiding only in his closet and most trusted allies, until he can summon Cthulhu near the end of the game. All the while he must dodge growing interest in his activities as well as the growing werewolf threat (how are beginning to turn the tide as they ally with the other lycanthropes). If he plays it right, the vampires won't realize what he is doing until too late, otherwise he will be in lots of trouble as his underlings turn against him. Also, if he completely ignores the war, the werewolves might win before he can summon Cthulhu :smalltongue:

Renegade Paladin
2007-10-31, 12:42 PM
You'd need the core rulebook. In the new World of Darkness, Werewolf, Vampire and Mage are basically sourcebooks. I'd suggest buying the box set, if you can find it; four books for the price of three isn't bad.

Yes, Werewolf is mainly combat, and Vampire is mainly political intrigue (and Mage is mainly philosophy). But a Vampire, properly built, can go toe to toe with a werewolf, and a werewolf can intrigue it up with the best vampires with a little effort.
Bah. I'm not interested in nWoD until they bring Hunters into it. :smalltongue:

And the old World of Darkness games could mesh fairly well. The various games aren't all balanced against each other combat-wise by any means (though Vampire and Werewolf are actually pretty close), but I'm playing a Hunter (mechanically weakest of the lot) in a crossover campaign right now and managing to hold my own through focusing on mundane skills, having my Firearms ability maxed through the roof, and relying on a pump-action shotgun. Sure, a werewolf will tear me to shreds, but I never let it get that far.

Mojo_Rat
2007-10-31, 12:43 PM
In the new Wod System (requiem forsaken etc) there are technically no non wolf Were's.

In the new game the were rats are covered by a spirit type tyrying to gnaw at reality. Similarly with spiders theya re a monster type for the Uratha (new term for Werewolves) to oppose.

However alot of other traditional 'shape changers' are probly covered by some of the other systems like changeling which even uses kitsune in one of its examples. So other shape changers exist they are just not on the same thematic as the Forsaken.